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Good morning!
She did really well with the left and right here! the right looked a little stronger than the left perhaps, but we will see how it percolates in future sessions. Both were good!
A couple of ideas about the mechanics:
You can use left/right as the releases – no need to release then left/right because that delays the info and the release tells her to move but not HOW to move. Left and right are very specific!Great job adding the get it verbal! You don’t need to say “yes get it” – the get it is both the marker for correct behavior AND the location of reinforcement. And we don’t want to pair ‘yes’ in to the reinforcement because if you say ‘yes’ on course, she might stop working and start looking for reinforcement. So I urge people to NOT say yes – just say ‘get it’ or whatever marker is appropriate.
And since food is notoriously hard to throw, you can use something like a lotus ball or treat hugger- it is easier to throw, easier for the dog to see, but not as exciting as a tennis ball or tug toy 🙂
Great job here! For the next soft turn session, keep adding motion and add the start wing before this setup 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>>I think for quite awhile I was not using food as much as I could have with her. She’s really my first sheltie that is toy driven. I worked super hard on that with her as a puppy. She was much more food motivated at first than toys(Hello Sheltie). I would lose her toy focus sometimes with food and I think I was just scared to use the food. I really did need to use the food though!!! >>
Yes – it is hard to know what the exact balance is with puppies, there is a lot of back-and-forth trying to figure it out. You are getting a really good handle on her needs and preferences!
>>You suggested the reset cookie and that changed a lot for her! Her reinforcement rate also has to be EXTREMELY high(as should all dogs)!!!
The reset cookie keeps what I call the ‘umbrella’ rate of reinforcement high – meaning, a high rate of reinforcement for everything in the environment, not just the skill we are trying to train. It has made a huge difference in keeping the dogs happy to work in a balanced state of arousal.
>>I was able to get away with not being as consistent with my reinforcement rate with my first two shelties(Potter is an absolute Saint of a dog) but Promise says she will only accept the best trainer lol!!! No sloppiness allowed!!!
Ha! Yes, every dog is different even if they are the same breed – they all respond to a low rate of reinforcement, but they respond differently: some barkk/jump like Promise, some slow down or freeze up. And some dogs find the middle ground and put up with our learning and keep going 🙂
>>I have adding food A LOT more to my training sessions and I’m seeing much better results because of it. I have also not seen the loss of toy drive with her either!
Food can be so helpful and I am very excited to hear the toy drive remains strong!
>>Im starting with food with all things right now to teach a behavior and then adding the toy after the behavior has a general understanding. I’m seeing much better results.
Happy dance! Basically it sounds like you are teaching new skills in a lower state of arousal, then using the toy to increase the arousal to help solidify the skill – that is perfect! There is a strong scientific basis to it and also since she is going to aroused when running, helping her be able to work while aroused is very important!
Onwards to the verbals:
>>Extension: GO– take the line of jumps in front of you as fast as you can leaving me in the dust- center of bar>>
Yes – and think about what her jumping effort should look like (big extension, where she needs to takeoff, where she needs to look, etc
>>Over– take the jump relatively straight. Can also be a very slight curve. mostly center of bar
Less extension here, somewhere in that grey area between GO and left/right
>>Get Out- change leads and go away taking obstacle away from me. center of bar
I also have “then come back to original lead and stay on parallel line to my path” to this one because it gives the dog extra info on the exit of the jump.
>>Turn cues:
Wraps- check check check- wrap jump 180 to right-jumping right near wing
dig dig dig- wrap jump 180 to left-jumping right near wing
left- turn 90ish degrees to left nearish wing
right- turn 90ish degrees to right nearish wing>>Sounds good! And start to visualize what you think her jumping effort on the takeoff side will look like – that helps define criteria.
>>Switch- this is my rear cross cue. I do have big questions on this after last nights
video chat. I do realize it is a “VAGUE” cue. Rears are more and more being presented in different ways. It was my word for either side too. Wondering what to do on this????>>Yes, switch is a general cue kind of like “over” – it doesn’t give a lot of direction about what happens after the jump. So maybe use it for a RC where you have a wide open curve, like ‘over’? I use directionals on the tighter turn rear crosses (left/right, wrap cues, etc)
>>backside slice verbal- back back back wrap around backside of jump and take bar at a slice angle going in new direction
>>backside wrap verbal- wrap wrap wrap. come in close to wing and wrap 180 back
I like the definitions! Try running around (without her) and see if back back back and wrap wrap wrap end up sounding similar when repeated while running.
>>Threadle slice- in in in come in between jumps and take jump at a slice
>>Threadle wrap- haha I need this in my life!!! will think of a word. Probably will steal Carrie’s and Jamies lolYes, you will need a threadle wrap verbal but not any time soon – it is popular so she will need it in Masters but you’ve got time on your side LOL
>>Tunnel threadle–here here here. take opposite side of tunnel you are presented with
>>Go tunnel. take tunnel and extend out on line
>>tunnel- take tunnelSo for the tunnel exits, those are separate from the ‘go in the tunnel’ cues – when she is committed to the tunnel, we add the directional before she goes in and that tells her how to exit.
>>free- release word
>>READY- automatic down, when you do I lead out and we get the party startedI noticed that she was responding really well to ‘ready’ in the last video! Very cool!
>>Of course she has all the toy reinforcement words and many other things. Im too lazy to list them all. The toy reinforcement words helped a ton with her. Another game changing moment with her. One thing with the treat n train too was I changed its reinforcement word to snacks. When I said get it she was looking for toy and that was causing some frustration with the sloooow to deliver food robot.>>
Yes, SO MANY WORDS hahha! And in a strange way, the treat n train is teaching her some patience because the wait for the food is worthwhile, because it reliably spits out cookies LOL!
Great list here!
TracyThanks for the reminder! I will be posting it shortly and will email everyone when I have it ready.
Tracy
Hi!
>>Today we tried Games 1 and 2 from Week 2. She did well on the first game, with turns around the wing, so we moved straight on to Game 2.
Yes, she was great on these!!! Did you add in the wing wrap before it? I think that might be the way to add more motion, especially on those right turns – doing it from a wing wrap can help you both add motion in an easier setup.
>> She did well at first, but I noticed on the video that I tended to move in the left or right directions, especially with increased speed – I’m thinking this is probably a no-no!
Yes, she did really well with setting up her soft turns!! I thought your motion was fine 🙂 you didn’t do anything overly “helpful”, you were mainly moving forward (OK, maybe you pulled away a little to avoid hitting the aframe LOL!)
One suggestion – keep your left and right verbals a little longer and not repeated as quickly. That will help her process: riiiight riiiight riiiight is very distinct and rightrightright might end up sounds like a wrap verbal when said really quickly.
>>When I sent her round the stanchion first, she had difficulty with the right turns when I ran faster, so I decreased speed until she got it, then increased it a little again.
Yes, for whatever reason, that was indeed harder. Slowing down was totally the right thing (pun intended haha) and she really helped. In that situation, try not to add back speed top quickly: a couple of failures should be followed by the rest of the session at a slower pace, rather than a couple of reps. That will help build the skill and avoid more errors when you add back more speed in the following session. I think adding speed on the wing game by adding a start wing will totally help get her happy with it too 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> She’s been a little extra in the pushy department lately. So maybe some impulse control and resetting of boundaries ?
Or, more clarification of what is available and when 🙂
>>Jamie has related how having clear markers has helped Fever. In the past when Roulez has made a grab for the toy, I have stopped motion, she backs off and we continue.
That is a punisher though (a mild one, but still a negative punishment) so I prefer to have the markers in place so the dogs know when it the toy is available. That way she can be more sure of what to do and when. That will help with the hiccups and the pushy behavior.
>>When I have used a marker, it has been “get it”. But I also use “get it” when asking them to retrieve an object. I will start transitioning to another reward marker for taking the reward from my hand.>>
Perfect!!! I have found it to really help 🙂
On the video – she did well with the wraps!!! I really like having the toy place out by the wing – I didn’t see any hiccups even though the toy was exciting! I would definitely add a ‘get it’ cue on that too, rather than just praise. And when your knee has clearance, you can start to add more speed and leaving sooner and sooner – with the toy placed out by the wing and nowhere near you 🙂
Game 3 was easier for her on the left turn side, looked pretty perfect1
On the right turn side – much harder! It could have been your position on the line? Or it could be that she just has a harder time turning right? But she was figuring it out by the end 🙂
So for your next Game 3 session: add more motion to the left turns only. Do the right turns on the wing with just walking for one more session til she is 90% successful or above, then we can add more of your motion after that 🙂And you were doing a great job of NOT helping with the handling here! All of the turn decisions were her decisions and not handling-induced. Great job!!!!
TracyHi!
That is really interesting about the weave training – she is able to stay in a more level state of arousal. And yes – if you are using the reset cookies before/during/after the reps LOL then it keeps the rate of reinforcement SUPER high for the whole process, even if the skills are not perfect yet. That is good to know!!!
THi!
Good session here! He was getting the idea of the left and right and organizing his turns really well. Good boy!!! I like how your verbals were relaxed a quiet, but also different from the wrap verbals. You can also repeat them a few times, by extending them: riiiiight riiiight riiiiight for example.For tomorrow or whenever you get a chance to try this again: no placed toy. It is way too easy for him at this point – he doesn’t have to listen to the verbals because the toy is there making it obvious 🙂 You could probably say “party party party” and he will go over the jump to the toy LOL!!! So, with that in mind, have the toy in your hand and throw it when you see him make a decision (you can add in the GO balance reps too!). The other option is to have 3 placed toys: one on the GO line, one on the right turn, one on the left turn. That way the reward is immediate without making it too easy. But 3 placed toys might make his head explode, so it is better if you hold the toy and throw it for now 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracySo either don’t used a placed toy at all (throw it rather than place it)
Hi!
Her soft turns looked great! She is organizing herself really well! In the beginning of the session, she didn’t have many errors and got the rep after error correct which was great! No worries about the one or two oopsie rewards LOL! Overall, a really lovely session.She had more trouble towards the end of the session, when you were doing the wing wraps to the left turns. I think that was more arousal-based. That is something you’ve seen – when arousal is higher, she has more questions and errors (totally normal!!). So here is an idea: set up your session as a bell curve. Start with a couple of easy reps to each side, as a bit fo a warm up. Then, before the arousal kicks in, do a couple of harder reps (the start wrap to the left turns with you moving a bit more were definitely harder!) Then after a couple of reps, wind down the session with a few easier ones, similar to what you did at the beginning (like the last couple of left turns you had on this video). That way, you work the harder stuff before the arousal kicks in fully. Then when she is really stimulated, you ask her is she can still do the easy stuff!
That way we accomplish 2 things:
– we teach her the new, hard stuff
– we make sure she still understands the easier stuff when she is stimulatedLet me know if that makes sense 🙂
>> was interesting that when I decided to loop back with a mistake I got the same jumping up behavior as the double wraps!
You marked the error, and so she got mad LOL! Don’t mark it, she knows 🙂 because you didn’t throw the reward. Call her back, present the reset cookie as you call her, and move to the next rep.
At 1:29 when you had an error and then just carried on back to the wrap, she barked but did not really jump.
Compare it to 1:44 where you marked an error with “oh!” And she totally barked and jumped up at you.>>It also interesting how I get louder and higher pitched with motion
That I might need to work on with her. I’m all zen walking and then I add motion and go up a few levelsHa! We all do that, which is why my wrap cues are noises that simply cannot be shouted, and my soft turn verbals are questions – very hard to shout! LOL!
Great job here! I think on the next soft turn session: start with a couple of left/ right on the wing from the start wing, then do a couple left/right on a jump from the start wing, then take the jump out and end on a couple of easy ones from the start wing to the wing. Let me know what you think!
TracyHowdy!
This was also a super session! It reminded me of one more thing I want to add to the “Stark, drive to the jump and don’t jump up an bark at your momma” suggestions: when he is starting at your side, start with your hand in his collar, start saying the verbal… then let go and see what happens – that might also help him drive directly forward and not bark/jump at your side. The goal is to de-condition him from that bark/jump at your side (I don’t know if de-condition is actually a word or not LOL)Otherwise, I am super happy with how he did with his left/right turns here! You can definitely add the start wing before it and keep throwing the reward on the line like you did. And if he is great with that, go on to add the jump (and the balance reps) so we can see how he is organizing himself for the turn.
Great job here!!!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
Super session here too! Both sides looked awesome with the countermotion. (He is doing that come in/bark at you that he did in the previous video, so same suggestions for that apply here too).
At around :50 you started doing less countermotion on the FC and more of a ‘normal’ FC back to the start wing – perfect! I was going to suggest that as the next step. That is where things will get harder for him! And they were indeed a little harder, he got a little wider at about :54, but then you did a little countermotion mixed in and a couple of normal FCs, and he was nice and tight again. Huzzah! And no off course grabs – perfect. So, next step: no countermotion, no FC – just move forward saying the verbal. Basically, you will do a super late FC as part of the reward – when you see him collecting to wrap, you will then do a FC and take off (but throw the reward back to the wing).
And if that goes well? Onwards to the jump here. Great job!
TracyHi!
Really nice session!!! Lots of good stuff here – MUCH better use of hind end, his feet are not higher than his butt anymore 🙂 I see him going from extension to collection and that makes me want to do a BIG happy dance!!! And he is doing it without you having to slow down or help or throw your hands in his face or anything. That is a BIG change, very happy-making!
I don’t love this footing for him, I think he is compensating a bit and shortening up, so hopefully you can work him on the turf at LU so he gets the feel of the extension to collection there too (and that will transfer to competition too!)
So, one thing I really noticed here and we can focus on: he is an interesting character! He doesn’t want to drive past you (note the moment he barks at your side :04, :14, :18, :23 , :33… and he actually levitates at :28 and :42!).
You were very precisely connected, arm locked back – I have no improvements to suggest there LOL! I mean, you can’t be more connected unless you crawl inside his eyeballs HA! Your motion was good too – not too much, not too little. And it sounds like your verbals were good too!
So something is delaying his commitment here, causing him to come into you then back out – it could be any number of things that I can think of, but that doesn’t matter. What matters is that we can help smooth out that line, because it is *that* exact moment which causes his turn/collection decisions to get off kilter in situations that are not as set up as this one is. If we can answer this question, a lot of your other questions will also get answered.
So, two ideas for you, both involving how the reinforcement is used:
We can change the placement of reinforcement. He might be struggled with the distraction of you and the reward moving fast and moving in a different direction, which delays his commit – which in turn delays his collection organization. So, easy change: throw the reward to the wing he has just exited, right to the outer edge of the wing so it is there when he comes around it. That will get him looking ahead at the wing of the jump more, and looking at you less as he drives to the jump.
Second, it is possible that he doesn’t understand when the toy in in your hand in ‘in play’ as a reinforcement and when he should look ahead and ignore it (this could be happening even when you are not carrying a toy, because it might be a bit conditioned). To clarify that for him, add a reward marker that specifically means “now you may have the toy in my hand”. I expect my dogs to ignore the toy in my hand until I say “bite!” That both marks the correct behavior and tells them where to look: no bite? Look at the jump. Bite? Look at the toy. It has been a HUGE help getting CB and HSM to drive lines.
This means that praise has to happen after the reward marker, so you will need to shape yourself to say your ‘bite’ word and then praise.
Both of these should make a massive difference. This game is already getting him to really organize his collections as you run, and the 2 ideas above will smooth out his approach to the jump. Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> But, it was time to stop and I’m trying hard to break the “just one more” habit that turns into several more attempts.
Truth!!! That ‘just one more’ gets us all into trouble.
What a good girl to hold her stay even when you had the bad toy toss!! Nice!!!! I think the extensions went well – I like the toy on the ground for her, to keep her head down. A lot of dogs want to jump with their heads up (Aussies are included in that list!) and so the more we rehearse head down, the better. She did well here with the striding!
On the next session, you can add a little more height to the bar, maybe 2 inches then 4 inches more (with the toy still way out ahead of the jump). And you can add the decels with you standing still – at first, *don’t* have the toy on the ground out ahead for those. When she is able to decel after all of the GO reps, you can work up to having the toy on the ground for all reps – and she gets it for the GO reps and you have a 2nd toy or treats in your hand for the decels 🙂 That is definitely more challenging 🙂
Great job here!
TracyYay, it worked! The list looks great – and it is alphabetical! Cool!!!!
Only 79 words. There is room for more. KIDDING hahahah!
So much good stuff here and lots of details on what they mean. Nice!
You had some notes about tunnel verbals – I have found that using the existing directionals like left or right for tunnel exits work really well – I generally deliver the exit verbal about 6 feet before the dog enters, and they exit properly. That makes it easier than adding tunnel-specific verbals to the list.
Switch is a good one to have on the list too! You noted it as a lead change in the air, but I think you will find it to be more effective if the pup does the lead change on the ground as he approaches the jump.I didn’t see any jump threadle cues – did I miss them or are you still hashing them out?
Great list!!
Tracy
