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Hi!
>>I want both of them to have a solid Go. As in I am way behind so you run in extension and take what is on your line. So they would be in full extension and not head checking me.
Yes – full extension, center of the bar, looking forward, even if you are ahead or parallel to them.
>>I want a dig dig. For me that means turn back to me when you jump. This is where I get confused – I think before she jumps she would be getting herself in some collection since she is turning back to me and then landing on her way back.>>
Yes – let’s make this more specific because “turn back to me” is a bit too general and also she has to split time figuring out where you are and how to get organized for the turn/jumping effort. So, first thing is to define what the turn is: is dig dig a wrap, where she comes all the way back around the wing? Or is it a soft turn where she is not going straight, but turning on a 90 degree-ish angle and not coming back around the wing?
I recommend wrap cues be different than soft turns cues, because the behaviors are entirely different. I’ve got little drawings in my workbook answers so you can see what I mean.
>>I def want an In to help support a threadle. Winn understands this to mean she comes in to me then goes back out and take the jump. Maple doesn’t really know it yet. I’m not sure what I’m asking for in body position. I need help with that part.>>
The in in threadle is usually a threadle slice and we use placement of reinforcement to help the dogs understand the default behavior of taking the jump after coming in. The body position for the dogs will vary depending on the context, but generally there is collection on the obstacle before the threadle (on a jump threadle and also on a tunnel threadle) and that is where wrap cues or soft turns cues come in very handy! We will work a bit on threadles later in the course.
This week is all about wraps, so let’s define them and add the verbals (dig dig dig is probably a wrap cue to come all the way around the wing). Next week is ‘soft’ turns, more of the 90 degree angles, so we can teach her the verbals for that!
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! You are off to a great start (and you are exciting, because my dogs are next to me moaning because they want to play with you LOL!)
The dig dig dig is your existing verbal and those reps went well – you had a lot of speed going so be careful not to add tooooooo much speed, too soon.
>>One rep he thought rear cross () because my feet were facing the wrong way (not towards the jump). I assume he was correct? >>
He was not actually correct… but also the behavior is too new to ask that difficult of a question with it (new verbal, all the speed plus turning early).
Now, bearing in mind that this verbal was added literally yesterday 😁 we are relying on the jump wing to help create the behavior – so move more slowly as you add the new word, making sure you spend a lot of time in the walk and job level before adding the simulation of running. Walk and jog allow time for that active processing that the dogs need to do. And in that walk-jog level you can totally turn your feet away nice and early because on course, you would be turned and leaving that early 🙂
>>even if my feet/body aren’t right, should I expect him to go to the jump and wrap it since he’s sort of looking at it anyway? Actually, just wondering how perfect I need to be.>>
Yes, the end goal is that the verbal overrides your motion so you don’t have to be perfect (because perfect is nice but nearly impossible LOL!) But keep it easier for a few sessions then ask the same question with all the speed and new verbal (and I bet he is perfect, he was immediately successful again when you dialed the speed back a little).
When you added the wing, you were slower in your motion because he was faster in his, and that is great!! He did really well here, even in the moments where you were trying to leave a little sooner. Check out that magical commitment moment at :40 where you were turning sooner (appropriately sooner, not too early) and he went and committed – you had great connection going so you marked it and reward. YAY!!! That was a big moment for him.
>>Falco tires easy because he only contains 30% border collie genetics
Ha! Yes, the non-BC are going to tell you: Yes, I’ve got it, why are we doing this again? And they might even change behavior because they are not sure why there are so many reps LOL! So… super short sessions like these are perfect!
For you next session, use the wing like you did here on your 2nd session and dial back your motion to work the new verbal with you leaving earlier.
If he is super successful with that, add more of your motion and running and flailing arms and early leaving and all the things we are not supposed to do… but we do anyway 🙂If that goes well and he is super successful? Then you can start over with the jump replacing the wing.
Because there is so much turning, spread these sessions out over a few days to ovoid overworking or overuse of his body.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Now that dogs are moving so fast and courses are so big, I don’t recommend combining cues because it can get confusing. Some ideas for you:
>>Right Means soft right. Check check is tight >>
If check check means the tight wrap, and right means the soft turn – if you say right, he should set himself up for the soft right and that is a really different jumping effort than the collection. If you use right then check for the wrap, he will either respond late to the check or he will just learn to ignore the right verbal which will mess up the soft turn cues.
>>But how does he know which direction without saying right check check?
I suggest leaving right and left for the soft turns. For the wraps, I suggest 2 different wrap cues: check check can mean wrap-to-the-right, and a different verbal can be added to mean wrap-to-the-left. That can really clarify for the dogs what you want, and it can give info so much sooner.
Picture it like this:
At an AKC trial, you can 20 feet from the tunnel exit to a jump with a turn on it – that is not a lot of distance for a big guy like Gramm! So if you say the verbal when he exits the tunnel, he will set up a better turn because he has the entire 20 feet to do it. If you use combos, like right-check – he is not going to set up turns as well because he needs to wait to know if it is “just” right, or if it is right plus the wrap.It is easy enough to add the different verbals and the results will be really nice and easier for you both 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Great question!
>>Would this second wrap not be a backside wrap? Or, Does it not really matter, at this early stage of learning, which side of the wing they start their wrap?>>
At this early stage, I don’t think it matters and I treat all of the wing wraps as front side wraps. I don’t think the dogs are looking at where the jump cups are. When I teach backside verbals, I have a bar visible so the dog understands that the backside involves going around to the other side of the jump to take the bar.
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I think we need to move 🙂 And Zillow is my other hobby now.>
I have also been looking at properties closer to ‘civilization’. LOL! Turns out it is a great time to sell but a tough time to buy 🙂 And speaking of spending time on Zillow, have you seen this:
You got lots done in the ring rental! Yay!
Tunnel threadles:
She is showing really strong tunnel commitment so now you can up-the-ante. Try to get the verbal going more independently of body cues. The goal is that you can be running forward on your line, say the word and move the threadle arm and she leaves you in the dust to turn herself into the correct entry of the tunnel, without waiting for foot rotation or the arm swoosh.
That means your feet would be pointing towards your next running line (not towards the tunnel entry) and you can give the verbal cue but don’t need to use your arm to swoosh her into the entry.
So looking at the reps when she was going into the entry with t he purple tunnel bag, for example: you can have your feet pointing towards the ring gates/wall (or that exit door in the corner) the whole time, rather than point your feet to the entry.
Then, as you say the verbal, your threadle arm should be raised but then leave it in threadle position until she turns herself away to the tunnel.
At :43 and :49, when you sent her into the tunnel on a ’normal’ tunnel cue, your feet are pointing to that wall and entry – so for the threadle, you would keep your feet pointing that way, and the threadle arm can stay up high as you move generally towards the tunnel entry you want. Resist temptation to turn away on the flat with the arm or feet – when she turns herself into the tunnel, mark it and reward 🙂The Didi 🙂 looked strong! She might have been a bit more fluid turning to her right for now but the left also looked good. She stepped on the bar in the middle in the last rep, so you can either lock it in or use a bump there.
>>I decided that for this type of soft arc, I will use the sprinkler. I’m going to use Left and Right for sharper turns.
Sounds good! The turn on the last bar in each direction is the tighter left or right that I think you are going to use those verbals for, so you can use the sprinkler to get her into the pinwheel then after the middle bar, switch to the left or right to cue the really tight line on the last one (and keep rewarding like you did :))
The wing wraps also looked really strong – refreshing the value is smart to start with. She totally generalized the behavior which is really exciting to see! And her commitment on the countermotion looked great – you were indeed leaving sooner and sooner, she maintained her commitment and turned really well.
In your next TnB session, start her further back from the wing. You were pretty close here, so she didn’t really have room to go fast then decelerate into the wrap. Now that she is so strong with this game, she is ready for that additional challenge: start her 10 or 15 feet from the wing so she can drive to it, decel/collect, drive out. That also gives you the opportunity to leave even sooner 🙂 If she struggles with the added distance, start it by walking then move to jog then running.
Th decel looked really good too, with a bar and more room we can totally see the adjustment into collection on the takeoff side. She wants to be a bit further from you, so tweak the reward placement: use a turn and burn exit (your running line will be parallel to the bar). That countermotion reward will help her drive in even closer to you on the turn and get herself organized for the collection 🙂 You did an extension lead out at the end of the decels and she was perfect – centered on the bar, in extension, looking straight. You can add running to those too.
The first lateral lead out surprised her, I think – maybe a bit too much swoosh on the send, if it was the rep following the extension? But good job rewarding it even though she was wide – she committed, she gets paid LOL! And the next reps were AMAZEBALLS! I am doing a happy dance about how she set up her turn: committing and collected for the turn and all you needed to do was just kind of point at it LOL! YAY!
>>Dellin has not done done much formal jump work – puppy bump grids and 8″ jumps – so I locked them in at 8″ for the last game, which was fine.
Yes, she is getting ready for more formal jump training. The concepts she is understanding will also help her jumping (as she displayed on the lateral lead outs!) and the grids plus handling concepts will all come together really nicely. I figure by the time she gets into any real jumping, you will have nice spring weather to work with – I prefer to teach jumping (especially turns) on grass.
>>I’m hoping to organize a jump grid class or seminar in the near future so she and her brother can start some work. I have volunteered someone in the house (who is not me) to teach that>>
Perfect! I hear that you might know someone with a wealth of knowledge on that topic who has taught that class in the past hahahaha!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I think he did a great job here – your added connection really worked and having the wing closer made the game more obvious to him. Super!!!!
One thing that was a nice by-product of that was he was not leaping up at you on the very first tunnel send – he was more settled and less aroused or frustrated, so that behavior simply went away. YAY! And you were even able to get some nice stay work happening there too. All good! Each rep looked great – tunnel commitment is definitely improving even with you running. And wing commitment looked fabulous, especially the turn and burns! Great job with your verbals too!So… keep this going, very gradually getting the wing further and further, moving a foot or less away from the tunnel after a few reps.
You can also squish up the tunnel a bit if he asks any questions about leaving you for the entry, so you can send to the tunnel and still be ahead for the line to the wing. He didn’t seem to need a shorter tunnel here, so maybe you won’t need to shorten it – but it is an option if he has any questions.
Great job!!
TracyHa! You are not a slacker 🙂 Default is basically the part of the behavior they should do that we don’t want to have to add an additional cue for – such as jumping the jump when the arrive at the backside, rather than waiting for us to cue it separately from the backside verbal.
T
Hi! These are terrific questions!
>> In the TNC last night it was mentioned that we should always be moving when training our verbals (not just standing still like we did back in the day). I’m wondering though, if we are always pairing our verbals with a motion cue, how will we know if the dog actually knows the verbal or if they are just following our motion?>>
Good question! Being in motion and supporting the cue with motion can be different. We start my supporting with motion but then the motion changes to be more of a distraction or a stimulation, making the motion far less helpful. For example on the wraps, as the dogs were figuring it out I started to do FCs a lot less and just moving forward, facing forward a lot more. Moving forward and not rotating is kind of the opposite of what the perfect motion cue would be 🙂 And a lot of the times, we are late with the physical cues anyway so the verbal cue becomes the primary cue (and in training, I try to be deliberately late sometimes to se if the dogs can still process the verbals.)
>>Also, is there a particular point in one of the demo videos where the dog is doing a fabulous head turn? I’m not sure what the head turn looks like or when it is supposed to happen.>>
It is probably easiest to see when the dog is descending from the apex of the bar. For example, looking at the wrap video with 2 jumps (the wrap part 2 game), you can see two instances where the dogs are jumping with their heads turned in the slow motion 7:03 and the slow motion after it, and then at 7:39 (which I think is the slow motion section). The dogs are jumping on the wrap side of the bar, looking the new direction as opposed to the balance ‘go’ rep where they would be looking straighter.
>>Off-topic question: What cue do you use for the broad jump? I’ve been using “Big”, which I also use for the double and triple. Annie steps on the broad jump almost every single time like she’s never seen it before. I think I need to retrain the broad jump with a brand new verbal. I was thinking of using “Fly”, but it sounds a little bit like “Climb”, which is my A-frame cue.>>
I am a bit of a slacker with the broad jump… I just say GO! LOL! That has worked for all domestic courses. When I took one of the dogs to compete in Europe, I trained the broad jump to also have the wrap or soft turn directionals (left or right or wrap) but never had to use it.
If she is stepping on it, yes – retrain it. Maybe put some jump wings on one board then 2 boards and so one, so she starts to see it as a jump? What about the word “long” (it is called the long jump in USDAA and UKI).
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is a really extensive list! I don’t see a ‘soft’ left or right on the jump or tunnel exit but I am guessing that is because you mentioned above that you don’t feel they are fully taught.
The next step with the verbals here is to think of what she will need to do very specifically on the approach to the jump, so she can execute the behavior (and so you can mark that decision :))
>> taught and used spin and twist as a left or right 360* turn.
Do you mean on the flat, like she is facing forward next to you and spins in a circle to the left or right?
>> I’ve gone back and forth since training the dw, and discussed with the instructor at the time, whether using spin and twist would muddle the cue.
If it is working on the RDW, it might be that she is just recognizes the context and has no questions. A parallel would be something like me saying “get it” for the dogs to pick up a toy, versus “get out” while running a course meaning to lead change away from me. The verbals might be similar but the context is so radically different that there are no questions from the dogs.
>>I know some people teach left and right using spins in either direction, so?!?!?!>>
Yes – and they they kind of have to re-teach it on the wing or cone. I don’t teach my verbals on the flat like that, so. I can train less (efficient? Lazy? Either way, I train less haha) – I teach the concepts to include the wing or cone from the start.
T
Hi! You are off to a good start here!
When you were walking, he did well, no problem with lovely turns. When you added motion, things got more exciting 🙂
Question – is the wrap verbal left/right, or check? At :13 and :18 you said right then you were quiet at :22, and said right right check check at :27 then check right right at :30 LOL!So, let’s clarify exactly what the verbal is: does right mean to wrap, or turn more of a general right? If it means to turn on a nice tight wrap, the n you don’t need the check check. If right is more of a general ‘soft’ turn, then don’t use ‘right’, just use check check is that is the tight turn cue 🙂
To clarify the verbals, definitely look at the definition and worksheet info:
so we can be super clear for him.
On the next session, add the distraction jump into the setup (the jump behind the wings here, about 6 feet away) as that will add more challenge for sure.
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Thinking about verbals and course design trends… you might play around with the different directionals for her left and right versus towards you or away from you. Because she is so speedy, and because course design has evolved to the point where we handlers are often pretty far from the dog – the specific verbals will be helpful!If the verbals means “towards the momma” then the first thing she has to process is where you are… then create the turn. That heartbeat of delay can create wider turns or decisions that are not correct and she might get frustrated. But if she hears “wrap to your left” then she can just do it, rather than first see where you are. Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Hi! This is a good start! I think the setup was too spread out though – you and the TnT were pretty far from the crate, so you can both be closer so he has less distance to travel for now.
Also, it is possible that to build crate value you don’t want to use the TnT at first – instead, toss the treat into the treat after he goes into it. Then eventually you can go back to the TnT.>>How much do I do this before moving on to the discrimination?
You will want to do this game until he is 90% successful or better… that means he basically goes into the crate right away each time, without stopping to barking or offering sits. And when he does that, you will want to put the verbal cue on it. When he is 90% successful or better with the verbal cue… then you can add it to the discrimination 🙂 The verbal cue is the important part of the discrimination.
Let me know how it goes!
TracyHi!
I totally understand how daunting it might be to have to add and train all of this stuff! I suggest choosing the one you think is important, we will focus on it… then when he has it, we move on to the next one. I do all of the teaching on wings so it is relatively easy for the dog to learn and easy on their bodies (and fast, because we don’t have that many hours in the day LOL!)T
Hi!
>>Rights and lefts!😳 I’ve tried several times and methods — she seems to guess. I haven’t found the key yet.>>
We do left & right next week… stay tuned 🙂
>>Actually, all of my verbals need work and proofing. My motion will override my verbals if the verbal will take her off what she perceives as the line.>>
these games will help a lot because she is going to have to process verbals in order to find the right line 🙂
T
