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Hi! She had very big feelings about this!
We will be adding more to the line up and remote reinforcement games on Monday so to prepare for those: how does she do in the kitchen when you put the dish down and walk away with her? If she can do that pretty easily and without big emotions (and going back for lots of rewards of course :)) then go a few steps away and ask for one easy behavior. I think one of her action tricks like a hand touch or spin would be ideal, so she doesn’t have to turn her back on the dish (not yet, at least :))We will totally build up to the line up with the remote reinforcement, but there are a couple of steps we will put in before it. Her big emotions will tell us if we are moving top quickly and if so, we can dial it back to wherever she is comfy. 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!Tracy
Hi!
I see what you mean, he has questions. Was he supposed to go straight and turn right over the same jump as the go jump? It was hard to tell based on your position: when he was on your left, your running line pushed him to the outside jump. When he was on your right, you were standing on his line so he thought it was a backside. So, the best thing is to make sure you are facing the jump you want, but be moving towards the wing so you don’t end up blocking his line.
I think the spins on the flat confuse him a bit. He was not sure if you want the turn on the flat or on the jump. So, they can be a good warm up away from the jump with different verbals, but using a jump you can send him over it to get the turn.
Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>>You said to move her to the center on the right turns. Did you mean about the contrast of RIGHT turn towards me and away from me from the center? You said the contrast of right turn away and left turn away.
Sorry, I’ve been leaving out important words lately!!! I meant center of the wings, where the 3 wings meet (not center of the bar). So the left turns would be very easy, and the right turns would be harder because she is on your right side. Let me know if that makes better sense 🙂
The zig zags are going well!! Click/treat to you for sorting out what she needed and going to food. Do this exact thing for one more session before we change anything like adding the toy back.
I agree, the release and cue are hard to time. Definitely mix in moving your hand and marking/rewarding the stay (tossed reward to her). The other thing you can do is place the hand cue in position *before* you release. So it would be point at the line you want, pause…. release. That can help keep the verbal release distinct from motion!
Great job! Let me know if this all makes sense or if I left out any words LOL
TracyGood morning! Congrats on your class success, it is so cool to hear that she is a superstar 🙂
The other thing you can do with the serps at speed is angle the serp jump to face her, ever so slightly. That way it is easier to take it and harder to run past it while you run.
Both games here look great! A couple of little ideas:
On the minny pinny, keeping her facing the center of the bar will help for another session or two, because moving over too soon caused her to ping away to the other side.And since she found being moved by the collar so NOT fun, you can use a reset cookie: lure her into the position you want, feed her, then take the collar. That way she won’t think it is as poop LOL!!
You can also do an entire session just with cookies, because the toy is stimulating and she wanted to get to it fast. Food will be less stimulating so you will see her look at the jumps more 🙂
She totally remembered the zig zags!!! You can totally move the wings in closer now, to 6 feet then 5 feet. And you can handle less, smaller motions: she was like I GOT THIS so the bigger movements were sending her a little wider 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>He comes fully loaded with energy.
>>In distracting environments, I have to bring the energy to compete.Right! That’s why we want him to self-direct his energy more in those distracting environments so you don’t have to match or exceed the energy of the distractions.
>>Pattern game I was able to do outside on porch so he did take a moment to look but came back pretty quickly.
Perfect!!! More practice with minimal distractions will help him be ready for bigger distractions.
>>Will try at the run thru. We usually do these further back in smaller room behind ring. Only a narrow space with dogs and people in room with ring. Small room has practice equipment so he gets excited if dog is running.>>>
Keep me posted! Start where he can be successful then get closer and closer 🙂
>>I did finally find a way to get a leash attached to his clam. This did up the excitement. I was able to use it to draw him away from barking at the neighbor taking out trash while outside on the porch. Will test it with dogs at the run thru.>>
That’s huge! Neighbor dogs can be a massive distraction!!
Keep me posted 🙂
TracyGlad to hear she is doing so well!!!! And thank you for filling me in on all of her questions, it really helps us humans try to figure out what the dogs need 🙂
TracyHi!
>>I measured and they were 6 1/2 ft apart. So, go to 5ft next? Then add more? Or, get to 4 ft on three before adding more?
I think a good progression is to go to 5 feet on 3. Then back to 6 feet for 4 (easier distance for harder # of wings). Then to 5 feet on 4 wings. Then to 6 feet on 5 wings… then to 5 feet on 5 wings. No need to get to 4 feet right now, I think the quick coordination of 5 wings will be more useful 🙂
the left/right verbals are going well! The left/right towards you looked great. And she is a DEFINITE righty 🙂 You can move her more to center on the right turns, and if that is fine you can add in a contrast of right turn away from your (starting on your right) and then left turn away from you (also starting on your right).
>>Sprite really struggled to turn left away from me. Had to lure it.
Luring is good, it helped! You can use that little hand signal you started using at about 1:23 (but only on the jumps, not on the flat, because we don’t want her offering the spin on the flat :)) . Or, you can lure it is a little with a bowl out there between the bars or a toy on the ground. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ lure sometimes and she has a good understanding of the bowl!
>> Also, should I go back to jump bumps? I can’t lock my bars and she is knocking them trying to figure out her footwork.
Yes, you can use your bumps here if the bars can’t be locked, so she can sotr out the footwork 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
She looked good on both of these! I think for now she looked a little better at 6 feet (she was ‘reaching’ more on 7 feet, which means it is not as comfy). As the bar gets taller, and she gets older, we might revisit 7 feet but for now, leave it at 6 feet… and add the moving target 🙂 The MM helped her learn the concept (nice job with the stay reinforcement too!!!) so now we can add more power with the moving target that you’ve already worked on.Great job!!
TracyHi!
>>I really liked that all of your dogs did this. I probably could work with that but would have to cue it. Is that okay?
Yes, you can cue it and totally even give little cookies at first. I cue it with my dogs.
>>I appreciate your confidence that we can have chills
As a founding member of Team No Chill, I have confidence that chill (real or fake) is achievable by all.
Hi!
Loose leash walking for cookies is good, but I would definitely add in the pattern game so he learns to assess the environment (and his doggie friends :)) and offer engagement to the momma! That can totally help him understand how to ignore his friends and not be the social director at the end of the leash 🙂
TracyHi!
>I am intrigued by the same words being both the marker and the cue for where to get the reinforcement. I have always separated that out, especially to make sure that the marker doesn’t mean “leave me to go get your reinforcer,” but your explanation makes sense and we will utilize your version.>>
The dogs tend to respond to the first part of the marker or cue – if yes is the start of the marker, that is where most pairing will take place. So get it can totally be like a click, and it provides both the click and the placement info! The dogs learn this very easily 🙂
And depending on the marker – the dog can TOTALLY leave you to go to the reinforcement. That is what it means – reinforcement is available now in that spot. Otherwise we build in unwanted behavior between the marker and the reinforcement delivery (generally too much looking at us LOL!). So if “yes” means you are correct then there is a slight delay of not leaving for the reward before the next marker, he will add in looking at you and/or moving towards you, which is not what you’ll want in a lot of behaviors.
>>What is the ideal instant focus object? I just grabbed something off the shelf at the training center for the video.
Anything that is easy to put front feet up on or into is great 🙂
The engaged chill is great! YAY!!! It helps you and Riot have a chance to breath 🙂
>>When he finally got his turn, he gets very aroused and starts to spin. This is something he has done since he was young. He doesn’t do it much anymore. I usually try to distract him or ignore it. I opted for ignoring it tonight and then trying a pattern game. I suspect you have some thoughts on that?>>
Yes I have thoughts hahaha! The spinning is a self-stim arousal behavior rooted in frustration that usually tips the dog out of the optimal arousal state (to the “hot” side of things) plus there is a physical component of overuse that we don’t want – so I always stop it if it starts but ideally, prevent it from starting. Can he stay on a bed while Stevie trains or you set up a camera, or chew a bully stick? That can be good for reducing frustration. If it starts when you enter the area, you can start the pattern game before you even enter to help him moderate that internal arousal and choose an alternate behavior.
On the tricks video –
You can use “snacks” or “cookies” for the food-in-hand marker instead of get it.
He has a TON of great tricks! As soon as he starts the spinning in the beginning, interrupt it somehow – you can do a cookie toss for get it, or a gentle collar grab, or a chin rest – but don’t let him continue it. And probably don’t use spin as a trick LOL because we don’t want to start him spinning particularly at the start of the session hen he might be less centered.Love the paw touches to your foot! The through tricks are good – so many good tricks!!!!
For the ‘get it’ tosses as active tricks – we want the handler to be more passive in the pattern games, so the dog gets to choose the engagement. You were a little too exciting here 🙂 plus we want him engaged with you and not running for treats in this scenario.Without treats in hands – lots of good tricks here too! Yay! You can do a whole freestyle routine! Love it!!!
With all of these cookies – you can use a more active delivery – rather than handing him the treats while he is stationary after a trick, you can have him chase your moving hand and eat on the run (not a tossed treat, still comes from your hand) as that will definitely add more energy 🙂
He seemed to like the engaged chill 🙂 Yay!
>>I see I sometimes say “get it” when handing him a treat. I will need a new word or phrase for the pattern game to avoid confusion.
>>One more question. I am renting the agility yard on Friday. What would be the most useful thing for me to video for this class?
I suggest 2 minutes of each game 🙂 Pattern game first, then tricks (1 minute wiht cookies visible, 1 minute without visible cookies). Then volume dial before you run a sequence. And some engaged chill mixed in 🙂 You can also do a little Instant Focus shaping and some line up games if you have started those. You don’t need to do them all in a row, just little bits and pieces to see how he does in the new environment 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi –
>>My instructor Gillian Crawford and I have a question for you – do you have a place in your repertoire for using physical stimuli to raise arousal? For example we might use restraint in recall training, or push back on the dog’s chest then run away to start a chase game.>>
Ah, this is a big topic. There are times I touch the dogs, or hold a collar… but only when I am 1000% sure that it is fully associated with positive reinforcement, that the dog offers the collar and the position, and the dog thinks it is super fun. You can tell the dog thinks it is fun because they offer to participate in it and move into the handler when the handler asks to do it. And I’ll only do it when the dog is already having a grand time in the environment, and it is never ever associated with punishment or low rate of reinforcement. So I might do a gentle push back, or a restrained recall, or a ready-set-go with a collar hold like we do in flyball – but that is a trained, highly reinforced game that the dog opts into and enjoys. Not every dog likes that (one of my dogs absolutely HATES restrained recalls in sports.) It is not designed to do anything other than have a super playful way to start – but the dog can also start a zillion other ways. If the dog says “ewww this is icky” then we do not insist on making them do it, especially in the ring. Instead, we find ways to split the behavior and help the dog understand that it is great fun, then build the behavior from there.
If the dog has opted out for whatever reason, these hands-on games are NOT good for raising arousal because that is when people start to push the dogs, pull back on collars, move the dogs around physically, push back on chests, poke the dogs, tap the dogs in the face, grab at their feet… when I watch this as an observer, I will tell you that the dogs are displaying classic body language of “this is aversive”. The handler gets reinforced because they dog gets frustrated and when there is no escape or other options, you might get a moment of speed (escape). Having watching this for a couple of decades – the end result in the ring is never what the handler really wants because the underlying emotions are not what we want for creating fast, happy agility runs. More on that below.
Also, I never move them by the collar across the agility ring, very few dogs actually like that – moving the dog is always a hands-off procedure (or on a leash). And if the dog digs in and does not want to move with me to the start line or the start of a sequence? I won’t make them do it because all I am doing in that moment is making things icky. Instead, I will try to figure out what has gone wrong with the reinforcement and/or environment that the dog is opting out.
(Insert people arguing that dogs have to be moved by the collar because what if they are running across the interstate, etc etc etc… my argument back is if we make being moved by the collar icky in sports training, then we definitely will not be able to grab them if they are running across an interstate LOL!! Collar grabs should be trained behaviors that the dogs love love love, not something we need to make them do in the agility ring)
>> I ask *not* as a trick question to be reassured that dragging my dog around by her collar is okay.
IMO, I agree with you that it is not OK, and it can be quite detrimental in a lot of ways. If she is telling you that she is opting out… hands off is always the answer and figuring out what has gone wrong in the reinforcement or environment is the better path. Dragging her back when she is clearly saying no can cause her to avoid you in the future when you reach for her (and that is never good for sport or life) and it definitely produces a negative conditioned response to the environment. The same goes for irritating her to try to increase arousal.
>> But I do see that when I have irritated the heck out of her (sorry Zippie!) her arousal *is* up and her response to cues is much better.
Well, when using physical interaction that is aversive to the dog you might see that the arousal is up, but not in a good way internally for the dog. She is frustrated and irritated and probably has no way to tap out. So in that moment, you get some speed and you get some cookies into her… but that increases the negative conditioned emotional response to the environment (being touched, being in the ring).
And when you cannot use a hands on way to get her irritated, or move her by her collar, and when you do not have cookies: the dogs default to an extreme end of the emotional arousal spectrum. So some dogs will get hyper-aroused and fast but super frustrated, not able to think as well, and not happy. And other dogs will go to the extreme other side, of being really slow and tentative, then tapping out as soon as they realize that neither the aversive nor the positive reinforcement are going to happen. So it ends up not having a successful outcome overall.
>>I have never used a lot of physical play with my Basenjis (I do with my terrier), but maybe I should try some things, a’la Volume Dial game to see what works? Or wait for a future game pack?>>
Video what you want to do, without her. Use an invisible dog, and we can then decide if it is play interaction, or possibly aversive. I use cues and tricks and ‘naked play’ (playful interactions where I might touch the dog, depending on the dog) without cookies in the volume dial game – but nothing that would irritate the dog. That is not the state that I want my teammate in, heading into the ring.
You’ll see the difference when you do it without the dog. Happy play interaction allows the dog to come to the handler, the handler moves away invitingly, the dog is interested in pursuing the play even thought the dog has every opportunity to leave if she wants to. Aversive interactions have the handler moving towards the dog, and the dog moves away for the most part (and turns head away, looked around, sniffs, shows displacement behavior) unless the dog gets mouthy when it continues because they are frustrated and the only option left is to interact but not in a happy way.
Think of it from the human perspective. You are in a situation where you are not entirely sure of what is happening, you are not being paid all that well, you are a little uncomfortable… and I come up to you, get in your face, and start pushing you on the shoulder. You can’t really leave the situation, but you give me some body language and maybe ask me to stop, but I persist. You will definitely get irritated… how do you feel in that moment about the situation? And how do you think you will feel the next time you are asked to go into the ring with me LOL
>>This question was inspired in part by what happened today, but we’re not asking for permission to repeat what happened today, I promise. Today’s class was a 7 obstacle sequence, working on my handling for a backside jump off screen. I set up the camera to get the start and finish, which was almost a loop so we could retry our handling in flow a couple of times. You will not be surprised that she was slow at jump 1-2, but once we got going her energy was great,>>
I tried to count the rate of reinforcement on the video, but I didn’t see enough of what was happening to be able to know for sure. One thing I did note was that your reinforcement is producing the behavior you actually don’t want 🙂 The first tricks before you started had a lot of reinforcement, but all of the food was delivered in a passive way, standing still. So that will produce a lower arousal state, and more standing still. You can use cookies as a toy – do a trick, run, get her to chase your cookie hand as you deliver it. That is an active reinforcement and gets a higher state and more movement.
The other thing that happened was that you were tossing cookies in the dirt near that first jump during reset moments… so she was sniffing in that area after that because she had just gotten a bunch of cookies in that spot and the smells where there (and she might not have known what else to do). This is another moment where active use of the treats will help and also, engaged chill so you can listen and plan, and she can be ready for the next sequence..>> until on the third time her arousal was lower, she missed a jump, I tried to restart (because the approach was relevant the backside skill we were working on, otherwise I rarely fix missed jumps) so now we were on a 4th try …. and 4 times was probably too much.>>
This would be a great place for a reset reward! Oops, missed a jump, you’ve already done it 3 times… here’s an active reset reward to keep you in the game. Missing jumps is a handling error, so I always give reset rewards to the dog.
>> So I went to get her, we reconnected with a couple of tricks, and the my instructor wanted me to finish with the easy part of the sequence. I walked her over to the “new” start line and when she started to dig in her heels my instructor asked me to be persistent. Clearly I need to train hand in the collar outside of agility if I want to use it, but starting at 2:26 after “relief” she ran better than average, including on her next turn.>>
Looking at the learning theory behind it – classical conditioning is the umbrella that covers the whole situation (that is the conditioned emotional response element) and the operant conditioning is what can skew the classical conditioning. So the continuing to drag her against her will can be considered a positive punishment (applying an unpleasant/aversive stimulus to diminish a behavior) and the ‘relief’ is most likely negative reinforcement (which is the release of the unpleasant stimulus to build a behavior). Those are the 2 quadrants that I work hard to avoid ever using, because operantly they are not nearly as useful as positive reinforcement and negative punishment. And, classically: they produce a negative CER. And the CER is the make-or-break in dog sports where the dog has to opt in when the leash comes off and the cookies are outside the ring. I protect that CER like gold, and it is the very first thing we plan with puppies nowadays.
>>I want to be clear that I do not want to integrate punishment and relief from punishment in my training, but Gill wanted me to ask you about physical stimulus in arousal games and thoughts you may have. >>
The best think to do is list and videotape what physical stimuli you have in mind, then classify them – are they aversive, designed to irritate her? Or are they super fun and she will enjoy them?
Another way to look at it… would you also use the physical stimuli as positive reinforcement for behaviors you loved and would like to see more of? If yes – then super! If not, then don’t use them 🙂
Food for thought! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is a really good start!
A definite part of this is seeing what he naturally does in different scenarios. Leaning over him to pet him was not as successful as when you got on one knee – that is when he went into the down and did actually chill for a moment. Try gentle petting of smaller areas: chin, chest, maybe even an ear?What would happen if he had his front feet on your thigh or stomach, and you maybe scratch his chest?
All good stuff to experiment with. And also, you can do 30 seconds then end the session. If you and Fever are exiting Team No Chill, then you only need to be on Team Chill for super short bursts 🙂 And after a chill moment, you and he can play because that will be fun! We will sort it out! Thanks for trying this! Keep noodling around with different things and then the natural chill will reveal itself (you will have to fake your chill, but his will be real haha!!)
More on Chill coming next week 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Lots of good work here! One thing we will look at are which games need energy from you to help start and maintain the game… and which do not need energy from you because we want him to do the work 🙂Pattern games- these are games that need very energy from – he is going to do all the work 🙂 You can now wait longer between cookies: let him look at the environment (if he wants to) and then choose to engage back with you. Being too quick or energetic can serve as a cue, but we want him to choose it and not be cued to do it. The reason is that, ultimately, he will need to choose to engage especially when cookies are not present.
You can bring this game to class and run throughs, to be done nearer to the ring and other dogs. Start as far away as needed so he can re-engage successfully but close enough that he can he look at the distractions.
Volume dial is also going well! This game CAN have your energy and excitement because it is all about play 🙂 when you use a food reward, you can make the cookie more toy-like by moving it around for him to chase (in your hand, so it remains interactive, and not tossed away from you).
He looked great with this tricks! Don’t forget your middle trick here as a volume dial game. 🙂Remote Reinforcement – having this established will be a big help!! When you mark the behavior, you can just use your ‘let’s get it’, no need to use yes first . The ‘let’s get it’ tells him he is correct AND where to go to get the cookies 🙂 The Yes marker doesn’t provide quite as much info, and also we don’t want yes to mean to go back to the cookies 🙂
Hooray for massage as engaged chill! What is his favorite massage body part? This will not be for the waiting in line moments, it will be for before then (at this point). It was interesting that he was breathing hard here – was this after the games with more action? Or does he breathe harder when massaged?
Action tricks with cookies and leash – very true to life 🙂 but he did well! Maybe they were not as perfect as when there is no leash but still great. That leash gets in the way a bit, but it is necessary to add. And remember his middle trick for this game too 🙂
For all of these, move them to as many different rooms and locations as possible, away from the training area. He is right on track for the new games 🙂
I’m excited about the mock trial!!! We can put together a big plan for success!!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
