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Hi! It worked, thanks!
Looking at the session setup here, at the beginning you were doing:
left – get it (placed on the line) – good boy – hand (to reset, but sometimes with the noise) – left – get it
You can get it a little smoother by eliminating the ‘good boy’ between the get it and the hand markers – he didn’t know what to do in that moment 🙂 So after he eats the ‘get it’ treat, you can go directly to hand. It was hard to tell if you were feeding on all of the ‘hand’ markers or just resetting him to send again – and he was looking at you a lot in that transition, so he was not totally clear either. So you can feed after the hand reset, take a breath, then clearly cue the left. It can be ‘loopy’ but you don’t have to go fast 🙂
After that, there was a lot incorporated into the session (wraps on one jump, wraps on 2 jumps, backsides, different handling, etc) without planning in between – so things got ‘looser’ in terms of mechanics, verbals, etc
>> I also need to have a clearer idea on what handling I want to do so that I can get it done efficiently and use the correct bloody verbal.>>
Yes, that is all the planning 🙂 You were saying hand but not really moving, it was more of a stopped hand delivery. So plan the sessions more – choose the behavior you want, plan how you will cue it, which marker and placement and type of reinforcement. So if you want to work on driving out of the backside FC, you can decide where you want to stand, how to send, what verbal, when to move. Then which marker & type of reinforcement. Then you can do a couple. Then assess – if you like it and want to do something else, plan the something else, giving the dogs a break so that when they come back, you can be efficient and clear rather than working it out on the fly 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
The pop up laundry basket is perfect – easy to pack and you can also use it for laundry LOL!!!T
Hi!
If you feel that it will take too long to get tugging on the leash, you can use it differently: Get him to put his head through the leash loop or harness so you can leash him up – then go to the food outside the ring. I do that with my dogs that want to work for food so the leash takes on value, maing the end of the run much easier 🙂
TracyGood morning! He did really well here!!
A couple of ideas for you, small details to make things even sooner:
Right at the beginning, when you were putting the stuff down on the chair and walk away, he tried to grab it 🙂 You can set it on something higher so it is less easy to grab for now – and reward him for resisting temptation and walking away from it (have a cookie hidden in your pocket for that). He was good about ignoring it afterwards, but that initial moment will help him bring self-control.
He was excellent about driving to the toy at the end of the line with your get it! Now… mix in turning away from the toy because I think he might have gone to it based on how visible it was: so sometimes you say “get it” and he can grab it and sometimes you keep handling and he should come with you and not get the toy. I have demos of that sprinkled in throughout the videos, because we don’t want the dogs to go to the toy (or leash) just because they see it 🙂 To help set him up for success, don’t have the toy on the ground – put it on the chair on that line or up high on something so he might be tempted but cannot actually grab it or run around with it 🙂 You can use your remote reinforcement marker when you do want him to have it. Start this on one jump – it might be challenging 🙂
He had a little trouble giving the toy back – I love his tugging but things are easier if he gives it back faster :)To get the toy back, trade for a treat (from the red chair is perfect) very consistently so you can have more efficient sessions (lure this at first if needed – say the out then show a cookie but not at the same time – so out predicts cookie then we move it further away)
He did a great job with the catch for the stays in front of the jump! You can now add in turning yourself to the direction you want to go, gradually, so he lets you set up the lead out you want while still holding the stay – plan it based off of what your ideal position would be on a lead out. I like to be facing the way I need to run before I release the dog (so I can stay ahead for at least one obstacle LOL!)
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! I am so glad you are enjoying it!!!
I agree – it was really hard to train the dogs if we couldn’t have a toy or treat in our hand or moving… and I admit that I didn’t always have specific answers other than “train self-control” LOL!!!! So now I think we are on the road to very specific answers, plus we are not training it with our youngsters to set the conditioning we want. That has really reduced frustration in training, and increased understanding and drive. Fun! I am sure we will continue to fine tune this stuff – the dogs and handlers in this class are teaching me a LOT!Have fun 🙂
TracyGood morning!
The video is marked private, can you reset to unlisted so I can give you more ideas 🙂
>>. I also need to have a clearer idea on what handling I want to do so that I can get it done efficiently and use the correct bloody verbal.
Yes – planning 🙂 So much planning LOL!!!
>>You said in your video demo, that you use this to reward a fast drivey and tight wrap. What would you do if the dog did not turn as tight as you wanted or wasn’t quite as drivey as you had hoped?
Reward anyway 🙂 If the dog is turning, and the dog likes the reinforcement you are presenting, this reinforcement procedure is what will build the speed and drive. Consistent, predictable, valuable reinforcement will get the speed and drive. If the dog is not as tight or fast as you like and you withhold reinforcement – then you are actually punishing the dog (negative punishment) so that gets the dog to be slower or lose drive. This is especially true if there is handling involved, where we need to be very timely in order to get the turn correct – if the dog is incorrect due to handling, and we don’t reinforce, then the dog is going to get confused or frustrated.
>>Also, I tried to always give the treat when he followed the hand, but do you give another when they line up for the next even if you try to keep it a continuous loop? Hope that makes sense.>>
I probably need to see the video to give a good answer here, but when using a treat – I use the shhhhh marker, use the hand to perhaps line up for the next rep, then deliver the treat. It happens as one continuous motion after the shhhh marker, so I don’t use a 2nd marker before delivering the treat. If I need to line the dog up for hte next rep differently, I would use another reward or different marker but it depends on the loop.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Some ideas for you:
>>Yes. She ran to her lotus ball, ate the treats, and then started sniffing. I called her, she kept sniffing, I went up to her clapping and happy, kept sniffing, so I got out a higher value treat and stuck it in front of her face and she finally started nibbling and followed me.
Interesting! So either something was REALLY distracting there or she just wasn’t her normal self. Was her run pretty successful? It sounds like it was all normal and good, then she just couldn’t ignore the smells for whatever reason.
>> I would not run away to hide because I think that would elevate stress. Besides, there is no place in the room to hide, I would have to exit out a door. Not something I want to do when I’m trying to get her happy and connected.
I agree – we don’t want to add stress by having you disappear.
>>Now she runs short sequences (5-10 obstacles) and runs for her lotus. Perhaps I need to get the treats back on me at the end of a run, and nibble-food her to the start-line again?
Has she been running courses with the emphasis on remote reinforcement, meaning nothing on you, and the lotus ball outside the ring at the end? It might be unrelated, but it is also good to still have food in the ring to reinforce the ‘stuff’ on course 🙂 You can slather reinforcement everywhere 🙂
>>Interesting question. I wish I had a video. To the best of my recollection, she basically looked at the toy (what, no food?) and checked out then. She has responded positively to toys and stayed connected in the past, but not consistently.
Sounds like perhaps the toys just didn’t stand a chance to whatever the distraction was that night 🙂
>>When I brought out the super nibble treat and then a loaded lotus, she was able to refocus and work again.
Perfect!
>>We did a short (maybe 8 tossed find-its) at the beginning of class, then half-way through class (it’s an hour class with 3, sometimes 4 dogs) we did another short session like the first one.
Nice, short sessions – so it is unlikely she would be mentally depleted. It is starting to sound like some type of really challenging distraction instead.
>>When we started this class, I only used food. When she got sniffy, the instructor suggested I try toys, so I’ve been alternating and have both treats and toys (and a variety of each) with me each evening. Am I giving her too many choices/variety?
I don’t think there were too many choices, I think it is more of a hierarchy issue: normally, the treats/toys you had were fine and dandy! But there was some sort of invisible distraction that was top of her hierarchy list: Crazy smell? Twisted toe? Noise she heard but you couldn’t? We won’t know – all of those can produce sniffing and can also cause her to not want the toy (lower value in the face of whatever the distraction was).
And sometimes the dogs just are having an ‘off’ night, we don’t really know why, and then it is fine the next time you go back there.
>> I do think she associates agility class with food. At home, I vary treats and toys, though I probably use more treats than toys. In class, I prefer to use treats and the lotus. It’s easier on my body (I can attest to the saying that aging is really not for sissies).
That is perfectly fine! I know of many, many champion agility dogs who are fast and happy – and work ONLY for food in training and trials. She has a good value for toys at home and I think you will be able to get those into classes and trials, but you can also make those new environments incredibly valuable with food 🙂 The lotus ball is a terrific tool because it is both a ball to chase AND a food delivery 🙂 She might like a treat hugger too!
>>Okay, so what do you suggest for Saturday? It will be a small group (4-5 dogs) for 2 hours and we’ll work on sequences that focus on some specific handling skills. The instructor will let me make up sequences if I want so I can stack the difficulty level in Keiko’s favor and make it just fun and games if that’s what I want. She’s been very supportive this way.>>
Sounds like you have a great instructor! Love it! Bring 2 or 3 different levels of food value: all of which are valuable, nothing boring haha! But there should be at least one that is mind-blowingly delicious 🙂 Start with the lower value food rewards to see where her focus is and what the distractions are – short, fun sequences, rewards in the ring, lotus ball. If she struggles, switch to the mind-blowing food rewards. If she doesn’t struggle, have fun and mix in the mind-blowing rewards towards the end or on anything more complicated.
And try to video 🙂
Keep me posted!Tracy
Good morning!
Rear crosses are pretty hard, which is why we are starting them so young (and away from a jump :)) It takes some experimenting to sort out what the dog needs to see – I am glad you were playing with different options and also glad you were rewarding all the things 🙂 Rewarding here was 1000% the correct thing to do because he was reading you correctly 🙂 The adjustment to make here is to cross his line sooner, so he sees you crossing behind him on the rear cross line sooner – ideally you are on the RC line behind his tail or already across it, before he arrives at the prop so he can make the lead change to the new direction. You might need to start him further away from the prop, so you have more time to do this 🙂
And because you are crossing sooner, keep moving forward to help support commitment to his boot 🙂 And you can click for turning the correct direction (no worries is the boot hit is not as perfect – right now the turn can take priority as long as he still goes towards/over the boot, as supported by your line).Since this is entirely a handling exercise, I figure that visuals might help 🙂
I got screenshots of what he was seeing when you were not crossing soon enough: your feet were good but your line/position was still on the ‘turn towards me’ line and not on the rear cross line. And I grabbed some screenshots of how early I cut across the line to get my pup to do the rear cross (I am just about fully on the new side while she is still 6 inches or so from the prop). The demo dog here is a lot smaller and she was slower too, so you can start him further back because he is bigger and faster (so makes decisions sooner :))Here is a link to the 5 visuals, because it is too big for the forum here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15okRw_CQT2LoflkhztgBwQ_h-g8Oq0cMYVo6kHl0CRg/edit?usp=sharingLet me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>. I’m gonna want her to wrap with her head down…..not heel with her head up….there’s a difference!
That is correct! We do have more games coming where we work specifically on the pups’ head positions, but it is always good to get low heads from the start.
I think your prop game is going swimmingly well! She is moving off of you to hit it, which I like!! And has a very clear accurate ‘smack’ with her feet. She moves to it faster from your right side than from your left side – could be more value for sticking with you on your left, could be that she is a lefty not a righty so starting on your right is easier for her. I keep track of this stuff but I don’t obsess on it too much (yet haha)
One thing I notice here (and this mught be why you don’t lvoe it yet) is that there is a big speed differential: she leaves you slowly and comes back FAST. You are wise to stick closer to it for now. This is normal and we can start shifting that – it is a value question from the pups. Here are some suggestions:
– you are pretty darned exciting with the toy, which might be why she wants to stay near you and why the prop might not be as exciting to drive to when the toy is with you. So when you play this, you can send to the prop and sometimes mark with a “get it’ and throw the toy past it (if she likes that :)) and sometimes mark with your word that means “come here to me and get the toy” (I use “bite” for that). That can help slather the value equally to and from the prop
– you can also do the game with treats only, same as above with the toy – sometimes the treats are tossed past the prop, sometimes she comes back to your hand.
For now, do more reinforcement out past the prop and less back at you – you can add more distance and when she goes to hit the prop, toss the treat past it from wherever you are. That might shift where she goes out fast and doesn’t want to come back LOL! So if that happens, we shift the reinforcement back to your hand.
Separately from the prop – build up the wing wrap foundation games because the turn and burn will also build the speed and drive away from you (driving back to you is the easy part on that one). The prop sends and the wing wrap foundations “marry” in the turn and burn games, so you don’t need to wait til the prop sends are perfect to get the wing wraps going.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>When we do the collection sandwich to the go are you actually feeding the pivot? Or, just expecting the turn and the reward is after the go?>>
It will depend on the value of the reinforcement and activity, specific to the dog 🙂 On the sandwich, you *can* totally feed the pivot if you feel that she does not want to be tight to you. I do recommend feeding the pivot (at least the arrival to your hand) for now, because the game that builds on it that we added on Tuesday will have some good distractions out ahead – so we can build in as much value as possible for now, before we introduce the distraction out ahead 🙂
If you find that Sprite has more trouble driving ahead of you to the reinforcement for the ‘go’ element, you can stop feeding the pivot as you shift the value back to the go section.
>> If I out a bowl out is it preloaded? Doubtful I could toss accurately in the bowl.
It depends on value of the bowl and handler mechanics – if she will drive ahead to an empty bowl because it is really valuable, then there is less pressure on you to have to toss early or accurately because you can get closer to it before tossing the treat 🙂 You can also pre-load the bowl as it is a GREAT element of self-control – in this week’s handling combos games, I pre-loaded the target plate with a stick of string cheese that was a little open, so the dog could lick it but was not going to swallow it whole (this depends on the dog, though, because I do think some dogs would swallow it whole, while others would see no value in it).
You can also skip the bowl entirely and use a lotus ball or treat hugger to throw. Those are great because they are easy to throw and are perfect for food delivery when we want to use food.
Strike a pose looks great! She is picking up the pattern of the game (which is exactly what we want :)) and was really strong about hitting the target hand before heading to the reinforcement.
Small suggestions for you: You can lean your target hand lower down so she doesn’t have to pop up to touch it at all (you were lower when it was in your left hand, so you can bring your right hand down a little lower too)
She was good with the food reward, that really set her up into the right body line for what the behavior will ultimately be. But she was great with the strike to the toy!! I believe that toys are (were?) lower value so I love how she drove to it and I also love how you made it active by backing up and she got happy and silly with it after she got to it. The backing up a little after the strike is also a nice release of the pressure from driving into our bodies that is part of the serp & threadle positions. Click/treat to you!
She was hitting the target hand super nicely in your left, maybe not as well in your right but both were solid enough for our purposes and you were good with your criteria maintenance 🙂 It is interesting to note the difference in the strength of her hit because it indicates which direction/side she is more comfortable on – good to know in case she has questions in the future.
Since this went well, the next step is to get the reinforcement on the ground – you can put it on the ground with your feet pointing to it, a step or two away, so she hits the target hand then can slide over to the reward (using your marker). I suggest starting this with an empty bowl (you can drop the treat in from above) until she is really happy with it. Then you can go to the toy – but I don’t want to put a toy in the picture in case she might want to dive on the toy and skip the hand LOL!! We don’t want her to skip the hand and dive on the toy for the purposes of training the skill but also because I don’t want to tell her she is wrong for showing passion for the toy because you are building her love for toys… so for now we avoid any possibility of that LOL! The behavior can be trained easily with food, and then it will be easy to add the toy in first by dangling it and then putting it on the ground. Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
I am glad Gemma got a turn – her excitement was a reflection of how fun you were and how much fun Sprite seemed to have with the toy! Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He is getting it! I am doing a little happy dance here! Your timing was MUCH better and I could see the steam coming out of his ears 🙂 He was being a good boy 🙂 He had a big lightbulb moment at :49, and then he did really well on the other side too! Hooray!A couple of ideas for you as you keep moving forward with this game (pun intended haha):
The prop hit is not the top priority now – that means 2 things:
– you can reward him for turning the correct direction, even if the hit is not perfect. As long as he keeps moving through/over it, you can still reinforce him (like at :33)
– you can delay the timing of your “yes” marker until he turns the correct direction (whether he gets it right away, or turns the wrong way the corrects himself, both can be rewarded). Your “yes” marker is really powerful and you were very precise with the marker for hitting the prop. So now we can help change his perception by having you “yes” him when he turns to the new side (as long as he is heading to/near/over the prop, the hit does not have to be perfect :))One other suggestion because he was thinking really hard about it (which is great!):
Next session, only work one side, like dog-on-right: mix going straight and rear crosses. Then do dog-on-left in a separate session, later on. That way he only has to process 2 things (going straight on your right, or rear crossing on that side) rather than 4 things (2 sides straight, 2 sides rear crosses). And that will help maintain the value for the straight!Great job here, he is really getting the idea!
Tracy
Good morning!
Everything is going really well here!!!Toy races video – he is driving straight really nicely (the little bit of bending out on the line you see was because you were moving towards him rather than running straight, like on the 2nd rep). By using the lead out, you are getting the drive on the line to the toy so now we can make things even more about driving ahead so he leaves you in the dust 🙂 The options for that are either to hold his collar and throw the toy, so there is no lead out at all, thn race him. I think you will lose that race LOL! so if he might not bring the toy back, have the toy on a long line so you can snag it 🙂
Or, you can use a stay by do a much short one so he can zip past you.
Do continue to mix in longer stays, but whn you have a massive lead out – set yourself up to win that toy 🙂 Don’t be too polite and let him win LOL!!! If you get there first and get silly and tease him a little with it, he will dig in more on the next rep and drive ahead more. I think you could have won on the last rep, so you can set yourself up to cheat (in the form of being further ahead) even more so you have a clear victory 🙂 Don’t win too often, just every now and then so he doesn’t sit back and cruise through it – we want the digging in on each rep 🙂Wing wraps –
Is that one of those filing cabinets and your cookie bowl is on top? Brilliant choice!!!! And great job stepping in a little to help him get started then adding in distance back in, a tiny bit at a time. Because he is getting to be full-sized now, you can move your bowls back more (behind your ankles, where the grass meets the walkway here) si he has more room to turn around to offer the next rep.He did a brilliant job of offering (and self-correcting when he almost chose the gap, good boy!!!!) so I think the value and understanding is getting really strong. That means you can now move to the turn and burn game 🙂 Fun!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> but for reasons still unknown to me these barrels became crack to her after a couple of sessions with them in max pup 1>
My guess is they have been paired with running and food/toys, so the barrels are now basically conditioned reinforcement.
T
Hi!
Looks like he really liked tugging on his leash! And it also looks like he was good about waiting for his marker to tug on it. YAY! So you can totally keep building it up as a reward and use it as part of the remote reinforcement games.>> I used a rubber ball to cover the metal part and it seems to work reasonably well.
That was particularly brilliant and I am going to get up in a minute and go attach a ball to my leash!!!! I owe you one – GREAT IDEA!!!!
>> I then switched over to tossing the leash and using the verbal cue “Get it”. When Cowboy realized there was a ball at the end of the leash, all bets were off and it turned into a ball retrieval thing!>>
Right, the ball is higher value for sure. But… it was still a valuable toy and not just a leash! WIth that in mind:
>>I am wondering if I cut a hole on the other side of the ball and slide the leash through if that would be legal for an AKC agility trial.>>
I would say that while it might be 100% legal for UKI (I will ask a judge this weekend!) that is is probably 1000% NOT legal for AKC LOL! So keep working with the ball-free leash, because that is legal in AKC.
Great job!!!
TracyHi there!
This was a very fun couple of sessions to watch – he really figured it out nicely!!!!>>While we realized that we had our feet wrong and I have a bending over issue>>
You got your feet looking good and I think the bending over to get the target as nose level as possible was great – the lower, the better… but I do know that it is really awkward to stand still like that! It gets easier when we get the handler moving and fade the target.
I loved his first glorious fail LOL! And it highlighted what I think was the hardest part of the game for him, and the biggest victory by the end of the session: the self-control element of it. He had some trouble ignoring the reinforcement in the other hand at first, especially when the target was on your left hand (for both of you). He had an easier time when the target was in your right hand, perhaps because there is more value working on that side or perhaps because he finds turning to his righ a little easier at the moment.
Either way, though, he is clearly sorting out the self-control element because he was really quite perfect by the end! The lower target hand also helps (like at 1:07) because it is very salient AND it helps him to do fewer joyous leaps for it LOL!For upcoming sessions of this, you can gradually introduce the reinforcement being more obvious in the reward hand – starting with a boring low value treat in the reward hand and having it somewhat visible, to a couple of good treats with the hand pretty visible, to a boring toy (if there is such a thing?) squished up in your hand, to a dangling toy… to eventually the toy on the ground while he hits the target in the serp/threadle hand. We have plenty of time for this, so keep an eye on the high rate of success just like you did here nd he will continue to have success 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
