Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
This video is hilarious! Good point about paying more attention if the drink was higher value. That beverage looked delicious, what was it? Your connection looked stunning, and honestly I have never seen you smile so much while handling LOL!!!!! It might have been the reinforcement value of the drink. Now I am thirsty LOL!
Ok, now it is time to go to a water bottle and add in Sprite, maybe on just a tunnel – jump line that is very simple. Then we can work our way back up to whatever this delicious beverage was LOL!!!!
In the high heat, I have done this with ice cream too, VERY fun and reinforcing for humans and dogs if you like vanilla or strawberry ice cream!!
Tracy
Hi!
I agree, it is fascinating to see how our connection helps the dog (or causes questions when we disconnect).
The Forum will be open for video review til Sept 15. Have fun on vacation!Tracy
Hi!
Sounds like you are on vacation and that is great! Hope you have a relaxing, enjoyable time!!!
>>I have put a lot of effort into that behavior but if I hold his collar more than once or twice at the start of the run he starts standing a few feet away when it is time to start (not optimal). So I need a different version of start with me. Luring him next to me in “heel” position either gets stare at me or take off down the line – neither is what I want. I am thinking of training either a chest touch or chin rest start to use when I don’t want a start line (and until his start line is solid – any thoughts?>>
Bearing in mind that he is only in the 10-11 month range, these behaviors of not coming in close could also be a sign that things are too hard and/or there is not enough reinforcement (plus pre-existing icky feelings about it). He is in full-on adolescence where he wakes up each day to a brain & body that is different, so easing the pressure helps as does making training ridiculously simple for a while. I have found that adolescents will present these behaviors when things are too hard and easing up for a while magically eliminates the behaviors. So, if he goes once really well with the collar hold? Don’t ask for it again, take a break, then come back later for the 2nd part of your turn (I split turns for youngsters all the time). And, since there are existing icky feelings – you don’t want old icky feelings to then become an issue with new icky feelings. The joys of adolescent dogs 🙂
I think the luring is fine into heel position, but that is a ton of pressure for baby dogs who are already feeling the pressure simply by being in a ‘work’ environment, so I suggest lure to heel then feed the treat by tossing it away (to turn off the pressure, because the lure close to you might be negative reinforcement more than it is positive reinforcement).
Chest touch and chin rest are often too much pressure for baby dogs, particularly because of the physical contact and we have to lean over them – icky. LOL!
>>. I guess after writing about Lanna a trained wrap the body would be an option too.
Yes – wrapping behind like this, built up slowly:
Or take a cone or wing and have him wrap it as the start obstacle before running into the sequence.
But most of all, if he is feeling any pressure getting started at this age, dial it back so he is super comfy and makes it through adolescence with happy feelings 🙂
>>She is starting to throw out an angry Smurf behavior where my timing sucks, she gets mad, and then stares and screams at me while screaming and not engaging obstacles. If it was one obstacle, who cares, but I am have trouble getting her back looking at any obstacles.
This is pretty common with a lot of dogs – they simply don’t know what to do when presented with certain human behaviors so they change arousal state. She barks & stares, some dogs sniff, some dogs have big zoomies.
So basically we need to teach her a coping skill for when cues are imperfect, to get more resilience and to give her a specific behavior to do when things are unclear in terms of other behaviors.
Knowing that I will make plenty of handling mistakes, I make sure my dogs are all confident with the Find My Face game as the coping skill & alternate behavior. Teaching it this way builds a very positive response to my sucky handling. That, plus teaching the dogs what to do when the other info is unclear, allows them to stay centered in their arousal and get right back to ‘work’. It is also trial-legal 🙂 And not punishing to the dog:
>>If I sit her (in a polite can you sit, I take 1 step, and off we go) she will recollect and run again as previous. However, the second time I did this at the trial I felt some vibes coming from her that it felt like punishment. >>
I agree that this becomes a negative punisher – running is the gateway to earning the reinforcement, so stopping & sitting is removing that opportunity. Plus she is already in a non-optimal arousal state when it happens, which can lead to more icky feelings.
>> I am trying to come up with a reset behavior pattern that would get her head in the game and both of us facing the same direction. I’ve seen people use a wrap the person but I have seen some weird behaviors crop in with that.>>
I don’t like the person wrap in the ring either. I like Find My Face because I can keep moving and reset the dog as I turn and go again, with no change in arousal state. Like everything else, it needs to be trained to fluency before she would need it in the ring – fortunately it is easy and fun to train. I have a real life example of it at the end of the video:
The other thing that works amazingly well is to simply keep going no matter what has just happened, in training and in trialing. This the BEST thing for the dogs and the HARDEST thing for the humans. But when the humans ignore any errors in themselves or dog errors, the dogs are much happier and less frustrated in the ring, and the results are outstanding.
So, if you make a handling mistake and she goes past a jump or off course? Note it in your mind by keep going, fix it later. If you stop, even if the dogs get a reward in training…. it can still be a little frustrating to the dogs (and a LOT frustrating in trials where there is no reward available in that moment and they have no coping skills).
With that in mind, looking at the videos from the behavior perspective (because the handling was mostly lovely and you fixed any handling bloopers with connection the next time through):
Lanna video 1:
She finds a lot of great lines here on Video 1!Try to get more reinforcement into driving the big lines and being correct, rather than the stopping and using reset cookies, or stopping after errors. Yes, there were cookies involved after some or all of the errors but there is still some frustration that gets built into the errors, and definitely more room for reinforcement for going fast on the big lines 🙂
When you stopped to reset after an error, I think the better option is to just keep going and fix it in the next run (the handling errors were connection errors).
At the beginning, you pulled her off 3 and into the tunnel – she got stopped and a cookie then re-started. In this situation, you won’t see any obvious signs of frustration because there is a cookie immediately. But it will ultimately be better to just keep going and reward at the end (because she was correct based on handling cues) rather than stop & fix, particularly because there will be no cookie in the ring.
A similar thing happened at :51 (broken connection, high arm, so she did not know which side to be on and didn’t take a jump). I am not sure if she got a cookie there, but you did a collar grab and a re-start… better to just keep going so she can get rewarded for running the line and not have any stops (in that moment of stopping, we are not entirely sure if the cookie is a positive reinforcement or stopping and eating it is actually a negative reinforcement – it might be a negative reinforcement based on how a lot of the dogs respond, compared to simply continuing the sequence as if there was no error (because from her perspective, there was no error, she was reading the handling correctly).
She was great on the big line around the back of the tunnel! So try to get rewards in for that, as if it was the end of the course, before asking her to weave – weaves are a high risk obstacle in terms of failure, so we want to keep the reinforcement rate high by getting rewards in before she might fail.
The difference in rewarding the big line versus stopping, giving a cookie, then restarting? Our behavior is entirely different – on the big line, we are running, we are telling the dogs they were correct, yay, woohoo! On the re-starts? We are stopping, calling the dog to us, cookie with less energy, collar grab… totally different and the dog knows the difference and that is why it can often be more of a punisher than a reinforcement.
On the 2nd video:
Lots of good examples of the difference reward delivery here – lots of “yes, you are correct, hooray!” and moving reinforcement while you ran a bit – plus she got her weaves too which might be partially because she had already seen them in the previous run, and partially because she was in a more optimal arousal state.Arram video 1:
I think you can take the same approach with him as with Lanna – you can also teach him Find My Face as well as keep going after a handling error with him too! He is still learning the foundation stuff so when there is a handling error, he is presenting frustration behavior which we want to note and get rid of (by reducing frustration), before it becomes more obvious.
For example, at :12-:13, your tunnel cue was too rotated (connection was ahead of him and your shoulders were pointing to the other end of the tunnel) so when you stopped, he started jumping up at your arm and the toy. The similar thing happened at 2:26 – unclear cue, so he jumped up a little. We don’t want dogs to develop their own coping mechanisms (jumping up, barking, sniffing) so just keep going so he doesn’t realize there is any error in handling. You can then come back in the next go-round and fix with more connection or a placed reward.
Note how when the cue is clear, he does not do that. He was quite lovely finding those lines! So keep things very simple and clear, and if you make a mistake, don’t stop to fix it – just keep going and reward somewhere else.The dogs end up finding lines better when we don’t stop and fix, because we clarify our handling and they stay in a better state of arousal 🙂
2nd video – This was a good video to look at how environment can change his behavior! On this one, when the distraction level was high in spots (people putting the weaves away) and the skill difficulty was high (backsides) you can see he could not quite process *both* so you got some frustration behavior (sniffing by the tunnel). When the distraction level was a little less, he was able to find the backside and the other lines. So be sure to dial back the difficulty of the skill if he is struggling with the distraction level – this is true for all dogs, particularly adolescents who have to grapple with their ever-changing brain 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, it was a bit boring 🙂 The final stretch was trough the Blue Ridge Mountains in West Virginia and VA, which was gorgeous but harder to drive in the RV.
>>.Agility has come a long way from the “run with your dog and go forward” days
SO TRUE! Ha!!!! Those were happy times – things are much more complex now LOL!
You can also rotate the jump a bit, so it is easier for her to see the bar when she exits the tunnel. It is a serp, so you can rotate it like we do in the serp games 🙂
Keep me posted about the vet appt!
TracyHi! This is looking great!! And I loved hearing her human and animal audience cheering in the background 🙂 You all make it so fun for her and I agree, I think she really enjoys it.
Seq 1: The lead out blind looked great – timing was really good and she reads the blind super quick! You can lead out further so you can be moving towards 3 sooner and to set the line sooner, since she is moving so fast.
When you did the lead out to the throwback, you can get close to #3, close enough to touch it. On the first rep, she turned well but I agree that picking her up on you right will be clearer for her.
At :24 you were right on the line to the tunnel then moved backwards at :29 so she read it as the cue for the tunnel (backwards motion is the same as forwards motion LOL!) Note how at :56 you were right at 3 and she never looked at the tunnel – perfect!Sequence 2:
This went REALLY well too!Both of your handling options on 3-4 looked great – and what you did 3-4 changed the line 5-6. When you went to the takeoff side of 3, the RC at 5 went better because you were not as far ahead. The BC on landing of 3 was great, but it did put you a little far ahead of her at 1:24, 1:37 , 1:47 and 1:59 – so the RC was not as smooth there. You can make it more smooth by getting the BC then decelerating at 4 til she catches up to set the RC, then move forward up the line.
The BC on the ending line 8-9 on the landing of 8 worked GREAT at 2:06, because it got you further ahead up the last line.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Somehow I thought using my threadle word, somehow turned it into a threadle.
The verbal does turn it into a threadle – it names her behavior, not yours LOL! Her behavior on both of these videos is threadle. Your behavior on the previous video was forced front and on today’s video is threadle LOL!
The lead out threadles look good, she seemed to have no trouble reading them. And you had your threadle arm in position before the release, which is great!
Question – have you considered using one arm for the threadle rather than the cross arm? The one-armed threadle here n these lead outs is soooo much easier than the cross arm. The cross arm might be why they feel awkward. The one-arm threadle is very easy 🙂
>>We made the big move of entering 1 speedstakes run each day at a UKI trial over Labor Day weekend at 16s to do NFC and play around.>>
YES! And for UKI NFC, you don’t even have to jump 16, you can put her at any height (just talk to the trial secretary). nd you can have a helper in the ring, for toy throws, etc.
>>Dellin is making good progress, but she definitely has opinions, so we’ve been respecting that and working with her. I keep every session to 4 reps and that seems to be working for her. Would you be open to seeing a bit of teeter video?>>
I would be happy to! What are her opinions? Most dogs have opinions about the teeter 🙂 Looking forward to it!!!
Nice work here 🙂
TracyHi!
She is doing well with her lefts and rights here! The dogs sometimes trot when we start this, so no worries about that and we can tweak the mechanics to get her bouncing more:
To get more power into this, you can change her line up differently. Rather than start with her having to turn away from you into it (which is slower), have her start at your side and facing the direction you want her to go (like you did at :41 for example). Have her line up at your side, facing the wings, with you holding her collar: then say left or right a few times while still holding her… then let go and she will move through the little pinwheel.
Nice work here! Let me know how it goes when you line her up at your side.
Tracy
Hi!
This is good information from Changtse that the noise is concerning to her! It is indeed very loud and bouncy – each hit of the board produces multiple noises as it rebounds, rather than one quiet noise. So, watching these 2 videos, a couple of suggestions:– dampen the noise a lot by putting towels or cloth so that when the board moves, it doesn’t rattle as much and it is more stable (doesn’t bonce around behind her). Put the sound dampeners in 3 places: where the board meets the Teach it, where the board meets the ground, and on the teeter base (you can put tunnel bags on the teeter base to stabilize and quiet it).
– use insanely high value treats or her favorite toy like a ball. And when the teeter makes a noise, throw the toy or treat far from the teeter so she runs to go get it 🙂 That will keep her pumped up from the running, and get her away from the noise (which is a bit of negative reinforcement to go along with the positive reinforcement).
– You can be sitting – that seemed to go better than when you were standing.
Let me know how it goes! It is normal that adolescent dogs have a period where they think the teeter is icky 🙂 so we will work her through it 🙂
Tracy
Hi! These are looking really good!
>> She’s great with a wing.
Agreed! And she is perhaps a little bored with just the wing LOL! Since the wing stuff looked strong on both sides, my only suggestion on those is to be a bit wilder on the strike exits – get excited and run faster to ger her to dig in and chase you out of it. You can take off and run and say strike and make silly noises, whatever she likes that can help her want to chase you, so that the wrapping gets super fun because it is a chase game and not a game where she stops 🙂 (Yes, I realize it might be 108 degrees so just do a little, here and there. 🙂
>>So, I think she is trying to figure out jumping organization. The markers are at 5, 10, 15 and 20 ft. Bar at 12 in on left turns and 12 and a few at 16 on right turns. Ultimately she will jump 20 in.>>
Yes, she is doing well on the jumping. Still sorting organization but I think she is in “working” memory where she has to think about it rather than “procedural” memory where it is 2nd nature. But, it will be wired in soon! The wraps are good when you are standing still facing the wing. Note how they are instantly improved by adding a bit of handling in the form of rotation and countermotion, at :45 and 1:35! Yay!
>>I wasn’t sure what you meant by the outside hand. Did I do it correctly minus the swoosh towards the jump that she doesn’t need?
Yes, that is one way to do it – basically you are rotated and the exit hand is placed right in front of the bar. You added a countermotion element by running the other direction, which she did great with 🙂 I didn’t really see a swoosh! And her turns looked really good: we want powerful bends and not slow bends, and we were getting the powerful bends here.
>>If I use the Cato board how far in front of the jump would I put it? Also, I’d then just go back down the line so I’m not having her turn and burn over it?>>
It has to be a Cato plank (the narrow one) so she has to get into a tight sit. The Cato board is too big 🙂 The plank would be about 10-12 inches form the bar (varies for each dog, so you can experiment with it). And correct, you would not want to do a tight turn and burn, so a looser variation of that turn would work.
>>I might be brave enough to film the FC with a beverage after Pilates tonight. But, I’d hate to spill my cocktail!
Start with something low value, like water LOL!!! Protect the cocktail!!!!
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
These are also looking great!!!>>I didn’t set him up well for the first rep but he did awesome the rest of the time
yes, on that first sequence and on the others, you can center him more on the bar of #1. What I mean but that is that he should be facing the center of the bar but on a slice so he can see 2 clearly and see you by looking at the uprights more than going around the first one. That would be moving him over about 2 feet to the right side of the screen here 🙂
He read the 2nd rep really well, nice job with the blind and ending line!!! And the throwback rep looked great – my only suggestion is to lead out closer to 3 but you already noted that 🙂 His stays are looking great too – I love how he sassed you a bit but he also gets a gold star for ignoring the horse.
And when you put it all together at the end? Terrific! He was responsive and tight on the blind, and super fast on all the lines. No problems finding the straight line at all, even with the reward hitting the wing 🙂
Great job!!!
TracyHi there!
He did really well with these and you were very clever to have both sides set up so you can switch directions easily 🙂 You had really strong upper body position and connection on all of these, so he was able to find the serp lines very well 🙂 On the tunnel-jump-jump reps, I think you can tighten the jump line a little bit.
>> I think st the end I had tried to straighten the angle of the jumps a little too much for what I was asking and he had too much speed coming in. So we had a couple failures and I decided to stop there for the evening.>>
My video might be wonky, but I only saw one question from him, which was at 1:05 – this might be the only spot where having the extra jumps set up did not help because he took one of the extras before coming into the serp line. I think that was more about the angle he was coming into it from – taking the additional jump after the tunnel set up a zig zag line for the serp so he ran past the last jump. Taking out the additional jump after the tunnel and the FC into the serp line will smooth it all out. Let me know if there were other errors I missed?
Great job!
TracyHi! This sounds good! We want to be as gradual as possible, to help maintain the fabulousness we are seeing here 🙂
TracyHi!
Hope she is feeling better!
>>Any advice on getting her to commit to the landing side blind.
Do you mean after the tunnel? As soon as she approaches the tunnel, call her then do the blind so when she exits, you are already passing the jump and looking at her over the new shoulder.
Or do you mean on the 1-2-3 opening? That is a matter of getting more lateral distance, so running up that line further from it but on a parallel line will help (without the bind, for now) and throw lots of rewards to the landing side 🙂
TracyHi!
I am glad you liked these 🙂 The distance skills are cropping up everywhere, not just NADAC anymore 🙂A couple of general ideas for you:
because she is quick to let you know when she is BIG MAD by leaving to chase shadows, be sure to reward all the things in handling very quickly, without letting on that there was an error (errors in sequences are either handling errors or a reflection of stuff we haven’t trained, so basically all human error :))
The two options are to either do an immediate reset cookie like at 1:32, or don’t stop at all – keep going, get her back on the line to the next jump and reward as if it went entirely according to plan 🙂And, live by the 2 failure rule. If she fails twice in a session? Make it easier, often by increasing connection or motion, or by moving the obstacle in closer when working distance.
On seq 1, by starting too far from the #1 wing, you ended up too decelerated for now. Starting closer to the wing totally helped because you can set the line in motion. When you had the motion, it was all very easy and she nailed it. Good job adding the full sequence! My only suggestion is to either do the spin at 5 sooner (decelerating as she is over 4 so you can start it when she lands) or just decel, send and go – not spin. The spin was a little late so she was wide. She found the line to the tunnel really well, even with massive distance. YAY!!
Seq 2: as you noted in the video – yes, more connection helped with the BC before the tunnel (arm back, looking her directly in the eyes like you did at 3:25). And count the failures – there were 4 failures and she was getting BIG MAD which is not a state we want her in 🙂 After 1 error with a blind exit, ramping the connection up will usually fix it immediately.
The RC on the tunnel entry looked good! She looked less comfy with it but it will be useful! So many dogs have trouble with that but it looks like she turned correctly each time. SUPER!
Seq 3 – She also did well with the jump-tunnel discrimination of going past the tunnel! In the early stages, you can be pushier with the out by driving in a little more and even use the outside arm if needed. This will also help in new environment or if she is more stimulated. By the end of this sequence, she was doing a great job of taking the jump not the tunnel pretty much on just the verbal. YAY!
And she found the backside of the tunnel very easily – as you noted in the video, just remember to connect after the tunnel to get her back on the line at 4:26 and 4:39 – plan that in your walk through, by rehearsing your arm back and delivering the verbals directly to her cute little face 🙂
She had a couple of bars down towards the end – they were probably fatigue because it is a LOT of yardage for the dogs on these (not a lot of yardage for the humans LOL!) Ad that last sequence looked great!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
