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Good morning!
Thank you for the update, it sounds like he is doing well!!!>> Learned that I need to say the word as he is “behind” me.
Yes, that would make sense – he is a big dude with a big stride, so needs to know as early as possible. That will mean hearing the verbal cue 15 or 20 feet before the turn jump! So keep adding it as early as possible so he has time to get organized and change his striding 🙂
>>And my older two decided they wanted a refresher and show off they could do this (for food treats of course.).
Perfect! I bet they were awesome!!!!
Tracy
About the bar… on most of the dropped bar reps, you had a beautifully timed “strike” while he was over the bar so he dropped his feet to come back to the reward, dropping the bar. So either wait to say ‘strike’ til he has landed, or lock the bar in so timing of the marker can be early and he is less likely to drop it.
Later in the video, he was moving like he was hot and/or fatigued, so separating conditioning days and jumping days should help, along with keeping the bar low. At 16″ bar might seem easy but there are a LOT of reps which can fatigue him more quickly than a 10″ bar.T
Good morning!
>>With Callie, I think I need to go back to the mini pinney set up because her understanding just isn’t there. She’s taking it as a go and thinks she’s correct so I need to revisit the concept first.>>
yes, she might need a refresher. She was taking it as a go even on just a wing? You can start closer to it and move less to get the bal lrolling.
>>Fever and I have done remedial dig dig for a couple of days. Yesterday he was extra frustrated and bit me several times revisiting this.
Do you have video? Count the number of reps versus the number of reinforcements versus number of no rewards… and that will tell you why he was biting you 🙂 He wears his heart on his sleeve!
>>Today was much better and I walked away with only one tooth hug. I’m trying not to obsess over this one. I do think he still needs the walking part.>>
I thought he did well on the wrap reps early in the video! And yes, to get massive collection completely independent of decel, it takes a long time. But, when you handle on a sequence for real, it will be pretty easy to ge tthe behavior when you add decel and handling to the verbal!
>>We added lefts and rights also.
He is doing well here! Keep gradually adding a bit more motion – keep the bar lower, though, that first bar looked like it was 16 which is a little high with all the reps.
>>He had a little confusion on the go but is better in one direction than the other.>>
yes – you can help him more and reward sooner, so there is not as much failure, especially after he did all of those turn reps. You can help with starting closer or a bit more motion. And do a reset reward on every rep, whether it was a correct rep or not, so he doesn’t bite you 🙂 It is really important to keep the umbrella rate of reinforcement high, especially if there is a possibility of failure in the skill training.
Also, bear in mind that the Go is more about what he does over the first jump in comparison to the turn cues – so you don’t need to wait to throw based on whether he takes 2 jumps or not. So :44 was rewardable even if he didn’t go all the way to the 2nd jump. Lookin at your GO definition: middle of the bar, extension – he was pretty correct there. The Go definition doesn’t mean take 2 jumps 🙂 And since we are shaping behavior, we can totally reward successive appromixations of roughly correct behavior.
>>For your entertainment watch my sorrow when I throw the frizz into the neighbors yard
Oh no! Dog abuse!!! LOL!
Nice work here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Ooh you are making some really strong progress here with independent verbals!!! The first couple of reps to the right were lovely, she was zippy and turned really well. But the first really big moment was at :16 where you switched to the left cue, and the wing was in the same place. Watch her striding – she was on autopilot for a moment and was about to turn right – and then processed the verbal – and went out of her way to turn left. HUZZAH!!!! Good girl!
The next bunch of lefts were lovely.We will ignore the handler brain error in the middle LOL!!
:51 was also a really cool moment – you had the tree-wrap before it and also you accelerated (she is so fast, she is going to be seeing a lot of acceleration from you, you won’t have time to decelerate to create turns. The goal is that you can just keep moving and “yell the thing” to create the turns 🙂 ) – she almost got swept away in the acceleration but then processed it – and turned right. That earns another HUZZAH!
1:10 was a bit of a disorganized handler moment 🙂 – she was actually still correct, because you were bending your running line and blocking the wing, so she took the jump turning right – so it was still a good reward.
My only suggestion on the wings here is to toss sooner – trust that when you see her begin to make the turn before he wing that she will complete the turn, so you can totally toss the toy as she arrives at the wing (so she doesn’t look back at you at all, and so it doesn’t accidentally end up in the same place as the wrap rewards).
For you next sessions:
– keep going with the tree-wrap starts 🙂 Start yourself nice and close to the tree, so she has to drive into the setup ahead of you – which means no decel from you, just yelling verbals, and she will be out ahead processing them.
– if that goes well, you can replace the wing with a jump and start with walking up the line, to see how she does with adding a jumping effort to the left/right turns.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
She did really well with the left and right here! the right looked a little stronger than the left perhaps, but we will see how it percolates in future sessions. Both were good!
A couple of ideas about the mechanics:
You can use left/right as the releases – no need to release then left/right because that delays the info and the release tells her to move but not HOW to move. Left and right are very specific!Great job adding the get it verbal! You don’t need to say “yes get it” – the get it is both the marker for correct behavior AND the location of reinforcement. And we don’t want to pair ‘yes’ in to the reinforcement because if you say ‘yes’ on course, she might stop working and start looking for reinforcement. So I urge people to NOT say yes – just say ‘get it’ or whatever marker is appropriate.
And since food is notoriously hard to throw, you can use something like a lotus ball or treat hugger- it is easier to throw, easier for the dog to see, but not as exciting as a tennis ball or tug toy 🙂
Great job here! For the next soft turn session, keep adding motion and add the start wing before this setup 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>>I think for quite awhile I was not using food as much as I could have with her. She’s really my first sheltie that is toy driven. I worked super hard on that with her as a puppy. She was much more food motivated at first than toys(Hello Sheltie). I would lose her toy focus sometimes with food and I think I was just scared to use the food. I really did need to use the food though!!! >>
Yes – it is hard to know what the exact balance is with puppies, there is a lot of back-and-forth trying to figure it out. You are getting a really good handle on her needs and preferences!
>>You suggested the reset cookie and that changed a lot for her! Her reinforcement rate also has to be EXTREMELY high(as should all dogs)!!!
The reset cookie keeps what I call the ‘umbrella’ rate of reinforcement high – meaning, a high rate of reinforcement for everything in the environment, not just the skill we are trying to train. It has made a huge difference in keeping the dogs happy to work in a balanced state of arousal.
>>I was able to get away with not being as consistent with my reinforcement rate with my first two shelties(Potter is an absolute Saint of a dog) but Promise says she will only accept the best trainer lol!!! No sloppiness allowed!!!
Ha! Yes, every dog is different even if they are the same breed – they all respond to a low rate of reinforcement, but they respond differently: some barkk/jump like Promise, some slow down or freeze up. And some dogs find the middle ground and put up with our learning and keep going 🙂
>>I have adding food A LOT more to my training sessions and I’m seeing much better results because of it. I have also not seen the loss of toy drive with her either!
Food can be so helpful and I am very excited to hear the toy drive remains strong!
>>Im starting with food with all things right now to teach a behavior and then adding the toy after the behavior has a general understanding. I’m seeing much better results.
Happy dance! Basically it sounds like you are teaching new skills in a lower state of arousal, then using the toy to increase the arousal to help solidify the skill – that is perfect! There is a strong scientific basis to it and also since she is going to aroused when running, helping her be able to work while aroused is very important!
Onwards to the verbals:
>>Extension: GO– take the line of jumps in front of you as fast as you can leaving me in the dust- center of bar>>
Yes – and think about what her jumping effort should look like (big extension, where she needs to takeoff, where she needs to look, etc
>>Over– take the jump relatively straight. Can also be a very slight curve. mostly center of bar
Less extension here, somewhere in that grey area between GO and left/right
>>Get Out- change leads and go away taking obstacle away from me. center of bar
I also have “then come back to original lead and stay on parallel line to my path” to this one because it gives the dog extra info on the exit of the jump.
>>Turn cues:
Wraps- check check check- wrap jump 180 to right-jumping right near wing
dig dig dig- wrap jump 180 to left-jumping right near wing
left- turn 90ish degrees to left nearish wing
right- turn 90ish degrees to right nearish wing>>Sounds good! And start to visualize what you think her jumping effort on the takeoff side will look like – that helps define criteria.
>>Switch- this is my rear cross cue. I do have big questions on this after last nights
video chat. I do realize it is a “VAGUE” cue. Rears are more and more being presented in different ways. It was my word for either side too. Wondering what to do on this????>>Yes, switch is a general cue kind of like “over” – it doesn’t give a lot of direction about what happens after the jump. So maybe use it for a RC where you have a wide open curve, like ‘over’? I use directionals on the tighter turn rear crosses (left/right, wrap cues, etc)
>>backside slice verbal- back back back wrap around backside of jump and take bar at a slice angle going in new direction
>>backside wrap verbal- wrap wrap wrap. come in close to wing and wrap 180 back
I like the definitions! Try running around (without her) and see if back back back and wrap wrap wrap end up sounding similar when repeated while running.
>>Threadle slice- in in in come in between jumps and take jump at a slice
>>Threadle wrap- haha I need this in my life!!! will think of a word. Probably will steal Carrie’s and Jamies lolYes, you will need a threadle wrap verbal but not any time soon – it is popular so she will need it in Masters but you’ve got time on your side LOL
>>Tunnel threadle–here here here. take opposite side of tunnel you are presented with
>>Go tunnel. take tunnel and extend out on line
>>tunnel- take tunnelSo for the tunnel exits, those are separate from the ‘go in the tunnel’ cues – when she is committed to the tunnel, we add the directional before she goes in and that tells her how to exit.
>>free- release word
>>READY- automatic down, when you do I lead out and we get the party startedI noticed that she was responding really well to ‘ready’ in the last video! Very cool!
>>Of course she has all the toy reinforcement words and many other things. Im too lazy to list them all. The toy reinforcement words helped a ton with her. Another game changing moment with her. One thing with the treat n train too was I changed its reinforcement word to snacks. When I said get it she was looking for toy and that was causing some frustration with the sloooow to deliver food robot.>>
Yes, SO MANY WORDS hahha! And in a strange way, the treat n train is teaching her some patience because the wait for the food is worthwhile, because it reliably spits out cookies LOL!
Great list here!
TracyThanks for the reminder! I will be posting it shortly and will email everyone when I have it ready.
Tracy
Hi!
>>Today we tried Games 1 and 2 from Week 2. She did well on the first game, with turns around the wing, so we moved straight on to Game 2.
Yes, she was great on these!!! Did you add in the wing wrap before it? I think that might be the way to add more motion, especially on those right turns – doing it from a wing wrap can help you both add motion in an easier setup.
>> She did well at first, but I noticed on the video that I tended to move in the left or right directions, especially with increased speed – I’m thinking this is probably a no-no!
Yes, she did really well with setting up her soft turns!! I thought your motion was fine 🙂 you didn’t do anything overly “helpful”, you were mainly moving forward (OK, maybe you pulled away a little to avoid hitting the aframe LOL!)
One suggestion – keep your left and right verbals a little longer and not repeated as quickly. That will help her process: riiiight riiiight riiiight is very distinct and rightrightright might end up sounds like a wrap verbal when said really quickly.
>>When I sent her round the stanchion first, she had difficulty with the right turns when I ran faster, so I decreased speed until she got it, then increased it a little again.
Yes, for whatever reason, that was indeed harder. Slowing down was totally the right thing (pun intended haha) and she really helped. In that situation, try not to add back speed top quickly: a couple of failures should be followed by the rest of the session at a slower pace, rather than a couple of reps. That will help build the skill and avoid more errors when you add back more speed in the following session. I think adding speed on the wing game by adding a start wing will totally help get her happy with it too 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> She’s been a little extra in the pushy department lately. So maybe some impulse control and resetting of boundaries ?
Or, more clarification of what is available and when 🙂
>>Jamie has related how having clear markers has helped Fever. In the past when Roulez has made a grab for the toy, I have stopped motion, she backs off and we continue.
That is a punisher though (a mild one, but still a negative punishment) so I prefer to have the markers in place so the dogs know when it the toy is available. That way she can be more sure of what to do and when. That will help with the hiccups and the pushy behavior.
>>When I have used a marker, it has been “get it”. But I also use “get it” when asking them to retrieve an object. I will start transitioning to another reward marker for taking the reward from my hand.>>
Perfect!!! I have found it to really help 🙂
On the video – she did well with the wraps!!! I really like having the toy place out by the wing – I didn’t see any hiccups even though the toy was exciting! I would definitely add a ‘get it’ cue on that too, rather than just praise. And when your knee has clearance, you can start to add more speed and leaving sooner and sooner – with the toy placed out by the wing and nowhere near you 🙂
Game 3 was easier for her on the left turn side, looked pretty perfect1
On the right turn side – much harder! It could have been your position on the line? Or it could be that she just has a harder time turning right? But she was figuring it out by the end 🙂
So for your next Game 3 session: add more motion to the left turns only. Do the right turns on the wing with just walking for one more session til she is 90% successful or above, then we can add more of your motion after that 🙂And you were doing a great job of NOT helping with the handling here! All of the turn decisions were her decisions and not handling-induced. Great job!!!!
TracyHi!
That is really interesting about the weave training – she is able to stay in a more level state of arousal. And yes – if you are using the reset cookies before/during/after the reps LOL then it keeps the rate of reinforcement SUPER high for the whole process, even if the skills are not perfect yet. That is good to know!!!
THi!
Good session here! He was getting the idea of the left and right and organizing his turns really well. Good boy!!! I like how your verbals were relaxed a quiet, but also different from the wrap verbals. You can also repeat them a few times, by extending them: riiiiight riiiight riiiiight for example.For tomorrow or whenever you get a chance to try this again: no placed toy. It is way too easy for him at this point – he doesn’t have to listen to the verbals because the toy is there making it obvious 🙂 You could probably say “party party party” and he will go over the jump to the toy LOL!!! So, with that in mind, have the toy in your hand and throw it when you see him make a decision (you can add in the GO balance reps too!). The other option is to have 3 placed toys: one on the GO line, one on the right turn, one on the left turn. That way the reward is immediate without making it too easy. But 3 placed toys might make his head explode, so it is better if you hold the toy and throw it for now 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracySo either don’t used a placed toy at all (throw it rather than place it)
Hi!
Her soft turns looked great! She is organizing herself really well! In the beginning of the session, she didn’t have many errors and got the rep after error correct which was great! No worries about the one or two oopsie rewards LOL! Overall, a really lovely session.She had more trouble towards the end of the session, when you were doing the wing wraps to the left turns. I think that was more arousal-based. That is something you’ve seen – when arousal is higher, she has more questions and errors (totally normal!!). So here is an idea: set up your session as a bell curve. Start with a couple of easy reps to each side, as a bit fo a warm up. Then, before the arousal kicks in, do a couple of harder reps (the start wrap to the left turns with you moving a bit more were definitely harder!) Then after a couple of reps, wind down the session with a few easier ones, similar to what you did at the beginning (like the last couple of left turns you had on this video). That way, you work the harder stuff before the arousal kicks in fully. Then when she is really stimulated, you ask her is she can still do the easy stuff!
That way we accomplish 2 things:
– we teach her the new, hard stuff
– we make sure she still understands the easier stuff when she is stimulatedLet me know if that makes sense 🙂
>> was interesting that when I decided to loop back with a mistake I got the same jumping up behavior as the double wraps!
You marked the error, and so she got mad LOL! Don’t mark it, she knows 🙂 because you didn’t throw the reward. Call her back, present the reset cookie as you call her, and move to the next rep.
At 1:29 when you had an error and then just carried on back to the wrap, she barked but did not really jump.
Compare it to 1:44 where you marked an error with “oh!” And she totally barked and jumped up at you.>>It also interesting how I get louder and higher pitched with motion
That I might need to work on with her. I’m all zen walking and then I add motion and go up a few levelsHa! We all do that, which is why my wrap cues are noises that simply cannot be shouted, and my soft turn verbals are questions – very hard to shout! LOL!
Great job here! I think on the next soft turn session: start with a couple of left/ right on the wing from the start wing, then do a couple left/right on a jump from the start wing, then take the jump out and end on a couple of easy ones from the start wing to the wing. Let me know what you think!
TracyHowdy!
This was also a super session! It reminded me of one more thing I want to add to the “Stark, drive to the jump and don’t jump up an bark at your momma” suggestions: when he is starting at your side, start with your hand in his collar, start saying the verbal… then let go and see what happens – that might also help him drive directly forward and not bark/jump at your side. The goal is to de-condition him from that bark/jump at your side (I don’t know if de-condition is actually a word or not LOL)Otherwise, I am super happy with how he did with his left/right turns here! You can definitely add the start wing before it and keep throwing the reward on the line like you did. And if he is great with that, go on to add the jump (and the balance reps) so we can see how he is organizing himself for the turn.
Great job here!!!!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
