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>>I didn’t let him have it until after he brought me the thing and gave the toy back. Is showing the reward to be earned something I need to phase out?>>
It depends on where the behavior will be used. In this case, I think the the egg/pumpkin plate was a remote reinforcement: go do the thing and afterwards, we go get the reinforcement. I think it can work really well!!
T
Hi! This went really well!!!
Good job getting a really high success rate but also having good challenges in there.
Some little suggestions:
stay on the flat – if you are working towards an agility stay, you don’t need to face him (unless you are specifically assuming the obedience stay position) – and you can toss the toy back after the catch cue while you stay in motion (I recommend this staying in motion for all behaviors with the catch procedure so he doesn’t pair you stopping/looking at him with the release)
You can sometimes stop your motion – and when you do that, insert some praise between your stop and whatever happens next (the catch then toss, or the release forward) – on the last stay rep he wanted to move as you stopped so we don’t want him to anticipate the release when you stop or look at him.Stay in front of jump – also super! Your position was better here in terms of facing forward more.
He doesn’t quite have the whole “stay there it is coming to you” thing down pat yet (he was moving forward when you said catch but I think that was lack of experience with this scenario. More importantly, he had a good time, high success rate, and it will get better with the ‘don’t release forward’ – maybe throw the toy behind him to help him want to not move forward as much. And as with the stay on the flat – you can be moving while you say catch then toss on some of the reps, you don’t have to stop all the time.The 2o2o on the plank also looked good! You will want to add in staying in motion on this one too (I am pretty sure the demo video shows staying in motion on the teeter 2o2o and doing the catch/toss back while I continued to move forward). You can also ramp up your speed – you ha a fast walk going here, so you can ramp it up to a jog then a run!
>> However, towards the end, Cowboy wasn’t as wowed by the Lotus Ball. With a tennis ball, he will continue to engage with it but with the Lotus Ball, he lost interest once he removed the food (dead toy syndrome, I guess).>>
I think that is fine – the function of the Lotus Ball is to be a food delivery mechanism, so it makes sense that he was not as interested in it when there was no food involved. I can relate – the Fritos bag is boring after I have eaten all the Fritos LOL!!! So you can totally keep doing this with a ball (the arousal from the ball will add challenge for sure!) and also the lotus ball can have food in it.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Getting the ball back is going to be successful and fairly easy I think. We’re already making some small progress on this just by me giving the ball back to Annie.
Perfect!
>>>Staying in the weaves without hand watching is going to be hard because Annie really doesn’t have “remote” skills, but I feel like I know where to begin with this. The toy on a stool seems like an easy way to start. Also, I might be able to build a little value for the manners minder by sending Annie to it and then giving her the ball, kind of like what Contraband did on the demo video with getting the ball first, then the toy.>>
Thinking back to my Rat Terrier, Rebound, who thought that my touching the pocket was a click – I also did something to help break that habit by asking him to do a relatively easy thing (NOT weaves LOL!) and I repeatedly touched my pocket in the “I am pulling out a cookie” motion – when he did the thing and stopped obsessing on the pocket, I gave him a reward from the table behind him or from my other hand. I think I did this with 2o2o targeting, but it can really be anything. Alas, this was 100 years ago so there is no video (2004 maybe?) but I remember he had to learn to take his eyes off the hand moving to the pocket. You can do this maybe with a hand touch? What other simple things does she know? Then we can work it up to the weaves.
>>However with the speed goal at lessons, I’m having trouble figuring out where to begin. Over the summer I worked shorter sequences at lessons, breaking each course into about 3 sections, but it didn’t really translate to an increase in overall speed.
Shorter sequences don’t necessarily translate to more speed. You might need to do shorter sequences, but type and placement of reinforcement will make a big difference. For now, start with getting her to do some tricks with you (not agility, just some trick) with the big reinforcement on a table behind her somewhere. Next week we will build on it and add more speed-specific procedures.
>>I wonder if I should break my goal down into something more specific, like driving fast to the end of the contacts. Annie can probably take a full second off her dogwalk and A-frame just by running down the ramps instead of creeping down them. I can get a fast dw at home after a few reps of throwing the ball once she gets to the end. It’s definitely a habit to be slow on the way down though, especially at lessons.>>
>>>>What do you think about this idea of focusing on contacts? Is this a good first step toward increasing motivation and speed? If so, is there a specific game that would help me get started? >>Well, taking a full second off will definitely help! The get it procedure (throwing it forward as soon as she hits position) can help provided that you do not lose control over the behavior because she anticipates and self-releases. I use the catch for that, throwing the reward back the instant the dog hits the position (it is in this week’s demo video).
I don’t think speedier contacts will also increase speed through jumps and tunnels – it won’t hurt, but probably won’t make them faster.
>> Also, would you get the down ramp speed going great consistently at home before working on it at lessons?
Yes, and also work only the down ramp speed at lessons rather than doing the whole obstacle.
>> Lastly, I know I would reward the great reps, but what about the mediocre reps? Do those get rewarded too?>>
I do! I reward anything that is correct because marking speed is nearly impossible. And I mark it fast with a high value reinforcement, and the placement of the reward is what helps produce the speed. Tell the dog “that was not fast enough” never produces speed and accuracy – in fact, they either slow down to be correct, or they get frustrated and check out. So I reward it. I *might* save the best rewards for super fast & accurate behavior, depending on the dog, but also I wind the dog up before each rep so they are ready to go fast 🙂
Tracy
An old sock: Perfect! And inexpensive LOL!!! You can use a really long old sock and let him tug on it (I have filled old socks with food in the pas to get tugging, not sure if he needs this). Does he also like to tug on old slippers? You can also try tugging on bully sticks or any chew bones – anything can be a tug toy 🙂
T
Hi!
>>then running to the van with them, saying “cookies in the car” over and over until we get them. Of course, that phrase might seem strange in our backyard or indoors at home…..
What if you said something like “car cookies!” so car became the salient word and paired it with cookies? And also, you can use your van in some home training to teach her that running back to the van means cookies and not a trip to the vet LOL!
>> I don’t anticipate being able to use discs as a reward at trials. So I guess I need to decide if a disc retrieve is what I want/need. At least the way it is now I get some exercise, too, picking up the discs she drops in my vicinity. ;). I think I’m more interested in working on a tug. That’s something I could use at classes and trials. I’ve just never had a tugger, but I think Keiko might cooperate…..>>
Yes, you can totally work on tugging! How is she at home with tugging? Amd the other thing you can do is work on transferring tugging to the frisbee: for my Hot Sauce, as she was beginning her agility trial and flyball tournament careers, I used the frisbee as a tug toy and also attached it to a longer toy and was able to do short tosses and tugging on it. I am sure I have video of that somewhere. When she got really confident in those environments, I transitioned her to a normal tug toy and now she is a normal tugger and not a frisbee chaser LOL! But I still use double tennis balls for UKI NFC trials, that is her absolute favorite!
Tracy
Hi!
>>This is a great example of me having a plan but focusing on mechanics took a lot of mental energy for me. I’m sluggish and thinking too much. Flashbacks to your previous course where I should have rehearsed first.>>
I htink it is actually a great example of you being too hard on yourself 🙂 This went well! And yes, mechanics are mentally draining for human and dog – and when yo uare being precise with mechanics, things will slow down and that is a good good very good thing 🙂
Remote reinforcement – I agree that he didn’t know wha this was about at the beginning, possibly because you moved away really fast and possibly because there was a frsibee out ahead (be sure to ‘clean’ the environment so he doesn’t get confused). To make this clear right fromt the start, you can make it look more like what the trial ring entry would look like: use a chair or something to leave the toy on make it more of an obvious: “we leave this here”. Then walk away with him (try not to let him put himself into a sit) and encourage him to come with you if he puts himself in a sit stay. And then you pick it up and give it to him off the chair when you go back to it, which will also closely mirror a trial ring exit. He is picking this up really nicely!
Placed reinforcement – In the early part of this session, you can totally keep moving so you and the reinforcement are not near each other and also so there is not a sudden eplxosion of motion when you add motion (that was part of the reason he went through the wing). Your mechanics at 2:10 were great and he did super well going past the toy, to get the toy 🙂 Yay!
And I did feel overall that he was engaged with the toys and tugging, so yes, he probably just needed a poop break at the end LOL!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I do love mountains and Nuptse sounded familiar, so Itook to google to research a bit about Nuptse and Changste 🙂Glad you liked the zoom chat, it was really fun! We have another zoom chat this Saturday, at noon, I think! I will post the link today.
Yes – we need to get a little more separation between the mark and the hand movement of the get it but it will work out fine. He was a little surprised when you switched to the toy at first but then he figured it out.
Yes, the out’give part probably needs more reinfrocement for him to be able to give it back more readily, but to be honest – I love that he loves this toy so I don’t mind giving him an extra moment or two to shake it around and then a litle while longer to out it 🙂 You can reward the give with a cookie too, that speeds things up a lot.>> when there is such a short time between the release and the get it, perhaps, I should use shshshsh instead of get it!
The marker you use will depend on the location of the toy – if he moves away from you to get it and it is not really moving much and he can grab it right away… it is a get it. If you will be swooshing it around and moving, and you want him to chase it and not just grab it – then it is a shhhhh. Based on what you did here, I think get it was the correct marker. To get more time between the give and the get it, insert a little cookie reinforcement and a little praise 🙂
Great job here! Have a fabulous Thanksgiving!
TracyHi!
The oopsie was hilarious, he was both proud of himself and then stressed himself out about it lol!!
The procedure overall looks good! We are going to add things to it like leash on/off, putting it in front of obstacles, extending the number 9f obstacles, etc. But I do agree that it conflicts with the other use for cookies. Now, dogs are brilliant and I am sure he will figure it out based on context and the bowl, but you can also maybe add a different word before cookies to clarify even more.
Also, you can use his relax/tug mat too!!! The mat can be his exit reward.
Let me know what you think! Great job here 🙂
TracyGood morning!
Great job here! The placement and timing of the reinforcement looked great and so she immediately picked up the behavior. Yay!
Remember to stay closer to the start wing – don’t get too far ahead or you will end up having to stand still, which could pull her off the backside (like at :14, you had to decelerate a little. You kept moving really well on a lot of them and got to the takeoff side on a lot too! She looked at you like you were a little nuts there so you can throw sooner – that is a skill she will see on German turns, for example, so it is good to show her what it looks like.She did have little questions when you were lateral, slowing down a bit – I think mainly you can start the backside cue sooner, before she really finishes the wing wrap – the question might have been waiting for info.
And, to be sure she is really processing the cues: Balance with some fronts now too! As she finishes the wrap, you can call her and then use a front cue, or you can start the backside cue.
Sorry to hear about your knee!!! Hopefully it heals up soon so you can get back to running 🙂
Great job here!!
TracyGood morning! Really nice session here, this will be a useful skill when she is at trials! And it will help build confidence too 🙂
She definitely likes the food bag! I snorted out loud at :38 when she looked back at the bag as if you were crazy to leave it there. The look on her face was priceless LOL!!!A question about the specific marker that indicates that the food or toy is now available: I think for the food it was cookies, but it was harder to tell with the toy. Ideally, you have one marker for both, meaning “now we proceed to the reward I left outside the ring’. You are totally welcome to have separate markers for type of reward but it is one less verbal to remember if you only use one marker for this specific placement 🙂 And that will also help keep it distinct from any other cookie or toy markers – basically, it means “we are now going to the magical reward table” LOL so she knows where to look and how to earn the reinforcement when there is nothing in your hand or pockets : )
For disc retrieves, I have found that having 2 discs is helpful: if the dog brings the first one back, I throw the second one. That has allowed me to get a good retrieve and now I don’t need the 2 discs anymore 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi Shelly and Lou, welcome!!!!
Good question about the pre-game! Having a nose touch to your hand is great 🙂 For where this game is going (next week, I promise we will use it LOL!) having some type of big obvious target in your hand will really help – a flat lid or something that is big enough to see but easy for you to hold. We need it to be salient and really pop out against the distracting stuff we are going to have it near 🙂Can’t wait to hear more about Lou!
TracyHi! Yes, it takes time to build – I have found that the less I worry about it and the more I just kinda throw things around and make toys just plaything (and not training devices) – the faster the toy drive builds LOL! Strange but true 🙂 I have 3 young dogs right now so I didn’t have time to worry much about the toy drive with 2 of them, I just used whatever they liked and added in throwing some toys around. If they didn’t like the toy? Fine, I moved to something else because I had 3 of them to train LOL! That completely took the pressure off of all of us (because we can train amazing agility dogs with food only, if they don’t like toys – there are world champions trained with food only!) and now guess what – they all like toys in training 🙂
So take your time and have fun!
TracyGood morning!
It is very cool to see green grass in late November in Minnesota!!!>> I have taken a couple of rounds of an online toy class with her and she is interesting. She has definite feelings about how things should be.
That is good, though! A dog that brings opinions to the session is a super fun dog to train! And also, paying attention to her feelings about how things should be will make your life as a trainer exponentially easier 🙂 I feel that we sometimes try to fit all the dogs into the same box in terms of how/when/where/what of the reinforcement but that can create frustration. Figuring out what she likes and building on that will help her training be easy and super fun!
Focus Forward:
Yes, better toy choice needed plus you are waiting too long to let her go – she is looking back at you on the first rep (2nd rep was better) Yo can try this toy inside a Hollee rollerYou can use the short version of this game ot build value for dead toys by dropping it right in front of her, no running, let it be dead for a few seconds while you do a bit of “ready….ready…” then let her go and when she pounces on it, you can have a big tug party
Drive to handler
The stay works really well! Good job waiting for her to swallow the darned cookie before she got the toy LOL!
Have you hand closer to your leg, right on the seam of your pantsAbout the cookie toss start – I am more interested in building value for cookies than I am about building speed with her. She has a TON of speed already so…. we can use this chase da momma game to build value for food: toss the treat, a really good one, when the other dogs are watching – then when she swallows it and looks up: chase da momma for the toy! You don’t need a second cookie when she arrives at you. If she tries to NOT eat the tossed treat, you toss t again til she eats it (no chasing if she doesn’t eat the treat. No dessert if she doesn’t eat her veggies haha)
Keep working the shaped wing wrap because the foundation ends up being wicked strong, particularly in terms of being able to commit to doing the thing even when cookies/toys/distractions are right there.
Blind cross foundation: you were good here! And she was perfect of course because you were very clear. But you don’t have to stand still, you can be walking forward if her stay is strong enough (and I am betting it is). Blinds do feel super weird when we are stationary!
The only suggestion about the toy is to have your toy arm touching your stomach as you present it – that will keep you from over rotating as you connect and reward across your body.
So add in moving. You can also add in more of her motion, by having someone hold her like a restrained recall, so you can build up to running and she can race into the blinds.Prop with food and toy:
Ah, this is fun!! Yet another reason to shape on a rando prop: build the food value up! She actually looked like she was enjoying the food LOL! Good choice of toy to pair it with, that made the whole game seem a lot more reinforcing. And a nice side effect here is that she has to unfreeze in the presence of the toy and not just wait for you to throw it – offering behavior in the face of something like that is hard but really important!
I am happy with how this is moving along because it is serving the primary purpose of giving you an easy procedure for building food love. You can do a couple more short sessions like this on the prop and on any thing you would normally shape with food. You can also add in a bit of the sending to the prop, I think she would enjoy the action! But still use the food-then-toy procedure.Nose touch to target:
OMG she was almost pushy about the food here! Did you see her bop the cookie hand? Love that! It was a ‘gimme the cookie’ moment which is exactly what we want. And you had an actual hard press to the target at about :48. SUPER!
I think the only thing to add here is picking up the toy off the ground before you presented the target – it was a little too hard to ignore the toy in favor of the target for now.I am super happy with how this is going! This is a good game to take to new places too to help transfer the food drive to new places as well.
>> In response to the food questions – she does now reliably eat her meals and does so pretty quickly. This has improved dramatically in the last 4 months.
I think she is growing up! Maturity is helpful for sure.
>>Now she eats all of her meals (she used to skip some meals or leave food). If we do a “treats with friends” type game where other dogs are outI used to train her before her breakfast and it did not really make a noticeable difference in her attitude towards cookies. Now I train her after her breakfast and she actually does better. >>
Yay for ‘treats with friends” LOL! And I agree about training after breakfast – I have seen this be helpful for ALL dogs, in terms of better engagement and better sessions. Food powers the brain, so having a breakfast is helpful! And there was just a study released about glucose and training or depletion in dogs, and basically how it is helpful when they have eaten.
>>I have been in a pattern that first we would do what I wanted to do (i.e., some obedience type training or foundations), then we would get to do what Dellin wanted to do (i.e., go outside for frisbee). The frisbees are the highest value objects (chase) and she’s quite skilled at catching them.>>
Why not start with what she wants to do? Make the act of heading into a training session the BEST THING and treat is like a sandwich: Dellin’s choice, Joan’s choice, Dellin’s choice. You’ll create a really strong positive conditioned response to beginning the training session if the favorite games/easiest games are front loaded, plus it loads the success rate way up in case the harder stuff is more challenging.
>>Question about the GOAT game. Dellin is older and basically full grown, so won’t fit on a lot of things anymore that you recommend. As a young puppy, she did lots of empowerment type games, walking on surfaces and climbing on props (at home and in her in person puppy class). She now stands on unstable surfaces (fitbones) too. What do you suggest I do with respect to this game?
You can make more of a big playing surface with multiple things pushed together – 2 or 3 fitbones, or a hodgepodge of various things for her to stand on and balance. The hodgepodge approach might even be more challenging because she will have to think about each foot/leg dealing with a different surface!
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> So, I’ll use my older dog’s “push” for backside in general. Would I use “push” “check check” for push to the back side and then wrap the wing circling to your right and “push” “dig dig” for backside with wing wrap to his left? OR – God Forbid – do I need even more words? First of all I’m seriously running out of clever/natural/easy to remember verbals. I literally have a “Ripley Glossary” in my Notion with 70 words (everything from behavior cues, to LSMs to agility verbals). >>
I totally feel this pain! But yes… I recommend 2 separate backside send verbals – the push is for the slice or any similar exit. And a separate cue for the complete circle wrap (360 degrees around the entry wing). This is especially important with the bigger dogs, because the approach to the entry wing is completely different fr a slice versus a wrap on the backside. In the happy times when we didn’t have nearly as many words, we would only use one word but my biggest dog told me clearly and unequivocally that one word and then relying on handler info or an additional verbal was late late late late late. The problem solver was adding a verbal that was for the wrap. And I wonder how many errors I could have prevented with my older dogs if I had 2 distinct cues… live and learn 🙂
>>Second of all, I seriously worry that in the moment I’ll pick the wrong one (even if I walk the course saying the words to myself, what if something changes and suddenly he’s going a different direction or something unexpected). >>
Yep, that is a concern for sure! I have found by getting these verbals going in puppy training, it becomes reflexive for us humans. I am far better with the verbals for my 3 youngsters (who all did the demos in these classes with the verbals) than I ever was with the older dogs – all of the puppy training practice has embedded it into my soggy brain LOL!!! So it turns out to be not as hard as I thought it would be, because by the time they are running courses, I have been practicing for about 18 months.
>>>So much to think about vs the good old days when we used to just run in straight lines until a tunnel turned us around for the most part.
Those were happy times. And remember when our only verbals were a few obstacle names, and how loud we called the dog’s name? LOL! Good times for sure 🙂 And I remember congratulating myself for being able to run full courses silently hahahaha oh my, how times have changed!
>>So, on this. I’ve noticed that with this toy (and it is his favorite) he can sometimes have a hard time getting a satisfying grip on it when I just let it dangle in mid air. Sometimes I’ll drop the hollee roller part down on the ground as I’m going and that makes it easier for him. Sometimes when he’s really coming in hot and I don’t want him to have to deflate on the toy grab I’ll hold it with both hands leaving a central place for him to grab and then let go of 1 end when he’s firmly on it. He likes this a lot when we’re doing stuff with more movement. I bet I could do that but keep the onside hand/arm really low, offside arm up higher but really rotated across and get a safe, clean grab without losing the connection. What do you think?>>
I think we can take a best-of-both-worlds approach. One of the things built into the games is the mechanics of reinforcement delivery, to balance the natural likes/dislikes of the pups with how we would eventually like to deliver reinforcement (having a relatively unlimited toolbox). I think you can shape the grip by having it dangle until he is opening his mouth to reach for it, then bring your other hand over to help get the strong grip, tug a bit, back to one hand, etc. So basically the will learn to come in hot for the dangled toy (which is a really useful reinforcement procedure) but also get a really strong satisfying grip on the toy for a good game of tug 🙂 It will take quick mechanics and connection to see what he is doing – but based on what I have already seen you do, this is going to be easy for you, you have great mechanics. And good connection is great for this game anyway 🙂
He looks great on his wobble board stuff! Hopefully he has tired for the zoom call LOL! We want him to be happy and confident on random moving surfaces and he is doing great with that! A couple of ideas for you to advance the game even more!
– you were moving back and forth with him and he was perfectly happy to move and wobble the boards. So now the next step is to be stationary (or fade your movement if he has trouble with you standing still) and let him offer moving the board. You can toss a treat and let him get back on it, slamming it back down, or you can hand deliver a treat on the board and see if he will over moving to the other side of it to get it to move (this will be easier on the big wobble board).
I am glad to see that you have tugging happening on the wobble board! Yay! You can get the toy even lower, elbow height for him, so he really leans back. A game I play is the “I’m gonna pull you off” game where I gently and slow increase my pull on the toy – if the dog leans back enough on the wobble board, then I will let him win the toy. If he moves forward off the board, I win the toy 🙂 It is a very gradual process so the dog wins a lot 🙂 I have video somewhere, I will see if I can find it – it is great for teeter weight shift.
And if you are not already doing this – you can add in cued position changes on the wobble board (stand to sit, stand to down, sit to stand) because they are great for balance and also a bit of turning around (not too fast though, it is too hard to balance when they spin really fast.
I also like wobble board road trips where I move it to different surfaces so there are difference noises – tile, concrete, wood, mats, etc. If the new surface is really noisy then I will put a couple of towels under the board to dampen the noise a little at first so the dog is not startled. And at home, I will put stuff under the wobble board: crinkly paper, a set of keys, crinkly empty plastic water bottle. Anything that can add a new sound is fair game.
This can all apply to the mini teeter board too, he was perfectly awesome on that too and is ready for more challenge. Yay! One note on the mini teeter, looking ahead to the future:
If you are targeting at the end with the 2o2o, I would put in a target for him to move (depending on how you trained the position initially) to so he is not locking onto your feet or the stopping of your motion. Eventually you’ll want to be able to run by the end of the contact while he stops (like a 2o2o on a teeter) so we put that concept in as soon as the dog is asked for the stop, so it is always completely independent of your position. That saves us time in the future 🙂Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
