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Hi!
NO MORE BAD WEATHER, I DEMAND GOOD WEATHER ONLY FROM NOW ON. (That probably won’t work, but it is worth a try LOL!!)Good work on the lateral lead outs – it is a pretty hard skill in a lot of ways (the lead out, the send, the soft turn collection, etc.)
She did well on those right turns and you didn’t include any of the struggles on her left turns (on your right) – great job breaking it down to train the collection!
If I had to guess about why she struggled on that side – I think there wasn’t enough connection so she came off the jump and towards you. On the lead outs, she was looking at you. And on your right side, you were releasing pretty soon after arriving and looking ahead at the jump. That does tend to pull baby dogs off the line. So when you get to the jump, take an extra heartbeat to look at her, establish connection to her eyes, then send (while maintaining connection, yes, lots of mechanics :))
You’ll start to see her commit better and even focus forward on the jump!
Let me know what you think! You can add in the advanced games too, as you add more connection.
TracyGood morning!
>>So, if I play all these games outside the ring or even on the training field at home most of the time, she is good. The question is what do I bring to the start line? >>
Normally I’d suggest experimenting to see what works best, in FEO runs with reinforcement in the ring (training in the ring steps 1 and 2).
But for her, this might be challenging because we don’t really have a guaranteed reinforcement to bring into the ring, and the history of being uncomfortable on the start line is longer than the reinforcement history of these games. So it might be best to use these to optimize arousal outside the ring, then in that moment: run in as late as possible and get her off the start line as fast as possible. Going in as late as possible adds an element of excitement as well as helping make sure there are no deflating last minute delays.And maybe she will chase a ball in the ring, since USDAA allows thrown toys?
>We will keep building games at home during the summer break too. 🙂 So many games to learn to play that maybe I can just build a tool trunk big enough for her to be happy rotating through games>
Yes! They are all filled with reinforcement so you will be tipping the reinforcement balance in your favor. 🙂
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>> Also, Sprite hasn’t done well with backside sends. She holds the line, but doesn’t take the bar. Should I try the exercise without the tunnel first? She loves tunnels!
So she goes to the backside but then runs past it to the tunnel? Yes, definitely take the tunnel out to refresh the value of the bar. Two things will help make the bar more independent and automatic for her:
– drop the reinforcement on the landing side of the jump just before she gets to the backside wing, when you are pretty convinced she is going to go to the backside. That way the reward is visible as she arrives on the backside of the jump. The reward drop reinforces the decision to hold the line to the backside while using placement to develop the default looking for the bar.If you are doing this already and she is still running past the bar – you can use a more interesting reward (see below) or angle the jump a little. To angle the jump, pull the entry wing towards the start wing that you are wrapp and the exit wing out away from the tunnel, so as she gets to the backside she can see the jump bar on her line more clearly.
– the other option is to use a placed reward, in the form of an empty bowl or Manners Minder (or PT) onthe landing side of the backside jump. Place it on the landing side, tucked into the wing closer to the tunnel. That way, as soon as she gets to the entry wing, you can click the PT or MM, or mark the ‘bowl’ and toss a treat into it. That can help jump start the looking for the bar.
On the video:
>>I promise I walked line you said, but it was too much time to show in each rep.
Ha! Totally understandable 🙂 Her commitment looked GREAT so we can focus on the turning.
>>She took the jump, but had no idea there was a turn with me standing there. So much for lateral position being a natural turning cue. Gemma had the same issue, so it must be something I do.>>
I don’t think it is necessarily anything we do – it might be more that she is structurally similar as a member of the same breed, so we get similar responses in terms of how they move. I see it in my dogs too – the dogs with the same breeds move the same way (the dogs with a lot of terrier move similarly to each other and a lot differently than the dogs with a lot of whippet, and they are all stuck with me as the trainer LOL!!)
But no worries, she was already making adjustments and we can help her more. She is a smart girl, she does not like splatting herself, and she has a ton of good skills so I am conident she will sort it out in the next session.
Because her commitment looks so strong, we can work a bit on getting her to understand how to collect on these soft turns. There are 3 things we can do to help her:
– use food rewards for the next session. The toy was a little too stimulating, so we can go to the “boring” food for a bit to let her think about the striding.
– replace the jump with just a wing (remove the bar) so organize her stride without having to consider jumping as well. I bet she has a complete lightbulb moment on it – when you see her turning her head before arriving at the wing, then you can add the bar back. It will happen either in that same session, or the session after it.
– starting her pretty close to the jump requires her to make a decision at the release, and she happened to be choosing the wrong option 🙂 So, because you have an awesome stay and her comitment is terrific, you can start her further back so there is more room to organize the striding. I’d say 3 big strides back from the wing (at first) then the jump, so at least 15 feet – she might end up sitting at the base of your tree or up against the fenceline 🙂 But with 15 feet or more, she can release, move, make a choice then execute the choice.
Let me know what you think! She was beginning to get the adjustment at the end of the video, but we can help her more by showing it to her systematically. The soft turns are so hard because they are just less obvious to the dog, as opposed to extension or tight wraps.
Nice work! Keep me posted!
TracyGood morning!
>> but for a straight exit is a ‘go’ really necessary all the time? Or jsut for certain situations. Eg, I only say something like a ‘go’ on jumps when I am trying to send Rayven a longer distance over the jump or down a line of jumps (actually that is more likely my ‘jump’ command), not if we are just running a basic line. Not sure why would a straight tunnel exit be any different?>>
Based on course evolution with all of the options we see now… I would give the dog the info before all of the entries at this point, so there are no questions.
>>Was thinking all three jumps, but ok will stick wither the jump bumps for now. When do you think we should start introducing actual bars? She turned 9 months this week but she is still figuring out her coordination when she is moving faster.>>
I would introduce a low bar in the set point when you can be outside on grass. She doesn’t have enough grip on the mats indoors so there is no rush. At 9 months old, she needs to learn that she can trust the footing and not compensate in her organization.
On the video:
HOORAY FOR OUTDOORS!!!!!
She did really well on the simple backside sends here and yes – when adding the wing before it, you need to move faster and be connected more 🙂 You can send to the start wing a little more so you can be ahead – it will be a sweet spot of a bit of a send so you can move forward with connection, and not so much send that you end up standing still at the jump.
She will need to sort out how to turn on grass, so don’t add a lot of running because she doesn’t quite have a handle on how to use her hind end outdoors yet.
Since we ideally want to drop th reward on the landing side of the jump to create maximum independence… How is her retrieve outdoors? And if that is either an unknown or a work in progress, you can drop giant cookies or put the MM on the landing side of the jump tucked in near the wing
>>. I probably should’ve picked something a bit simpler but I did want something that allowed me to hold her collar rather then the grids that have to rely on her wait in a sit.
You can do the “wind in your hair” set up where she goes from a wing to a jump and runs straight 🙂 That doesn’t require a stay but it does require a thrown (or placed) reward. A MM can work for that.
Now that you are able to do stuff outdoors, do a bit of refreshing things like the retrieve, stays, etc so it will be easier to play the games 🙂
Great job! Fingers crossed for more clear weather ahead!
Tracy
Hi!
>>Sigh, unfortunately my circle is really small here. I just need to get comfortable with him on my own.>>
Yes, you can goout on your own (come to NC!) or it is fine to train through the summer and go back out when Carrie can also go.
>>I think this is a double edge sword because I’ve used the pool so much to help his arousal when we were really struggling and if he just gets a quick swim, he’s much better about working. How much should I fight this struggle- it’s not super motivating to me to work through>>
Agreed, it is hard to work through because there is no simple answer. And it is a double edged sword, adding in the history of having a lot of “swim first, do other stuff later”.
So whether or not to fight with it and work it through? It comes down to whether it will have an impact on his ability to work/engage in different environments, particularly ones that have big distractions that you cannot give him in advance and do not want him to leave you for (there are swimming distractions at a lot of agility places, whether it is a pond or baby pool or something. He actually had 3 kryptonite distractoins in this video: the barking dog, the jolly ball and the pool.
So going back to my original question about whether it is important to work through it or not… a question to answer first:
what would he do if you just walked in and took off the leash (no games, no reinforcement in your hands or pockets, just enter and take off the leash) and waited to see what he did?The answer to this would tell me what my next steps are:
Would he stick around and engage with you? OIf so, then no worries about the pool.
Would he take off and leave you for one of the distractions?
If yes… then you have to work through it. If he will leave “work” at the home base practice area, then you are guaranteed struggles in the ring and life skills.The leash and the tricks/toys are management – and the first thing I learned in dog trainer school is that management always fails. If we have not worked on the underlying skills, then we will get undesired behavior when management fails or we take the dog off leash and don’t have reinforcement that is more stimulating than the distraction.
My Dalmatians proved this point to me, regularly haha! Lots of running off, not engaging, lessons learned.
And I think my greatest dog training achievement was recently when my Contraband (2 year old BorderWhippet mix) was off leash in the agility ring with me, his breeder, his mom and his half-brother. We were all standing there chatting, dogs off leash. The breeder suddenly tossed a tennis ball across the ring (what the? LOL!) and her two dogs (CB’s mom and bro!) took off after the ball… CB just looked at me and did not chase or run for the ball. I didn’t have any treats or toys on me, but he made an excellent choice. Huzzah!! It is because I had recognized his whippetty chase urges earlier on and worked through them, because leaving me and chasing other dogs and critters is a terrible thing for sports and life skills.
(Disclaimer – there are plenty of other things my dogs do that are nauighty and aren’t exactly crowning achievements LOL but I try to address the important stuff!)
So do I think it is worth working through? Yes indeed! I have seen the struggles with him not understanding how to ignore the pool in other situations! And I think you can make it easier on yourself and him by slicing the behaviors thinner – higher value reinforcement (he was jazzed for the jolly ball, and you can do the pattern game with 2 frisbees!) And start as far from the pool as possible. He was able to offer engagement and do the pattern games and do the heeling tricks he loves so much. I think more distance from the pool and higher value reinforcement will help! And controlling the environment in other ways – clear the field of rando jolly balls 🙂 and see if maybe Roulez can chew a bone or something so she disn’t barking? The pool is kryptonite enough, we don’t want to have 2 more for hi to learn to handle at the same time 🙂
It will be a bit uphill because of the previous reinforcement history, but it will be totally worth it! It will have a positive spillover (pun intended haha) in other environments too, and you won’t ever have to worry if he will leave you for a body of water 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
The transitions looked great here!!! Yay! Keep doing more Go reps than turns, to keep her running in full extension (you an throw the reward super early, as she exits the start wing, to get her blasting ahead even more).I notice that you are bending over a bit with her – I don’t recall any bending over with the BCs 🙂 so perhaps you can add more distance between the wing and the jump now, so you can run more (which should help you not bend over as much :))
Zig zags also look great, and her stay is going well too!
She was a little surprised about the first rep with all 3 bars but then she was perfect. Super!!!! So 2 things for the next session – you can shorten the distance up a little more, but having wing #2 touching bar 1, and wing #3 touching bar 2.And, you can try giving the arm cues more quickly, to see if she can respond even more quickly 🙂 I think she will be fine with it.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>But then I waited and when she came back I did a little VD to bring her up before the wrap start.>>The volume dial tricks TOTALLY helped her here! Yay! You can work in immediate volume dial tricks – you put her down, she offers a bit of engagement, then you do some tricks to get her ready. It looks like she ‘cooled off’ a little waiting at the line, and volume dial tricks are perfect for heating her up again 🙂
She did well running past the bar setters, I am glad they are in the ring – make that a lifestyle now! No more sterile rings 🙂 It was a nice fast, fun course and it was great advice from the instructor to reward for coming past the bar setter the next time too. The table was the easiest spot to reward, but you can reward over jumps too.
One thing to add in now is that you can reward pieces of the behavior rather than try to get the complete behavior, when working with bug kryptonite level distractions. She had trouble with the instructor really close at 1:25 – she didn’t take the jump but didn’t visit or sniff. In that situation… just keep running and reward the approximation of ignoring the person. Sure, she didn’t take the jump – but we are shaping behavior here and can reward pieces of it and not worry about perfection. Since she didn’t go to the person or sniff, you can keep moving and reward and then go back and fix. By turning her around to try again, you basically mark it as incorrect and present the distraction again – a reward for the approximation will help make it easier as you show it to her again. Then when she came back through it at 2:28 – mark and reward that for sure!! She got the jump that time but got rewarded at the end, a couple of jumps later. So just keep in mind that we are rewarding behavior in the context of agility, not agility 🙂
>>We have also been working on Pink Panther lead outs – She kinda thinks I’m nuts, but she’s used to that by now and is waiting to see what I’m up to and if it’s worth it to her. She held her stay about half the time, ears a little flat and only watching me out of the corner of her eye. When she broke I just laughed and through a cookie behind her. When she did stay her releases were fast – faster than when I did an “all business” lead out. My instinct is that we should sleep on it a day or two and see what she does next time, because I think the silly walk is more explosive though she understands all business better – because that’s what she’s had more reps of.>>
Yes, part of the fun of those games are that the dogs think we are completely nuts LOL!!! It is possible she will really like it! Or not 🙂 Play with it in a comfortable seeing then try it in class – she will probably like the moving away/chase elements of it!
>>It occurs to me – I probably should practice the lead out as a “lateral” as well, yes? Because I often have to move laterally to get around the wing after setting her down, depending on how the course goes.>>
Yes – you can step out to your line laterally in a calmer way, then start the game when you start to move forward on your handling line here, before the release.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> Thanks for the comments. I redid the accordion tonight at 54 inches instead of 64. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize until afterwards that I had 4 jumps and not 3! LOL. I will redo it tomorrow and upload.
The accordion grid can be eon with 4 jumps (the 4th jump is the one that moves, for example) but I start the pups on 3 for a bit. Eventually they do go to 4 jumps (and all sorts of variations LOL!) Yo can post that video if you like! No rush to redo it today or tomorrow, since he has done it 2 days in a row. He can have a day or two off from jumping to let the body rest and brain cement the skills 🙂
The backside work looked lovely!! He is really finding the backsides independently, allowing you to get all the way across the bar for the Countermotion serpy exits. YAY!! When you are moving to the center of the bar or the far side of the bar, you can remove the bar on the ground that is marking the line to the entry wing for the handler – I don’t want you to roll an ankle on it.
I know there was some talk about you moving a little too laterally away on the backsides – ideally, as he develops his understanding, you move forward on that parallel path til you see him lock onto the entry wing… then you can peel away laterally to your next position. I think for now, you’ll be waiting til just about when he arrives at the entry wing, but eventually it will be insanely early (in a good way) because he is already showing lovely independence for getting to the backside AND jumping the bar. The BC and FC you did on the landing side already looked great. And he was happy to let you do the countermotion serp exits (the baby level warm up was easy for him – yo can add more motion to it by jogging and also release later, when you are a step or two past the exit wing :))
One question for you: on your serps, do you use an opposite arm as part of the serp cue? On the first bunch of backside reps, you had the opposite arm up but it might have been for holding the toy? He doesn’t need it to help support the line to the backside, so as long as you are connected for now, you don’t need the opposite arm as a serp arm – it is faster to run without it, and it help the threadle arm look very different in threadle situations.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyMary, I am going to do my best to fit in the original MaxPuppers before we open it to the public 🙂 I am sure you will get the spots you want 🙂
Hi! He did really well here!
With the off leash game: for next steps, now try to have your hands empty as you take off the leash (I think you had a cookie in your hand here? If not, yay! And go to the next step). And then we will go to not wearing the pouches (leave them on the crate) – but the cookies can be in a pocket or something 🙂
For the pattern game with the clicker: he is doing well here! This game should be as verbally quiet as possible – just the clicker and the ‘get it’, no praise or name calls – because the goal is that we click/treat his choice to lift his head and ignore the smells. You can really see him starting to do it at about :20, where he lifts his head, considers going to the crate with the stinky treats… but chooses to look at you instead.YES!
Remember to toss the cookies here and not feed from you hands – the tossed treats create the pool of scent that we want as his distraction 🙂
When you reloaded treats from the bag to your hands, his focus got interrupted a little. You can move to a new spot and restart the game in that moment. But if he takes a moment to lift his head, stay very quiet and do’t help 🙂 He was taking a couple of extra seconds at the end and you were calling and helping him, but we want him to make the choice. The tossed cookies create the pool of distraction scent so he might need an extra second or two, which is fine – stay totally still and quiet 🙂 When he engages? Click/treat! If he cannot engage after about 10 seconds? Move to a new spot and reset the game, no worries.
In the first part of this video, he was alsmot at the point where he was not distracted at all – when he does not take his eyes off you, you can start walking back and forth while playing rather than standing still.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> I am sorry to be the difficult student here
Ha! You are not being difficult at all!
>>The first round she actually perked up and left the start line with great drive (one obstacle and reward). Typical Tango though, the second rep (different and less stressful obstacle), she turned her head. This is why I quit doing it along the way in our trialing several years ago. I confess to being frustrated, not with her, but with the very typical I can use it once or maybe even a few times and then it doesn’t work any more. Any thoughts or feed back? She got a HUGE reward/party after our first rep today, so there is no reason other than memory that she would turn away on the second rep. Hmmmm.>>
My guess is that the first rep shifts internal state in a good way and then after it has shifted, by doing it again the game comes across as pressure perhaps? IT sounds like something in the classical/reflexive realm and not in the operant realm – because the big reward would theoretically build behavior if it was just an operant training issue.
It also might strip away a layer and give us some insight into her feelings about pressure in that internal state. Interesting! So we can fight fire with fire 🙂 and just condition it to change the conditioned response: play a tiny slice of it, away from a jump, throw a cookie or her ball – no real stay behavior or release, just the body posture or breathing (and just a little bit of it).
While you may never decide to take this game to the start line, it *does* provide a great way to turn on the internal state that she struggles with and, in tiny slices, pair it with amazing things. I use these games in training for dogs that will never see them in the ring, as a way to help them modulate their internal states (Contraband, I am looking at YOU! HA!) The more I watch dogs in action, the more I think it is really about the classical conditioning and not as much about the operant conditioning or trained behaviors. Fascinating but also super challenging.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
