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Hello and welcome!!!! Glad to see you here and I agree – there is always something new we can learn from the dogs 🙂
I think for her, the best starting points are the pattern games and the remote reinforcement games (plus the tricks games, especially when the cookies are NOT in your hands :))
Let me know how she does!
TracyHi!
>>When he screams with excitement while other dogs are running – how does he do if he runs next? Have you ever tried that?
I don’t think that I have recently. I also noticed at your seminar when you held him for me and I ran without a dog, he got very excited and screamed so it’s certainly something I should revisit. I had done FOMO in the past when he was younger with Callie and usually got the result that I needed in training.
At trials, he really just keeps oriented to me and doesn’t get as excited. It’s very interesting.>>Yes, revisit it – let him watch a friend run without trying to control what he does – then when that dog is done and out of the ring, try him on a simple sequence and see what he does! #DataCollection
>>He is somewhat of a target by other dogs- when I pull him out of his crate, often other dogs growl and lung as we walk by at their crates
When that happens, what do you do?
>>I will walk him with a cookie lure. If it’s unexpected, I give him food to or toss a cookie or just try to pet and console him. Sometimes he will get barky-lungy in response so we add distance, walk quickly and just crisis manage.Maybe try a friz toss! Have a friz stuff in your pants or something and it can come out in those moments. It is both a high value pairing AND it gets him out of the situation faster – it can be a short toss but he loves the friz so much I think he will be fine with that 🙂
>Does he tug on his leash?
>He is not the best at this. I am working on building it, but he doesn’t love it. I’ve had to build it with Callie as well, so I think we can get there. He loves picking up things and bringing them to me, so I think we can get more value. He also loves tugging with me.>>Perfect! Keep playing with it and attach a toy to it, so it is a big weird toy : )
>>When we first considered meds, the behaviorist didn’t think he needed something daily (like an SSRI) but we have a follow up scheduled in April so I can discuss more at that time. I’ve seen a dramatic reduction in his general anxiety at home- he used to freak by all sorts of sounds and get stressed/shake and that’s exponentially better.>>
Glad there is a follow up! The clonidine and xanax are for more for ‘in the moment’ help, particularly if you know there is a ‘moment’ that will be happening. An SSRI can be helpful for the general day to day “life-is-good” state, which might be the piece of the puzzle that helps put everything together. He is not a dog that lives a daily life in extreme anxiety, so it might not be an obvious case for help. But there might be *just enough* anxiety that is underlying that he can use the help. That is certainly the case in human medicine and I have seen it be super helpful in a lot of dogs. Having the SSRI (or similar) on board already can make the moments when he xanax or clonidine are needed even easier and/or even further reduced, especially when something unpredictable happens.
>>I think he’s more resilient.
Right! I think he is making excellent progress!!
T
Hi again!
I am glad you are feeling better!!!
LOTS of good tricks here! He seemed to enjoy everything except the back foot targeting. I really like the leg hugs 🙂 Keep working the leg weaves too, so he is very zippy through them. That is a high action trick while being close to the momma.Does he bark on cue? If not… let’s train it. SUPER useful trick for engagement!!
One thing to add here is to use your food like a toy – move it, get him to chase it, you can get a lot more motion on the food so it is more toy-like. I like to cue a trick, then explode with praise, run a few steps and reward with a cookie, or have the dog chase it in my hand and maybe even do a spin before I deliver it. So after the head-down tricks, for example, you can have him pop up to get the cookie – it adds a lot of action to the trick, which will help raise his state of arousal. You can see that after a few minutes of high rate of reinforcement, the state of arousal drops because the food is passive. Making it more active will help!
So do one more session with the food visible in your hands, making it more active. Then try a session with the food in your pockets! And also do the same with toys 🙂 Let me know how it goes!
T
Hi!
Posting the full session is fine, it is good to see the before-during-after for the purposes of this class. You and Fever did a great job with the handling!Looking at things behaviorally: the transitions are critical for him. When you are talking to the instructor, he is tugging for a long while then eating cookies for a long while… so he never really gets to relax and look around. His state of arousal drops in that moment, which is fine – but then you were sending him right back into the sequence, which directly correlated to the disconnections.
The engaged chill will help you not have to tug for as long (30 seconds of tugging is tiring!) or feed for as long and then before you got back into the sequence – play a bit of volume dial game! Get him pumped up, assess his state of arousal with action tricks. and when he is ready, send him into the sequence. Dudley was suggesting a couple of tricks after he disengaged, which is correct – move the tricks up to happen before you work the sequence, especially after getting a few minutes of instructor feedback.Also… where is the friz? The presence of the friz totally helps increase arousal, so I highly recommend it during seminar work where the sessions are long.
Onwards to tricks!
T>> alprazolam PRN
Ah, Xanax LOL! And PRN – as needed. Have you considered a daily pharm to balance his chemistry, in conjunction with the other stuff? The ‘better living through chemistry’ side of dog training is INCREDIBLE nowadays!
T
Thank you for the history! Great stuff! Some comments and questions for you:
When he screams with excitement while other dogs are running – how does he do if he runs next? Have you ever tried that?
>> alprazolam PRN
I’ll go do a google search but – what type of med is it? SSRI?
You have a really good grasp of things that are anxiety-related distractions. When the pattern games are installed with the neutral distractions, we will work on the anxiety-inducing distractions.
>>He is somewhat of a target by other dogs- when I pull him out of his crate, often other dogs growl and lung as we walk by at their crates
When that happens, what do you do?
>.small tugging for a toy and head to the ring.
Does he tug on his leash?
>>At this point, I’d like to raise his arousal walking in and wanting him higher to run. He’s very engaged going in and gets higher as we run but I don’t want the little bit of nervousness that happens prior.
Based on what I am reading here, I agree, he can come up into a higher state which should be more optimal (which is why I asked how he does in a run after screaing LOL)
>>Waiting on a station at a busy trial makes him very nervous.
If I had to guess, I would say that the stationing at a trial puts him in a state of arousal on the lower left side of the Y-D bell curve, which is the low arousal where external distractions become more obvious (like other dogs) – then the internal arousal shifts to anxiety which zings him across the bottom of the bell curve to the lower right side – which, per the science, is still “low”. So “higher” is definitely something to play around with. It defies the agility conventional wisdom, which emphasizes calming and control… but conventional wisdom is not always *actual* wisdom and sometimes it is just a bunch of baloney LOL! So we will play around with different things. Onwards to videos!
T
Good morning!
Have fun with Becca! So cool that she comes to your area once a month!!
>>One question I have is how to get him nutty without negativity affecting the other dogs waiting to run
Good question! I don’t think it will be a problem – there is always a way to do it without being a distraction to others 🙂 A lot of the action tricks and tugging and jazzing up will have him close to you (and not leaping around near other dogs) so distance will be your friend 🙂 You can keep yourself a little further from the ring and the crowd if you think other dogs will struggle (gate stewards are fine with that as long as they know you are ready :)) And most of the really wild stuff will happen when you are next dog or heading to the line. When I am running in Novice, I will delay a little to make sure the previous dog is fine. But in Masters, it is not an issue – Masters dogs are pretty focused 🙂 I like to communicate this when I am running in Novice – I will tell the gate steward that my dog might be noisy, so I want to be polite so Iwill wait a heartbeat til the other dog is fine and secured – and so far, everyone is fine with it 🙂
In the tricks-from-pocket video – really interesting! There was a definite dip in criteria when he didn’t see treats at first (I think he even pawed your cookie hand LOL!) – we saw slower responses, looking around a little. This is all good – he wil get better and better as he learns that there will still be a lot of reinforcement even if it is not visile and not part of the cue. You were GREAT about continuing to reward all.the.things even if the behavior was slower or not as explosive as it would be if cookies were in your hand. He seemed to have the hardest time with the backing up, so that is something to reward even the tiniest bit of behavior. His touches and spins were still pretty strong, and that is good to know!
FASCINATING that at the 2:30 mark he took off and barked! That is a big insight into Twister: he has trouble controlling arousal when the reinforcement is not present. As soon as you started moving he came back to focus, and at 3:00 you put your hand in your pocket – and he was back to engagement even though the barking dog distraction was still there.
3:48 – good job waiting and letting him process that sit cue rather than helping him, so he was able to do it and get rewarded.
When you have a free minute or two, do this game more but with shorter incremenets – do 5 tricks, then be done. He says it is a REALLY hard game 🙂 so the shorter sessions can help build up the mental stamina.
Pattern game 1 –
what was he looking at at :21ish on the first video? He did a good job offering engagement! The smell of the treats and something outside (some noises or something in the distance) offered a good distraction moment here and there, and he came back to offering engagement each time.Try this game with dropping cookies on your feet now 🙂 And try it with 2 toys 🙂
And when you go to the seminar this weekend, try this as you wander around outside the ring (you can be pretty far from it if other dogs are running). You can use really big chunks of cookies so he can find them easily – and let’s see how he does with the big agility distraction 🙂
Great job! I am looking forward to see the next steps and hearing about how the seminar goes 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Good work here! He definitely loves the threadles, the vortex was a real thing! I don’t see the vortex thing cropping up as an issue at trials, only in training, probably because in trials or on a bigger courses the dogs land longer on the jump before a serp, so the serp is much easier.In these training sessions, moving the start wing was good training to help set up the serps. Also, you can angle the serp jump a little so the front of the bar is more visible (then angle it back to the flatter line for threadles). And supporting it with a little extra body language like you did here was great. I also use a threadle arm that is different from the serp arm for this anti-vortex reason – I know we are emphasizing verals but that threadle arm versus no threadle arm can be clarifying for the dog.
Early in the session, I think you had some extra wrap verbals on the wing before the serp, so it might have been a little confusing to him – but you moved to really strong clear correct use of the verbals and he was REALLY starting to get it by the end. Very cool to see him getting both with you running! YAY!!
>> This needs some more sessions! I do feel like he really gets the threadle, just not the serp as much.
Yes, it is a hard one, so you an add more sessions – you can help with the serp early in the session to help remind him that life is not all about threadles LOL!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
Backside slices – she did really well here! I think the main reason she got the backsides was that you were also running to the entry wing. So to really solidify the verbals, let’s change your motion line so you don’t have to step to the entry wing. The line you move along for the backside and the front side cues should be basically identical, so she differentiates based on the verbals and not the footwork.Start by having her line up at your side, facing the jump (a cookie lure to get her into position will help and so is holding her collar so she faces forward but doesn’t start without you LOL!) so you can face your feet to the line you will be moving along. You can lay a leash on the ground to give you the visual of your line of motion so you are not using a handling cue for this, just verbals – then say the backside verbal and let go – you will move straight forward, parallel to her line to the backside but not converging in towards her to push her out to the backside.
This will help with the 2 questions she had in this session – one was the front side when you asked for the backside at 1:35 – that was a line up where she was not facing forward and you let go before you started the verbal, so she drove to what she was looking at.
The other question she had was some bar dropping – that was mainly because you were center of the bar as she landed and stopped to throw the reward. If you are moving forward more and less towards the entry wing, it will be easier to get out of the way so she has a better line to the landing spot.On the serp versus go video:
A couple of ideas to help her sort this out!
Because this game is so hard, slow down your motion but don’t rotate or stop to help. You were either running, or stopped/deceling, or rotated 🙂 Split the difference and do it at a sloooooow walk but with no foot rotation or change in pace. The running was definitely stimulating on the first side!The other thing to play with is extending and softening the volume of the lef/right turn verbals. The LEFT! LEFT! for example was the same volume and tone as the GO GO GO so it is possible that she thinks that it is a forward cue. So try a quieter, more extended leeeeeehft leeeeehft and see how she does comparing it with the GO GO verbal.
When you changed sides, the serp was really good… but the Go disappeared. Either that is a stronger turning side for her, or the dog walk behind you was a tremendous visual draw so she was driving into it. Try that side with nothing else around and we will see what she does 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
1st video – does she have barking on cue? It is a great focus trick (sounds counterintuitive, I know) so you can totally shape it to get it on cue. I mention it because she was, um, offering it at the beginning LOL!!
The instant focus ‘get on the thing’ worked great! She has an extensive history of shaping and that is working in your favor for sure! It is fine that she wanted to sit on it – any interaction will be fine when we apply it to the next steps. You can work this shaping to build up the value in a variety of different places to help be ready for the next steps 🙂
2nd video – remote reinforcement: I agree, really interesting video! I love watching her work!
I like how she was moving away with you – because you were moving towards a jump, I think she was also associating it with a jump and was about to offer something on the jump (or weaves later in the video). You can use your remote reinforcement marker sooner, after that first or second step.
The “I’m outta here” with the toy is a sign of the difficulty of the game, I think – as well as staying with the toy and then bringing it toy you LOL!!! Clever hahaha.
So you can change the setup slightly to have the toy (and even cookies with it) up on a chair so it is easier to move away from (not right down on the ground) and reward more of that first or second step away (ping ponged with 3 or 4 steps away).
The other thing you can do in this game is to reward with a cookie after she gets the frizzer, so there is an interval between taking the friz back and the next rep of a relatively challenging game. So it would be frizzer, get it back, give a cookie, start the game, mark and go back to the frizzer, play, cookie or two, then the next rep 🙂 And of course you can do this with treats too – I do it in my house with a cup of treats on the kitchen counter (I show the dog where it is) and move into the next room – then run back for a treat 🙂
Great job here! The remote reinforcement is going to be helpful for her 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Thank you for the history! Really helpful!
It sounds like teaching her the ‘cooler’ game has helped because she is understanding more about how to earn reinforcement in the ring! When reading your history, that was my main thought: we need to teach her the remote reinforcement concepts and that will really help! This also explains why she struggles to do tricks, for example, when there are no cookies visible 🙂 We will break down the concepts and build them up! For now, at trials, don’t ask for weaves and if there is an error, just keep going rather than fix anything. That can help her remember the joy of running fast with no pressure. If you have USDAA or UKI in the area, you can enter speedstakes or USDAA jumpers – no weaves in those classes, great spacing and lot of fast running 🙂
On the video:
I totally see how she was not super perky with the cookies not visible at the beginning, but then perked up and got more into it when she realized that there were, in fact, cookies as a possibility 🙂One thing about criteria when working without reinforcement clearly visible to her: if she is not quite as good with the trick as she would be if the cookie was in your hand, reward it anyway 🙂 Lowering the criteria a bit can help her work through the question of “where is my cookie!”. For example, I love barking on cue as a focus trick – so if she doesn’t bark as well as she would if the cookie was visible, you can totally reward a half bark LOL! Same with tricks like spins or the line up – if it is roughly correct, you can reward it 🙂 She will get better and better about doing tricks without obvious treats – you can do it in the house, with a cup of cookies on the counter nearby, to get even more practice with it 🙂 Try to get one session a day of this, just tricks for tricks that come from pockets or a cup on a counter 🙂
Take a look at the remote reinforcement game – let’s get started with that too, it is going to be a big piece of the puzzle for her 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>> I think these particular games help bring her energy UP, and would be reassuring in a stressful environment, but they aren’t really much help in the getting to the line.>>
Well, yes and no in terms of being helpful for getting to the line – while you can’t actually use food in a trial ring like this, you can use it in training to help change things up. Plus, they change her perspective on the entire environment in terms of conditioned emotional response and assessing distractions, which can totally help with the final steps to the start line 🙂 And we will be transitioning many of these games into versions that can be played without food or toys, which totally can be used in the final steps to the line.
She did well with the training here! Very clever to use the bathroom instead of being caught in the rain LOL!!
The get it version with tossed treats is going really well, easy peasy! And it is intended to be easy 🙂
When you went to the food on your feet, try to let her re-engage before you give the cookie marker – I looks you were early on the cookie marker in that she had not chosen to re-engage before you said cookie and dropped the treat, so it was more of a cued recall than a decision to re-engage. It will feel a little delayed and that is fine.With the ‘get it’ version of the game, try it in a new location and if she is happy to re-engage (I am sure she will be), you can add a simple, neutral distraction off to the side for her to assess. And you can also, in a smaller space, use t he cookies on the feet, as an ‘up and down’ where she looks down for the cookie then up at you, then down for the cookie, then up at you, without moving away to get it. That is so we can establish that pattern to be used in the smaller tighter spaces near a start line.
One thing on these pattern games (and when you added the bowls) – be ultra consistent within the games about where the reinforcement is going to come, so try not to mix the get it, cookie on the feet and snack in the bowl all into one game – the predictability of the reinforcement is part of the magic here 🙂
She has a good history with the bowls (yay!) so now let’s shift the emphasis to hands-only on these (fading the bowls and mats) so that we can transition these games to be used without food or props from the ring entry to the start line 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>She has been doing 8″ at class, but I think it’s probably time to start moving it up a little – the space is a square, but quite small and the matting is Comfort King, but not the same as at OTR (more like Fusion if you have been there) and I do see her slip sometimes.>>
If there is any potential of slipping, only move the height up on straight line stuff (unless there is slipping on that too). Otherwise, wait for more height until you can be at OTR or outside.
>> She’s 16 months now, so probably safe to start adding some height.
Yes, it is a great age for that!
>>The smiley face – I froze like a bunny and could not get my words out half the time, so that’s why you don’t hear them!
The medical diagnosis for that behavior is “Young Dog Panic Syndrome”. I have it as well. LOL!
>>It has warmed up and things are starting to melt – in a few days I may have a space close to the house where we can do something which is SO exciting.>>
Perfect! Onwards to spring weather and green grass!!!
T
