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Good morning!
>>This is just a quick set point to see how 5′ looked. I did 5′ and then the last 2 were 4′. I think she was getting tired at the end.
I liked the 5 foot distance here! She did well with the 4 foot distance, but it didn’t have as much power as th 5 foot distance. The only thing I would change is to have the toy further from the 2nd jump before you release – it was about 5 or 7 feet from the jump, so to release her when the toy is 10-12 feet from the jump to get more power through the striding. She was a perfect girlie with the toy dragging, so I htink this will be easy for her.
Remind me what she has seen with jump bars so far? She is doing well and I would like to put a bar on the 2nd jump for her – of there was no bar here, add one at 8 inches. If there was a bar already there, move it up to 8. If it was at 8″ already, move it to 10″ 🙂
>>I think I ruined my toy drive 🤦♀️😂 she loves cheese puffs so when practicing Smiley Face and she wasn’t interested in her toy, I put cheese balls in a lotus ball. She didnt want her toy for set point. I do think the back yard is more Distracting and she did have to chase a deer out during our practice….bad Tali, stupid deer. She was trotting until I put the lotus ball on a line and then she was going better.
You didn’t ruin it LOL! I also love cheese puffs, so I can relate to how delicious they are. If the backyard is very distracting, then you can separate the toy play from the training games for now – when working a training game, use the lotus ball on the line. And when just noodling around and NOT training, throw a toy around and get a little wild and silly with it 🙂 She DOES have good toy drive, so now we just need to bring it out in distracting environments. And if there is a deer in your yard, you can totally switch to food to stand a chance against that massive distraction!!! If deer visits and deer chasing are regular occurences, you can alsohave her on leash and reward her for ignoring them and not chasing 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Ewwww, winter. I guess I won’t complain about our weather here LOL!
Great job on the videos here! All 3 of these games require coordination and lead changes – which fast young dogs would like to skip over LOL!!! But she is doing really well 🙂
On the left/right minny pinny: she wants to go all the fast but this one requires significant coordination… so the left/right turns towards you were really strong, she recognized those immediately. She did really well turning away but it was a lot of mental work because she had trouble with the coordination. No worries, she will figure it out because she is naturally a coordinated dog. So for now, 2 ideas:
Change the reward placement so that she is pulling across the front of you and not coming into a ‘front’ position where you face her. You will be facing forward as if having completed a FC and she will come to your side as if heading to the next line (I reward with the outside arm across my body for those, which is a little untraditional 🙂 but works really well!!) This will help her continue to organize herself over the 3rd bar, and will also help with serpentines because there is built-in reinforcement for getting in next to you, like she needs to do for serps.
Also, since she is working on coordination of turning away, lock in the bar to the jump cups, if possible, or use bumps so she can sort herself out without knocking or rolling bars.
Serps – Serps are hard indeed! The toy on the ground was part of the issue (see toy, run to toy LOL!) but we really want the toy on the ground for placement of reinforcement and head position, and we also really want you to not add extraneous handling cues of decel and extra rotation.
So 2 ideas:
separately from a jump, put a toy on the ground, and then assume the serp position (aka strike a pose position) and have her come in for a hand touch with the ‘serp’ arm – them use a marker to indicate the toy. She probably just needs a little refresher on this 🙂Do it standing still – and when she can do that, start to walk 🙂 That can help establish that the toy is not a lure for the line, but rather a placement that will come after a marker.
For working on the jump – it is very easy for BCs to run past serp jumps, as you know 🙂
>>(reminded me of her mom at this age)>>
Clearly genetic, blame the breeder. HA! KIDDING!!!! 🙂
But we don’t want you to have to decel or indicate a big arm cue over the bar or anything, so instead – angle the jump so as she exits the wing, the front of the bar is basically facing her. The toy will still be on the ground, your serp running will be the same – but it will be so much easier to take the jump now. The jump can start perpendicular to where it is now, if that is what she needs so you can keep moving. Then, you will gradually angle the jump back to that ‘flat’ serp type of jump – very gradually, over the course of several sessions. And when we put serp jumps into sequences, start with an angled jump so she can see it. That will reduce failure and build success, without you having to change the handling cue or run with the toy in your hand.
Here is a sneak peak from the next MaxPup with what I mean about angled jumps for serps, so the handler can keep running:
(the serp jump is the jump after the tunnel with baby Contraband here – think of the tunnel as where the wing would be and the next jump is the angle she needs to see – either this angle or an even easier one)
For the zig zags:
These can take a couple of sessions to solidify because they are pretty hard! Having these closer makes the quickness and coordination of the lead changes a LOT harder – so I think helping with your position was great! You can also help by tossing the toy to the push side of the wing when she does it, that can help her look for those pushes more and be less interested in running straight to you and the toy 🙂 Also reward some stays – she looked a little cheaty on that last one LOL!Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, the hidden toy is stage 2 🙂
Can you us a longer toy, or tie that one to something so you can swing it around more?Keep me posted on how today goes!
TracyHi!
>>My puppy was frustrated today at a seminar and I want to avoid what happened from happening again.
A few variables- the environment changed- the set up of training space And I was super nervous
The skill we worked on- basically wrapping cones she has very clear verbal cues but today the words changed based on the seminar I was in. After a couple reps she left me and stole a toy. >>I can’t say I blame her. How can I help her be more resilient? >>
I don’t think it is a question of resilience, as that implies that the dog should bounce back from big changes or lower success – that is not something a 5 month puppy needs to worry about. I would think of it as how to set up the training environment so that all roads lead to the game and a very high success rate. It sounds like the environment had too many alternate opportunities and she doesn’t fully understand how to make choices you would like all the time especially when trying to train something new or different.
So the first thing would be to reduce the environmental stimuli and set up a clean training environment:
– smaller training area, using gates if needed so she has some room but not a full arena of room 🙂
– no access to toys that she might steal and run off with. If she is going to take the toy and not bring it back… it simply cannot be within reach to allow it to happen. If you are using a toy, it can be tucked away in your pants or held.These will limit the options for reinforcement, and puppies are the masters of seeking positive reinforcement so she is going to turn to you more.
With that in mind: that is where we humans have to do the rest with our reinforcement 🙂 Starting with splitting the behaviors into tiny chunks really works, slicing as thinly as needed to help build understanding and a high rate of success. And, since we humans are often learning mechanics and a new cue and trying to do ALL the things while working a baby puppy, 3 ideas to keep the rate of reinforcement really high:
– change up the type/value of reinforcement a lot, so there is novelty to it
-practice the mechanics without the puppy (she is in a crate) so we can nail the mechanics fluently and THEN bring the pup into the picture.
– in between reps of the ‘skill’, I do reset rewards to keep the umbrella rate of reinforcement very high especially if I am competing with environmental factors.
What I mean by that is: there are 2 rates of reinforcement happening at the same time: the skill-specific rate (for the skill we are trying to train) and the umbrella rate (for all the the things that happen between reps :))So yes, we try to reinforce a lot of the skill specific stuff but in between – those are the critical moments. I get a reward in for the skill, then get some tugging, do a trick for a cookie or tug, reset at my side with a cookie to get the precise line up and great mechanics… then do a rep of the skill again. So the skill might get 1 reinforcement, and there are 3 or 4 more for the umbrella rate of reinforcement.
And if I mess of the rep? Well, my reinforcement bank account is so rich that the dog doesn’t really care – if I mess up the rep and don’t want to reinforce, I can go right into the reset routine of trick/cookie, line up/cookie, and back to the next rep.Going back to building resilience: two things happen when you watch both rates of reinforcement:
– the pup develops a positive conditioned emotional response to the environment and the work, and they won’t want to leave it.
– the pup won’t check out if there is a skill error, but the skill error predicts that reinforcement is still available from her interactions with you.The most common error is dog training especially sport dog training is that people don’t watch the umbrella rate… they only watch the skill-specific rate. The umbrella rate creates the positive CER which bleeds over to the skills and everything else. If the umbrella rate is too low, and the skill rate drops for whatever reason (we are human, we mess up a lot LOL!) then the pup will totally get frustrated and call and Uber and check out to find reinforcement elsewhere.
>>I want to be clear and not have her feel like what we are doing is not absolutely awesome>>
Umbrella rate – covers you for when yo are clean and not clear, it is all sandwiched by awesomeness.
<<I also notice that when we work on building layers- she does them, she gets her rewards- no failures,but after her reward she , if allowed will want to run off and be done. It’s the complexity and it’s not that she didn’t have the understanding of each piece. you could look at the proofing game with the wing and tunnel- she can rock it and after maybe two reps of doing the wing vs the tunnel ( she prefers tunnel) she would prefer to exit stage left.>>
This goes to umbrella rate too. The skill like the proofing game doesn’t have enough value yet (she is only 5 months old, right? And that is not that exciting of a game) to hold attention when competing with the environment. But the in between stuff that creates the umbrella rate sure does. That si where you can run around, play, get silly and reward all of that action, before going back to the crisper (and more boring, zzzzz) mechanics of the training games. And clean up your training environment… train in a space where she can’t exit stage left to seek reinforcement elsewhere. In order to be able to build up the value of the desired skills, you need to eliminate the opportunities to leave for the running around self-reinforcement.
Going back to your first sentence:
>> My puppy was frustrated today at a seminar and I want to avoid what happened from happening again.>>
There is a young dog on our flyball team that wants to chase other dogs. She can do the full pattern (4 jumps, box, ball, 4 jumps) but will immediately leave the pattern to chase. Replace that behavior in your sentence:
“My puppy chased other dogs at a seminar and I want to avoid what happened from happening again”So we changed the environment so she could NOT chase and so she could get all sorts of reinforcement for the skill and the play in between – the umbrella rate and the skill rate cloth increased dramatically and the self-reinforcement stopped. So now she is able to do runs at tournaments and ignore other dogs. So cool!
>>I have not had dogs like this in many years and I want to be better for her. She’s quick and busy and that doesn’t help. She wants me to have my act together 150 percent of the time.>>
She is a pretty normal girl dog LOL!! And from high drive working lines. That type of dog basically shouts, “GET YER SH*T TOGETHER, HUMAN!” LOL. But also, that is the best type of dog 🙂 And yes, she will help you sort out the mechanics and reinforcement – and then amazeballs things are going to happen. I know it will, she is so cool!!!!!!!!
let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This was overall good! I’m happy with how she did so far and not worried about the daddy distraction 🙂
A couple of ideas for you:
Before your run, some time earlier in the day, go close to the ring and do the pattern games so she can acclimate. Then do some tricks and toy play. Then back to the crate 🙂
Before the run, you can do the practice jump and tricks, that’s all good! But when you get close to the ring, do your pattern games again and more tricks (rather than being too calm or stationary).
Then, and this is the biggest suggestion:
Go into the ring with the toy in your hand, not your pocket (I think it was in your pocket here). I want her to know you are training, just like at home, for now. And when you reward her, run and get her to chase for your the reward. Wheeee!
No worries about the daddy distraction, that was hard (your motion rather right towards the daddy even though you said tunnel). And MASSIVE THANKS to him for the video!!!!
Let me know what you think!Hi!
The forum is open until April 1st, so you can keep posting!On this video:
>>what I thought was an independent word she definitely told me was not!
Correct – she is reading your footwork and not the verbal.
So these were all handled backside lines – you stepped to the backside wing on all of them which is why when you didn’t step to it or you tried to move away… she went to the front side. At 1:35 you said something about not saying it 85 times… you can TOTALLY say it 85 times and in fact, I encourage you to say it more than once to help her process it with all of the other things that would be going on while running a course. But, she is not relying on the verbal here at all – it is all about whether you step to the backside properly or not (regardless of what you say in that moment).To get the verbal something she can respond to independently of your motion, set the game up differently so it is not about stepping to the backside at all, it is about the verbal.
To do that, lay a leash on the ground and move forward on the line of the leash so you are not stepping to the backside then rocking back you will just be walking directly forward and NOT stepping to the wing.
At first, the leash will go straight from where the wing meets the bar to where you are standing. You will hold her collar, start saying the verbal, then let go and just walk straight while continuing to say the verbal. No big steps to the backside, and keep walking forward along the line of the leash until she takes the backside. Then reward her when she takes it. When she is very successful like that for a session or two, you can move the line of the leash over to approximately the center of the bar – and walk straight up the line while saying the verbal. That can help the verbal cue override the handling and eliminate the need for you to get close to the wing or do a big step to it.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! These look really strong!!!!
First wrap was great, so tight and fast!!
Then you di a bunch of left turns – she was terrific. You were cuing and leaving earlier than needed and she was GREAT about staying on the jump and making a lovely left turn. Be sure to show her the jump after the left, keep your shoulder open and keep moving like Jamie said 🙂 When you stopped moving and/or closing your shoulder forward, she was coming off the line. The last wrap away from you looked good too! Yay! All of the pieces are coming together so nicely in time for NAC 🙂 The only thing I would add to this is to do some big GO GO GO lines after the tunnel: you can do the wrap, then drive back into the tunnel and GO GO GO up the line back to where you started, to keep a lot of value of the Go line.Great job!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I totally agree that he was really uncomfortable with the pressure of running towards a dog that was barking at him, even a dog he knows pretty well. He was going wide, yes, but giving other classic stress and avoidance signs (glancing away, running past jumps, leaving to sniff, peeing on the tunnel, full body shake). So it is hard to assess response to the verbals because the environment was so hard. He did a lot better when the pressure was removed, but also it changes his conditioned response to the environment: the pressure plus the failures produce a negative conditioned response, which is partially why you have to work really hard to get him engaged and aroused.
Moving the other dog made things easier for sure but we also need to get him to be able to do things with barking dogs around 🙂 You can download videos from YouTube or Facebook of dogs barking and doing agility, and have them playing while you train simple things at home. Then incorporate the hardest stuff! This is actually on the To The Line agenda 🙂 because he needs to stay engaged when he hears a barking dog. It is entirely possible he will need to be moving to the line while the dog before him is barking its head off on course, so we need to build the distraction in, in a happy way!
So the verbals are fine… for your next verbal session, have some barky YouTube videos in the background and see how he does!Let me know what you think!
TracyOoh, I like that! Notice how EVERYONE in the room chilled out, it got really quiet! Can you do that standing, or down on one knee? Or bring a chair ringside? Try it without food or toys around, so she doesn’t try to offer anything other than this 🙂 Great job!
TracyHi!
>>One other thing…I would describe him as impulsive, a shoot first, aim later kinda guy. Jim says his theme song should be “I want it all, and I want it NOW!”
Ha! Relatable. Are you sure he is not a terrier or Papillon? Those breeds would embrace that theme song too LOL!
>>The Pattern Game has been our go to game for awhile now. >>
Sounds like you have done an amazing job and he has come a very long way already!!!
>>Our hard part is through the gate, to the line – I’m assuming because that’s the part where I don’t have a primary reinforcer immediately available.
Yep! Everything changes in that moment: the primary is gone, the obstacles appear, new distractions, leash off, maybe momma gets nervous… 🙂
>>He/we struggle with comfort at the start and ability to setup quickly and maintain a stay but the really good part is once we start the course he is ALL business and all GO!!!
If he is all business and his runs are successful… then when we get to the actual line up routines it is possible that you will choose the all business routine. All of the arousal state and mental warm up is doing outside the wing. Then you walk in to the start, take the leash off , tell him to stay (no line up trick, just a stay cue) then you lead out. Bing bang boom – all business then off you go 🙂 I have a couple of all business dogs who just want to go to the line and get on with the run 🙂
>>Instant focus game……Is it OK that he offers the down? Or would it be better if I used something larger that he is more likely to do a paw touch? >>
You are going to want the simplest, easiest behaviors so a nose touch/sniff or paw touch are usually the easiest. When the game gets harder, you are not going want to maintain a down position.
>>A couple of times he sort of nose touched the keys and that was the behavior I was thinking about trying to shape. What do you think?>>
Nose touch is good! The keys are small so you might want a bigger object or put them on something bigger.
On the line up game video – adding the action into it can make the control behavior of the stay really fun too! Plus it is a goofy game and can be a great warm up and “volume dial” game too 🙂 The big hand cue helped him find the position between your feet a little better.
Because he might be an all business dog on the line, you can also play with the line up at your side especially the element where you line him up, cue the stay and lead out without any extra fanfare.
He is doing well with the RR but I think we can break ti down even more to target the engagement areas we want to build up. Remote reinforcement where the dog offers engagement is much harder than being cued for engagement! Don’t wait as long to go back; be sure to reinforce the first offer. He didn’t really know what to do so he was offering the jump or going past it, which is not an option on a start line (we don’t want him to go offer jump 1 without you LOL! So you can use this game to isolate the very first step away from the reinforcement – which was MUCH harder when the stuff was on the ground. Try to mark and reward that first step or two to really build it up – he was offering stuff but not really moving with you with engagement, it was more like he was scoping out into the environment to see how to earn the reinforcement, if that makes sense. So by reinforcing that first step or two of engagement with you, you can make it about that first step or two into the ring, rather than what happens on the jumps or tunnels. Let me know if that makes sense!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
He looked good on all of these!Engaged chill outside… you can have him on a leash for this so he can’t stroll off in search of something more stimulating LOL!! All we need is 10 seconds of his time 🙂 Because he already has the history of loving the massage, I bet as soon as he figures out that it can happen outside too, he will LOVE it! And then he will learn he does’t have to be so busy in stimulating environments.
Pattern outside – perfect! You were boring in all of the best ways LOL!!! He was able to modulate himself without needing help from you and that is fabulous!!! At home, add the leash in so it is not a royal pain when you are on the road somewhere to have the leash attached 🙂 And definitely add this in to your next class, getting as close to the other dogs, people and ring as possible.
Remote reinforcement outside- also looked great. Was the reward in a bowl on the ledge? You can pick up the bowl, reward, then to start the next rep you can put it down and start moving away. The scan help him know exactly when the rep has begun so he can move away with you.
>>I didn’t realize he started the weaves until I saw the video.
That was hilarious and also maybe an indicator that he is beginning to understand that good things happen (work, training) when you do NOT have the food in your hands or pockets! YES!
Volume dial – he looked great! So now, for him, all volume dial games should have cookies in pockets and not in hands. That will help form the habit of responding to the cues with the passion he had here without needing to see the cookies first.
>>I don’t think I dropped anything on the ground but he thought so.
There might have been a runaway crumb haha! But you can also feed the cookie less precisely in position – rather than feed with a low hand after the trick (like circle, for example) you can have him put his front feet up on you and then feed the treat. That will help get rid of the “no crumb left behind” moment of looking for a treat, and also standing on you is stimulating!
More games coming on Monday with this! Do you have his in-person class on Monday night?
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>Left turn which is her weaker side is a turn toward me so easier. Right turn which is stronger side is a turn away. Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes – the harder side (left turns) should be easier, set up so it is very easy for her to see the line to the left turns. And the right turns are stronger, so you can make those harder 🙂
Serps –
>>Major foundation hole with serps.
Not a major hole! Just a body position we can easily fix 🙂 For serp cues, you need to rotate your upper body to open your shoulder to face the jump, so your belly button is facing the bar. When you were moving, you were closing your shoulder so your belly button was facing the bowl.
That closed shoulder means “layer, don’t come in” and since layering is now a massive trend in course design, we don’t want to change that 🙂 In fact, I took the young dogs to a seminar yesterday we we had t odd a serp versus a don’t-serp (layer) sequence and since I have good belly button awareness, they were perfect 🙂
So as you are moving through the serp jump, keep close to the jump and your feet pointing to the bowl (don’t pull away) and rotate at the waist to get your dog-side shoulder back, big connection to her eyes, and belly button to the bar 🙂 For now, use whichever arm position produces the upper body position best: you can do dog-side arm back, or you can use a cross arm if that helps you rotate better without turning your feet.
>>>>When I went back to sitting her she understood. But, add the wing and she just kept going to the reward.
So when you broke it down to a sit stay, at :52 and those reps you had GREAT upper body ‘strike a pose’ position with your belly button pointing to the bar and she nailed it.
But when you added back your motion, you closed your shoulders forward – if you pull away like a post turn, she came in )or threaded) but when you stayed near the jump, the closed shoulders looked like a layer cue so she correctly layered the jump.
So keep moving along the serp line with her moving, but exaggerate the open shoulders/belly button to the bar position and see how she does, first with you walking then we add more speed. We need to find the sweet spot of upper body rotation without foot rotation.
Because layering is SO popular, I want her to continue to layer when your shoulders are closed forward – trust me, you are going to need her to do that LOL!
The FCs looked great! You were super connected and she was fabulous!
Great job – let me know what you think about the upper body position for the serps :)
TracyHi!
That first rep was funny! You asked if he was ready and he said YES LOL! Behold the power of the word “ready” hahahaThe rest looked terrific. Try not to do an ‘oh my’ if he is not immediately correct – let him work it through so you can reward the correct behavior. Turning away is REALLY hard but he caught himself each time he started to go the incorrect direction and then he was GREAT!
I think he is a righty both because he gets the right turns correct more frequently (especially at 1:29 and on the last rep where it would have been easier to go to the left!) but also because he is a lot more organized with his movement going to the right than to the left. So, you can keep making the right turns harder like you did here, but keep the left turns in simpler position for now (start him more center of the bar so he doesn’t have as much of a discrimination to make).
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
That first rep was funny! You asked if he was ready and he said YES LOL! Behold the power of the word “ready” hahahaThe rest looked terrific. Try not to do an ‘oh my’ if he is not immediately correct – let him work it through so you can reward the correct behavior. Turning away is REALLY hard but he caught himself each time he started to go the incorrect direction and then he was GREAT!
I think he is a righty both because he gets the right turns correct more frequently (especially at 1:29 and on the last rep where it would have been easier to go to the left!) but also because he is a lot more organized with his movement going to the right than to the left. So, you can keep making the right turns harder like you did here, but keep the left turns in simpler position for now (start him more center of the bar so he doesn’t have as much of a discrimination to make).
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I think the hardest part of the zig zag for him was the stay! He did well with that too, holding his stay til you got to wing 3 – SUPER! And the lead changes look GREAT!
At :41 he had a little blooper but he just needed more connection and a lower arm, he pushes away best when your arm is a little lower for now so he can see the connection.How did the adult dogs do?
How far apart were these wings? I think you can get them closer now, to 5 feet apart – that makes it harder because he has to do the lead changes quicker 🙂
>>As far as all of these different drills go, I’m wondering if anybody has ever made a list of them so that you could go back easily and revisit certain ones. Wondering how much we should go back to some of the initial drills in Max Pup 1? Just trying to keep up with re-visiting The drills that we should continue to work on.>>
Excellent question! To be honest, you probably don’t need to go back and look at the MaxPup 1 stuff because all of the MaxPup 2 stuff builds directly from it (stealthily hahahaha so you don’t realize you are doing the foundations over and over :)) For example, the wing and the jump have replaced the ‘prop’. And the prop games are all built up to rocking horses and smiley face games and the handling games. Strike a pose is now the threadle and serp stuff. You can totally revisit the body awareness stuff, but I am guessing you do that a lot already because of your expertise in fitness.
Pre-Covid, we did have a list of all the MaxPup games but everything got totally revamped during covid. You can use the games titles in the Course Syllabus page to see if there is anything missing – and if I see anything that needs to be revisited, I will point it out. So far… you are doing an awesome job!
Nice work 🙂
Tracy
