Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
This is great! Was he able to play the pattern games with treats too? That will be incredibly useful as you get closer and closer to the ring.
T
HI!
I think this is about the right size – his face looks so dramatic LOL!!! You can see his baby dog sit is still a little loose – as he develops more, you will see him draw his knees in under him and his back toes will line up behind his front toes pretty directly. So practice this a couple of times a week and you will see things change as he physically matures 🙂
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
The ball retrieving is looking good! Yes, he is a strong lefty 🙂 And he did a great job of bringing it all the way back to the toy. Super!!! And any time you do something like this where you emphasize one direction, you can do the next session of. the day with a few reps going the other direction, to keep him balanced.
You only had about 5 reps on this, which is perfect (that is about the # of reps we limit to in flyball, because it is so explosive). So 5 reps in 4 minutes? That means it was mainly play play play which is great 🙂 Yay!!
T
Hi!
>>up that there were no wings. I wanted to ask you about doing this with no wings versus wings. Do you start with no wings and then add the wings in later? Is it easier without wings?>>
Good question! It is easier without wings at first because the pup can see more of you without the wings blocking anything. That way the pup can see where your arm/shoulder is, without it being hidden behind a big wing. The bump is also more visible that way too. Then we eventually add in the wing.
On the threadles – Bloopers are good to see!! When he was having trouble coming over the bar, part of the reason was toy placement that was causing him to not find the bar – it was on a strange angle so he had to over-turn to find it on the first few reps. The placement was better at :33 and :45 where he could see it across the bump more easily.
To help him remember to default to the bar after he comes into the threadle, set the toy on that angle but warm up the session with a couple of reps without you moving at all. If he can find. The bar 2 or 3 times without you moving you can add in some very oh-so-slow motion, almost shuffling.
And if he still has questions, you can angle the exit upright a bit: leave the entry upright where it is, and your line will be the same, and the toy placement will be the same. But you will move the exit upright towards you so that as he comes around the entry to the threadle, the bar is far more visible and an easier turn to get.
About where to look – yes, ideally you look at the threadle hand when you say the verbal, you might have to tie your hair back because it was hard to see when hair was covering both sides of your face 🙂 But then don’t worry about where to look next – you can follow him with your eyes, but the toy will do the heavy lifting of creating the default to the bar.
On the serps –
>>Also, am I saying “break” too early on the serp? I realized I’m saying it more in the middle versus at the 2nd pole.>>
That timing was fine, as long as you keep moving so you are out of the way when he gets to the bump 🙂 You were releasing but then decelerating so you were in the landing spot both times. So keep that motion going so he has the landing spot all to himself 🙂
Nice work!
Tracy
Hi –
He looks like he will 10000% recall to you so it is a matter of mechanics now 🙂>> (I’m thinking I need to try to keep it lower so it’s more level with his head?????)>>
I think it should eb a different toy 🙂
The toy is definitely too small, hard, and too high – he has to come in and jump up for it, which makes for an awkward neck position and less drive to the toy (which is part of why he dropped it pretty quickly). So try to have a long, softer toy that can be at or below his head position *while he is running* – that is critical because that is a lower head position then when he is trotting to standing. I like to use toys that will reach the ground or get close to reaching the ground, so the pup can look down at the toy.>>I totally forgot about running away afterward for the retrieve part. I got distracted by the other humans and missed that second half. His reaction is totally telling with dropping the toy. Tùlka and I trialed the two days before and I think mentally and physically I was a bit spent by the time Sunday puppy class rolled around.>>
I often will write out 3 or 4 important steps to remember, text them to myself or jot them on scrap paper, then read them right before I do the session – it is easy to forget details so I have become really good at texting things to myself LOL!!!
And you will also get really good at ignoring other people til after you have finished the rep 🙂 No one was trying to be distracting, but people love to chat while we are training the puppies 🙂 We humans feel like we have to pay attention to them which draws focus away from the pups… so I ignore people til I have finished the rep, then I might respond 🙂 They don’t seem offended LOL and the pup is happy 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
The transfer to the wing did look very easy! He was able to maintain commitment and bendy really well!>>Should I stay close to the wing until I see that he consistently doesn’t hit it?
I watched this a few times t see where/why he was hitting it… I only saw one hit (:12) and then he was like “that didn’t feel great” and went out of his way to not hit it after that. Were there more hits that aren’t on the video? Usually the pups will hit the wing when they are rushing for reinforcement. So what you can do is have 2 approaches:
– more motion from you, and food rewards (which should be less stimulating for him)
– get him excited with a toy reward, but walk through it instead of run>>I was thinking I should let him run through the toy each time so he doesn’t get hurt.
Yes – I like for the dogs to not wrench themselves, so you can totally let him run through the toy or use. Really long toy that you can drop on the ground so he can pick up one end of it.
>>And I also noticed I tend to pull up and stop running (boring human LOL). Should I keep running after the turn and burn so he really has some fun chasing me?>>
Yes! Run run run…. But not if it causes him to rush or hit the wing. Then it is walk walk walk LOL!
Nice job!
TracyGood morning!
The threadles are looking good! One little oopsie on each side (she was probably just anticipating the move to the MM, especially later in the video) but overall looking really good! One thing to consider is dipping your shoulder down to show the threadle arm movement more especially as you start to add motion… because I think she is ready for the next step where you start to very sloooowwwwlllly start to move 🙂
You will find the adding motion game here, in week 11:
>>She was less bouncy but I took a picture instead of starting the video. LOL!>>
I feel this pain SO MUCH!!!! LOL!!!! As you work through running contacts, there are lots of ways to get striding instead of bouncing, so this is a very good start!
>>I had to move the tunnel because of an ant hill and she just flat out did not want to go in the tunnel. So I didn’t push her. We came back to it later in the day and I moved it again and she ran into it, so I played a little, but she ended the game quickly. I’ll see how she feels tomorrow or the next day. >
This could be because she was used to the tunnel being in that one spot, or hormonal changes from being in season, or adolescent brain changes… or all of the above. Or none of the above LOL! The smart thing to do was to NOT push it, and revisit it at another time.
And when you revisit it, start with easy non-threadle entries to remind her of the joy of running really fast through it rather than having to think about the coordination or tuning away to it.
>>We are down 2 pool noodles for the Minny Pinny game. (Rest in Peace) Any ideas of something I can use that won’t look so fun to her? I can get new ones but I’m not sure if they’ll survive!>>
I am so sorry that the 2 noodles were sacrificed to the cause! LOL!! You can slice the noodle in half or make an opening straight down the length of it and put the jump bar inside of it (I did that with the parallel path concept transfer for my puppy). The other options are 2” jump bumps (which would be 4” round PVC pipe cut in half, or any variation of that). There are garden PVC pipes that are easy enough to ut (or have Lowe’s cut them) but be sure to not get the ones with the holes in them because she could get a toe caught in it.
Nice work here!! Let me know how she feels about the tunnel next time you try it 🙂 Tracy
Hi!
>>almost don’t want to pot this b it what the hey! The moving serpentine was mui difficulto. I think I was frequently too far forward which brought him past the jump and to the MM on some of these.>>
I am glad you posted it! The harder sessions are always the good ones to post, because the video will give us answers 🙂 And yes, this game is incredibly challenging because it is not a ‘natural’ behavior for those Border Collie-types 🙂 A couple of ideas for you:
I think on a lot of the blooper moments, his feet were actually facing the MM and not the bar. You can help him by having him face the bar and not the MM.
It is entirely possible that processing the stay AND the serp cue was too much, so on the next session you can have someone hold him so he doesn’t have to think about the stay.
As you move through the serp, move VERY slowly, almost a shuffle – I think you were moving a little too fast in the beginning and that was making it harder (plus getting you past position when you released, as you noted).
And as you shuffle to position, your serp arm should already by in place – rather than gt there and then add the serp arm. By adding the serp arm after you arrive in position, you are building the arm movement into the release, which made him want to release on the hand motion. If you just have it up the whole time, the release will be verbal-only.
One thing that has helped some of the dogs is to start on the so-called “hard” angle (position 3, next to the MM) – it is actually easier because they are not looking at or moving towards the MM, they are not looking and are moving away from it. So try that and see if it helps!
Because this game is incredibly challenging and there might be errors or questions, I would like to see reset reinforcement on every.single.rep., lots of rewards thrown back to reward the stay, as well as toy play between each rep and NO oops markers. More reinforcement will help keep the umbrella (overall) rate of success really high. And getting rid of the oops markers will keep his frustration levels down. Even one little oops sends him into a bit of a spiral – he already knows he is wrong (dogs are brilliant!) so we don’t need to tell him twice 🙂 And tugging in between each rep and each MM reward will help keep him happily balanced and it will reduce the emphasis on the MM 🙂
The concept transfer to the wing was great! He is digging in and getting low, bending so nicely without sacrificing speed… in both directions! Woot!! Love it! All reps were perfect except 2:33 where you didn’t let him get past you LOL! Fast, tight, powerful – looks amazing!!!!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>She keeps me on track. What am I gonna do when she moves? 😭
She is going to need a helicopter for quick trips back to NoLa!!
>> knew my mechanics were off and too many failures. Definitely don’t want to poison his stay.
That is why I live and die by that 2 failure rule. I note the first failure… but then if there is a second, a voice in my head says, “That’s TWO, TRACY!” so I change something (or if I don’t know what to change, I do something else, end the session, then watch the video).
T
Hi!
Yes, we have to keep an eye on how young she is – she is even younger than my pup, I think! And he is soooo young, legs going everywhere LOL!! Excellent brains on these babies… but they are not necessarily coordinated yet as they learn to process All.The.Things.
>>I suggested to Susan to try to have toy already on ground and then drag it.. just like jumping class.>>
We add that in the next class, no need for it here yet 🙂 Stay tuned!!!
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>. I started out looking at her thinking connection, but didn’t feel a whole lot of connection? So I ended up just letting her go after saying ready too many times.>>
Think of connection as a handling cue, not as engagement. Connection is just where you look at her 🙂 Engagement is when you think she is paying attention and working with you.
>>She was WTF you are grabbing my collar with hand that smells like treats but nothing good happening.
HA! Yes, as a terrier, there were definitely F bombs in there. I don’t think she minding the holding of the collar – it was more that she was not sure about being moved around by the collar. I will walk my pup around by the collar, but I really don’t use it t move him into a start position because it is a weird thing for the pups and often gets them into an opposition reflex moment.
>>Interesting about the MM beeping. I wear hearing aids and a few times I swear I didn’t hear it either but just attributed it to my bad hearing after it looked like she was getting treats, but maybe those were leftover treats from a previous rep??>>
I could hear the grinding of the gears on the reps but I couldn’t always hear the beep. MMs are great but they are also temperamental LOL!
>> I felt weird just standing there, like how boring is this and did feel like I should be doing something.>>
And tugging between each rep will help too – it is more active and engaging for you both 🙂
>>WHAT IS THE VERBAL FOR TUNNEL THREADLE? I was looking for it and I couldn’t find it??? I was using assignment from Week 4. Is this in Week 9 which I haven’t done yet?>>
Yes, week 9:
Strike A Pose Part 3: Concept Transfer For Threadles (Slices)
>> So should I start doing Week 9 at this point although keeping tunnel at this length until I figure out how to support it extended out more?>>
Yes, the tunnel is pretty long so you can go to the next step of the tunnel games.
>>Sometimes I can’t tell with her, she really loves toys, all toys! 🙂 But I will pick something and try it, and also promise to play more between reps when she comes back to me.
Try something with fur an a squeaky as the higher value toy – that is often the winner LOL!
>> When she started noticing other things, it never occurred to me that might have been fallout from the collar grabs. Thanks for pointing that out!>>
When the pups start to notice other things in the middle of a training session (especially when those things were present at the beginning) then it is usually a response to *something* – low rate of success? A stressor? So I keep an eye out for that.
>So, will redo tunnels, Minny Pinny and Parallel Path before moving on to some of the other games.
I don’t think a redo is needed – you can do the next step, incorporating any tweaks. Trying to redo things that were good but trying to make them perfect will end up making you feel like you are stuck at the beginning 🙂 Minny Pinny doesn’t really have a next step in this class, so you can redo it or you can leave it in favor of other games (we have more minny pinny stuff in maxpup 2 :))
>>My number one reminder is more play and engagement. She is such a fun little partner always ready and happy to go out and play with me. I want to keep it that way. I do a lot of nosework with her, too.>>
Yes! Play and engagement are so important! And the more we learn about the science about sniffing, the more we realize that nosework is really important too!
Have fun 🙂
TracyHi!
It looks like he also is really enjoying the tunnel game! So you can a gentle collar touch as a game starter for the tunnel games too – start on super easy angles were you are sure he will be correct, touch his collar then immediately say tunnel tunnel tunnel and let go.For the harder games (like the threadle here) – no need to add the collar hold to start it yet – just start him on an easier angle on the hard turn side, so he has a high rate of success. Then it will be easy to add the collar holding back in as a game starter there too. He did well finding the entries here and he will keep getting better and better! Time to add more tunnel bags as he keeps getting bigger and faster 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>1st I just want to say, collar grabbing had a bad meaning at this time. When Charlie is doing something he should not be, I come and grab his collar to stop. I need to spend some time to feed right after grabbing collar, that I can overpower bad memories. For now I can see he is shutting down on me grabbing collar.>>
Ah yes, that is a good catch!! We definitely don’t want him to feel that collar grabbing is a bad thing, because we need him to want to put his collar in your hand as a happy thing! This is an important life skill, not just for puppy games LOL! 2 ideas for you to help deal with puppy badness 🙂 without damaging the collar love:
– when something is happening that you don’t want him to you, you can totally reach for his collar, gently interrupt, then redirect into something fun. So if my puppy is chewing on something he should not be chewing on (because, puppies….), I will gently take his collar to move him away and then immediately give him something better to chew on.
– you can also let him drag a light in the house, so that if you need to redirect him or stop something that is happening, you can pick up the leash and move him away.With both of these, I am always very neutral, I don’t say anything good or bad to the pup even when I am really mad LOL!, I just interrupt and redirect. And yes, do lots of feeding and toy games with the collar grab too – my 10000% favorite collar grab game is toy races: get his favorite toy or ball, gently hold his collar, throw the ball/toy, then let go. The collar grab then becomes a game starter 🙂
The video here is the tunnel video, can you repost the rocking horse video?
Thanks!Good morning!
The let’s go is going well! He was super engaged and easily ignored the stuff on the chair. YAY!!! He might be going around the chair because the game is very simple and the tunnel is there, so he is trying to approach the chair from the other side? It is a superstitious behavior, but nothing to worry about.
With this game, either hold the leash or take it off – dragging it is a middle ground that he doesn’t need to process 🙂 So you can add taking the leash off to this game and if he sticks with you, you can do the ‘let’s go’ marker and run back to the reward. That will simulate the leash coming off at the start line!
Serps – look at the stay at the beginning! Woot!! But then soooooo many questions from him – More on that below. First up, the serp part of it:
Thinking about the serp mechanics – by trying to work the stay and the serp, you sometimes rushed the serp mechanics so it was not always clear. To get the serp behavior, you needed to be more visible between the uprights (like at 3:54 and 4:13) and looking at the target hand. That is when he was very successful! Yay!
If you were too far past the jump (like at 1:21), or moving (like at 2:19), or looking at him – he had questions and errors. So keep the clean mechanics and you will see a higher rate of success.
One thing to reconsider, though: working too many skills in this session: serps with proper handler mechanics AND stay clarity. By trying to do both, they both got muddy. So to keep things clear and successful, make it one or the other at this point: serps or stays, not both. The serps can be done with tossed cookie starts like you did at the end, or with a holder.
One the serps, for now, because of his age and newness to serping – don’t use a bar because he was touching the bar while trying to figure out the serps and we don’t want touching the bar to be something that we accidentally build in. A bump or a pool noodle is better, so he can sort out his mechanics without us worrying if he touches the bar or not, even if the bar is locked in.
And if something goes awry, I TOTALLY would use a reset cookie at 1:22 and after other errors – I think you were trying to train two things at once here, which changed your energy when he was sometimes not correct (which he perceives as a marker for being incorrect). At 1:19, for example, you were past the wing so he really didn’t see serp position, plus you were looking at him and not at your serp hand. Since this is a handling game, assume dog errors are related to handler errors and always use a reset cookie.
Quote of the day:
“I think you should be doing a reset cookie in general.”
~ J. JuckettI agree, it does keep frustration lower by keeping the umbrella rate of reinforcement very high as he learns the skill. Jamie was giving good advice & coaching! And the two failure rule is critical to follow: it means that the pup doesn’t understand what we want, cannot produce the correct answer, so we need to change what we are doing (or end the session to plan a different approach). The ideal rate of success should be at or above 90%.
Looking at the stays – work his stays while you show serp position away from the jump. What was happening was that he was unsure of the release because it was being paired with your hand movement when you said the release and moved your hand into position at the same time. So he was starting to release on the hand movement: sometimes rewarded, sometimes told he was wrong. At 5:00 you asked if he was confused and yes, I think he was. We definitely do not want to build in any frustration or confusion into the stay behavior! Be SUPER protective of that stay and take it out of any handling training for now, to keep it a really fun and not confusing or frustrating thing.
So, separately from the jump, ask for a sit, put your serp hand out, say a quiet “gooooddddd” then follow it with a ‘catch’ thrown reward or a release to your hand (and reward). When you have multiple sessions of this under his belt with a high success rate (90% or higher, ideally) then you can replicate the session in front of a jump – but not releasing to the jump, just rewarding the stay.
Any time you are tempted to add a stay into the handling games from now… remind yourself of the long game we are playing here and keep the skills separate 🙂 Use a thrown cookie or a handler for the handling games.
Side note: my puppy just turned 6 months old on the 23rd and I have not yet added a stay to ANY of the baby dog handling games. I have just started dangling a toy to lower to the ground, or showing the target hand – all just in a stay, no jump or anything involved yet.
And note the difference when you started with the tossed treat: you were able to show clearer handler mechanics and he was far more successful. The only thing I would add is to look at the target hand and not at him.
I think it was a little too much to add in the threadles at the end here, it set up a few more errors which we want to avoid – partially because he had done a lot of reps already, and partially because he had just gotten a lot of ‘come over the bar’ reinforcement.
Part of that was his starting position too – so if he has trouble seeing the treats in the grass, you can go to the cheese balls like you mentioned, or put a towel out on the ground to toss the treat to, so it is easy for him to see. That will help get him to grab it and then come right back for the serp or threadle, whichever you are cuing. When you are doing serp AND threadle in the same session, you will want to use the threadle verbal to help him differentiate – so be sure to do a couple of sessions of that to attach the verbal if he hasn’t heard it yet.
On the second video –
The pattern game looked good! You can add walking back and forth, and definitely take it on the road to new places 🙂
He also did well with the rocking horse games! His commitment looks really good and he is also giving great feedback about the handling cues!
A couple of ideas for you:
To start a rep, use a cookie lure or hand touch to line him up at your side then slip your hand onto his collar, rather than collar holding and moving him into position by the collar. At 1:19, he was flailing a bit when you did that, so the mechanics of starting that rep were not as clean or smooth for both of you.Make massive connection on the exit of each wrap – very direct eye contact. When you pointed forward and didn’t connect, he didn’t know where to be. For example, at 1:27 you had a big disconnect as you moved forward so he ended up on th other side, with the toy being the visible thing. Same thing happened at 1:44 but and 1:52. Compare that to 2:15, 3:07, 4:34, 4:37, which all had great connection! Yay!! He was not being naughty about the toy, he just wasn’t seeing the connection.
Putting the toy away is fine (because it prevents you from switching it from hand-to-hand :)) but his questions were more of a connection issue. A general rule of thumb is that if the pup ends up on the ‘wrong’ side of us, then we were disconnected and the pup was guessing (and not being naughty :)) so you can reward and then strengthen the connection on the next rep by using more eye contact and less arm/hands.
Also be hyper protective of your stays here (I know, I know, I am a PITA hahahahaha) – at 4:08 you cued a sit, so he did, good boy! And he stayed, SUPER good boy! But then at 4:11 he moved and then you started the handling so that rehearses a broken stay. If you ask for a sit, be sure to release it before he moves. Or, don’t ask for a sit 🙂 If you need to plan something, he can mill around for a moment, then you can line him up to start when you are ready.
>> I started with pattern game and then the barrel– he was walking!
I think at the end he was indeed hot! And he is not used to working in heat or humidity. And also using food as not as stimulating as the toy, so you can have the toy in a pocket then whip it out at the end of the rep to keep things super fun 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
