Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Good morning!
Nice session here!!! This was good information about the value of placed reinforcement – dead tenny or dead frisbee are not necessarily perceived as reinforcement but the lotus ball is. It was a great reminder that ‘reinforcement is in the eye of the beholder’ – in other words, the dog decides if the thing is actual reinforcement or not LOL!
So that gives us 2 thing to remember –
– when trying to build a behavior, use what she perceives as reinforcement – lotus ball if it is a placed reinforcement, for example. This wing wrap is mainly to help us sort out the procedures but if you were legitimately trying to shape a new behavior or bring the behavior into a new environment: always choose what you know is guaranteed to be reinforcement. And these little experiments allow us to plan for that because we get great feedback from Keiko!– And separately, build the value of the ‘dead’ reinforcement to get her driving to it and picking it up, so it is available in your toolbox of reinforcement at some point in the future. I do that with toy races from the puppy games 🙂 And also shaping it a bit: a tiny bit of interaction followed by the toy then moving (like the friz on a leash – if she interacts with it or touches it with her mouth, you can reward that by moving it).
And when she will interact with the ‘dead’ toy at all, you can install that into the ‘building value for toys’ concept by putting it into a series of behaviors that have a long reinforcement history (that she also really enjoys :)) and following it with a higher value reinforcement. So for example: Do a tunnel, send to a ‘dead’ tennis ball. when she interacts with the dead ball, even just a little: mark it with the marker to chase the frisbee or tug on it.
You can see how well that type of value building works, with the frisbee tugging! You basically put frisbee tugging into an existing reinforcement process – wing wrap then tug on the moving toy – so it didn’t take her long at all to begin to tug on the frisbee rather that wait for it to be thrown!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! There is actually a lot of good stuff happening here!!!
Value looks good, he seems to understand how to hit is and he is moving to it. The only question he has is how to leave your hand and leave the reinforcement. So, we tweak it a little to shift the value off of you. 2 ideas:
I know the instructions says to reward back at you, and you’re being quite perfect. So perfect, in fact, that value has shifted to being so tight that he doesn’t want to leave you 🙂
So, let’s shift value back to leaving you: send then click then toss the treat out past the pillow. It will get him driving to it a lot better and less interested in your hand. Now, if he loses that value of coming back, we can change placement – that is pretty normal to do with puppies.
If you feel like you need a 3rd arm, you can drop the clicker and send with one hand, toss with the other.
One other idea: he is not always ready for tue next send after the cookie. So call him back to you, give him a little ready dance… then send. That helps prep him for the send and gets him jazzed up too! And it folds in some handler focus versus send focus 🙂Let me know what you think! Nice work!
TracySimple! Remote reinforcement 🙂 in training, when the reinforcement is present, it also serves as a cue in many ways.
Without the presence of the Reward, her arousal changes and the behavior changes.
Putting all of the behaviors into the remote reinforcement procedures will totally help! I dod it with the weaves in the demos posted yesterday.
Separately, get her as stimulated as possible in training (do 5 tunnel in a row til she is frothing :)) then do a stopped behavior. At the beginning, the Reward can be present but then work up to being able to do this with remote reinforcement.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! You can randomize the toy placement when it is “pre-placed” and don’t let her see you place it there. 🙂 Ping pinging where the reward is (close, far, closer, further, and so on) will help build the duration of this behavior which in this case translates to the number of jumps she takes.
I like the helper idea! But the #1 thing as that the helper does not become a target 🙂 so when someone else is throwing, have the person in random areas anywhere on course except that last jump 🙂 and the person should also randomize where to throw the Reward, so it is happening early and later, also ping ponging it.
Last idea – because we see this at the end of courses, you can build it into Remote reinforcement by back chaining:
Last jump then let’s go to reward
2 last jumps then let’s go
3 last jumps then let’s go
So the remote reinforcement and the leash are the targets that can always be there 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
The dead toy reinforcement is definitely a part of the get it procedure that you can build up, which makes it useful for weave training as you described. Away from weaves, what does she does on a get it to a dead toy on the ground?You can also move the toy more than 6 feet away, the “pressure” of the toy being so close might be eliciting the stalking behavior. Try it 10 or 15 feet away and see what she does!
T
Hi! In trying to figure out how to get more tug, the first question is: what will he put his mouth on? Can be traditional things like toys or frisbees or balls, or untraditional things like shoes, old socks, paper towel rolls, feathers…. we can see what he likes to put in his mouth and build it from there!
TracyHi!
The next one is on December 9 at 7pm.
>> If only they would allow cookies in the agility ring!
Do this with toys! And his leash 🙂
T
Hello! Welcome back!
She was really catching on! What a good girl! This all looked really strong.
She did best when you led out watching her so keep eye contact as you move away, for now. And letting her settle into position before you step away might be helpful (but some dogs just want us to leave and get on with it, she will let us know)Glad you did it in front of a tunnel, I was going to suggest that but you already had it and she was perfect. YAY!
The catch reinforcement really solidified the stay with a couple of my youngsters too, I still use it a LOT in training and also in NFC runs at trials. So keep using this a LOT with her, mix it in everywhere 🙂 And, be sure to balance it with releases forward to the jump or tunnel: that will add more stimulation, which in turn will challenge the stay behavior.
Great job here!
TracyHi –
>> Should I try marking the back feet moving too? You had me stop that, well switch to saying ‘get it’, but that isn’t a marker for telling her she is doing the right thing and I sort of feel that is something that is missing now since there doesn’s seem to be much telling her what is right as the tossed treat seems more of a lure than a reward.>>
Actually, the get it is both a marker for “that was correct, reinforcement is available” and an indicator of where to look for it (on the ground and not in your hand). The first treat between your feet is a lure to come forward, but the second one with the get it is a very fast reward for the first weight shift back. If you click or wait longer, she is going to look at you or turn around.
>>That is going to be tough, she really doesn’t have much space between her front legs yet being not quite 19 weeks yet but we will try.
That is why training is a mechanical skill 🙂
>>>I can use our hallway for this.
Too much room to run in a hallway. Use your smallest bathroom.
>>– Ttwo toys that are long enough to tug on?
Yes
>>– Toys about the same value?
Yes, but they don’t need to be identical.
>>– Hpw much distance do you think I should give her to get the toy and come back? I didn’t give her much and I am thinking that may have been wrong?
6 inches lol
>>– if she doesn’t bring it towards me at all what then? Go in and play tug with the one she has?
She does not need to bring it toward you at all at first – in fact she probably won’t at first – she just needs to either not move it away at all, or not move it way much (if that is the best starting point)
>> If she doesn’t pick up the toy just redo? no playing with either tug for that one?
Yes, still play – engage her with the one she didn’t pick up. If she says it has no value, then switch to a different toy.
Wobble board:
>>I don’t see any signs of over-stimulation. Great! Just playing with a toy on a floor that happens to move a little.<< >> That is pretty much what happened with Rayven and it took over a year to fix trying many different things and then finally using Amy Cook’s play way information which just got her super comfortable with minimal arousal being involved at each stage until she was comfortable.>>
I think Rayven was an unusual case in terms of arousal and environmental sensitivity, wouldn’t you agree? Unless Beka is a really close relative or a genetic repeat, I don’t think you need to worry as much. The playing here was just about playing which is a great way to introduce different surfaces – it is basically a pattern game using a toy. Otherwise, we risk creating issues where none exist. Moving too quickly by adding more tip when she is concerned can cause an issue, but this toy game simply used a higher value reinforcement that food to introduce a new concept into a pattern. When food comes up in value, I think you will be able to use it in more places but for now – the toys make this type of exploration a lot more worthwhile for her.
T
Hi!
Ah, bummer about the camera, I hate when that happens!!!On this video: awww he is soooo cute!!! Drive to you is perfect of course so one suggestion: lower your cookie hand so he does not need to lift his chin to eat. That will either mean you have to bend over more, or you can use a long wooden spoon with a big of cream cheese on the end to be a hand-extension 🙂
You can definitely add more distance here and you can add in your motion as well as the pivots (not sure if that was part of what got lost when the camera misbehaved :))
Backing up – he is really starting to get this!! He is a bit frustrated, though, so I think we can clarify it for him a bit and make it easier:
toss the reinforcement between his front feet rather than hand it to him. Handing it to him stops him and brings him back towards you, rather than promoting moving further back.
You being on the floor and feeding him close is encouraging the down a bit, so you can add in sitting in a chair – you being higher will help him not want to down. And you can use the chair to start him under you and then he will back out (check out Kirstie and Lori doing this with their pups too :))
The other option is to have him back up to a destination – start all four feet on a dog bed, for example, then lure his front feet off – and reward him for stepping back onto the bed. Then we can work up to all four feet off and he steps backwards onto the bed. That might be very easy and clear for him!
If he gets frustrated and barks, try not to say ‘nope’ or ‘do something else’ as those both are markers for being wrong. That will frustrate him more. Instead, make it easier and reward faster, or change position so it is easier for him to offer the behavior.Great job here!!! Can’t wait to see more 🙂
TracyHi!
>>Oh I like this and I think Sly will too….eat from the MM and throw the Hollee Roller! He’ll think that is a blast!
And other times you don’t even need to loop the food in, you can just have the HR there for him to take 🙂
>> while I’m figuring out the foot placement of what I just saw and whether or not it’s “jackpot worthy” and if it is I’ve been running in and adding better treats to the MM, but I think I’ll try throwing the Hollee Roller. >>
I spend a lot of quality time staring at the mat to see if feet hit it 🙂 It becomes almost slow motion after a while.
>>Me running in and adding treats is creating him standing there for a bit waiting to see if more are coming. I’ve been sorting through a cue to let him know that it’s “all done” and that helps but I think throwing the ball will help with that and he likes it so much…. Also I can probably play with ball/more food depending on what his arousal level is, right?>>
Yes – the HR can be used as part of the reset between the MM and the next rep. One of the games posted today address that – the Shhhhh procedure work. So for Hot Sauce, she would do the mat, get the cookie from the MM, I would say shhhhhhh and she would run back o the cookie in my hand and follow my hand to the reset position, eat the cookie, then back to running through the mat. With the toy, I would either use shhhhhhh if it was a tug, or ‘bite’ if it was a frisbee to get the reset.
The video was really interesting, I think there were a lot of things happening here!
Definitely use more of your marker (yours) and less of the ‘yes!’ and verbal excitement – the excitement was sometimes before the markeror the marker got lost in it. Be pretty chill with the verbals in the shaping here, like youwere when you were practicing the yours and mine at about 4:12 and after.
Speaking of being chill 🙂 I think the body language in the beginning with the toys was very ‘ready set GO!’ and not the relaxed body language we use in shaping. He definitely reads that as a cue… to sit! Ha! Particularly o your left side, he has a conditioned response to offer a sit stay (not so much on your right side, which also tells us that you probably line him up on your left a lot). This is probably a by-product of his experience running courses and toys as the reinforcement: “we start with a stay and run a sequence”.
That was totally different with food- food plus your posture being more relaxed were a cue to offer behavior, and that is one of the earliest things he learned – and he probably did a lot of food shaping as a baby as you built up toy drive separately, so food is strongly associated with shaping.
So with that in mind, you can do more shaping with toys only – using a wing, be closer to the wing and more relaxed, maybe even down sitting. And you can shape any other behavior with a toy – get on random things, go around things, etc, to both get the reinforcement procedure more firmly established and also to get him used to offering behavior in the presence of toys.
Great job here! Really fun session to watch!
TracyHi! Lots of good stuff here!
Prop game/sends:
The value looks good! You might need to put the prop on something so it doesn’t move when he hits it 🙂>>Leo gets very worked up during this game, and while he can still think and goes to the prop and purposely targets it (yay), he gets very bitey on my hands while I’m engaging him and before I send him (owwww), and he vocalizes out of frustration a couple times too.>>
I jotted notes on this before I came back and read your post! Yes, I noticed that he seemed to think that waiting for the cue (handler focus) was silly when he could have been out there doing the thing!!!!!! So, we can help him learn to be patient and stay in handler focus, without frustration and without self-sending 🙂
Away from the prop game, bend your knees, ask if he is ready… and when he does nothing other than be relatively still, give him a treat. Basically, we are reinforcing stillness even when he is excited 🙂 And when he can do that with treats, we can switch to a toy which is definitely more exciting for him here!
And then it builds up to you being able to get him really jazzed up and he will still be patient, without any tooth hugs or cursing LOL!With the prop – have your ready dance be less of a party, and more of a calm question: ready? Then a cookie for stillness… then send to the prop. So he will start to learn that stillness and engagement in that context will get the game happening, not cursing and tooth hugs 🙂 And we can ramp it up over time, so eventually it can be a full-on ready dance festival.
The send to the prop with the food looked great! The toy changes things because he wants to watch the toy and hit the prop. So two ideas for you:
he is really strong with the food reinforcement, so add in the toy just tucked under your armpit but everything remains the same with food as the reinforcement. That can add in a little bit of the toy arousal, but it will be less in his face (and not really moving) so he watches it less. Eventually, we can add it in to the gam but when you do that, start by shaping it with the toy, from up close – so he learns to look away from the toy, in order to get the toy 🙂On the 2nd video, Drive to handler – easiest thing ever for him 🙂 With the cookies, have your hand touching your leg so he is really tight to you, like you did with the first rep of the pivots – so nice! The pivots with the cookies all looked really strong, he is really bending into the turns! Your cookie hand wanted to move away from your leg, so keep reminding the cookie hand to stay super tight to your leg.
He was naturally tighter to you with the toy on the straight decels, so I bet he will be naturally tight with the toy on the pivot too!
Great job with these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Lots of great stuff here!
Driving ahead: Very nice driving to the dead toy! YAY!!!
>> I haven’t added my motion, but I think I could now, what do you think?
Yes, add in your motion first with walking and then see how it goes – if he is still fine, we can add more and more motion. And it will help him turn left too, based on your observation:
>> My other question comes because he is always turning to the right. Do you want me to hold off on doing more of this, or is there an adjustment you’d like me to make? Maybe it would not be an issue if im racing up to the toy?>>
On your left, he should be turning to his right… but on your right, he should be turning left. Now, he might be reading subtle turn cues when you step in behind him… or he might be a strong righty. We definitely want to encourage the left turn starting as soon as we can get it.
The easiest thing to do is see if adding your movement encourages the left turn, because you are moving and more visible: when he is on your right, be pretty close for now as you move so you are pretty much right near him to encourage him to turn towards you (left turn).
If that works? Cool! If not, and he still turns right – We take out the distance and you him up close to you on your right, so we basically just drop the toy and have him turn left to get to you. And also when he is on your right and you turn and run away: for now, take one or two steps off to the side so it is easy for him to turn to his left. Let me know if that makes sense.
Wrap foundation – the milk can is awesome! It took him a moment to stop thinking about the toy, but then he was great 🙂
Look how well he turns left here, he looks nicely balanced to his left and his right – he is zipping around the milk can in both directions really well, and with a toy! Perfect! We build on this more tomorrow 🙂Goat games:
>> I think he’s doing well going back to the toy after the food. It’s still not as high value as food, but I think it’s improving.>>He is looking great with this! It is NOT an easy thing with dogs but it is great that he is showing nice value for both! And you can keep using low value food (is there such a thing for Shelties) and then whip out the craziest high value toy in shaping sessions: that helps get him back onto the toy even in situations that are heavily associated with food. He took a moment to get on the toy here but you kept it moving and he especially seemed to love it at the end when you got silly with your voice!!!
He was a superstars with all of the moving objects here. You can have him use all a the same time, as a mini obstacle course 🙂 And you can move the wobble board to different surfaces, so it makes different noises when it moves.
Plankrobatics:
Great job keeping the toy moving! You can even throw it. He was right there next to all the things that mean food so he needed more engagement to get on the toy… and he did! Yay!
He was super confident on the plank here. When you have him turn in a circle, move your hand slowly so he can move his back feet more deliberately. He was going fast so his back feet were not on his mind as much as his front feet 🙂 Moving the circle hand more slowly will get him to lift and place this back feet more deliberately.
Yes- you can raise this for sure, he looked very confident.Great job here!
Tracy
