Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
>>Reward procedures are very new for me so I am still sorting out the different scenarios. So far, I think this approach to training is fantastic!
Believe me, we are ALL still sorting out the different scenarios… there are SO MANY lol! And of course each dog is different. And I also really like it because we spend all of our time figuring out how the dog can be successful, which of course leads to more success 🙂
TracyHi!
A couple of ideas to help keep him engaged with the toy for the shhhhh – the main was is to let him play longer with the toy! You were cuing the give withing a second or two of him getting his mouth on it, which might be why it was losing value a bit (the give had more value). When you added the wing wraps after about 1:00, he really got to play – do more of that, he was really getting into it! You can fade the treat after the give by letting him use keep tugging as you go back to the starting point, then cue the give and either let him have the toy back, or cue the wrap (or whichever behavior you are working on).
>>Needed to have a high value reinforcement (Liverwurst) to keep N in the game. Need to fade the treat after Give, but this is difficult with trying to keep him playing. >>
He was playing that well with liverwurst? Impressive!!!! You can keep the sessions short and fast moving with the toy, and yes – keep playing indoors to build the value. The swinging chase toy is vey stimulating! You can also attach a food toy to something and use it instead of a tug toy for situations where he might not be interested in the tug toy but food would do the trick.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Extending our sequences with the WPs is difficult now that winter is upon us. Need to find indoor facilities. Perhaps, Kim’s! Can work on that as a winter project for Nuptse.>>
Yes, other facilities would be great for this! You can also work the remote reinforcement games with anything – tricks, obedience, etc – and that understanding will make the weave training much easier.
>We began Shhhh yesterday. And worked on “Give” with low to higher value toy. Love the idea of training with shhhh. Perhaps,Nuptse will not get so frustrated with the directional training with using Shhhhh to keepthe game going.>>
He definitely seemed to like the shhhhhh game! And he was also really good about a snappy response to the give 🙂 And if he gives the toy back… you can mix in another shhhhh instead of a treat 🙂 I agree that he will like directional training a lot with the shhhh as a reset because it is fun 🙂 and keeps the rate of success pretty high!
Nice work!
TracyHi!
I know, it is CRAZY how the backwards value transfer works LOL! But yet – here she was playing with that toy like a wild woman and also offering stays (hooray!) Great job incorporating the get it shown rewards as well as coming to your hand to tug
The next step would be to get a little interaction with the toy – then the tunnel cue (as a reward for interacting with the toy) then the toy again. That way the tunnel is valuable immediately and not just after a tunnel.The turn backs are going well – I think at first she thought it was BIZARRE because she probably does not have a lot of experience turning *away* from you for the reward. So you got some question behaviors – hopping up, a little barking, some running off with the toy and a little sniffing: all of which say “THIS IS WEIRD MOM!” But by about 1:25, I think it was starting to make sense to her because she immediately turned back to the toy without barking or hopping up, and she brought it back pretty quickly. Nice!!! This is a good one to keep playing with, it is very useful with start line training!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyAww thank you for all the kind words!!! I think training is a community effort: it takes a village to raise our puppies 🙂 You are doing a GREAT job and I am glad you are enjoying our reinforcement geek-fest LOL! And I love sharing ideas, I learn so much from watching you and your dogs!
Tracy
Hi!
Great distraction list!
>>– Judge in the ring that he does not know – needs to go check it out
– Ring crew who are friends of his – will go say hello, but usually not until the end of the run
– My wife when she shows up at a trial just before our run, the timing is always impeccable.>>For the people distraction, can you ask your wife to enter a training session when you are playing the pattern game with get it cookies? Cody can be on leash at first, so he learns to ignore her 🙂 Then you can transfer this game to people at trials and if you have a group class – ask someone to be a judge and you can play this in the ring too!
For the end of the run visiting, that *might* be linked to him not really knowing how to earn reinforcement at the end of the run. The remote reinforcement can help that, so he knows to come back and get leashed up and then go to the treats 🙂
>>– finish obstacle, timers when we have to take it mid run – we’re done Tom where are you going>>
Smart dog!!!! You can add weird looking uprights into training and with your remote reinforcement, have your course curl back through the “timers” and away from them – and only give the remote reinforcement marker when he is moving back into the course. He is predicting that the timers mean cookie time. Clever!! I have some video of this in the remote reinforcement stuff from this week and coming next week.
>>– other dogs, not a problem at trials, but elesewhere they all have the potential to be his new BFF
– squirrels and cats – super chase drive>>All of this can be taken “on the road” to include non-sport life such as leash walks, etc. Bring your treat bag or tennis ball and he can earn rewards for playing these games as a way of life 🙂
The video looked really good!!! He was VERY happy to do the turn back for the reward!!! At this stage, you can take a little lead out and add in either turning him back to the reward, or releasing him forward to you (for an additional reward that you have placed somewhere else) – this release forward and NOT predict reinforcement should also help him with the “I see timing lights, I am done!” reward predicting.
And the mat as tug toy? Still hilarious and brilliant. LOVE IT! Great job 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, that is one option! And also you can work with the bait bag alone as the remote reinforcement outside the ring like he would encounter at a trial.
T
Hi!
Tell Suzie you are in week 3 of puppy class 🙂
>> I’m also thinking about bringing the teeter in, so I could use that too.
Don’t use the teeter yet – we are a ways away from putting any of this on any real obstacles.
>> I also thought about putting a cookie tin under the wobble board?
That’ll be nice and noisy, so wrap it in a towel first and if he is fine with that, then go to the full noisy version of it.
Good morning! This is a super fun game 🙂 He did really well! And being *after* breakfast where he is not hungry is great, it is easier to get him mind off of food. Fun!!!!
And I am glad to hear he enjoyed it enough to try to start it again after he came back in. Yay!
It was fun to see you build in a couple of ‘toy races’!>>Anyway, let me know from a mechanics standpoint what I should be doing, should I add anything,
You can add in more toys, switching out to all sorts of different toys. Make it like Christmas, and you are Santa pulling stuff out of a bag and tossing it around. Then when he plays, pull out another! That will help expand his value for toys in general, as well as help you get an idea of which ones he likes more than others (which is useful for planning training sessions.)
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Nice work on the training here!
Backing up:
Being lower definitely helped! Yay! And she is ‘looking’ for the wobbly thing with her feet and not at all concerned about the noise or movement. Excellent!
I think that head toss is her kind of hoisting her self backwards because it is not always clear when she should start the backing up behavior so she is not taking a moment to get organized for it:
You can use your backing up cue to start it then give some type of clear release that she should come forward to your hand – get a cookie – and after the cookie, cue the backing up. I use “snacks!” which means come to my hand to eat. Eating the cookie is often also the cue to offer backing up again – plus that will allow her to finish chewing/swallowing – on a bunch of the reps, she was chewing AND backing up which si the canine equivalent of patting your head while also rubbing your stomach LOL! Separating each step will make for smoother movement and consistently good form.
And then use a clear toy play cue so she is certain about what is happening at all times>>Anything with any fleecy stuff on it is a no way. And she does not run around with it, she will lie down in front of me and chew it.>>
That is pretty common – there must be some type of “feel good” that is derived from chewing or putting it in their molars and grinding it. You can slide fleecy toys into retrieves by gradually adding bits of them to the HR and milkers.
On the parallel path game – MUCH better about her nit looking at you! What were you saying – a quiet “yes”? Hard to hear but as long as she understood the marker, it is great 🙂 You can also make this more of a high energy game by using a milker or HR: tug tug tug – start ot move – when she hits it – throw the toy – tug tug tug 🙂 It will challenge her to look at her “job” even when arousal is higher and the reinforcement is more exciting 🙂
If you have good weather, take this outside where you can add a little more distance and motion.The sending looks good! Remember the ready dance though – that bit og engagement and play will go a long way here in terms of getting play without food or toys, transitions from handler focus to commitment, and the dogs are MUCH snappier with this behavior when we do the ready dance first 🙂
And yes, you can be clearer with your markers and also chat her up more in general. I think* you were saying chase for the toy, but everything was really quiet – you can use markers, praise, ready ready chatter – all of that increases engagement while also challenging her to be able to do this with more arousal and excitement 🙂 She is ready for that!And yes, she definitely liked the turn and burn game! Wheeeee!
>>I don’t have a fancy laundry thingy
I got my super fancy ones at Walmart for 3.99, I think LOL!
>> I tried to leave progressively earlier, but in real time, it’s hard to know if I actually accomplished that! >>
That is why I put things on the ground as visual aids: when the dog is arriving at the line, literally, I leave. It keeps me from getting into the rhythm of the same timing. My pups did not seem to notice the lines on the ground.
>> In looking at the video slowed down, I may have succeeded.
Yes, you definitely had earlier leaving as you progressed through this session! One thing that might have made it harder to feel was that the barrel is not that wide, so she got around it pretty quickly. What do you have that is wider so there is a longer time needed to get around it? That will really give her the feel of finishing the job! Do you have a large suitcase or anything like that? Giant tree?
One other thing that might have made it harder to feel like you are leaving sooner: On your sends, you are not stepping forward with your dog side leg so you might feel a little twisted and that might be why it was harder to leave sooner. Give a small forward indication with the dog side arm and leg -you had a big arm movement but no leg movement.
You can start to add your verbal wrap cues now, she is 99% sure to wrap so we can name the behavior.
And, start one step further away so you can add in leaving before she arrives at the bucket 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I agree, the class was super fun – the dogs and handlers were brilliant AND we also had a lot of laughs. I have still not had any cheeseballs, I need to find some this weekend LOL!!!
On this video – overall he is doing really well on both sides, so we can adjust a couple of things as you move forward with this:
Because this is a ‘stay committed and finish your job’ game, start closer so we can split out the “stay committed” behavior from the send-from-a-distance behavior. Starting closer adds challenge to the commitment as you leave earlier and earlier because he can see you and the toy, right there, leaving 🙂 That will encourage him to put his head down and bend through the turn more, and also sets up a tighter turn than when you start further away which creates softer turns.
At a bigger distance, I think he is committing nicely (especially on your right side, as you noted) but he is getting a little hoppy (<------ scientific term) with his head up a bit. Staying closer for now will allow you to leave sooner and also get his head down and turning into the bend. So by closer, try to stay within an arm's length of the barrel or just past an arm's length (I am short, so I max out at 2 arms lengths for this stage of turn and burn :)) Your goal is partially to teach finishing the commitment job, and also you can 'mark' the decision to turn his head low and into the turn by making that the moment that you move (movement is such a massive reinforcement :)). So as soon as you see his head turn to start the turn - you can move away for the FC and reinforcement presentation. On the right side, he was really good too but I think the distance was biting you there - at :38 and 1:28, you were pretty far, and your movement away for the FC presented a rear cross line before he had a chance to turn his head to the barrel - so the bad news is that he didn't commit there but the very very very good news is that he can read rear cross lines! Yay! Starting closer will fix that and also build this side up to be super strong as well with the low, turned head. And we will of course build in more distance to it, that will be easy for him 🙂 Great job! Let me know what you think! Tracy
Good morning!
>>Video of a “formal” session of building value for his leash.
I watched the video before reading your post – I thought it was a regular toy! I am happy to hear it was his leash – VERY COOL!!! You can also try addin a harness if he wears one into the ring – my Export used to LOVE tugging on his harness at the end of a run.
>> A tunnel is also our “go to” reward spot when we are training in the ring (mostly because it’s an easy spot for me to reward when in motion and no concerns about what to do if he drops the bar), so far I’ve only done it with one of his favorite toys in the ring.>>
That is why I like to use these little ‘installations’ – without even thinking about it, his leash became his toy, VERY COOL! It is almost a reflexive response from the dog: I grab the thing and play because that is what we do in this context. Yay!
>>Question: I was using my Get It cue not Yours (which is the same as your Bite). That’s the cue I’ve used “from the beginning” because I didn’t have a Yours and now I’m wondering if I should swap cues. In my head my Yours is more of an I’m more stationary and the dog drives into a toy that I’m holding more or less still. Get it as you’ve described it is move away from me to the reinforcer, right? The way I’m using the toy here seems like kinda some of both. The toy is “attached to me” but not “on me”, does that make sense? And it’s moving so he has to if not move sometimes toward me and sometimes away from me to get it. Would it be OK for me to continue to use Get it when reinforcing in this fashion? Or is that going to be confusing to him? Next step with his leash as a reinforcer?>>
Good question! I agree that you can clarify things more for him. I also agree that the “yours” cue should apply to how you did it at the end, with it relatively stationary in your hand. For the get it – you used it two ways here: as a chase the momma with the toy, and as a thrown toy. Chasing it (which is driving towards you) is different than driving away from you when you throw it, (and also different from driving up to you when it is stationary) so I think the thrown reward can rmain a ‘get it’. For the chase the momma reward in hand, you can use the wooooooooo you used on the very first rep, or something like the ‘shhhhhh’ noise I use to differentiate “drive to me and chase” from the “leave me to get it”
Having these as very distinct cues will help him know very specifically where to look and what to do,Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This is looking really good and his wave was too funny!!!
He is happy to come to your side and pivot with you, so only one suggestion about mechanics:
Reward with his head turned towards you and not straight or turned away – that will help him prep his body for the pivots and turned, because the first thing we will want him to do is turn his head 🙂 So, have your hand right next to your leg and a little more forward towards your thigh, so he turns his head into the turn as he arrives at you for the pivots. He was nice and bendy on these pivots, that will transfer really nicely to turns over jumps in the future!
You can add more motion on this – maybe from a restrained, you can Karena can alternate holding him while the other person runs a big distance away – then when he is halfway to you, decel, then pivot. Then the deceler/pivoter can become the holder for the other person to play 🙂 He will get lots of training and hopefully will be tired too LOL!And you can totally move on to the collection sandwich we posted this week.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>So I do actually put a good bit of thought into our session and am a pretty calculating person. I may have just poorly executed things. My general assumption was that since this is a reinforcer off the mama exercise that I really shouldn’t have reinforcement on me>>
I don’t think it was poor execution – I think you were focused on the one behavior and we can plan the full session, in terms of all the potential behaviors. That includes engagement and the loop back to the antecedent before the behavior: we all tend to get muddy in that moment between the consequence (reinforcement) and getting back to the antecedent (cue to start next rep). And that is where we all accidentally end up with behavior that we might not want! I feel that pain.
In this particular behavior – yes, it was a session about teaching him to turn back for a reinforcement placed behind him. That effectively plans the A to B to C of the loop but not the C to A.
>>Which brings me to, I think trading is an awesome idea and it works. If we are practicing behaviors without the reinforcement on the person, where do you keep the food?
In the early stages of teaching the procedure, I have the food in my hand or pocket because we are teaching the dogs to turn back – and the value of the reinforcement will help get he behavior. So, for Fever, a frisbee on the ground is going to be higher value than a dry cookie in your pocket. That gets the behavior going, and gives me a way to get from the C to the A. Then I move the food off of me – when I was filming outside, I put the food on the dog walk ramp. Inside, it was on top of a crate. A second toy can also work.
In my perfect world, I wouldn’t need the food at all because the dog would deliver the the toy to me, tug on the way back to the A position, then out the toy and be ready to start. I don’t live in that world with all of my dogs LOL!! So especially for Contraband, I always plan the C back to the A and that often involves the trade, even if the food is not on me. It can be nearby, and the dog can totally know where it is (because it is nearly impossible to hide it from them).>> Their noses are good enough to know when you have food on you and when you don’t. Fever probably doesn’t care but Callie CARES from within her soul.>>
Truth! And I don’t try to hide that from the dogs. They know where it is and that is why remote reinforcement is so critical.
>>Trading is something he needs work with.
Yes – and when planning sessions, we need to take that into account. For example, with Hottie, I can cue the turn back for the toy and she is highly likely to bring it to me and tug and we can go back to the setup and she will give the toy back early in the session. So with that in mind, I either plan to keep my sessions super short or I plan to have cookies somewhere nearby to use to reinforce the out later in th session, when arousal comes up and the out of the toy is harder for her.
For Contraband, I know that his trading needs work when it is a frisbee so I need to either use a lower value reinforcement like a tug toy which he is highly likely to bring back, or have another type of reinforcement available/nearby when I want to use the frisbee. So I am planning the A-B-C of the behavior I want to train, and the incredibly important C-A part of the session.>>Shifting focus to Callie for a second I have a very hard time using toy reinforcement in agility with her. I’m assuming working loops with small things will be beneficial.
Yes – installing interaction with favorite toys in training with food as part of the procedure too will help!
>>She has such a high association of food with agility that when I present a toy, she often doesn’t want it and will wait out or search for food. She loved frisbee also but won’t really take it as a reward at the end of the run.>>
Yes, conditioned responses are incredibly powerful. And it is possible that when you are presenting a toy, you are asking for a behavior that either she doesn’t understand or doesn’t have enough value. For her, tugging is a behavior, not a reinforcement (yet) in that context. So shape it using very small slices of the behavior, using presentations that are most likely to elicit what you want: moving towards it, tiny bits of interaction, increasing criteria – with food as the reinforcement in a really fast loop. And since she finds agility reinforcing too, probably, putting the toy interaction into these agility-food loops can help shift the value too.
Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Hi!
>> I’m not sure how to do 2o2o without using a target and a nose touch.>>
I train the 2o2o separately from the teeter by using a target and a travel plank (but not necessarily a nose touch, it depends on the dog – but the lowered head position that the target brings is VERY valuable for teeter training!). Using the target makes things VERY clear for the dog, and it is easy to fade – and I like clear and easy LOL!!
I shape the dog to move from 4on the plank into a target position, first with me in front of them and then moving myself off to the side, with ALL of the value initially right on the target. I use my ‘catch’ procedure for this, because no matter where I am, I want the dog to stay in target position and wait for the reward to be tossed to him. When he can do the targeting on a travel plank, I move the game and the target to the games you describe of running down the teeter board, or jumping onto the end of it.
You can use a MM but only if the dog understands what the target is all about – otherwise, the MM is too much of a distraction at first, and it also draws the dog’s focal point up and forward. On a teeter, I want the dog to be looking down to where his front feet will be when he steps off the board, which creates the weight shift and balance we need for when the board is moving.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
