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Hi!
>>vI also found the off course interesting as she was so convinced she was right
Yes! And that is not something she usually does.
Hendersonville is SO NICE!!! Enjoy 🙂 I am jealous LOL!!!!
Hi! Just thought of this for NADAC -they allow a zip lock bag of treats in your pocket, I think. So it would be like combining step 2 (e.pty hands, which he has seen in training) and step 3 (in and out) – you can show it to him, stuff it in your pocket right before you go in (tap it to remind him in the 10 foot No Cookie Zone lol) and then run with it, delivering the treats afterwards when you arrive 10 feet away from the ring. Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyThanks for reminding me – I thought I sent an invoice but maybe it went to the wrong email address? I just resent one to your gmail 🙂 Thanks!
TracyGreat job with your standard run!
For JWW – I think working through the FEO/training in the ring levels will really help – in FAST & T2B you can make up your own JWW courses so you don’t put him on contacts (an CPE/USDAA/UKI if is is local). So yes, running with a toy but also then fading it with steps 2 and 3.The other thing to work on is the different levels of Find My Face – the opening was great here and he lost focus and couldn’t recover when you had a slight handling bobble and had to call him back. The Find My Face games applied to course work in training will really help keep him engaged even if there is a bobble. And JWW is a place where there might be bobbles, because there are no contacts to stop or catch up 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I can’t get my previous thread to load anymore. Clearly agility U thinks it is too long :). I have been struggling for about a week, so I am starting a new thread.Are you using an iPad or iPhone? When the iOs products update, it takes a while for iOs (Apple) and YouTube (Google) to talk nicely to each other especially on higher volume threads. We have talked to WordPress about it and there is nothing we can figure out because Apple and Google do what they want, when they want. Very terrier-like LOL! So a new thread works best.
Looks like the trial went really well!!! You did a lot “for real” and she seemed to do really well – her runs here looked lovely like her runs in the turf facility or at seminars, and better than the runs in the barn with the distractions! YAY!
>>A cattle dog ran up to Lanna on Sunday the first run. She growled so was clearly uncomfortable with the encounter. That’s not her usual when approached by a new dog so I don’t know if there was something about the approach/dog or if it was a leave me alone I am doing the stuff.>>
In that heightened state of arousal right before a run, my guess is she was both uncomfortable being charged (the cattle dog came in fast & hard) and also, a bit of ‘leave me alone I am doing the thing’. She was very resilient though!
On the first video – Leash runner perfectly placed to obscure most of the run but what I did see looked GREAT – focused, connected, FAST!
2nd run – also lovely! Note how she is quiet and looking at line when you are connected with low arms. When you point ahead and try to use an arm to connect? Bark bark bark, look at you. She eventually does find the line but I think she is telling you that with the low arms, she can see awesome connection and it is better handling. High arms obscure her view so it frustrates her a bit.
3rd run – the real view! Yay! Also a good run, really connected!!!
>>She was still very looky at the start but ran well. >>
it is possible that it is too much to look at you during the start line moments – I have seen that in a LOT of dogs especially BCs and BC mixes. She might not be looking at stuff, more like she can’t look at you in that moment. My BorderJack and BorderStaffy could never look at me at the start line, and it was fine.
That off course WAS interesting! I wonder if she read your shoulder turn as a ‘pull and send’ to the tunnel? She seemed very convinced before, during and after LOL!! At least it was a good opportunity to practice a bit of “find my face’ and happy fixing, she was fine with it other than feedback in barking form haha!!
And ending day with the NFC run was smart.
I think you will have fun with Kerry!! I wish it was closer, there are still spots! And time off after that is good. Where will you be in NC?
Tracy
>>Last day! We survived!
Huzzah! I knew you would have a great weekend!
>>Interestingly, he wasn’t as high as he is in trials but I could really get him into the proper state by running Callie for just a second.>>
And it also is a goo demonstration about how enagement and focus can often come from *increased* arousal! “Conventional wisdom” thinks we should calm the dogs but science tells us to embrace increased arousal.
>>He did get some distraction with the ring barrier- chasing the movement of the other dogs but called off when called.
Which is why every agility dog should actually start with flyball foundation classes, because that way they will enter agility with zero distracton issues. But again, the agility community thinks I am insane to even suggest that LOL!
>> The last run, we kind of went a bit overboard on it because another dog had just gotten chased.
Probably a good example of depletion, especially at the end o fa long hot weekend.
>>Our areas of disconnect were in the spaces in between.>>
Like when you were talking to the instructor? or stopping to reinforce? Or literally between obstacles while running?
>>I’m really glad I got John because I tried to chicken out of running in the afternoon and he encouraged me to keep going.
I got to co-teach at a camp with John a few years back and really enjoyed him!
>>I was feeling super emotional all weekend because I really don’t give either of us enough credit for the work we’ve put in and can mostly only see the things that don’t go perfect.
Now I need work with both you and Annette to work on controlling all the feelings >>There are a lot of emotions and resilience that go into this thing we call dog sportsing! It is heavy on the mental game – I highly recommend that everyone does a sport-specific mental prep program and a life-specific therapy program LOL!! turns out they were very much the same 🙂
T
Good morning! Lots of great work here!
<>>I did a good bit more of pattern games upon arrival and for his first set of tricks as he was having a hard time doing some initially. He settled in after a chance to take in the environment and later was offering some.Oerfect! And good for you for noticing that and helping him get settled in.
Really lovely run! He toally did smoke you on the opening line 🙂 I am not sure if he was running off when he ran past the a-frame, or was just driving a line… but there was no actual line LOL!! He came right back when you called him and then he was perfect!!!
>He had good engagement when I took off the leash >>
YES!!!
>> This run felt really good and he was charging ahead taking obstacles so seemed a little better than class as I can’t usually get that much distance.>>
I agree with your choice to help him at the tire start by not leading out and the DW as teh 2nd obstacle was great in a way but hard because he smoked you LOL!!! Hopefully future runs will have no tire at the start and you can lead out a bit 🙂
He seemed like a really happy little dude, very fast, very engaged and relaxed too!
On the gamblers run:
>> We had to wait for the course change while in the ring so I bent down and he snuggled into my legs for a chill out session and he did a few tricks.>>
Great!!! You can also hang out outside the ring with cookies while they change the course – I like to go in only after everything is done so I don’t get hung up waiting there for hours LOL!
>> He stayed when I took off the harness but then he headed off to some distractions on the side of the ring with some dogs. So to get him back I took out the clam and just started the run. He ran well but did run off to the side again as a little dog was right by the ring near the extra obstacles.>>
If you turn up the sound, there was some seriously loud alarm barking outside the ring while that was going on – my guess is he was distracted by that! Good job getting him going! The rest was great 🙂
>>One of my trainers was the gate steward so she warned the scribe he might try to run out or over but he’s a totally different dog after this class>>
Teehee 🙂 He didn’t seem to even look at the ring crew! You have done your homework and he is definitely looking fabulous!
>> It was interesting to see how well the dogs doing FEO ran compared to the others, and how happy the handler and dog walked away afterwards.
Excellent observation! I agree – FEO helps teach dog AND handler how to be happy in the ring 🙂 Everyone has goals that are NOT Q goals, and is more relaxed and that transfers nicely even to ‘real’ runs.
>> I heard him debating whether to reward her afterwards and I’m thinking don’t punish further.
I agree with you 1000% . Plus, withholding reward afterwards won’t have any impact on teeter performance, which it will affect how the dog feels about the entire environment!
>> No, it’s gamblers and he might get a Q so why waste the money.
Very interesting observation about the money! I think it is a great use of money (especially with the relatively inexpensive USDAA and UKI) because when I spend the big bucks (AKC, or big events) I will know that my dog is happy and ready 🙂
>Not sure how his class will be since it’s likely to storm during the day and rain for class but he will like the 69 temp. We might be inside so he’s way better and I can run weaves.
These cooler temps are SO nice!!!
>>Next, I will be able to assess with NADAC on Saturday 5-28 at a place he runs frequently. This will be more challenging so we’ll hangout in the 10 foot legal area. I signed him up for 4 runs as it’s double runs in Standard and Touch and Go. I’ve never done Touch and Go but it seemed to have his favorite obstacles and I don’t have to worry about the discriminations. At least right now the forecast is showing even cooler temps.
This all sounds great – Touch and Go is a-frame, dog walk & tunnels, from what I remember. No Tunneler runs? Tunnelers is the greatest class ever invented, according to my dogs hahaha!
For the 10 foot rule: I believe you can hang out past that with your cookies until the very last minute before heading in – you don’t want to get caught in the Cookie-Free Zone too early 🙂 And keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
Catching up here, sounds like your day turned out well!!
Thanks for the maps – there are some trends that make me twitchy, like tiny distances and also those table-jump discriminations (ewww and also right near the ring gating), Also, I hope the ring crew was not where they were marked on the course map (5 feet from the weave entry in Novice JWW).I think you will enjoy the spacing and lines at the Get Rev’d UKI!!! Not sure who is judging but Rosanne will only bring in good designers.
Tracy
Hi! I think it sounds like a really good day! On the video – this looked great! I think you were probably in the ring a bit too early, it was almost 40 seconds on the video before you could start – but I gotta say that the work you’ve done while your classes were walking serviced your REALLY well here, because she was NOT perturbed by doing goofy tricks while people wandered all around, changing bars, talking, etc. You probably asked her if she was ready a little too much at the line hahaha because she almost ripped out of your hands. And the part of the course I saw looked good!!!! Yay!!!
I’d say it is a super successful day in the ring with her. How did the rest of the run go on the video?
Tracy
Hi! I am glad the run went well! Do you have video of the run? I’d like to compare it to the start from the fun run in April.
On this video here, I think you were too “all business” as you brought her to the line – she was engaged but not quite “high” enough, which is why she had trouble with the line up: she was doing it, but not doing it quite right which indicates a lower state of arousal in that sea of distractions 🙂Outside the ring, she did not like it when you pushed her back a bit – note how she stayed away and did not offer coming towards you to continue to play. Good to know! She might like it at home, but not at trials, and that is perfectly fine 🙂 So outside the ring, you can move back from her more so she moves into you – barking on cue, chasing you a bit, chasing the tug, etc.
Then when it is her turn in the ring: enter and go to the line with more energy and engagement, talking to her, jogging in, asking for an easy trick, etc – don’t walk in and you don’t even need to take the time to close the ring gate behind you 🙂 That added energy will keep her really engaged as you go to the line.>> where Char did speak on the startline. She really had trouble with her “middle” position. Do you think I should just let her line-up by my side?
I think if she is more engaged at the line, the middle position will be easy for her. But if you ask her to do it and she can’t, but she offers lining up at your side? Go with it 🙂
Now about the barking – I would ask for it as you arrive at the start line, before you ask her to line up. The barking will increase arousal and engagement even more. Once she is in the stay, though, we want to be very predictable and the next thing should be a release and not a bark cue – she did bark but she was totally surprised by the cue in that moment LOL!!Are you running today too? Let me know how it goes!
TracyGood morning!
Sounds like another great day, with some really useful info! So, turns out, that Fever likes the busy ‘trial’ environment and it pumps him up in a good way – that is great and also happy-making because it implies a positive conditioned emotional response and not a negative/stressy one.To look at it from an outside context: in quiet classes, CB is good at flyball but a bit slower and also more likely to visit girl dogs in between his runs. But at a tournament? BRING IT, BISHES! Much faster and doesn’t even look at the other dogs: because the environment pumps him up and helps bring him into that optimal state of arousal for engagement and ‘work’.
And of course add in all the games and training he knows to that mix, and things turn out really well.
Seems like Fever is turning out the same way: too quiet? Lower state of arousal, which makes engagement harder because distractions in the environment become more noticeable (sounds, smells, etc). In a busier environment? The environment brings him up higher, so he is less likely to notice the other things – and he is more likely to produce trained behaviors (agilities).
Add a little Zoloft to the mix? Yes please, life is good. And he will process things differently with the Zoloft on the scene, and you will continue to see changes in the next 7 week as it balances out.
This is good! And it can be emotionally challenging for us as dog mommas, I totally get it!!!!! Frustration is real and also your amygdala goes into ‘fire alarm’ mode of all the things that could go wrong. So my job now is to remind you to be a scientist, be a trainer, be an observer – tell your amygdala to eff off and let you cognitive brain take over (long exhales help me when my amygdala fire alarm is going off, as well as recognizing that it is my amygdala and not actual reality: the amygdala can sometimes be a lying sack of poo!!!)
Your cognitive brain can make the good decisions and work through things (or choose to NOT run, because that is valid sometimes too!) and you will feel good about these decisions, rather than stressed or frustrated. I totally understand exactly what the Pavlov (amygdala) versus Skinner (cognitive, pre-frontal cortex I think?) issues in our human heads, which helps me turn off the amygdala fire alarm in those training moments to make good decisions for the dog without getting frustrated, if that makes sense?
It is never helpful to to tell someone to calm down, don’t get frustrated, etc, because those are all completely valid emotions and I totally relate because I feel those too! I have found it helpful to recognize where those feelings come from (simply notice them) and so those feelings won’t drive your decisions and you will also feel a lot better in the moment. When frustration or anxiety bubbles up for me in those situations, I notice them, recognize them, ask myself if there is a true emergency or if my lizard brain is just having a moment 🙂 All of that helps put them away and move forward without the frustration and anxiety (therapeutic practices for humans work GREAT in dog training too!!!!!!!)
Let me know if that makes sense!Do you have another day of camp today? Sounds like he is doing well!!!!!!!! And yes, you can totally edit some footage if you want when you are rested.
Tracy
Good morning!
I think these runs went really well!
>> In the standard run I did our engagement at the startline and then started running. Not sure why she turned to look the other way – did I take too long to start running?
That is hard to know, I think maybe it is a bit of a reflexive response (turning to look away on the start line) but she was great when you took off! Yay!
>>Do you think the engagement at the start line was weak?
Maybe? But you might also need to get her more engaged outside the ring so it bubbles over to the start line: barking, doing tricks, tugging, etc.
>>She definitely felt some pressure in the ring on this run which resulted in her leaving me but she did come back and recovers. I think this stress came as a result of the following: the judge was this big guy and he was very close when I held her on the teeter (probably too long of a hold), then I set the wrong line and she went off course. >>
It might have started with the long teeter hold (no need to hold it that long with a giant male judge stalking you) but I think it was mainly a combination of 3 things: not cuing the line to the table, the obstacle you wanted was the table (ewwww) with you trying to fix the error without any motion – and all of this was happening while you were facing the exit gate area and the crowd. I will go on the record to stay that this is kind of a lame challenge for novice dogs (ok, any dogs): the wingless and table are about 4 or 5 feet apart? Ewwwww. Add in a big guy counting. And placing it at the ring gate is not a fan favorite either – so if something goes wrong and feel the need to fix something? Don’t do it as a stop and definitely don’t do it to a table, where she has to be stationary and look around. Keep moving!
And if you see a lame-o challenge like this in a really difficult location? Skip and and run past it. Her engagement and happiness is more important than a table!
>>She started to come back and then I think she got worried and left. I got her back and she was able to recover and finished well. I could see that when I cue’d the weaves her step picked up and she accelerated. I think I need to do more work on having a Judge in the ring.>>
Yes, she got going again when she moved away from the exit gate and you got back to running (not standing still, facing her, and trying to get her on the table which probably doesn’t have a ton of value to begin with, as compared to the weaves or DW). Yes – have a judge in the ring! And have sequences go towards the exit gate and all that, and bring up the value of the table with reinforcement. And you can also recognize a situation on course that will be bad for her (stop on teeter, strange jump/table distraction, male judge following her, all of this facing the crowd) – and simply make a better line for her for now.
If memory serves, an off course is allowed in AKC Novice Standard (this is novice, yes?) and so you can set up a flowing course to the jump then run to the table, facing away from the crowd, and still get a Q. Or, skip it entirely because there was too much potential for something to go wrong, mentally, for her.
>>The jumpers run, I started with the engagement and then asked for the line up without the sit which worked really nicely.
I think this is my favorite start from you and Skipper that I have ever seen. You both looked relaxed and engaged, and she never sniffed, happily held the stand stay, no pressure, and she exploded onto the course when you released: LOVE THIS! YESSSSS!!!
>>There a few spots of disconnection and in reviewing the video I can see that there was something outside the ring that caught her head after she came out of the tunnel which I think might be why she didn’t take the jump – watch her head.
She struggles a bit with the crowd and exit gate, but this was a mild struggle. Yes, she looked and missed a jump but also she kept running fast and did not leave, so I score it a win 🙂 And you fixed stuff in this run in a fast flow, which is exactly the way to fix something if you want to fix. No stopping, only connected running. YAY!
>>I don’t know if a dog outside the ring barking is a threshold issue or something else but would like to get your recommendations.>>
The dog was barking on the start line moment too so it might be a dog barking but it is not an ‘over threshold’ moment because she did not leave or react. So I think what you are seeing is that yes, those people and dogs are still a distraction, but it is reducing in intensity because while she looked, she was able to keep running fast, stay engaged, and get back on track. In classes, try to get your classmates to have their dogs out and barking/playing/warming up where the entry/exit would be.
So while yes, we learned some things to keep working on – overall, I think these were REALLY lovely and show definite progress towards the end goal! Bearing in mind that dog training can be up and down, and we might not always get the same great start that you got in JWW – I am thrilled to see it showing up in the ring because it basically looks like what you get at home or in privates with Jess & Perry. Very big happy dance!
Are you trialing today too?Tracy
>> <So getting right onto the diagonal and moving towards the center of the bar will help set the line a lot sooner>
hmm, I have to wonder if the angle of where the camera was is throwing things off. It wasn’t dead center of the jump pointing at the wing, it was off to the side some. I was running pretty straight to the center of the jump before cutting across. I will put a leash down to make sure next time.>>You were running towards the bar, yes, but in a straight line until she committed and not a diagonal – so there was no pressure moving into her, and the pressure is the cue 🙂
<Hmm, that makes sense but my question would be how is that different from a regular threadle for a jump say, or since it’s a threadle it should be the same, which would make sense.>
The arm cue is the same as a jump threadle, but the verbal and the line of motion before it and during it are different than a jump threadle.
>>And in case you see this that get me wondering about something else – tandem turns – I was looking at the turn away video again and you mention using 2 hands but in the video use use one with contraband and do the flick away with it? You also mention it will likely involve the threadle verbal depending on the circumstance. So how is the ‘regular’ threadle, tunnel threadle and tandem turn different? They are starting to strike me as not being really different and the hand signals seem to be pretty much the same?>>
I think they are entirely different 🙂 The tandem turn is a low, two-handed move (for most folks, it is up to the handler if she wants 2 hands or not) that sets a rear cross on the flat and the handler is also turning (rear cross)- so the 2 hands are low, and moved to draw the dog in and the dog needs to wait for the turn-away cue so the handler can set the proper line. The tandem turn is entirely a handling cue – it does sometimes “morph” into a threadle wrap because that is one of the ways it looks different than a threadle slice. The threadle slice and tunnel threadles are cued behaviors that are on a single cue – then the dog should go do it independently and not require more cues to complete it. And the hand position is different – it is a single arm, held across the body back towards the dog and shoulder height. The verbals for the threadle slice and tunnel threadle are different from each other, and the tandem turn can have a variety of different verbals, depending on the context. Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Hi!
>>I am trying to find some other options for agility locally. It’s a challenge and living in an agility class desert is really impeding our ability to trial.
It stinks that it is hard to access classes! It definitely makes it harder to go from “home schooling” to trials. Can you arrange group privates with a local instructor? Or a training group that simulates a class?
>> What you suggested is exactly what I did with Riot in scentwork. I put him in a new class with different dogs in a new location that was well below his scentwork skill set. It helped him so much because the searches were super easy and he was able to get experience and have success in a novel location with lots of people providing pressure by watching him in close proximity. I know if we can do the same in agility it will help.>>
Exactly!!! Make the sports skills easier so he can learn about the environment.
>>Since the ASCA trial, I have seen some stress in him during our two practice sessions. In the first, we were outside, and he was wanting to grab at the grass again. In the second, we were indoors and he was spinning. Outdoors, there was only one other person and dog. Inside, it was just us and Stevie. >
This is good info about bringing him into the training environment! You might need to bring him in on a pattern game each time (even if it is not a totally new environment) and also practice those instant focus games! Set the high rare of success and also assessing the environment in the familiar, predictable pattern game context. This can all happen before you try any sequencing and should avoid the stress responses.
>> I suspect ASCA was a bigger withdrawal than I ever would have anticipated.
Maybe, but probably not – it was a while ago by now, so it might be more about how you brought him into the environment and how you started the training.
>>I confirmed there will be a UKI trial in June and another ASCA trial. Both with male judges. I may just end up practicing our “before we enter the ring” stuff and then play in the ring with his leash on. But I think I ought to enter and at least do something, even if we can’t run because he may bark at the judge. What do you think?>>
Definitely enter and play! And before then, work on pattern games with 2 toys so you can actively do them in the ring with the male judges 🙂
Keep me posted!!! See you in CAMP!
Tracy
