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Hi!
>>I had to do three separate videos to capture our efforts to succeed. This first video demonstrates that Forrest clearly knows the TUNNEL command. It also clearly demonstrates how my body is NOT supporting the OVER command and once again, I see me relying on my arm. Videos are great teachers, aren’t they?>>
Yes, videos are amazing because what we feel or remember in the moment is often different than what actually happened 🙂 One important thing – Good job rewarding even when it was not perfect. These are really hard games!
Looking at the first video – you were facing forward which is fine, almost as if you were going to serpentine the jump – so what he is telling us here is that “over” is a forward cue (to keep running on the line) and Here is not a valuable word to him (he didn’t respond to it without supporting body language) Try his name! Or a ‘right’ directional. Those might help!
>>So here is the second video where I thought I was using my body more to support the OVER command and I guess I was sortof but still got that arm out.
On the 2nd video – the shoulder turn TOTALLY helped him know the difference! That is great! Physical cues are important!! So yes, keep supporting him with physical cues as the verbals get solidified.
>>The hardest part of this handling challenge was getting me between the tunnel and the jump where the wrap was located to the LEFT of the jump. I can easily get Forrest over the two jumps correctly IF I stay on the outside (pulling him over jump 2 with a gorgeous slice). But I simply was unable to get myself into position using the wing…so I didn’t. I abandoned that and put Forrest in a SIT/STAY and placed myself where I need to be. This probably just practice ignoring the tunnel and doing a nice slice…but I’m OK with that.>>
Do you mean trying to run in and do a blind cross or front cross? Using a stay was perfectly fine to get that 🙂 and you can also send away to the wing from as far as possible. But with the stay, you can also add motion – instead of leading out to position, you can release before you get there so you are running into it like you would be on course. And I agree – practicing ignoring the tunnel is a critical and useful skill!
>>We entered our first ever UKI Sweepstakes trial this weekend and we ran it NFC (mostly to dial down my anxiety and to focus on having fun). Forrest did GREAT til we got to the last four jumps lined up for a dog with a great GO commend! Forrest did three of the four perfectly but since MOM was lagging behind, he turned before the last jump to look for me…losing a few precious seconds of time. >>
Yay for UKI! And yes, those huge long lines are SO HARD! In UKI, you can have a ‘helper’ come in the ring on those NFC runs – so when I was training the big GO GO GO lines at the end of a course, I asked a friend to sneak into the ring with a ball and when I was running that last line and the dog was driving ahead, she would throw it to reward him for looking ahead (and not back at my slow self LOL!!) It really helped! Helpers and thrown balls are legal in UKI 🙂
Great job here!!! I see you put the 3rd video in the next thread, I will go there next.
TracyHi!
>>Do you know when the Flyball Invitational will be aired!? I love WEC! Any time we trial anywhere in Ocala we take a trip there with the dogs & have dinner.>>
I don’t know when it will be aired, but I will definitely share the date/time. And WEC is so cool! I still have about 6 pounds of leftover brisket nachos from the Yellow Pony last night – SO YUMMY!
Bummer about the video not working with the verbals game!
I think she is getting the idea that she needs to process the verbals, even if the processing is not perfect yet. Yay!>>because I’m not sure what to try next.>>
Revisit it with you standing – that is where she seems to have the most success, and then eventually you can go to sitting in a chair.
>>She was funny in this session, when she took the jump incorrectly and didn’t hear the MM beep, she detoured into the exit end of the tunnel, like “I got it!” So I think she is understanding that it is 1 or the other but not associating the verbals?>>
That is a very good thing – instead of being frustrated or deflated, she is attempting to solve the puzzle. Super! I think it is brilliant! Reset cookies can affirm that solving the puzzle is worthwhile, and the MM can reward correct choices.
>>Calm Your Hands with a Drink! I did it. It REALLY made me change the way I was running/moving>>
OMG this is so fun! And it is hot in Florida, so a cold drink should be rewarding for you! Congrats on NOT spilling the water! Also – Note how you never got the wrong end of the tunnel here! I think the hardest part was when you had to do a spin on the wing and move the bottle to the other hand that caused some delays LOL! And at 1:42 when you switched hand, you looked forward so she correctly read it as a blind cross to the tunnel. But then you nailed it on the next rep!
I think the whole running with the drink felt different and weird because it makes us humans have to prioritize connection and running smoothly, instead of going fast and pointing at stuff 🙂You can also try this with an ice cream cone – vanilla ice cream, so if you drop it then she can eat it LOL!
Great job here!!!
Tracy
ha! Well I would totally be the one obsessing, so I can relate to anyone else who might also be obsessing LOL!
Good morning!
Connection on the wing wraps looked great!! Distance was great too, she was happy to commit and drive back around, nice and tight. Yay! Definitely add your verbals back in so that she knows exactly when to start 🙂Rocking horses looked fabulous! The FCs and race tracks looked great!
>>my first effort at the blind was very late. >>
Yes, it happens LOL! But your response was 100% correct: telling her she was brilliant for committing to the barrel and rewarding her.
She had BIG OPINIONS at :25 and :32 about countermotion being stooooopid. I think you did move a tiny bit too quickly or too early for this stage (as you mentioned) – so slow down for now, and we will keep gradually adding more and more speed. Everything else looked great – connection, verbals, her commitment & turns, etc. Yay!
Good timing and connection on the go tunnel game! You had really good timing on the GO before she entered the short straight tunnel, for example, and excellent hustle to show her the line to the next tunnel. Yay! I think she enjoyed it LOL!
She is also moving super fast, which is great – so with that in mind, make sure the tunnels are fully stretched so she doesn’t hard bends to navigate. The bigger tunnel here had a hard bend (you can see the tunnel moving) so you have reached the point where you will want to safety-check the tunnels after each rep. My guess is that the tunnel was not set that way, but was moved by the fast dogs hitting it 🙂
The threadles looked great too – I love that the threadle verbal is sooooo different sounding than the other verbals – really helpful!!
Great job on these!!!!!
TracyGood morning!
>>Oooo but I’ve had it drilled into my brain that I’m supposed to really do crate games from when they are little puppies. I actually don’t do that, lol, I’ve kinda considered myself lazy. >>
You are not lazy 🙂 I do reward for going into the crate, and I also do a little bit of don’t bolt out til released (especially in the car) but I don’t do formal crate games anymore. There was just too much failure and pressure on puppies.
>>So today I made sure he wasn’t going to leap out of the crate, but didn’t really ask him to do a hard wait.>>
Sounds good – I do the “don’t bolt out til I get your leash on and release you” from the car. And it is a gradual process. My 7 month old puppy lets me hold his collar while I put the leash on and that is great for now.
>>Thanks for saying that his brain is still growing and things will go up and down with him for a while. I need to hear that! >>
I will keep repeating it a lot LOL!!! The dogs LOOK adult but are definite baby dogs.
>> At trials he gets to say hi to lots of people and friendly dogs and I don’t mind. I don’t worry that he will cause him to visit jump setters in the ring. I think we’ll work out a good working relationship when the time comes.>>
I agree! By allowing him to feel happy around bar setters, etc – he will have MORE focus in the ring. The dogs that are stressed or uncomfortable are the ones that tend to “visit”.
>>Today the environment was too hard for him for the resilience game. And there was a weird thing in the corner he had to check out. And I wasn’t using as high value treats so this session told me all those things lol.>>>
That is pretty normal – weird things are WEIRD lol!!! If possible, let him investigate it for as long as he needs to until he takes himself away from it (as long as it is not dangerous to let him investigate). It looks like he was definitely able to eat the treats but not as close to the weird thing. Weird plus lower value treats plus I am sure he as tired (simply being in that environment is tiring for youngsters, plus the travel to and from the trial and the schedule change, not as much sleep as normal, etc). But he did well! So you can try for higher value treats on day 2 to offset the tired brain 🙂
Great job here! I love that you are working the resilience games at trials!
TracyGood morning!
I totally understand the working getting in the way of the training! He is doing really well 🙂
The stay in front of the tunnel is looking really good! You are getting a nice lead out and clear releases/rewards. NICE!!! You don’t need to click anymore, you can use your verbal reward marker or release to the obstacle.Threadles – This went really well!! I think you might can be closer to the jump – on the very last rep, it looks like you were one arm’s length away and that was perfect.
At the beginning with the cross arm and at the end, you were pretty rotated. Ideally we keep your feet pointing towards the exit line (the MM in this case) so eventually you will be able to run through the threadle without rotating your feet. Which arm to use is your choice – you had your cross arm going here on some reps and then one arm on the others. The one arm looked more natural for you in terms of your feet (less rotated, which will make it easier to run in the future).I personally show the dog both arm cues because even though I mostly do one-arm threadles, there are times when the cross arm totally helps.
He lost the flow a little (was thinking a lot about the MM) so moving in from the stay was an excellent decision. I think he got a little into a mode of cookie-to-MM so you can also call him and shake your threadle hand.
Great job here!! I think you can start adding a tiny bit of motion here :)
TracySo true about how it is hard to stop with the young dogs! They are willing participants LOL!! I found the real answer is to get more than one puppy, so you have so many dogs to train that you can’t do long sessions with any individual pup LOL!!!
I don’t set a timer – I usually play music and give myself one song for the session. Songs are between 2.5 and 3 minutes, so I end when the song ends 🙂
Hope you had a great the at the trial!!!
T
Good morning!
This session went went really well – lots of great work! With the snow and ice on the ground, I suggest taking out the wing wrap starts – she is slipping a lot and we want to protect her shoulders. You can start from a stay instead, until the snow/ice is gone.
Great job adding a strike a pose review, she did really well here!!! She understands the handling from what we see here, provided you are connected. The only errors were early disconnections:
Your blind at :37 was too early, so she came off the line – at :36 she was exiting the wrap and you were already disconnected to start the blind, so she was correct to NOT take the jump.
The FC on the next rep and BCs on the previous and next reps were better timing and connection!
The only other blooper was at 1:03 when you were not connected, so she only saw your back and missed the jump. The connection was MUCH better at 1:12 and the last rep too – you easily got to the threadle! So remember to watch her til you think she is locked onto the line, then you can move to the next cue.
Great job here! Stay warm!!!!
TracySounds good! And also don’t obsess on this one skill – it takes a while!! The handling games are a good balance for this (motion!) and helps the dogs apply these skills to course work 🙂
T
Good morning!
>>That sounds really good! In looking forward to him having more of a brain.>>
It will be up-and-down progress through adolescence. There will be days where he appears fully adult in terms of brain function! And there will be days where he appears that he has forgotten everything – totally normal, no worries, just part of brain development and the learning comes back quickly.
>>And it took a good five minutes to get out of the crate in the car today>>
If he couldn’t really eat, is there a way to park further away at first so he can handle the environment better? Or on that first release, just scoop him out so he can get into the environment quickly and get comfy? We do eventually want him to wait in his crate but for now, we want to avoid frustration by telling him he is wrong when he is in a new environment (because in that state of arousal he might not fully know how to be right).
He was SO BRILLIANT with the pattern game here!!!! It was a really hard environment: people, noise, the visuals, and omg the smells! The smells must have been insane! He was brilliant about being able to engage with you, even when faced with these huge environmental factors. And he looked happy and relaxed 🙂
Definitely keep going with the Resilience games. They don’t look or feel as fancy as the sporty games, but they will be the foundation that makes the sporty games easier in the competition ring. The first generation of these resilience conditioned dogs is about 3 now and they are very successful in competition!
Great job!!
TracyGood morning!
>>My plan was for Jump to be short, a little higher pitched and more rapid, while Tunnel is supposed to be longer, deeper. I need a LOT more work for that to happen more naturally….or maybe I need to switch to a different verbal for Jump, one that is more natural for me to say differently>>
I think the way you were doing it on this video was good – the tunnel verbal was lower in pitch and more urgent, while jump was slightly higher and more conversational. I’m sure when you are moving, those differences will be even bigger as long as you keep “jump” in that conversational zone.
He did really well here! And speaking of moving – the next step is to try to be moving on all of these on approximately the same line of motion. The movement makes it harder, as you can see at :18-:19
He was totally coming to the jump as per the cue, was heading that way til you moved (closed shoulders then moved the toy hand) and that is what flipped him back to the tunnel there. He looked at you, saw the motion, then went to the tunnel. The same thing happened at :51.On the next reps, you didn’t move so he took the jump as cued (or the tunnel, except for one blooper on the first rep after a bunch of jump reps)
So now adding in the motion (just walking to start) will help solidify the processing of the verbal over the motion, which is HARD but incredibly useful 🙂 He is totally ready for it!
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>previously used a no reward marker, but no matter how casual or upbeat it was, it would cause her to immediately run off and chase things (real or imagined). >>
I view no reward markers differently than lots of folks – I view them as punishment markers, which actually increase frustration even if it is casual or upbeat. I think the phrase “no reward marker” was coined because positive reinforcement trainers did not want to use the term punishment so we went to “no reward” LOL!!
Here is why I call them punishment markers and why they should be treated as such, looking at it operantly: let’s say you mark a behavior with “oopsie!”in a happy voice with a smile. But the behavior was wrong, the dog gets no reinforcement, and has to come back to try again.
So technically… withdrawing access to something desirable when trying to decrease the rate of behavior just presented is negative punishment . So my smiling oopsie is a punishment marker. And there are arguments that the smiling oopsie can also turn into a positive punishment/aversive, but that is a discussion for a different day LOL!!
And lots of folks use no reward markers without looking at the rate of reinforcement – so the dog is both woking at a low rate of reinforcement and getting punishment markers then BOOM! Frustration. Yes, these markers are presented in a kinder way than the old school NO or yelling at the dog – but eventually have a similar effect.
And also, looking at it operantly is only a tiny piece of the learning puzzle – we have all sorts of other learning happening at the same time with operant learning being a relatively tiny piece (sorry, Skinner, nothing personal hahaha)
So I don’t use no reward markers. I use lots of reset markers that are consistently paired with food or toys. And when I use a marker that specifically says to the dog “that is wrong, you get nothing” it raises a red flag in my brain to be SUPER careful on the next rep, don’t use any one word over and over, and raise the rate of reinforcement through splitting the behavior.
>>I have not tried a specific word to mean “come here and get a cookie so we can try again.” I will see if that cleans up our training a bit.
It doesn’t have to be a specific word, it can be several words or phrases that get mixed in – as long as the dog is invited back, given something desirable, and then asked again if you think there is a chance of success (no chance of success means to ask for a different behavior).
>>I tried the sequence again with her on my right and sending to the jump past the tunnel. I didn’t video it, but it went much better. Perhaps it was a fresh brain, latent learning, or cleaner mechanics on my part (or all 3!). I will revisit this skill in the future.>>
Could be all of the above, or any single thing, but we will happily take the success even if we don’t fully know why 🙂
Nice session here! She is not yet ready for you to peel your shoulders away from the tunnel layering (2nd rep) – distance and layering appears to be comfy here as long as you support her parallel path (the arm cue is fine to use, it supports her path nicely :))
Blind to threadle looked great! Lovely!
Blind to backside was harder and yes, it was your line as you mentioned – the line there would be to the edge of the backside jump so she lands looking at the correct side after the blind. When you had a better line, she read it really well.
Threadle slice is also going well! On this one (and the threadle wrap) you can give a turn cue on the jump before the threadle so she lands turning – then as she is in the air, you can start the close verbal. If you start the threadle verbals too early, then they apply to the wrong jump. The turn cue will depend on how much turn you want on the previous jump, so it can be any of the turn cues. In this setup, you don’t need a lot of turning so I bet a name call will work like a charm.
The threadle wrap is going well too! This is one of the harder skills and she is doing well – the bar came down on the first one because you praised while she was jumping which distracted her a little.
And the layering to the threadle at the end also looked great – NICE!!!
>>Would you do these same sequences at some point with very little connection and handling, or does that just apply to the earlier game we played? >>
Eventually, yes, you can work a softer connection and a bit of disconnection to test the verbals (dial back motion when you do this). But a higher priority is to add more speed, to see if she can read the physical cue and hear the verbals when fast exciting things are happening 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This is definitely a hard game! A couple of ideas for you to help set up more success – she had a ton of good reps so you’ll see it continue to build.– try to alternate verbals sooner in the session, so the other obstacle is in play right away. You started with 5 jump cues in a row, so she was totally jump focused and that made it harder to switch gears to the tunnel. So begin alternating after the 1st or 2nd cue, or start with the tunnel, so she doesn’t get over-balanced in terms of value on one or the other.
Also, because the processing on this game is sooooo hard, clear the area of other distractions. Sorry, Tchoup, you gotta stay in the house LOL!! Having him right there is one more thing for the brain to process, so it de-prioritizes verbal cues as it processes the other things (like a dog potentially snuffling near her toy or treats :)) And make sure there are not toys n the ground – on one rep, there was a toy out past the jump when you cued the tunnel, and it was too hard.
Those distractions are not as significant when you are moving (because a dog brain will prioritize motion) but to get the verbals without motion, we want to dial back other distractions to leave room for the verbal processing. It is super hard!
I think she did a good job working through frustration at the end! To reduce frustration even more, you can try more of the standing neutral position before sitting in the chair, to see if that help? Standing might be more of a cue to her to take an obstacle, even if you are not moving. So standing plus alternating more can move this forward even more 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
>>It’s a long video bit we kind of struggled with a few things this session so I did little editing>>
I think the length of the session was actually the source of the main struggles (and without the editing, it was more than 8 minutes). He did really well for the first several minutes, no problems other than perhaps not reading the turn to the left on the serps as well (more on that below).
Looking first at anything he had questions about –
He was not bringing the toy directly back, which is not a big issue but also it is something to look at in terms of why – be careful not to take the toy away and put him back to “work” because that punishes the toy retrieve! Be sure to reward with a 2nd toy, and also give him some time to run around. He is still a baby pup and needs some yeehaw moments built in :). It is also possible that he was checking your hand to see if there was a cookie in it to trade, and when there was no cookie, he took the toy for another spin. So, separately from the jump games, work some retrieves so the trade cookie or toy comes out at variable times working up to when he brings it all the way back then you take out the trade/reward.The only other question I saw from him was that the left turns over the bump were little struggles. He was going to your other side and looking at the toy, possibly because it was a distraction on the harder side and possibly to set himself up to turn right, which is easier at the moment. So you can help him by slowing down as you move to position, releasing sooner (and have the toy not in your hand). The other option is to throw the toy to the landing spot to help direct his focus there on those harder turns.
And if you try twice and he can’t get it? Chalk it up to adolescent brain development and let it go, revisit it another time, rather than keep asking. It is normal with adolescent dogs that somedays they wake up and cannot do something they did the day before (or will be able to do again the next day).
He ended up on the wrong side at 2:16 but that was a handling error – you were just late with the blind cross so he was correct, good boy!
At 3:34 he broke the stay when you did a big arm movement. His stays up til that point had been really good! And I think at that point in the session, he was mentally done. There were a LOT of reps (16 reps of stays and releases to the collections on the jump, on the video), and most of the reps were control reps (stays and collected turns). So he was probably fresh out of mental energy at that point – plus all of the control makes it less interesting to stay engaged, so his arousal level dropped – and there were an additional 4.5 minutes on the video!
Scrolling back to recent sessions – he has all done a lot of these collected/controlled turn videos and a ton of stays – there is the potential that there is just not enough action or play, and it is all about the control and the stay.
Be sure to balance everything with run run run play silly goofy NO STAYS lol!!!! Even though there is a lot of reinforcement being delivered, there is a lot of repetition and that can negate the effects of the reinforcement.
At 6:30 – he was done. Definitely had ordered up an uber to go do something else LOL! That was why it was getting harder and harder to get toy play (a Golden is likely to be able to keep eating not matter what haha)
And bear in mind there are edits, so you were actually there for more than 6.5 minutes.So my biggest suggestion? A timer! Even if this was not all done as one session, it is too much rep on the same control skills for one day. Set a timer for 2 minutes then be done – you had 10 reps in the first 90 seconds or so here, so that is a great session length where he was till engaged and successful 🙂 And, if you work control skills on one day (anything that has a lot of stays and collections), the next day or two should have sessions that don’t have control skills – make those sessions a party! The rocking horses are fast-moving and don’t need stays, so those are good games to alternate with the control games.
The skills themselves here look good! So keep an eye on the clock as you train and I think you will see more amped up sessions without losing the precision :) Tracy
