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Hi! He did really well here!
With the off leash game: for next steps, now try to have your hands empty as you take off the leash (I think you had a cookie in your hand here? If not, yay! And go to the next step). And then we will go to not wearing the pouches (leave them on the crate) – but the cookies can be in a pocket or something 🙂
For the pattern game with the clicker: he is doing well here! This game should be as verbally quiet as possible – just the clicker and the ‘get it’, no praise or name calls – because the goal is that we click/treat his choice to lift his head and ignore the smells. You can really see him starting to do it at about :20, where he lifts his head, considers going to the crate with the stinky treats… but chooses to look at you instead.YES!
Remember to toss the cookies here and not feed from you hands – the tossed treats create the pool of scent that we want as his distraction 🙂
When you reloaded treats from the bag to your hands, his focus got interrupted a little. You can move to a new spot and restart the game in that moment. But if he takes a moment to lift his head, stay very quiet and do’t help 🙂 He was taking a couple of extra seconds at the end and you were calling and helping him, but we want him to make the choice. The tossed cookies create the pool of distraction scent so he might need an extra second or two, which is fine – stay totally still and quiet 🙂 When he engages? Click/treat! If he cannot engage after about 10 seconds? Move to a new spot and reset the game, no worries.
In the first part of this video, he was alsmot at the point where he was not distracted at all – when he does not take his eyes off you, you can start walking back and forth while playing rather than standing still.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> I am sorry to be the difficult student here
Ha! You are not being difficult at all!
>>The first round she actually perked up and left the start line with great drive (one obstacle and reward). Typical Tango though, the second rep (different and less stressful obstacle), she turned her head. This is why I quit doing it along the way in our trialing several years ago. I confess to being frustrated, not with her, but with the very typical I can use it once or maybe even a few times and then it doesn’t work any more. Any thoughts or feed back? She got a HUGE reward/party after our first rep today, so there is no reason other than memory that she would turn away on the second rep. Hmmmm.>>
My guess is that the first rep shifts internal state in a good way and then after it has shifted, by doing it again the game comes across as pressure perhaps? IT sounds like something in the classical/reflexive realm and not in the operant realm – because the big reward would theoretically build behavior if it was just an operant training issue.
It also might strip away a layer and give us some insight into her feelings about pressure in that internal state. Interesting! So we can fight fire with fire 🙂 and just condition it to change the conditioned response: play a tiny slice of it, away from a jump, throw a cookie or her ball – no real stay behavior or release, just the body posture or breathing (and just a little bit of it).
While you may never decide to take this game to the start line, it *does* provide a great way to turn on the internal state that she struggles with and, in tiny slices, pair it with amazing things. I use these games in training for dogs that will never see them in the ring, as a way to help them modulate their internal states (Contraband, I am looking at YOU! HA!) The more I watch dogs in action, the more I think it is really about the classical conditioning and not as much about the operant conditioning or trained behaviors. Fascinating but also super challenging.
Let me know what you think!
TracyThat’s fine for now – anything that isn’t sniffing is rewardable 🙂 eventually we won’t have cookies in your hands 🙂
Hi!
Only 7 more full times days?!?!? The countdown is ON!!!!!!!Good reps here! She was balanced and made good striding decisions. She dropped bar 1 on the 4th rep – I think she was tryingto go fast but then saw the interval between 2 and 3 was smaller so dropped her back feet a bit – no worries at all. She recovered and had a great rep 5
She was balanced and making good decisions here, so for the next time you do this grid: Use the dragging toy 🙂 That will challenge her to stay balanced in the 5 foot ‘compression’ distance and open up more as the 3rd jump gets further away 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I didn’t want to drop her name as I still try to do the name call when I want a tighter turn out of the tunnel and the straight exit with no verbal from me. This should sort once we get outside as you say.>>
The name call is fine… except it is done before she enters so you can be using the next verbal when she exits 🙂 And I will try to talk you into directionals for the exits rather than just name or silence 🙂 Tunnel exits have gotten complicated, so the directionals really help.
>>I looked to see if I could find Jordan’s running contact stuff. it doesn’t seem to be on the CR website anymore and I couldn’t find anything on her website. Brigitte suggested Justine Davenport and Kirsten o’neill’s but neither of them have any courses up right now or even enough to evaluate if I would want to do one or the other.>>
You can find Jordan’s here:
https://www.argusranch.com/online-classesAnd the other person I was thinking of is Katarina Podlipnik:
>>It has always struck me that running contacts are harder on the dogs from a training perspective but that hard stop ot the bottom of the AF for the 2o2o also concerns me just from wear and tear over time.>>
The real damage on the a-frame is the slam on the way up and the hyper-extension over the top, particularly on the running frames. A nicely trained 2o2o has no slam because there is a weight shift to the dog’s hind end and very few reps needed on the full contact to train and maintain it. (Bear in mind that I have running a-frames on all of my dogs at this point right now, so I am hyper careful about training).
>>Any chance you are going to do something contact wise for a course?? I def want to teach a Running AF (and likely also the 2o2o AF), the RDW is debatable.>>
The teeter class is in independent study and I might teach it again live in the fall, but no other plans for contact training classes at the moment – simply not enough hours in the day.
>>I have started shaping Beka into a 2o2o position on the travel plank. My debates have been a target (like you use it no need to nose touch it) and with shaping the 2o2o is it going to be harder to get her to simply stand on the travel plank for things like conditioning exercises that use the travel plank.>>
In my experience: The target is the easiest, fastest way to train it independently and you don’t need to do the nose touches 🙂 Shaping it doesn’t give the dog a focal point and it tends to make the dog more handler dependent (watching the handler more) and more upright (slower and less weight shift).
>>I had the same question here as I was wondering about for the wrap verbal proofing – what is the balance on this? yes, front of the jump (and likely to the tunnel) but is it a threadle to pull them off the backside line since they can see it, and if so which threadle would it be? it’s not a real thredle since they aren’t crossing the plane of the jump to get there. A verbal like their name to do do same? Post turn after the wing jump?>>
There are several balance elements in the advanced level of this game – a FC or BC on the landing side to the tunnel, or a backside circle wrap, or one of the contermotion serpentine exits. Those are challenging. No front side balance needed on this one, it is simply a distraction as is the tunnel entry.
She did really well with the backsides! You were able to move up the line towards the center of the bar, which is great independence already. You can add more of your motion now so you are jogging and then running! As you add this, and especially as you add the advanced level games. always drop the reward near the landing spot – no tugging from your hands – so she looks for the bar and not for your hands.
One other small detail – on the start wing, I would use a wrap verbal not the left soft turns cue. If you picture her going over a bar parallel to the backside bar as she approaches the wing, it is a wrap exit (coming back around the wing immediately) not a soft turn exit.
She did really well with the initial steps of the countermotion exits too!!
>>then she got into not releasing on the ok>>
Looking at it to figure ou why she didn’t want to break, I think it was probably because you were looking directly at her while facing forward for the countermotion, so she was likely thinking she should not go behind you.
It was not an issue when you were on the landing side, but being on the takeoff side with you facing forward and looking at her was really hard. So when you release, turn your head and point your hand to the landing spot, so you shift your connection from her eyes to the landing spot (make it obvious and exaggerated) That should help!
On the grid:
Overall she made good decisions! She has a bit of trouble organizing her takeoff on the very first rep, and then yes had the interesting footwork at :32 🙂 I think there was a lot going on visually in terms of the white bump and the multi-color mats and the black mat there, so I am guessing she just didn’t know what to do with her feet with all of that visual distraction (dogs definitely have trouble sorting that ou). So my first suggestion is to move the black mats and color mats so her footing is the same color throughout so the visual is easier to ‘read’.>.Wonderring if I should considerr switching to a jump bar at 6″ or stick with the bumps? Bump isn’t quite 4″ high and seems to be promoting a running approach to things versus a jumping approach.>>
For jump 3? You can do that, locking in a bar at 4″ over the bump – not sure it will help or not, but worth a try! I think that is secondary to changing the visual with the 3 different color surfaces though. I am not too concerned about the other movement – it is jump-like enough and definitely not trotting, so it is working! I am putting in a request to mother nature to hurry up and send you good weather, because this really needs to go outside LOL! We have been patient, it is practically May, so it is time for Mother Nature to cooperate 🙂 Doing this on grass will really allow us to make adjustments because she will have much better grip and easier visuals.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi Marie!
>>If we are interested in a live seminar but the date conflicts with something else we do, do we simply select either of the Sunday dates or weeknight option listed and you will post other options? Or do we select one of those options and then send you weeknights that we would be available? I didn’t see a place to specify details.>>
Yes, click on a corresponding sunday or weeknight. If those don’t work either, let me know – I will be emailing everyone soon about it.
>>Also, I didn’t see where we send payment for the live seminars. Will that be like an invoice or something we get later?>>
yes – once the spots are sorted, we will invoice everyone 🙂
Tracy
You can see who else is traveling to trials or seminars, and hook up with them! Fever is on a roll, so it would be fun to keep working on his skills 🙂
Hi!
In thinking about it, I also use the pattern games to teach the dogs to ignore food scent on the ground: in a non-stinky place, toss a treat on the ground. When he eats it and looks back at you – click that moment of looking at you and toss a treat a different location.
Start it in the house to establish the skill.. then move it to the grass! Use big non-crumbly treats to start with so he can gobble it up fast and return engagement to you immediately (a clicker can be useful!)
And then when he whips his eyes back to you and his nose away from scent on the ground… then we can put it back into the game here, with the treats tossed on the ground near your feet. You’ll see that in just a few sessions, the tossed treat/pattern game becomes a cue to engage!
Tracy
Hi!
Since we are discussing jumping… 🙂
He made all sorts of good decisions with the accordion grid!
What is the distance between jumps 1 and 2? I think it is a tiny bit long for now, so he is landing a little short on 2 which makes it harder to power into 3. You can see it on rep 2 and 4 when he was sorting out adding the collected 1-stride between 2 and 3. So we can shorten the space between 1 and 2 by about a foot, to help him compress and coil like a spring to propel into the next jump. I think as he develops, he will start bouncing the distance between 2 and 3 on reps 2 and 4 🙂He also did well on the lateral lead out game! He seemed to have no trouble finding the jump and understanding to also turn. Super!!! When you arrive in the lead out position, take one more heartbeat to connect, then take a breath, even tell him he is cute… then release. You did this pretty much at 1:22 (it was a stay reminder rather than praise but that works too). On the other reps, you were tending to reconnect and release all at the same time – and he will quickly pair the reconnection into the release, leading to anticipation and more elevator butt. So that extra moment of connect, praise then release (or throw the reward back) will help maintain the stay.
He seems ready for the advanced level, replacing the wing with a jump and adding in more handling moves 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>. My other 2 agility males were toy breeds so it’ll be a learning experience for me.
Toy breeds will have such different structure (terrier and papillon, right?) that the jumping form will look really different (higher heads in general because of the front end structure).
>> Even our other BC Jax is only 18”. Admittedly I am super sensitive to bar knocking because Jax has ETO (Gina Day Dx as alternating strabismus) and I spent some time trying to “fix it”. Ronan seems to have a better natural jumping style than her and is more rounded already.>>
Ah yes, ETO is hard!!! I don’t see Ronan showing any indication of that (although I can totally relate to why you would be sensitive to it), so we are that stage of looking for the sweet spot and letting him grow up a bit. The demo videos from last night are a good example: my little Elektra dog was sorta bouncing 3 foot distances with no real speed or power. She was about a year old when I filmed those demos. She is now two years old and can power bounce 10 foot distances with no trouble. There is a lot to be said for letting physical maturity help us out 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>>> I thought so too and it felt effortless running him. His outside class is one of the most challenging environments – freeway, train, rabbits, rock band, and bacon factory. Plus that sand is harder to get footing and not fun to eat dropped cookies. Inside he’s much better and it has AC.
Rock band and BACON FACTORY? I am distracted just reading that LOL!!! And the goal is that running him should feel effortless – I am so glad you felt it on Sunday!
>> what do you think were your most useful and successful tools at the trial?
Volume dial with food waiting in line
Engaged chill away from ring
Pattern game I only used a little for really exciting sounds
Crating in the car with AC really helped>>Awesome! It will be good to track how these games stack up in future trials, especially as you move to the next training in the ring steps.
>>I really didn’t have to use many tools at trial. The leash off engagement at home/class really transferred to the ring. Kryptonite with leash runner in class helped. Volume dial with clam on his first start kept his focus so I didn’t need anything for the other ones.>>
It is good to know that the training is already showing up at trials!!
>> And what did not work as well (such as instant focus on Saturday)
Yeah, instant focus does not work well as 1st thing, even when I tried at different places. I did have his bed set up in shade so he did hop on it right away after we had already been walking around. He didn’t use it the rest of the time though but it was a magnet for a border collie who liked boundaries. The bed works in class away from ring.>>So pattern games and volume dial definitely rank above the instant focus. Noted!
>>His class Monday felt worse than it looked on video. He has more trouble right after a trial on Sunday since there’s no break. My instructor asked if I had commands for the jumps and sending back. Unfortunately it was even hotter Monday night than Sun afternoon and he was not in the AC.>>
Having a poopy-feeling class after a good weekend is normal – both of you were probably still tired and depleted! No worries, he still got lots of reinforcement and a lot of good things happened!
>>1st run
The Elmer Fudd walk was unintentional but maybe influenced by seeing your video before class. There was a really loud noise that distracted him so I was trying to sneak in a lead out while waiting for his attention. Seemed noisier than usual and even I was distracted by some of the chatter. I got scolded by him for being behind on the jumps at the end.>>Ah yes, I hard the noises and the other dogs barking! But he remained engaged and did well. When he was ahead and got mad at you – when you are behind him and running to keep up 🙂 you don’t need your arm pointing ahead – you can just pump your arms like a sprinter and run 🙂 that keeps your shoulders showing the line better even if you are behind.
2nd run – I see what you mean about the leash distraction. My guess is that part of it is that the ‘action’ stopped with the tunnel under the dog walk challenge so he got distracted by that and by the leash moving. It would be interesting to see if that happens on a jump/tunnel line too when he stays in motion?
Using the tricks to get him back in gear was great – volume dial!>>3rd run
My instructor is enjoying being Kryptonite. I heard one of my classmates complaining she distracted him and she told him she was a judge and allowed to move. I was happy to get the practice and rewarded with his clam.>>Ha! I am so glad she is having some fun with this 🙂 And she is right – the judge will be moving, so she is totaly allowed to be a moving distraction here.
He had a refusal on the yellow tunnel at the beginning, but that was more of a deceletration from you causing it and not the leash moving even though he did look backat her. He was perfect about passing her with focus until :36 when you were looking forward and that pulled him off the jump. He is a dog that thrives on connection, so in that moment I think a stronger cue would be a low arm pointing back to him, and a bit of eye contact (while you are running :)) then he got distracted.
So we are seeing a pattern here: he ignores distraction when things are going along nicely… but when there is an error or break in the action, he looked around. That means he needs to play the Find My Face game. In case you make a mistake, he will know to look at you and not at the distraction! Yay! It is an easy game to teach and add to the toolbox.
>>He was not so calm in class and after one of his runs we were headed back while the other dog was running nearby. His clasp on the harness had not fully latched so he pulled out and went to interact with the female Sheltie. I was calling him back so I didn’t see but they said she gave him a female correction and he stopped and came back to me>>
That was probably just the depletion in action – he had a busy weekend with a lot of success, and he di dwell in class! He made a mental error of visiting the girl sheltie 🙂 and that is a common depletion-based error. But then he came back to you, all good!
Great job here – the Find My Face is next up on the list of games for him and it will be fun to put it in action!
TracyGood morning!
Definitely progress here, he was a good boy! It cracks me up that the cookies are the ones in the crate, playing crate games LOL!
Definitely hold the leash in the early part of the session – you tend to drop the leash and he scoots off to the distraction. It is those first few reps that are the most important, so holding the leash is helpful!
This was a high energy volume dial session, and he did well with the tricks and the running. So now we map out the next steps:
To ultimately answer his question about ignoring the smells and food, add in more of the games so that his engagement does not depend on your energy level, or on you asking for tricks in rapid successive. Ideally, he can ignore the food distractions while you are *not* cuing engagement with the treats and not being super energetic. Otherwise, you will be tied into controlling his choices with the tricks and your energy level, which can be really difficult to do.
So since he is doing so well with the tricks/volume dial game, you can add in the other games that do not depend on tricks or high energy levels from you:
– The pattern game is super important, because it teaches him to offer engagement in the face of distractions without needing help from you
– the off leash offered engagement is a great one too, because you basically stand there and take the leash off… and see what he does 🙂 You can use two leashes in a big outdoor environment if you think he might scoot off, but taking the leash off and rewarding him for offering engagement is really helpful for the start line!
And once he can do all of this with reinforcement on you in the treat pockets… the next step would be to take those off and leave them outside the ring. When you do that, you can have a treat or two in your pants pocket, or you can use the remote reinforcement approach which is also super important.
The volume dial games still get used, as a way to pump him up before the start of the session or run – but they are just a small piece of it because we want to also emphasize him offering engagement without you having to ask for it a lot.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>And these are in succession.
Were they all from the morning, or from the night session?
>>There was scary and non-scary kryptonite, new people when we came in ( who left ), rooster/hen noise, kids/dogs neighbor noise, freshly irrigated and cut grass, car backfires, multiple times. So I decided not have students stand near ring and bring out all the APDBs. >>
Smart to NOT add distractions when the environment was already adding them for you 🙂 If these videos are from the morning, how did she do in the evening training? When you recognize a really challenging environment, the first game should be pattern games. And when she is doing well with those, go to the volume dial game, then to off leash offered engagement.
>>And, she wanted the tennis balls instead 🤪. Go figure! >>
Ah, dogs… LOL! Reinforcement is in the eye of the beholder, so it was good to go with the balls.
>>I have a lot to say about these videos, but wisely, I’d like to hear what you have to say instead.>>
Definitely let me know what you think! My thoughts: in general, I think you will make faster progress if you are more systematic in your use of reinforcement. Use it to really pinpoint the moments you want to build up, like ignoring the people. On the videos, you mostly were running agility and rewarding at the end or bottom of a contact, but we can pinpoint other things as well. She did get reinforcement for ignoring the person or doing the weaves, but those were after failures. Try to look at the course from a different perspective: where are her kryptonite challenges? And what can you do to help with those, other than the sequence? Attacking the kryptonite first will help the sequences!
She also did really well with the remote reinforcement chair! I think you also had reinforcement with you (pocket or hand) but she was really good about ignoring the chair til cued. You can do short bursts of sequences with no reinforcement on you – but that is less important and lower on the priority list than training the skills of engagement and getting her less anxious about the people nearby.
And, in new environments, I think you can also play some kryptonite games – like the pattern game on leash with tossed treats or two tennis balls replacing the treats, walking past the new people.
>>So. We actually caught her barking at someone on tape. I call this a drive by barking, not the leave me to alarm bark at someone.>>
yes – there was a random person standing on the line near the poles, looking at her. The drive by was just a smaller version of leaving to bark, and it is the perfect opportunity to leave the agility obstacles for a moment, and work the engagement games with the ‘kryptonite’. It is safe to assume that a person nearby and looking directly at her might trigger barking… so rather than try to work a sequence into the weave poles, it is more important to work the pattern game of assess the environment and return engagement to you by playing the cookie pattern game on the flat, near-ish to the person, no obstacles involved.
Asking her to weave with the person was right there was too challenging, so she struggled (barked at the person). For now, take the weaves out of the equation entirely – her success rate on weaves in this location was a bit too low without the distraction, which guaranteed failure with the distraction. So, first do pattern games on the flat, then you can add in people to the ring crew and work that skill.
And, especially since you are training here, spread your reinforcement out on course more – your rewards were coming out at the end of the course or end of contacts (or on the weaves after an error) but I think you will see her be able to ignore the environment more if you note the places where she runs past a person, for example – reward that immediately rather than carry on. And, when there is a handling error, you will keep her engagement in a better state if you reset with a reward, then try again.
Looking at the beginning of each run, she did a little better when you had the ball or moving tricks for treats as part of the pre-run warm up, so keep things really active as you bring her into each run. This is the volume dial game in action, and it will really help with engagement.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
