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Hi!
>>The training is not transferring to curves yet. Thoughts?
I think the training video looked great – the go cues in the trial were a massive leap forward in understanding, though, because you were decelerated/rotated or stopped and wanted her to continue past you. She is not ready for that yet – it is more send training than it is go training, with all of the motion.
Also, to really transfer to trials, you should do lots of FEO runs for toys! She looked a little uncomfortable in the trial ring – tighter spaces, or environment? Hard to know for sure but the FEO runs will really help!
>>Also, here is an example of the sudden struggles we are having. We did weaves through AgilityU when she was younger, and though her head has always been up high, she got the entries and always weaved well. Now it’s a mess. She has a vet appointment next week.>>
For now, I would give her a break from weaving til she is cleared by an ortho & PT vet because if it is physical then there is nothing we can do on the training side of things. When she is cleared, definitely do lots of FEO with a toy to help her see the weaves and love them in trials.
>>Are there any of the course maps I should be working on? I feel like I don’t know where to go next at this point.>>
To keep working on the independence of the Go lines and adding in more independent sends, I recommend the 2 sets of ESC games from Pack 2 and Pack 3, plus the 2nd live class stuff. All of those have really fun sequences for working on distance, sending, and driving ahead 🙂
Let me know how it goes!
TracyHi!
>>I’m trying to increase his arousal on the start line a little at home (and in classes) to mimic what he’s like at an actual trial. So, we’re doing some tugging and I let my 13-year-old BC be in the yard next to us barking her head off (which I used to avoid so that he could concentrate on what we were learning but now appreciate as a great distraction).>>
Perfect! Adding distractions at home I the best place to start.
>>He’s not the hugest fan of me tossing a toy behind him or to him on the startline. It’s not really reinforcing for him (same with a dead toy behind him that he could be released to). Manners Minder behind him is okay to be sent to instead of release but kind of an annoyance it seems. >>
It is that old saying, “reinforcement is in the eye of the reinforced” or something like that LOL! If it is not reinforcing… then it might actually do more harm than good so we can skip it 🙂 The release will be the key! He seemed to like it a bit when you tossed it off to the side so he could chase it. He interacted with it when you tossed it more directly to him, which is good, because at least it is reinforcement (although lower in value than the release).
>> if given a treat on the start line would spit it out and didn’t want to go back to or catch a toy, just wanted to be released forward.
Yep – the work is the reward, so the release will be the reward for maintaining criteria. It can be a little trickier because you have to watch very carefully, but I have total confidence that you’ll be able to do it.
>>Normally I always give a cookie for the sit on the line but I’m playing a little with weaning off that because I feel like in trials I don’t have that (even FEO/NFC). >>
I agree with weaning off the cookie for the sit at the start line – BC-types don’t love the cookie, and it builds us into the picture too much without the emphasis on the ‘stay here til released’ part.
>> could release him forward to tug but haven’t really tried that yet.>>
The first bunch of reps on the video had the toy on the line and he seemed very happy to drive to it, a work/toy reinforcement combo! When you added the handling:
Lead out to FC – easy! Looked great with lovely timing.
Lead out to BC – also easy, also looked great with lovely timing. As you mentioned, you can try running into it, it will feel better than standing still then blinding.
Lead out push – also super easy~ You can try moving sooner, as early as when you see him lifting off for 1.All the handling looked really strong!
>>In the trials he’s done so far it feels like we start out where we are at home on day 1 and generally early day 2, but then towards the end of the trial he gets more and more focused on/locked onto the first obstacles and doesn’t want to sit. >>
This is normal internal state shift that most dogs do, especially as arousal comes up and they get mentally tired. A couple of things to consider:
– practice stay positions in front of very stimulating things, like favorite toy on the ground, running dogs, water house turned on, etc – anything that he will want to stare at and not necessarily “hear” the sit cue.– you can also have a general stay cue where he picks the position. All 3 of my youngsters have that because I don’t care which position they are in, as long as they don’t move once they are in a position. So for one of them, I bring her to her line up spot, take the leash off, use a ‘stay’ verbal…. And walk to my lead out. She almost always assumes a stand, but sometimes does a sit. And she never moves (yay!). With one of the others, I use the stay verbal and he always sits. LOL! But also doesn’t break til the release. It has been a great ‘no fighting’ way to get the dog to the start line and into the course.
>>We get more barking waiting for his turn and entering the ring and then he just looks on to the obstacles with me in his peripheral vision. >>
This is where playing around with different pre-run games can help you sort things out – being further from the ring, pattern games (those REALLY help mine keep their eyes off the ring and in a centered state of arousal), tugging, tricks, etc. to see if you can help him achieve a centered, thoughtful state.
>>This past weekend the 3rd day I ran him off the line on some courses where you started mid-course into a u-shaped tunnel so it made sense anyway and at the very end when he couldn’t sit on the line I just had him wait in a stand and he did fine (but I also didn’t ask for a long lead out since we haven’t really trained that in a stand).>>
3 days might be too much if you are seeing a behavior shift and losing behavior – his adolescent brain might be tired so fewer days can help maintain behavior, or fewer runs across the days.
>>We are continuing to do a lot of offered sits for reinforcing things (Premack) especially for playing in the hose since that is VERY arousing for him and he’s doing well on that.
Ha! I was thinking the hose would be great for him LOL! You can do it as cued behavior, and in front of agility obstacles.
Nice work on the video! Let me know what you think about the stay ideas!
TracyHi!
This looked great! I was about to ask a question about the verbals but then you got them sorted out LOL! This game in particular will help him commit to wings on tight turns like wraps, even when you decelerate or rotate too soon (as sometimes happens 🙂 ) At this stage of training, young dogs will stop if we rotate too soon but this game promotes carrying on to the wing 🙂So the next steps would be to spread it out a little more so you both can run more, and work up to doing 3 then 4 wings in a row (and the racetracks to unravel it all :)) . That will add in the transitions into decel and the rotations, and he will commit more easily when you are rotated pretty early (try to be rotated before he even passes you :))
Great job!! Let me know how the next steps go.
TracyHi!
She is doing well with her teeter games here! The added motion of coming around the wing then up the board definitely seemed to help her drive up the board more than doing it from the stationary start, as long as you were moving straight (she had a few questions when you were changing positions a bit as she was going up the board).
Because she is making steady progress but also asking questions along the way, for future sessions you can leave the tip/setup exactly as you had it hear, no added tip and keeping the yoga mat in place (that was a clever ad-on!). But, start her around the wing so she is running up the board, and you can be moving alongside her. I would do that for 2 more short sessions with super high value food. And if she has no more questions? Add a little more tip, just a little 🙂 If she still has questions? Take out any tip and go back to going straight up the board with nothing moving. I am thinking she won’t have questions and you can add tip 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
I think these are Maisy’s favorite games so far!
She had no trouble at all with the 1-5 line as you moved further and further away.When you added the FC at :20, you can rotate and leave sooner: you started it on time (as she landed from 4) but then you stayed there too long – you were still at the jump as she was taking off at :21. So try to cue the tight turn and then head to 6.You can keep an arm pointing to the landing spot and maintain connection behind you to support commitment, but that will help get the tight turn and keep the bar up
You were earlier at :30 and the other FCs, but you can trust her more and leave even sooner, so she is passing you to 5 as you are already heading to 6.
The blind-to-throwback option also looked great at :40 and 1:05! Trust her more on that and be moving towards the bind the whole time. You left nice and early after the throwbacks!
Just be sure to keep cuing the line to 8, you pulled up short a bit on the last one and she skipped 8 at :34, :43 an 1:05. But when you cued it with the verbal and a bit of physical cue? She was perfect. Yay!
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>I went ahead and included the walk-throughs. I wanted to improve my connection as you mentioned in the last sessions.
I thought your connection was super strong here! Nice! And your rehearsals looked good – the work session with her showed up a couple of training questions (trained skills more than handling skills) and one handling thing to add to help out.
The threadle on 3 at high speed was the hard part – I think with you running, she needed a turn cue before she entered the #2 tunnel. It can be a name call to get her turning before she exits the tunnel, setting up the threadle more easily.
In the handling, pulling further away is a good idea for the threadle but it is limiting because you don’t want to pull toooooo far away -so the turn cue before the tunnel plus a little pulling away can help. She also did better without a lot of motion, so part of the training (and planning for course runs) is to reduce motion in those threadle sections so she can read the cues (upper body and verbal) that override motion.
Her only other question was weave understanding, popping out or needing you to go all the way to the end. that is something to train on a bit where you start her and let her finish without you, then throw the reward : )
>> but I also knew she would struggle with the RC at the weave entrance. We still struggle with a RC on a jump.
Those are 2 slightly separate skills – for the RC on the weaves, I would go back to how you originally taught them, open them up a bit (like slightly open channels) and work the rear crosses with a reward at the end. If she has questions, you can start by placing the reward at the end, then work up to throwing the reward.
Rear crosses on jumps are more about handler line – setting the pressure diagonally so you are running more towards the center of the RC jump.
>> Since I have access to many of your classes (including the puppy series), I wasn’t sure if there was something I could back up to as I feel like there is a training piece missing on our RCs? I set up an exercise from a previous class with two jumps in a line and then left or right jump perpendicular as RC options where you reward in the correct direction regardless. That is still tough for her. Should I back up even further to earlier foundation work? Thanks for any reference or suggestion>>>
You can work that 2 jump game but lay a line on the ground so you are properly running the diagonal – if she is struggling, you are probably late 🙂 She will need to see the RC pressure for jump 2 starting before takeoff for jump 1 (remember the WOO!) so it is possible that she has already made a takeoff decision when you begin the RC cues.
We have more RC work coming up here next week, that should help too!
Nice job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This is going really well! She transferred the concepts really quickly!
On the 2 jump setup where the jumps were in that flat line, you had a clear upper body rotation (serp arm back, eyes on her) to create the serp line – keep that going as well when you add the tunnel to the sequence even when the jumps are angled open by still having your serp arm all the way out and more eye contact as you move forward.
You did this t 1:33 and 2:37 when you released her to serp that first jump, looked great! One some of the reps where she was coming out of the tunnel to the serp jump, your serp arm was closed more forward and it was harder for her to read the line (like at 1:45 and 1:57)
This might have been part of her question at 2:50 and 3:38 when she missed the jump. Good job to angle it a bit more so she could find the line more easily – you can angle it even more because that side is harder for her. And you can add even more connection there too, to help – it is possible that she saw your shoulders too far forward and didn’t know where to be. When you did add the connection back more, she got it very nicely 🙂
She thought the discrimination game was crazy at first LOL!! You can even isolate just the tunnel sends with you sitting – she was really wanting you to run but we want her to go to the tunnel using just the verbal. The getting on the cot made a lot more sense to her, she is probably used to seeing it in this context (you sitting and not running :)) You can also shorten the tunnel so it is easier for her when you are not moving. She was getting the idea by the end! Yay!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
It was great seeing you in class last night (or yesterday morning for you LOL!)
This session looked great – I think putting the toy away TOTALLY helped commitment to the middle wing! The only rep where she had a question on that middle wing (:18) was also the rep with the toy in the hand 🙂 All of the other reps – no toy in hand, no questions about commitment 🙂
Also great job keeping your wings in – that also made a big difference in the quickness of the blinds. You were a tiny bit late on the very first on (I think having her on your right is less comfy for you than having her on your left) but then the rest were great – strong timing and excellent quick connection so she knew exactly where to be – SUPER! Also, you maintained that strong connection on the exits of the middle wing: for example, when you exited the spin at :42 you made a big connection back to her and she accelerated ot the tunnel. And at 1:05 on the exit of the FC on the middle wing, you had low arms and clear connection, so she accelerated to the tunnel there too. YAY!
Definitely keep up this wings-in, great connection, it looks great! Well done :)
Tracy
Good morning!
Very fun to be able to take this to a park!! And to work outdoors with temperatures that are NOT hotter than the surface of the sun. I am feeling jealous 🙂 This session went REALLY well!!!The Go line looked great for both of you! For the Go line, throw sooner or leave the toy placed out ahead so he continues his extension jumping all the way through to jump 3.
Gorgeous wrap on the 2nd rep for Karena and at :38 for Mike, and also the reps after that – you both nailed the deceleration into it. His independent commitment there looked great!
For the rear crosses – you can start that convergence onto the line even sooner – rather than running parallel to 1 & 2 then push into the rear cross line, you can be heading to it as soon as he lands from 1 so he sees it happening before he takes off for 2! That will accomplish 2 things – you will show the RC line sooner and also, you won’t be as far ahead for the rear cross (like at :13). As counterintuitive as it sounds, you want to be a bit further behind on the rear crosses so he passes you sooner – which puts you ahead on the next line. So when running the rear crosses, you will be very close to the wings of the jumps leading up to the RC line, then put the pressure on nice and early.
You went back to the rears at the end of the video and you were both much closer to the line there starting even before jump 2 – and he was much stronger on the rear crosses! Super! That was more of what I meant about getting into the space a bit more so the rear cross info starts earlier.
That will also help with the backside pushes – he should be seeing the physical cue before takeoff for 2 here which means you need to be further ahead and closer to the wings so as he is lifting, you are already pushing across the bar. At :19 you had run parallel to the original go line so when the was taking off for 2, he thought you wanted straight. Ideally in that moment you would already be further across and looking at his eyes. You were definitely earlier at :24 but you can be even earlier.
Part of the timing on the RCs and the backsides is knowing just how early the dogs need the info – turns out they basically need it before they take off for 2 on this 3 jump line. Eek! I used to think the dogs would be fine if we started showing the info as they landed from 2… nope! That was late. I am going to go grab a link about timing from the CAMP class so you can see what I mean about how much earlier we are giving the info (physical and verbal). Ronan definitely has the commitment now so we can start to play with timing – and that will also help as the bars start to get higher (because he will be taking fewer strides and will need info even sooner :))
Great job! I will be right back with the timing info.
Tracy
Good morning!
>> Hmm. I’m still confused. If the DOR and I’m turning left for a front cross you said have my weight on the outside leg and then said left leg. If she’s on my right I’d consider my outside leg the right leg and normally it would be back towards her. The leg closer to the next jump is my left leg. >>
You might be thinking of which leg is close to her after the FC? For me, the outside leg is the leg on the other side of the dog. So for a dog-on-right lead out, the right arm/leg is the dog side leg when I release, and the left arm/leg is the outside leg when I release. When standing still in a front cross position, I will put the weight on the outside leg (left leg here) so that when I start the cross, I drop the right arm and leg back towards the dog (and towards jump 3). On a moving FC, you would plant the outside leg (left leg) for the FC to be able to step back on the right leg for the FC. A common footwork error on FCs is that people step forward with the dog-side leg and then try to push off that leg into the FC… but that widens the turn and delays the info. Deceleration into the FC helps get rid of that, and also replacing most FCs with BCs nowadays has completed solved the footwork puzzle 🙂 Things more way too quickly to have to worry about technical footwork other than “run, change direction, look at the dog, yell the thing” which is why blinds are very effective in some many scenarios. The FCs are reserved for tighter lines where the FC turns your line & feet to the next line sooner than a BC does, and also for places where we are sending into a turn from a harder angle (which *does* involve the dog-side leg stepping to takeoff a bit).
On the zigzag grid:
>> Did I at least set her up right? She just found a straight line and bounced.>>
Yes, that is correct, and ideally she keeps bouncing while the grid gets harder and harder in front of her. She was fine with the grid here, easy peasy, so on the next visit to it you can flatten the angles of the jumps by a couple of inches, moving the outer wings away from each other (eventually it becomes flat like a serpentine but for now, we want it pretty open).
>> Toy is supposed to be placed and I’m walking and throwing>>
Yes, place the toy on all of these so she does not look at you at all – if she is looking at you on the release, wait til she looks forward then release (looking up at you skews the jumping position a bit) and then with the toy on the ground, she is highly likely to look forward when working the jumps. You can walk, that is fine, but be past the 2nd jump before you release for now.
NIce work! Let me know how this grid goes because as it gets harder, she will need to coordinate a lot of side-to-side motion!
Tracy
Hi! I agree, he likes the long fuzzy toys that he can really chomp on the end – plus you can really keep that type of toy moving and he likes chasing it a bit too 🙂
And if you step on his foot, start throwing the toy around and make the moment really happy – do you tend to step on them in handling or during reinforcement? Ideally, we figure out where it is happening so we can eliminate it.
Tracy
Hi!
>> By suitable I mean none although try to get out with others as often as possible.
Yes, definitely keep getting out with others as that can make it into a class-like setting for her 🙂
Yes, the slope and having it be a bit slippery does make it harder! Looking at the videos: On your walk throughs, I think the biggest thing to practice is more of the connections – I think that will make the biggest difference for her especially on the sending. Your handling choices were strong – so after you figure out the handling (it didn’t take you long at all to do that) you can move to doing the handling but looking at her particularly in sections where you tend to look forward. For example – your connection on the distance sections and is great! And really focus on connection to her eyes when you are sending her into a distance section or on the exit of a cross… and do this while you keep moving faster and faster and faster 🙂 You will spend most of your time on this – and as you start moving faster, your verbals will start getting into the normal range (loud LOL!) and that will get them rehearsed too.
On the first run – definitely keep moving down the line to 5 as you send her to 4 – she read the distance work really well! So you don’t need to help her by waiting, you can get right next to the 5 backside – that will set you up for the big connection on the send to 6 – at :13 you lost the connection and then pointed forward, so she ended up behind you in the tunnel. Note the difference at :36 when you had awesome connection and she nailed it! So work that connection in the walk through, so you can get it in the very first run with her.
On the 2nd run – the extra rehearsal in the walk through of you moving will also keep you moving on the first run. You had some moments of standing still on the first run, and she tends to stay on the big lines – so staying in motion will really really help her find the line you are setting. You are getting the sequence correctly in the 2nd or 3rd go-round, so the added practice of the walk through at speed and with connection will really help get it in the first rep.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> Can you tell I’m having a little valley in my confidence in agility? LOL!
You might just be still recovering from camp! You had a great camp, so we now you have the skills and teamwork!
>> figured out a possible solution for the send behind thing. I’ve tried a couple of times to have a wing and then a cone behind my back with my legs right up against it. I’m using my off side hand to send around. VERY slow going. I’ve tried to show a ‘middle’ and then a ‘whoopsie’ (my word for around my back) so he can see the differences.
Very smart! That’s a clever solution to show him the difference!!! Love it!!!
>>So I thought I’d move on to the discrimination. Ummmm, I don’t think my dog knows what a jump or a tunnel command is. sigh… What is the step before sending to the obstacles by name? I couldn’t do it sitting – they thought I was crazy, so I stood.
Turns out, he is in good company, a lot of dogs are saying “what the heck” and also want the handlers to move. So, we can split it more: start by standing still and just have a tunnel OR a jump. That will begin to develop the concept of “take an obstacle by name even if I am not running to it”. Then after standing, do it sitting (with a frosty beverage, it is hot out there! LOL!). Before adding the second obstacle, get the behavior pretty strong with you sitting or standing, not moving, and he is in between your feet (in his line up position) so there is no “help” based on which side he is on 🙂
Then go back to standing and have both obstacles there (but not too close together, maybe 5 or 6 feet apart). And with him between you feet, start the verbals game. And eventually work it back to sitting.
This will NOT take one or two sessions, it is probably something to try a couple of times a week for a couple of weeks, for just a few minutes. It is REALLY hard!
>>Is it easier for the dog if I am closer to the obstacles or further away so they have a little time to think and see both things instead of just heading for the one right in front of them?
Yes, I think it is a little easier if they obstacles are further away, provided they know to move to them without you moving. But also, be sure to not let him move on the first verbal: hold his collar, say the verbal 4 or 5 times, then let him move. That will really help the processing!
>>BTW, I went to a trial this weekend and came away wondering if it’s me or the courses the judge set up, but we couldn’t get any of them done.
Probably not you LOL! I love UKI, but sometimes the course designs just don’t, um, make any sense. Some judges put ALL the challenges in one course, at every level, and that takes away flow, makes them impossible, and is soul-crushing. Ewwww! I have seen this happen at the B/N level (if I am entered and the course is gross, I just run NFC because I don’t want my dogs exposed to grossness) and also at the S/C level – where the best/fastest dogs and handlers can’t get around the courses and the Q rate is exactly zero. Poo.
>>There were a huge number of Beg/Nov people at the trial – like 50 in the class. The two I spoke with crated by me were so disheartened that one said she wasn’t going to run her dog in agility anymore at all, then other said she wasn’t going to do UKI again (first UKI for both of them). I told them these were not typical of all UKI judges, but I’m going to see what you think about that if you don’t mind.>>
That is very sad! UKI has specific rules about how B/N courses should be designed so they run like true B/N courses (I am a newly-minted UKI judge). And we have course reviewers who, in their own judging, break those rules. Ick. Yes, send me the maps – and if it was just you being a slacker, I will let you know LOL!!! (You being a slacker? Unlikely. LOL!)
Tracy
