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Nice job on both of these sessions! It was smart to not change any other elements when there was a new variable (husband walking & talking) in the first video. She seemed very confident on those reps except when the toy was right near the board: that distracted her and then she was surprised when the board slammed. But she recovered well (and you moved the toy away :)) It gives us insight into how a distraction might draw her focus away, so we can use that to add some distractions later on in training.
The second session looked great, and she was a good girl on her first teeter!!! She definitely gave you that look of “what the,.. was that correct??” Ha! But you had a big party and that was perfect. It was hard to see if a target was there or not – if not, you can definitely have on there as it will give her a strong focal point to get into end position (she loves end position :)) and if needed, it can even have pre-planted PB on it! I don’t mind a bit of a prompt for now because it is easy to fade out .
Great job here! Future sessions will look similar to this 2nd video, with more visible target and even some yummies already on the target: and then after the full teeter, let’s see how she feels about it by asking her if she wants to do another normal elevator game. That will give us an idea of how many reps we can plan for and how many full teeters we can ask for,
Tracy
Hi! The first rep was really good – and then he stopped a little shorter on the other reps. I think what is stopping him a little shorter is that his head is coming up to watch you (there are a lot of years of reinforcement history on that). So to keep convincing him to look down to the end of the board and not look at you until he has arrived in position and the board is on the ground, two things to help:
first, leave a small bit of the visual target on the board, mainly to really solidify the habit of head-down on the board (don’t look at da momma!)
second, most (or all) of the reinforcement can be thrown back to him to land right at the bottom of the board where it meets the ground. If the placement of reinforcement is always there, he is very likely to look there. If the placement of the reinforcement is from you hands, he is more likely to look up at you – and considering the reinforcement history, it will take more rewards to convince him that the reward is not coming from you hand 🙂 so you can throw a cookie or a toy back to him 95% of the time to really shift his focus down to the end of the board and keep him driving to the very end of it.Let me know if that makes sense! He is doing really well so this ‘keep your head down’ is the last piece of the puzzle 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
A couple of ideas for you on this to help maintain the drive all the way across the board:
I think the most important part for him is the predictability of the teeter in terms of what is going to happen, how to earn reinforcement, etc. There was some unpredictability here and that was causing him to think more than we want.
>>I starte with the bang game
He did well on that, but the bang game and the elevator game should look more different than here: you were holding the board which means the elevator is coming, with all of the distinct steps. But instead you dropped it and cued the target position, which can be surprising (and cause dogs to start over-thinking, and slowing down). So try to always have one end propped up and no hands on the board for the bang game (hold him next to you) – versus if your hand is on the board, always do the elevator game. It makes it incredibly predictable which is good!
>> then did the crazy elevator game,
You can add a little more speed into it but not getting as far ahead, letting it drop more and then catching it – it is possible that being there too soon and already holding it is causing him to decelerate a little early? Especially is food rewards are not the main thing right now 🙂
>> then the full teeter. Still not extremly driving to the end but it was, okay. I’m guessing with the arousal of a trial environment it will get faster???>>
>>I tried to get his arousal up by doing a little mini course and well, that made things worse. He stopped in the middle of the teeter.
Yes, more arousal will get more speed, but I also think being more predictable will get it. When he stopped in the middle at 1:05, I don’t think it was because there was more arousal – I think it was because you were sooooo far away and behind him. Note how he drives onto the teeter then stops and looks for you. His frame of reference at this stage is you being ahead and close, so those were two big changes that were too big (Stark does not like changes on the teeter LOL!!!).
So in the interest of gradually adding in those changes, you can be a little lateral (a couple of feet) but ahead. And separately, be very close and behind (like doing the rear crosses from a wing wrap) – doing that from a tunnel is hard because he can’t see you til he hesitates and says “where did da momma go??” And try to add only one variable at a time so it is all gradually introduced.
>> I had a couple of pieces of chicken left so I ended with a crazy elevator game with chicken and then a quick release.>>
Perfect!
You can also continually work the One Hit Wonder concept at all stages of teetering. When he is starving for his dinner, do one rep of tunnel to teeter and his full dinner will be the reward. That really keeps the teeter high in value!
>>So, I am wondering…… with my paps, I put a spoon/measuring cup on the end of the teeter and they got rewarded for running to the end and driving down while I was away from the teeter. I am thinking this may not be a bad idea for Stark.>>
If his 2020 target still visible there? If not, it is fine to put it back in because it will really help him drive forward.
It is possible that the spoon attached to the board will help, but it also would need to be in the right spot to be able to get the 2o2o position after it lands – so you can play with a longer spoon or something that he might be able to reach when he is on the board and still step into 2o2o. Introduce it in the bang game with a tiny bit of tip so he is not surprised.
The other thing I think will help is a high value reward target placed about 4 or 5 feet from the end of the board, to serve both as a focal point and a reward. So his disc or a Manners Minder or something can be out there. And when he hits his 2o2o position, you can release to it (regardless of where you are). That can help maintain drive to the end of the board and also help him NOT feel the need to look for you as he is doing the teeter (looking for you slows him down). As with everything else, introduce it in the bang game so he knows the concept before adding the full teeter.
>>We are doing a teeter tour this Thursday to Paige’s house and I need to set a game plan for Stark. I only rented the ring for 30 minutes. I don’t need all that time to do his teeter.>>
Let his response guide the way, and it is fine if he does not go across the full teeter yet. All games should have a target visible (or if you try the reward out ahead, a target AND the reward out ahead. Start with the bang game with a target, do a couple of reps. Then take a break, and assess. If he is concerned? Come back to another rep – lower the tip and increase the value. If he is happy and likes it? Try some regular elevator game reps. Then take a break and assess when he is concerned or if he is fine.
The goal is to stop asking for teeters 50% SOONER than you are tempted to do so. Tempted to do 10 reps? Cool…. force yourself to stop at 5. Teeter tours are the ultimate in human self-control because nothing good comes from doing too many. You can spend the rest of the time doing weaves and other stuff 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>We did a dusk session split into two mini sessions.
He started off really well here, definitely a better time of day (in terms of temperature) for him – although by the last 2 reps, he was toast. To really encourage the speed and striding, you will probably have to limit to 3 or 4 reps total when it is hot out – he needs a lot of “oomph” to get the striding, and he does not have that when he gets hot. So the sessions can be dramatically shorter but the quality will be dramatically higher in terms of striding.
2 other questions, since he struggles to stay balanced and often criss-crosses his front feet: how often do you do low cavalettis (and circular cavaettis) and sideways walking? And, have you ever done zig zag grids with him? Those can all help him bend better without crossing his front feet over.
>> I have the tug toy and the MM placed.
I think it worked well! Have the MM as far away as possible so that he doesn’t decelerate towards the end of the poles to get to it. You can also start him from a tunnel to get more ‘giddy up’ on the way to the poles without you having to start near him or start him from a stay (stays are giddy-up-reducers in this scenario).
>>For the second session, we were having some handler mounting issues. Not sure why that popped up today, but since YouTube feels the need to ask me if my videos are safe for kids, I edited it out. Plus it’s just not a great look for me.>>
LOL!!! He might have been over-stimulated and also a little mentally depleted at that time of day.
>>I opened poles 8-11. He’s still trying to sort striding out. I’m hoping once I start putting weaves in full sequences he will have more momentum. I’m not getting much out of him yet. I get he’s being thoughtful but I feel there’s a lack of enthusiasm.>>
I think having the last few poles a little more opened up helped to raise the success rate, which is going to be a big contributor towards more speed. I don’t think he is lacking in enthusiasm… I think he is lacking in understanding of how to push from his rear and split his front feet while staying balanced. The ‘staying balanced’ is where he is having the most trouble: he is striding a few poles then falls out of balance then criss crosses his front feet and then regains balance. So striding games away from the poles (see above) as well as core and plyometric work will really help.
>>One thing that was an issue prior to starting this class was drive by if he had momentum. What would be the best way to handle running past the poles should the issue return?>>
Add in starting from a tunnel at this stage, I think he is ready for that (but bear in mind that more running = more heat = fewer reps to keep him cool). And if he fails once, I call back, send him back through the tunnel, start again. And if he fails twice, I open up the poles a little bit to where he can be successful, then try again with speed. I don’t want to take the speed out in favor of tighter poles because it is really important that the dogs learn to get the poles with a lot of speeeeed 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> It’s a constant struggle for us because we live in the south. He loses motivation when he gets hot. In agility he can stay level headed, but herding in the summer, he loses his brain.>>
This is pretty common with Border Collies… you can have a baby pool right near wherever you are working (or a hose) and then after every rep, do a pool or hose moment. It might make the training session a little less efficient but it will be more effective, overall, because he can stay cooler 🙂
Hi! He did really well on these, they are super hard!
He is doing a great job of keeping his head forward while weaving. When he was weaving towards the tunnel he was really strong – my guess is that the tunnel provided a focal point going that direction and there was not a focal point going the other direction. So when he is moving the other way, you can start by having a jump or tunnel as the focal point (and break it down like you did) and then eventually fade the focal points in each direction for the times when there will be nothing visible straight ahead.The only other suggestion is when you are cuing the weaves on your left side – let him get past you to make the entry. There were a couple of reps where you were moving too soon so he didn’t quite read it. When you had a moment of letting him get past you, he was able to get it really nicely 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHere is more about the lap turn and the tandem turn:
https://agility-u.com/lesson/handling-game-rocking-horse-turn-aways-2/
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>> Last week you told me not to point so much; this week you’re telling me to point more! Which one is it?! >>
Sorry for any confusion! On sends, you can totally use your arm and leg to indicate where you want her to go (and these lateral lead outs involve a send to the jump). The difference is that when she is behind you, you will want to send with connection: that means your arm is low, you and kinda rotated to face her, and she can see your face (connection). the ‘no pointing’ thing is when we disconnect from the dogs when they are behind us and point forward ahead of them: when we do that, the dogs only see our backs (no connection) so they lose the line and are not sure of whether they should cut behind us or stay on the line. So the ‘swoosh’ of the lateral sends are more connected and rotated back to the dog and not pointing ahead.
let me know if that makes more sense or if I need more coffee 🙂
>> This is a good reminder for me. There is a tendency for me to want to get a lot done because of the limited availability of using space/other people’s yards. One thing to mention here is that the videos are often pared down, cutting out a lot of the down time, and in some cases there are 5-10 minutes between tries. Is that a long enough time or should I be letting more time elapse?
Depending on the skill, usually 5-10 minutes is plenty of a break. So it can be 2 minutes on for training, then 5-10 minutes off. And the break time gives me a moment to figure out what I liked about the session and what I did not like and want to change. That will work for sessions where there is not a lot of jumping or weaving or contacts or heavy brain work.
For training work that’s physically and mentally harder (weaves, real jumping, teeter, a-frame or dealing with triggers) that can really only be done in one short session or every couple of days. That way the dog’s brain and body don’t get overworked. it does take longer for us to get those things trained because we have to limit training time, but that is fine 🙂
>> Yes, so many words, and so many things to keep track of! I could barely keep in mind what the course was that I was supposed to be doing.>>
I feel that pain LOL!!! It gets easier as you get used to it all, and the practice like you did here will really help!!
>> I didn’t get to the ones with like 11 steps. How am I supposed to remember all of that?
Ha! I am not going to lie: it is hard! But it will actually feel easier when she is on real courses because she will have to jump: you will have hang time while she is jumping and more yardage, so there is more time to do things like think and breathe 🙂
>>I did walk the course like 10 times before I tried it with Ria so that definitely helped!
Good for you!!!! Walking the course is a huge part of it.
>> The owner of Wholistic Hound came through at one point and commented on how many verbals I was using, that I was repeating them for a single behavior,
They are actually not cuing a single behavior, they are cuing a sequence of behaviors (which involves leaving you, committing to the wing, turning, driving back, and all of the physical coordination required to do it. So a wrap verbal on a wing is a far more complex series of events than, say, a sit or a down.
There are a few more reasons why we repeat the cue, with the most important ones being to cover our bases with the timing (otherwise you will have to deliver it once, and perfectly on time: which is impossible for all of us to do consistently), to break through the arousal of running the course so the dog can process the verbal, and to match the ‘energy’ of the behavior and help propel or collect the stride.
>>and wondering if that was causing Ria confusion/over-excitement.>>
I don’t think the verbals were causing any issues. The connection and teaching her to have more value for wing commitment will totally help sort out her questions. For example, remember how a few weeks ago she was having a little trouble with tunnel commitment? You have really added value to that and now she looks great 🙂
>> When you do the tandem turns when she has to come into you then turn away on the wing, you can pretend there is a cookie in your hand (or you can actually have a cookie in your hand LOL!) and draw her in then turn her away with big hand motions. Those hand cues will be pretty slow so she can read them clearly as they are pretty hard.
>>>Hmmm…I guess I’m not sure which turns these are and/or what you mean. It’s probably perfectly clear to a more experienced handler, but I don’t quite understand.
On the wing that was closest to the camera here, when she had to come in next to you then turn away to go around the wing – that is a tandem turn. You can also see them in the turn aways games. They are a pretty complex move because they are not natural for the dog to do, so we have to be more careful to cue them (dogs like to turn towards us, not away). I will go grab the links for the specifics and then it will make more sense 🙂
>> It’s probably perfectly clear to a more experienced handler>>
The name is clearer to more experienced folks, but the move is still really hard 🙂
I will be right back with the links to more of the tandem turns!
T
Wow, that looked GREAT! Lovely timing here. The only bad news is that she picked up even more speed so you will end up having to move faster when you are back to running LOL! That is actually good news too haha!!!
You can also work the tandem turns where you are turning her away while you are moving forward/parallel to the line. I think those can be done at a walk while your foot is recovering. And this is also a great opportunity to add some more distance to race tracks and tunnel sends – you can basically hang out in the middle, moving at a walk, and see if you can get her to commit to the wings and tunnels (and throw the rewards :)) She is a speedster so distance will be very helpful!
Great job here!
TracyHi! She is definitely making progress! But she still has questions about the new position. I do think she likes it a lot better than the down, though!
One thing that will help is if the target is closer – put it on the 2nd brick past the end of the board here. It was 4 or 5 bricks away from the end, which encourages her stretching way forward, which translates into stepping off the board with her back feet. Have it closer so her front feet are just off the end of the board will help her be more anchored into position and stay on the board better.
She was doing a great job staying on the board, especially towards the end of the video. Before moving the targeting to the teeter, I want it to be more independent of your body motion. I think by starting with her here and putting the reward on early, it was a good start but we need to fade it out so your body language is uninvolved with the behavior.
So while still on the plank, start a little further back from the end and send her to the target position while you stand completely still. You can move forward to reward after she has hit position and is holding it. Driving ahead of you while you don’t move will also emphasize her looking forward to the target, so we are hitting 2 things by having you take out all of your motion.
The other thing to add is having her wait on the plank, you move away from the board and stand still laterally or way out ahead… and cue the hit it cue so she can move into target position while you are stationary out away from the board. That also creates independent understanding while taking any dependence on your body position out of the picture.
That might take one session or a few sessions (this particular training has really no concussion on the dog’s body so we can do lots of short sessions). And then you can add motion back to it if she has a really high success rate.
The good news is that as soon as the behavior is “ready”, it will be easy to put on the teeter because she is confident on the teeter and has seen the other games. So I am not in a rush to put it on the teeter until it is fabulous on the plank 🙂
>> When is the last day for posting videos? – I am hoping I can continue these games in the next Max Pup course>>
The last day here is May 31. The next class for her is CAMP. You did the next MaxPup class already, back in December (putting it together). I will check to see what you have registered for, and if you haven’t registered yet – it should be CAMP 🙂 If you already registered for the next MaxPup, I can switch things over.
Nice work here! Let me know if the targeting ideas make sense!
TracyGood morning!
>> I wasn’t sure if you meant for her to get rewarded after the 6th pole for all of the reps or not – so I started off rewarding after the 6th, then tried having her weave the 2nd set before rewarding. >>
Ideally, we would reward the first couple of sets after pole 6 and then reward after pole 12, so what you did here was correct. The visual distraction of poles 7-12 was hard for her, and I think the frisbee might have been too exciting (especially in that first session). She was sorting it out by the end of the 2nd video here, but you can try a lower value toy on the next session (because the frisbee is exciting and also means run run run LOL!) or even meatballs. I think she will figure out pretty quickly, then you can move the bases closer together. Each time the bases go closer together, I think the first session should use the less stimulating reward so she doesn’t try to rush to get it – then when she is successful, the frisbee can come back out 🙂
>> I am wondering when this course finishes
This one wraps up on May 31 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
>> Probably because that is a weakness of mine and I don’t know how to really teach it. LOL>>
You can play the threadle game I posted, it is pretty easy 🙂 I think he will do fine with them.
“ serping across the exit from ahead” do you have an example of that?>>
They are sprinkled in throughout the games – especially on the channels with the handling challenges: basically you have to get way ahead of the dog so you can cross to the other side of the poles after poles 6 or 12 but keep him on your same side (think of poles 12 as a jump and you are serping on the landing side of it).
>>Did Electra pick them up pretty easy?>>
Yes, she seemed to find them pretty straightforward and so far has done well transferring them to new places 🙂
T
Hi!
>> WHen does the course end? And can you remind me about the number of videos we can post each week? Is it 2 maximum? >>
It ends on May 31. And you can post 3-4 videos of 2-3 minutes each, each week.
T
Hi! Super nice session here 🙂 He is a weaving machine now! And Kevin’s narration cracked me up when you messed up a little LOL!
Stark did a great job weaving with the rear crosses, with lateral distance, etc. Really nice! The only difficulty had nothing to do with the actual weaves: it was getting him to take the backside you wanted. When he went straight, he was reading your parallel motion (there was not come hither cue at the end of the poles) so he was correct. On the first rep where you added rotation, you were a little late doing it and then you were running backwards… and backwards motion reads as forward motion so he took the jump LOL! On the reps where he was successful, like at 1:59 – you were rotated and stationary right before he finished weaving: perfect!
So it is really pretty cool that you can work handling timing and position while he is weaving, it means he really ‘gets’ the weaves. COOL!!!!!!! Now try driving ahead, serping across the exit from ahead, those extreme rear crosses… the crazy things we did when the poles were much easier 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi there!
This was a great session, makes me happy I peeked into the class after the drive LOL!!!! I couldn’t help myself 🙂
It ALL looked really strong and he seemed to really enjoy the rep where you had to do the blind after the tunnel and your pants off to get to the end LOL!!So…. onwards to adding in a full teeter. Do a warm up of regular elevator, one on each side. Then a couple of crazy elevators from the tunnel. If he is happy and successful? Do one tunnel-to-teeter rep where you do not catch the board. Be sure to give a nice early target cue and also move with him – but don’t race past or leave him at the end. Be chill. LOL!
And jackpot the behavior even if it is not perfect. If he looks cool with it, do one more crazy elevator game then be done with the session. If he looks surprised – just end the session.
I am excited! Can’t wait for the video!
Tracy
