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Hi!
On the first video, he definitely found the game a bit challenging! You helped with body language on the 2nd and 3rd reps so he was able to sort it out and resist the temptation of the jump 🙂
He was still sorting it out, with the wing added before it – you can see him looking at the temptation jump but finishing the wrap, good boy!!Two Jumps- this went well, he was definitely getting the collections and turning on the correct side of the bar. Super! He was definitely thinking hard, though, so I think the next couple of sessions can be just like this one with one tweak: don’t help with handling. What I mean by that is you can walk forward until after he makes the decision- then either FC and run for the reward if it was a wrap cue. Or, throw the toy straight for the go. Taking out the FC before the wrap decision will really help him process it independently of body language.
And placing the toy for the Go reps is helpful… but you can leave it out there for the wraps too! That will let us know if he really is processing the Go versus the wrap 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTo keep things in one place, here is the reply that should have come through in the email:
>I would like my dogs to collect and wrap nicely but I have managed to teach both Enzo and Patt to dive into a position just after the jump, instead of collecting. At the start of my video I drew a picture, in case that isn’t clear.
Yes, the picture was clear! Thanks!
The actual jump is 4 feet past the wing. My rumba thing makes an appearance but we ignored it.The rumba thing was HILARIOUS. (and it has a nice tight right turn lol)
Quote of the day:
“It won’t hit you or maybe it will, whatever” hahaha!>>As I review the video, I see that he isn’t very close to the wing when it is just a wing. I guess I should have seen that and stayed at that level.
Yes! He was very good – but definitely processing and looking a bit straight. One thing that we will rally focus on with him is to NOT add handling to help him. We want to have you not have to rely on being ahead or being rotated – so on this setup, sending him around the red upright was a great way to begin each rep. Stick clsoe ot the red upright and as he is exiting that wrap, you can be walking straight forward and saying the verbal (no decel, no rotation, just moving forward). When he makes a decision to collect and turn, then you can do a FC and run and reward. So basically you will be doing a late FC but that is also part of the reinforcement for the collection decision.
What he did here was very good, totally rewardable. And you see him continue to get tighter when he doesn’t have to think about it as much – and that will continue as you add more and more motion.
>> I think his “dig” side (right wrap) is better.
Possibly! You can test the theory by starting with the dig side next time and then going to the check (just be sure that you are consistent with the verbals – yuo had dig going on the right turns then a couple of checks snuck in then back to digs).
>>I sent him over the jump a couple of times to try and see if he was collecting.
The GO balance will make more sense to him when you do it on 2 jumps – he figured it out here but the difference in wrap versus go will be even more obvious on 2 jumps.
>>When I got the toy out, I thought he looked good on the wing wraps,
Yes – after the first rep or two, if he has the general idea, definitely use the toy for all of this. If something proves to be too difficult., we can dial it back but I think the toy will be very helpful for raising arousal. He did have a good one at 2:44 but that is where you can use less handling – just run forward and yell the word 🙂 If needed, move the red upright further back so that you have more space to add motion without needing to decelerate. In my mind, I picture him driving ahead of you into the turn, kind of like the turn on the video we talked about on Monday. You were closest to this at 2:53, you were moving but not really helping too much.
>>so I set up the 16” jumps. That is when he immediately went into dive-bomb mode.
Not too much dive bombing!! I think the first rep was a surprise to him: “Wait, there is a 16″ jump there now?!?!?” This is particularly so becuase he was tugging, facing the other way – then you took the toy and BOOM went right into it so he had very little time to process. I totally would reward that because he maintained enough criteria – did not take the distraction jump and did put a little collection in before the bar. It is not what it will be eventually, but for a first (and surprising) attempt, pretty good!
The turns on the 16” jump at 2:58 and 3:00 in particular were both rewardable, within the criteria on. the takeoff side. he hestitates a tiny bit to balanc eon the mats before driving around but that is fine and he won’t need to do it on grass or turf. At 3:04 (last rep) – you were very helpful, too helpful LOL! witha lot by body language. He did slow down to turn but it was not that different than 3:00 (which was pretty darned nice!)
>>> I tried running up and decelerating and that seemed to help but defeats the point of teaching him.>>
Correct, totally agree – any time you get tempted to help with decel and rotation and getting ahead, try dialing back the speed of your motion and juts moving forward, no handlng “help”.
>>SHOULD I HAVE JUST STARTED AT 8 inches??>>Yes 🙂 A wing to 16″ is a giant leap in the levels. Letting him sort this first at 8 or 10 inches so you can be able to run like mad, yell the thing and get the desired collection is the starting point.
Keep me posted about how he does at 8″!
TracyHi!
>> So how do you define a soft and hard turn?
A hard turn is a wrap, where the dog comes all the way around the wing. A soft turn is a 90 degree turn, where the dog lands roughly parallel to the bar but does not come around the wing. The wrap and soft turn definitions are here:
>> At the first part of the session, she was obsessing on the frisbee on the ground causing her to go wide.
Ha! That would explain it LOL!
Hi!
Great job on with the session here! She is SO FUN!!Either the video didnt have sound or my internet has gone bonkers (which is very possible), because I couldn’t hear the verbals but I could see you talking to her LOL!
Her commitment is very strong and she is very speedy, which might be why you felt like you were not moving a lot on the wing reps – you were moving plenty, but she is fast so you didn’t have far to go before she committed.
So one thing that will help is to spread out the first wrap wing even more from the wing-jump setup, that’ll give you more room to move forward.
Also, you can handle less by moving forward until she makes a choice to wrap the wing (it will feel like a late front cross :)) Your handling was REALLY nice – for example, check out the lovely timing and rotation on the front cross at 1:14!
But to help her learn the verbals, you don’t need to support the turns with handling – just move towards the wing and use the verbal 🙂 when she turns, you can front cross and run as part of the reward.When you went to 2 jumps – nice go lines! Those were easy for her. Yay!
For the wraps, you can definitely move more on those, this might be where you felt like you were not moving a lot – try starting with your hand on her collar then let go and move forward. That can feel less like a send and you’ll be able to move more.I think she didn’t get a reward at 3:09? Looking at it on the video, it was a good turn so you can reward.
For now, anything that isn’t taking that second jump on a wrap cue is rewardable 🙂
The only other question she had was at 3:51 – that was you stepping to the backside as you were indicating the jump, so just move straight up the line to the wrap wing, don’t try to handle or step or send. You might be trying to step to take off and you don’t need to for her – she has great commitment!!!So for the next session, try the wing wrap to the 2 jumps, with you moving forward but not trying for any timely front crosses or stepping to the jump.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Good session here! Thanks for leaving the “naughty” in LOL! It is very useful:Interesting frustration behavior from him when he was incorrect on the 2nd rep and he took the toy and left. Clearly the marker and withholding reinforcement was too much punishment (I know it seems like it shouldn’t be, but he says it is, and the dog gets to make that decision)
So if he has an error, call him back and reset him at your side with a cookie. I think that will be much more happy-making than a “you’re wrong” moment and should keep him in the game better. He definitely finds this game hard, because even on the correct reps, he is still a little wide (it would look like turning on landing).
After 1:27, he was starting to get tighter, which is great! We are definitely going to build on that, because he was really starting to turn before the wing. Yay!
No need for a go cue when it is just a wing – that is confusing, because he would have to ignore the wing (go only really applies to bar, and we don’t really want him ignoring the wing). Looks like the tooth hug/belly punch was produced by that (1:57 ish) because the go didn’t make sense and he had been wrong. So you also reset with cookies after errors like that, to help protect your flesh lol
And sounds like Callie had the same question on the go: “why would we ignore the wing??” The Go applies to the first jump when you have 2 jumps there, it is not just permission to take the second one 🙂
I think we give him one more session like this with the wing (only wraps, no go) with you increasing your motion… then onwards to adding the jump. He was really starting to get the collection nicely!!
Nice work 🙂 let me know what you think!
TracyHello and welcome!!!
Several folks have said the same thing about training tons of verbals but having trouble using them at trials. I’m going to add some humans games for that LOL!
Have fun!
TracyHi!
Interesting that she hit the wing on the first rep! She didn’t do that again but we will definitely keep an eye on it! She also hit the bar turning right on the first rep, so we can add in some games later on to help her be super successful on the first reps.She did a good job on the wing but was rounding her line more than collecting – so adding the jump definitely made it harder!!! She approached the jump a little differently each time, it was actually pretty interesting to see her work it out! She started over the bar with hitting it and then had some wider turns… but got better and better each time. Yay! And she was definitely more balanced by the end.
Because she hadn’t done the same thing twice over the bar on this session 🙂 give her a day off from it then do the same exact session again (with the 2 jumps, not the wing and jump). I bet latent learning kicks in and you’ll see her be able to produce consistent, tight turns while you add more motion.
And also, with 2 jumps, have them about 6 feet apart so you can also use your GO verbal as a balance.
Great job! Let me know how she does in the next session!
TracyHi!
The session went well!
No need for balance reps when it is just the wing – it doesn’t make a lot of sense to the dogs, because it asks her to ignore the wing which we dont want her to do. The “go” reps come in when we add 2 jumps 🙂She did well sorting out the wraps nicely – she was figuring out that it was not just going straight, but it was hard enough that she wasn’t tight yet – she is still processing so the turning was happening a bit late (if there was a bar there, she would be landing then turning).
So for the next session, keep the same setup (but only do wraps). You’ll know when you can go to the next step (more motion and the wing before it) when you see her decelerating and starting to bend before the wing.
It will probably only take one more session.About the jump verbal – jump and go might be redundant? Or jump might not be a full on extension, it might be more of a semi-extension followed by a slight turn (which is perfectly fine, I use it like that :))
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHello and welcome!!
>> I realized I’m not quite sure how the dog should really look over the bar when jumping right/left. I guess what I’m unsure of is if their body should be more “turned” over the jump or if they actually end up kind of slicing it in the direction of the turn. So better understanding how they really setup for a right/left and where the bulk of the turning happens would help me get a better picture in my head.
This is a good question! What the turn looks like on the takeoff side and over the bar will depend on 2 things:
– how the dog is built
– the angle of approach in the sequence (which can vary, depending on the course design)But in general, the dog will be jumping on the part of the bar that is halfway between the center and where the bar meets the wing. And the dog should be looking in the new direction. On easier angles of approach, it will look like a slice. You’ll see more collection on harder angles of approach.
>> My other question was in differentiating between a 90 degree left say for a 180 and the more gradual left for say a 45 degree pinwheel. Especially if a judge sets it up so both are options with say the pinwheel being the off-course. I know we’ve used the arm for right/left before, but I wasn’t sure on verbals vs handling>[
For me, it will depend on how I want the dog to land and the timing of the cue. If the middle jump of the pinwheel requires a turn where the dog need to land roughly parallel to the bar, the I would use the left or right turn verbal. If it is more of a gentle arc, then a name call or general jump cue will work.
And if I don’t want the middle jump, then I would time a left or right verbal a lot sooner so the dog knows which jump I want the turn on.
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyHi! I totally understand growth spurts and heats!! We go until March 1st here, so hopefully you’ll have a chance to get more videos 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>> And it’s interesting how I don’t fling for the first rep but do for the second😂😂!
You have gone into a higher state of arousal LOL!
>> I will give it try tomorrow, with water not my coffee yet lol!
Yes, start with water before going to something precious like coffee 🙂
>>Why does this dog insist on pushing me so hard😂! I get away with NOTHING! She has instituted nothing in life is free for me😂. She’s one of those dogs that changes everything.>>
I agree! She will lead you down new paths – it might not be easy at first but the results will be so completely worth it!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I haven’t named soft or hard turns at jumps/tunnels because I haven’t trained them. I WISH I had both.
It is relatively easy to apply the verbals to tunnels – generally use the verbal about 4 to 6 feet before the dog enters the tunnel, and place the reinforcement on the desired exit line. The dogs catch on really quickly!
>> How to define/differentiate them is something that I am not clear on. I’ve also thought about teaching a verbal for 180*’s. Do you think that is something that would be useful?>>
I use my left/right verbals for those. So you can teach a separate 180 verbal, but you might not need to.
On the video –
the wing and jump combo is definitely challenging for her! It was interesting that she was not sure about moving forward to the wing on that first rep. She got better after that, but with the added motion, she was definitely wider on the wing (you noted it, thinking maybe she was looking for a thrown toy? But it might just be that without ‘handling’ it, she was finding it hard to process the verbals and that is fine – the more we expose her to this, the easier it gets to process the verbals 🙂In the middle of the video, you had the bar pretty tall – that was too big of a skip ahead, so I am glad you went back to the lower bars – that is where she will get more of her processing done. I think she did well on those! One question – at :48, it sounds like you told her “oh no” and didn’t reward… but on the reps after that, she produced basically the identical behavior and got rewarded. It is possible that she touched the bar on the rep at :48 but I would still reward that for two reasons:
– we humans are incredibly inconsistent about rewarding or not rewarding when the dogs touch a toe nail to the bar. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t… and that is confusing to the dogs. So for now, just reward even if you think you heard her tick the bar.
– by the time we realize the dog has ticked a bar, the decision that caused it is miles in the rear view mirror for the dog so she is not likely to know why she is not getting rewarded. So she slowed herself down on the rep after that but we don’t want her to slow downSo for now, just ignore anything about the bar and reward anything that is within criteria (which she was there). Let me know if that makes sense!
I think she is ready for you to add the wing wrap before the 2 jump setup. Go back to walking forward like you did here, that was great! Nice work – let me know how she does!
TracyHello and welcome! I am excited to see you and Sly play these games!!!
Totally understandable that you want to start with one wrap cue. The key is to prioritize – what is important? Train that. Then you can add more later, or not! If we try to train ALL the things, it is easy to get overwhelmed and end up training nothing LOL!
>>Hope I don’t regret that and well….if I find out I really need separate ones then we’ll just have another training project 🙂>>
You won’t regret it – either you will find your way cue is all you need, or you might at some point decide to add another. Either way is a winning situation!
>>On a totally separate subject….Sly offered to tug with his leash last week at a trial while we were waiting on line for the ring crew to change the table legs 🙂 WOOHOOO!!!!>>
YAY SLY!!!! That is exciting!! I am glad to hear he is feeling so comfy in the ring!
Tracy
Hi! Good session here! Her jumping looks good – she is setting her hind end well, not flinging herself, and creating really nice fast lines, so I am happy to continue to let her sort it out. At the moment, she is finding the right balance of the ‘go fast’ and the ‘turn tight’ 🙂 so as long as she knows where she is going and responds to the cues, we are going to let her keep doing that.
She really only had one error moment (2 in a row) – it could have been her looking at the toy on the ground at the left turn, then realizing she was wrong and offering going straight when you wanted the right turn. But otherwise, she was strong here on her wraps 0 see below for ideas on next steps.Her main question was about going straight! The “jump” verbal and the placement of reinforcement out ahead are not synced, in her view. She just didn’t seem to know to look for the reward out ahead on the straight line balance reps. It is possible that the reward marker “toss” has built in looking at you and the toy being tossed from you (and she is used to seeing that). So when you said ‘toss’ on the straight line reps, she wanted to look at you.
I like all of my directionals to also predict/imply placement of reinforcement, so you can break down the ‘jump’ verbal to just mean ‘toy out ahead’ without a marker that might accidentally draw focus back to you (if you have a marker that only means “toy out ahead” you can use that otherwise the jump cue and context can predict the availability of the reinforcement. You can just use one jump, say the cue, throw the reward. In that scenario, the reinforcement can be available based on context because you probably have not done any self-control work of throwing a toy on her line when she is working and NOT want her to get it (nor do we want to do that – if I say a forward cue and throw a reward on the line, I want the do to get it in response to the cue. Too much ‘don’t get a toy that I have presented as an obviously available reinforcement’ can be frustrating to the dogs :))
OK back to the wraps 🙂 Now let’s add more of your motion (note how w are adding motion, not handling :))
Using the same setup but now adding the wing before it: start close to the wing, wrap her around it, start moving forward and say you wrap cue (at a walk, but in motion the whole time). Move straight forward, no handling or rotation needed – when she makes a decision to wrap (versus go straight) you can takeoff and turn and reward 🙂
At first your line of motion will be towards the wing you want her to turn on. After a couple of sessions with you adding more and more of your speed you can make it harder by having your line of motion go a bit more towards the bar, so it is less obvious if you want her to wrap towards you or wrap away (for now, they are still wraps towards us).let me know what you think! Great job here!
Tracy
