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Good morning!
>> I ended up going with a diamond circular cutting bit on my drill that I use on my plant pots>>
Well, that was far smarter than kitchen shears! LOL!
Look at him being all silly happy tugging on the friz-leash! Hooray!
After the tunnel with the woosh marker, you might need to show him the friz in your hand then let him see it roll/move so he can chase it – he was engaged on that first rep but not sure what to chase (friz was flat). You did more of this on the 2nd rep and he was a happy dude, knew where to drive to – and it was REALLY good on the last rep when you presented it low and moving.>>I can see him anticipating a throw here. I’m really sloppy with my words because I’m excited about the tug.
Getting excitement about the reinforcement is more important than the words for now – so keep the excitement going and don’t worry as much about the words. I liked his excitement here!!!
>> I do think I can keep building the tug. I may need to attach it to his leash and use a separate frizz with it to throw.>>
Yes and yes! He seemed game for all of it and was figuring out where to look while playing. So a frizleash and a throwing friz. Friz is life!! It can start as chase the friz leash to get the throw, then it can be more and more about the friz leash or friz on a toy. I think one of Hot Sauce’s many friz toys is a friz-bungee so she could tug on it AND I could throw it.
Do you have any UpDog in your area? You can take him to UPDog and do Frizgility. My 2 youngest dogs started in Frizgility before they did “real” agility and it REALLY helped!!!
Great job 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>>EEK! See what happens when I am figuring out something new – I screw up my words. I am trying to use:
With all of the mechanics and words and new games, definitely practice the mechanics and markers before she comes into the session.
>>So, re the ‘yes’ marker – that for me is just telling her she is correct (it’s my verbal ‘click’ when not using a clicker) and will get a reward, not the delivery location or type of reward. It sounds like you are thinking a different verbal ‘click’ that tells her the reward will be delivered somewhere else???>>
Right – but with “yes” being not all that informational other than “we like that!”, we can use a marker to help build the full behavior. If you have a cue for, say, the toy in your other hand – you can use it because it delivers 2 very important pieces of info: – that was correct and reward is over here. So when the toy is on the ground, for example: when she hits your target hand, yo can just say get it and she will get the info that the behavior was correct and where to go for reinforcement. Placement of reinforcement is both the most important and most underrated piece of information for training, so the markers clarify this.
The yes and the click can both build in looking at us or other behaviors in situations where we don’t want the dog looking at us or our hands, so the markers are super useful to prevent that in favor of only getting the behavior we want. You can try to be really really fast with the yes-marker-reward but I don’t think we want to rely on being faster than a border collie haha!
>> Isn’t that going to get complicated with a) trying to remember all the words and b) getting all the words in when doing the work?>>
If we reeharse the mechanics and add them in early, gradually, and consistently – it is not too hard! That is why I am bugging all of the puppy people to be clean with them. It will become habit. And, it is incredibly reinforcing for us humans to see how quickly the dogs pick up the behaviors we want without the struggles we have had with the previous generations of dog – better behavior with less frustration is a big win!
>>A couple of times I restarted her I thought her feet were out of the ladder.
Bear in mind that the restart is a negative punisher so use it very sparingly and almost never – so if she doesn’t enter perfectly, keep going but reward when she adjusts. And then on the next rep, set her up to enter the ladder perfectly.
>>>>I almost never toss a toy back to proof not leaving position. I feel it sets dogs up for too much failure and it is also boring as heck, so I can’t think of a time that I do it. << I thought we had done that or similar to proof start line stays in some earlier courses but maybe I am thinking another course, have done way too many!>>
I might leave a toy on the ground or drop it as I run by a contact, but I haven’t done the throw back and wait til I say to go to the reward in a long time, can’t even remember if/when it might have been? Maybe back in the Say Yes days? LOL!
The ladder looked great! And the marker worked wonders here – you didn’t say yes or click, you just said get it. She never had to look up at you and was able to remain focused on the balanced trot. YAY! Looked great! So keep revisiting this, here and there – she looks lovely here!
Rear cross:
Definitely put this in the basement next, there was not enough room with the xpen there to get her lined up and facing forward.
If she is jumping up at your hands during the ready dance, you can engage without as much hand play near her face – just bent knees and a little bit of chatter because hand play seems to elicit mouthing
Overall, even in the smaller space, she was reading the rear crosses really well (and kudos to you for nice early reward placement AND get it marker.) I think ti wil be even easier in the basement as you mentioned, because she will have more space to move ahead and you will be able to have an easier time getting across behind her.On the 2nd video – your ready dance had less hands near her face so she was less mouthy – and you can actually use a ready word because it is a super useful word for engagement later on inlife, when you don’t have food or toys.
She did well here too! She is not quite as good at turning to her left as she is at turning to her right, but you got the rear cross in earlier on that last rep with a really great reward toss, so she got it. Yay!! I think this will all be easy in the basement.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He did really well here!!! The sit will be easy for him so we can use it as a platform for planning the session and for mechanics. Some ideas for you:
– if the cheese is sticky, it is probably getting a little melty in your hands. So, you can have one or two in your hands and the rest in a bowl – that also allows you to have clearer resets (see below)– about the clicker…my clicker training background is from the Bob Bailey and marine animal trainers, where the click is a marker that predicts reinforcement is coming immediately. If you click and don’t immediately follow it with reinforcement, the dog will first get confused and then will just ignore the clicker – neither of which we want. You were clicking for the sit, but not actually reinforcing til sometime after that, so first he got confused (:36 an :52) then he just started ignoring it in favor of focusing on the food. I know there are people out there who click and delay reinforcement or click and don’t deliver rienforcement – but I think that dulls the impact of the clicker so I try to get reinforcement in as immediately as possible in any situation. If the reinforcement is delayed, I will use a different marker.
We ideally want the clicker to predict reinforcement coming as instantly as possible, and because the goal here was more duration, you can change the timing of the click to mark the end of the duration that immediately precedes the cookie toss. So if you are going to want to reinforce him for holding the sit while you take 3 steps away, do it like this:
cue the sit, take the 3 steps, click, mark and toss the treat. You will be able to quickly fade the clicker too! That willl help keep the clicker as a sharp tool for training while precenting any confusion about when reinforcement is coming.And he was having trouble finding the cookies sometimes or being ready for the sit – I think you can slow down the process to increase success, no need to instantly cue the next sit. So, call him to you, get engagement, cue a sit – then after whatever pre-determined duration you want, click and toss the treat back to him so he can clearly see it (bounce it off his feet, if needed :)). Then wait for him to get it (and if he can’t find it, go show it to him). Then – call him to you, engage, cue the sit, and so on. You were cuing the sit as soon as you thought he had the cookie and that can make things sloppy in terms of where he sits/lines up, or if he can get the treat and respond. So take your time! That also allows you to have the cookie ready in your hand (so you don’t have to get it out or take a small piece of it off) and it also allows you to get colder, non-sticky cookies from a bowl in between reps, making them easier to throw 🙂
Let me know what you think! His stay looks good so we can definitely look at mechanics – it is the mechanics of training that are so hard but so helpful 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>> Yeah, I wondered about that and it’s something that happens more frequently than I would like….me cueing rear when I don’t mean to that is!
I think people are getting RCs on those types of intended wraps because of the step-to-takeoff part of the wrap cues. When I was ding more of that step to takeoff and using dog-side arm to cue the wrap, I certainly would get accidental RCs too. The dog side arm slows rotation and causes the shoulders to face the RC landing spot. And the step to takeoff can put RC pressure on the line. The two together look like a RC cue.
So, I use different cues now and no longer get those accidental RCs – when cuing the wrap, I decelerate facing the wrap wing then rotate so the new hand (outside hand) is what is cuing the wrap towards me.
The RC in that situation would be dog side arm and pressure towards the RC wing.>>>but it does seem that judges are getting pretty good at putting in at least one section in every course where either you have to do it with a rear or a rear is definitely a better way to do it so I’ve done a lot more rear cross work with Sly than any previous dog….
SO true about the the judges setting courses where the RC is either the best or only option.
>>Handler Mechanics for Fronts and Rears…..I’ll have to think of a fun name for it
Brilliant! I love it! And people need it!
>>As far as the startline procedure. Contraband looked awesome!! That boy is going to have some speed!!!!
Thanks he was a very good boy – lots of new things in that run and he was fine. His speed is already nuts – it looks effortless and calm til you put a timer on it. In flyball yesterday, he looked slow and effortless but outran the very fast Border Collie in the next lane the same way Secretariat outran the field in the Belmont all those years ago. Dear god, I need new running shoes LOL!!!!
>>and you said something about tugging being the only reinforcer available. I think I need to play around with breaking down the pieces of our setup even more.
It was probably something in the context of the only primary reinforcement available in the ring (if tugging is indeed primary – but it is closer to primary for a lot of dogs than, say, a tunnel is). And sadly, organizations don’t allow food in the ring for training 🙁 so the leash tugging is our best bet (except for UKI where you can bring a toy in the ring for ANY run – you might note on Contraband’s video that I had a toy tied to his leash – it was there on his (and Hot Sauce’s) NFC runs and also on their “for real” runs – what a GREAT rule!!!!
>>Remote reinforcement for giving up the “tug” leash. I pretty much always ask for a setup between my legs as soon as I get the leash back and one of the things I’ve noticed is that he starts to be less “happy” about giving it up.
It is possible that having to ‘work’ (the setup) accidentally ‘punishes’ (negative punishment) the out of the leash. I have certainly seen that happen with dogs before! So yes, great idea to incorporate remote reinforcement for that. And you can also mix in a cue to grab the leash again, like a little loop: tug, out, setup, tug, out, setup, etc. And that can be done while waiting on line in the ring!
>>What I was doing was then doing a bit of Yours, Tug, Mine, Yours, Tug, Mine…. but I think I want to try some Tug, Mine….Let’s go to a remote reinforcer. What do you think?
Perfect, yes! And in the Yours-Mine, add the setup sometimes too.
>>And at least so far he’s not “all business” until I actually start the leadout. When we are moving into the ring is the point where he is most distracted, which is why I was wanting to develop a strong tug with his leash.
I also think that each member of the team develops a trial “shtick” meaning we all have our quirks as little stress relievers before we go into the ring. This is true for humans and dogs LOL!!! I have a weird thing where I check all my pockets (there is nothing in my pockets LOL!). And each of my dogs has a weird thing that helps them prep for the run. Back when Exie was still running, he would sniff on the way to the line and sometimes roll on his back (if it was turf, especially). And with Voodoo, he has to leap in the air and bark at me when he enters the ring. Just once. LOL! But I learned to let them have their moment of shtick because they were settling themselves in for a great run. By trying to de-shtick them, they were not as settled or ready. Strange, I know! So look for Sly developing his own shtick and how the leash play comes into that.
>>It took a little while but we were able to move 60 or 70′ without losing focus once.
That is great, but also be sure to give him time to relax his focus, look around, etc – so he does not have to maintain focus for all that time and then go into the run. It is all part of shtick development LOL! (Let me know if you have not heard the word shtick before, it is definitely not a scientific term LOL! )
Keep me posted about the weekend trial! Have fun! And fingers crossed for NO SNOW til after the trial 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
This is a great update! Having a great time in the agility ring is beneficial on all levels! It creates a really positive response to the environment overall and that helps with teeter work as well as times when there are more people and dogs!
>> I thought perhaps this would be a good time to try a little desensitization. So the instructor brought out one of her dogs. Keiko had never me this boy before and my, my, he captivated her. A high energy BC/AC cross, this dog is gung-ho in agility – fast and loud. Keiko couldn’t even pay attention to me while he was around, much less focus when he was on the teeter. Ah, well… I’m going to do some short private sessions with the instructor moving the seesaw just a bit while Keiko and I do the find it game and see how things go. I’d rather start slow and build than have to back-track. I’ll let you know how it goes.>>
I think working around other dogs is great! It sounds like the instructors dog is a dog to be worked with at the end stages, pre-trial games LOL! It was too much and Keiko let us know LOL!!
The flyball people are masters of introducing distractions of other dogs and people (because there are such massive distractions in flyball that need to be fully ignored and they cannot be dialed back in competition).
For example, we start with ‘boring’ dogs doing nothing much at all. My Papillon is an example of a ‘boring’ dog (nothing personal, Nacho haha!) because he is small and quiet when he is working. The next level is my Hot Sauce pup, who is fast but quiet when she works, but can also bark on cue if we need to add controlled noise. Then we build very slowly to more exciting dogs that are faster and noisier. So my Contraband started his work with a quiet slower BC in the other lane, and has now moved up to a screaming, super fast, BC/staffy cross running at the same time.
I think Keiko would benefit from this as well – who do you know who has dogs that are not as fast and definitely quiet? That is where you can start 🙂 then build up to maybe a Sheltie sized dog that will make some noise, but is not intense in terms of staring or size. Then you can build back up to a fast and loud dog LOL!!And I like the idea of private sessions to add a little teeter movement, or maybe a minute before or after class where you can do it? You don’t really want to spend tons of time on it because too much repetition can also put her over threshold – so even if it is appears to be going well, you would stop after a minute or two and be done, so she doesn’t mentally tire and then get worried.
Let me know what you think. Keep me posted!
TracyGood morning! This was a good session, he is really loving that tunnel now 🙂
>> When I am holding him and ready to say ‘Tunnel!’, should I be waiting until he’s pretty much completely focused and turned towards it? Ronin obviously now understands the value of the MM and it’s a distraction, which is good practice, but not sure how much to test that vs. making more sure he’s focused and ready before giving the command to do the tunnel. I know, not really a black and white situation, but curious about your thoughts.>>
This is an excellent question!!! 2 answers for you:
– He does not have to be looking at the tunnel in order for you to start the cue. Hold his collar, say tunnel a few times (we all say it more than once on course anyway LOL!) and then let go. Some dogs don’t focus forward on the line or task at this age, yet they are still highly successful. An example of that is my border whippet, Contraband – he would never focus forward, he would always look at me. And yet, when I gave the cue and let go, he always went and did the task. So I stopped waiting for him to focus ahead, because he was Wildly successful without it. Interestingly, now that he is 2 years old, his focuses forward in flyball but not on the agility start line. And it is fine – because he is simply never wrong. So I have chilled out about it (very hard for me because I am a founding member of Team No Chill. Ha!)Ronin is not a sighthound, he is a terrier 🙂 But He is similar in that he seems very happy to get it right even without looking at it first LOL! So, don’t worry to much about it.
— you are correct in that the MM is a fabulous distraction – it helps fold in all of the self-control we want! So, if you are holding him and saying tunneltunneltunnel and he is pulling towards the MM and not the tunnel – if you think he is really guaranteed a failure – then just keep saying the verbal til he stops pulling towards the MM and let go, see what happens. If he fails, no worries, start over closer to the tunnel entry.
Speaking of you holding him – that is the only part of the session that I have a suggestion for: the tunnel now has good value (plus it has a lot of motion involved) and the MM is high value now too… and coming to your hand for a collar grab? Not nearly as fun! So, we fight fire with fire… or, maybe I should say, cookies with cookies! You were empty-handing him when he got back to you and trying to grab for his collar, so he was scooting away and sometimes grabbing the tunnel. So, have cookies in your hand: after he gets the MM treat, call him back to you for a really good cookie (show him the cookie if you need to, we can jump start the reset that way), feed the cookie, grab the collar, feed another cookie… then do the tunnel send to the MM.
This will help in 2 ways: it makes for a more efficient session because there is a balance of value: coming to you to line up is valuable, going to the tunnel is valuable. Handler focus and line focus getting trained all in one session.
And, it will help him love the collar grab and line up which is very useful for start lines and such 🙂Towards the end you had him on the inside with the threadle foundation, and he was perfect of course 🙂 So now we need to attach a verbal to it: have you decided on a tunnel threadle verbal? If so, you can use it now when you are working on the threadle side 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyWow! Sounds like she had a lightbulb moment and now she totally has it. YAY!! She is brilliant 🙂 Great job showing her what you wanted!!!!!!!
T
Good morning!
You have done a great job getting the MM to be very happy-making, he seemed to be very excited to train for it! When I was using the MM with the dogs that were not really food-drive to begin with (whippet mixes are not big eaters), I mixed in some freeze dried tripe and tiny crumbles of stinky treats. The tripe didn’t make it through the MM dispenser, but the smell got attached to the kibble and it was a big thumbs up from the dogs 🙂
The other stinky thing I did for the MM was I left my kibble in the bag of the other treats, then pulled it out to put in the MM – very stinky but higher value for sure.Great job with your tunnel intro here!!!! Was this the first or one of the first times he has done it? Very nice! Great job setting him up for success, both with the tunnel and the MM (2 relatively new things for him). Super!!!
As soon as you think he will reliably run through it from the angle you had him on here (relatively straight) you can totally add the verbal. You might need to be softer with the word at first so he doesn’t look up at you, but I might be wrong about that and you can be louder – he will let you know and you can adjust accordingly.
Then, I bet within that same session or the one after it, you will be able to have the verbal and the angles of entry. Fun!And while that is going on, have you decided on your tunnel threadle verbal (what do you use for the other dogs?) Based on how quickly he picks things up, you will need to have that ready soon too because we will be able to add it soon as well.
Great job here!!! Keep me posted!!!
TracyGood morning!
Thanks for telling me about the video – the sound is WAY off! UGH! I am simultaneously banging my head on the wall and shaking my fist at YouTube. Sigh. I will get in there and fix it, or re-film it if I can’t get it fixed because yes, the timing of the click is kind of important. Eek!!!!!! But yes – try to click for back feet.
Also yes – if you don’t have a box, you can totally use a mat. I have used large bath mats and also chunks of yoga mats that are big enough that it is relatively easy for the pups to trot through with all 4 feet. I will take a look for more video, I am sure I have some of Contraband doing it, somewhere.
The retrieve looks awesome!!! Well done! And even in the short time that I have known her here on video, her play behaviors are really blossoming! I know you mentioned that she didn’t play with you & toys as much as you wanted when we got started – but looking at recent videos, I would not have guessed that if you have not told me. That is exciting!!!
I think you were really quiet during this video for the retrieve elements (probably by design, because it is a relatively new behavior, as compared to the strike). When you think you can consistently get this behavior, go ahead and add words, even if they are informal. For example, my informal retrieve cue for toys is “bring the ting” haha! And it works really nicely for agility and flyball. Obedience would need a more formal cue because it is a more specific behavior. But no rush to add the cues – the context is the cue for now and she is doing beautifully!!!
Great job 🙂 And I will get to work fixing that video, hopefully today 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>Jump threaded (close) jump threaded wrap (maybe I need to see them). Is there a reason to not use “in” for both (coming from a person that obviously doesn’t remember dog side leg, let alone which of 100 verbals to use 😜)?The reason different verbals are needed are because they are completely different behaviors and we cannot rely on our handling to always be right there to show him. It would be like using sit to mean both sit AND down – something is bound to go wrong with that.
And practice, practice, practice will make the verbals seem like second nature 🙂
THi!
>>Should I shelf that for a while and work only this? He should have a fair understanding of the command>>Do you mean the motion override game versus the mat work here? You can do both – one is on the flat, the other is with the mat, so they won’t interfere with each other.
>>I find myself saying “go weave” or “get your weaves” as well as just “weave.” Do I need to try and break those habits on course or will using “Weave” during training translate and override my bad habits?>>
Good question! I vote for breaking the habit, especially because Go and Get are also the beginning of other cues that are not related to weaves. So, just use “weaves” and no other chatter unless you need a directional like “get out” before it. Get your weaves doesn’t really have specific info.
T
Hi! Sounds like a long day but you got really good work in!!!
On the prop practice:
He is showing really great value for his prop, so we can add some things:
For the sends:
– when tossing treats, be sure that he is engaged and sees you toss them, and more importantly: use a marker like ‘get it’ every time. He didn’t always see the treats and you were not saying anything, so it got a little muddy. I don’t want him to start scanning the floor for treats, so the engagement and marker become really important.– speaking of engagement… engage before each send. It is not a loop of send-cookie-send- cookie. It is more of: engage, send, reward. Engage, send, reward. The engagement prepares him for what is coming and also helps you get the mechanics ready.
At this stage, the distance is perfect, so now you can add countermotion! Get closer to it to start and move to the countermotion games 🙂
The parallel path also looks good. The errors were when he was not ready because you moved away quickly while he was finding the treat, so he just followed you. Let him find it and chew it before you move up the line again.
The handling game also looked good (and Suzie gave perfect feedback and advice!). With this, you definitely want to get him excited with the ball. And use the get it for the cookie toss. And don’t worry if he is tight to you or not – that is accomplished with you decelerating sooner. He did great here! And if his stays are coming along nicely, you can use those rather than cookie tosses to start 🙂
Nice work!
Tracy
