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Good morning!
>> I’ve used a nose target with my big dogs for a long time and do like it so think I’ll just go back to that for my teeter 2o2o. If Nancy fusses at me I’ll survive >>
Ha! I mean, we teach it differently now (my nose touch teeter dogs are not required to do 50000 nose touches in order to get the reward and it is not a big press to the ground) but that extra layer of criteria has really made for some amazing , decade-long teeter performances! Caveat, though – not every dog has the structure for a nose touch in the front end assembly so I certainly don’t recommend it for all – my BW does more of a head bob because his forelimbs are so long that he would be really uncomfortable doing the nose touch. Ripley has the structure to do it if you so choose from what I can see in the videos 🙂
>>we haven’t done tons of it with super specific criteria as far as speed, distance or straightness.
That is good – with pups, it is far better to work on technique before adding anything else especially because they are still growing.
I like how he is using his back feet independently and methodically rather than flinging himself around 🙂 And the ‘destination’ helps keep him straight! Perfect!
And for now, I think it is fine to do this without toys because the form needs him to be very thoughtful. Eventually the toy play can come in to challenge him to be thoughtful while also in higher arousal (great for contact training and also great for warming up before running at a trial!)One small detail to help with form: He is using your hands (your right hand in particular because it is the magic cookie hand) as a focal point which is perfectly fine, except he is raising his head to do that. You can see his head is above his top line. Ideally, his head stays level to the top line or just below it. So any easy fix – I have no problem with him using your hand as a focal point; in fact I think it is really clever! So, let’s lower the focal point by having your hands lower. If your back will allow it, bend over so your hands are somewhere between his chin and his elbows. My back would allow 3 or 4 reps of that LOL! You can also do this with you sitting and hands in your lap. Or with you standing, you can place a bowl down as the focal point, with the cookie already in the bowl – you have enough stimulus control on the bowl and cookie, I think, that you can put the cookie in the bowl, cue the back up, then mark/release to the bowl.
>>Here we did backup to his Cato board flat, then to his wobble board with the edge propped on a low step then to his wobble board at a steeper angle.
All looked really good! You can add a little more motion to the wobble board if you like. For the wobble board at a steeper angle, my PT vets have all asked me to not going any steeper than you have it here – he was able to get his back feet in it while still in a natural, functional shoulder position. They don’t want the dogs to do any extensions of the shoulder with all those small, developing soft tissues by having the hind end higher up. The PT vets have all specifically requested that we NEVER do those Superman/handstand tricks with the dogs, so I pass that along in puppy classes 🙂
Great job! Have fun at the trial!
TracyGood morning!
>> Had the class in an uproar laughing because it was so funny and cute, but I was relieved he didn’t get hurt!
Yikes! I would have been scared too, we love his drive but we don’t want him to break himself!!
>>Video 1 – Tugging
>>Okay so don’t judge me but I had JUST finished my workout and Ronin was absolutely demanding to play so I figured it would be good opportunity to video some tugging. I would not normally video in just my workout clothes, but I’m getting too old to care what people think of how I look (I exercise so I can keep up with hubs’ activities >>Ha! No judgement here, have you seen what I am wearing in half of those videos? You look great! It is an online class rite of passage to post videos in workout clothes, unbrushed hair, and also pajamas LOL!!
>>I thought this was good but reaI was actually trying to tone down the tugging a bit and let him do the work without me moving the toy around too much and my vocals kind of followed suit. Is that okay or should I be more vocal? I also wasn’t sure if too much talking would distract him, but I guess that’s something I could experiment with as I get to know his likes and dislikes.>>
I think this looked great, you were plenty vocal and playful! You can keep adding in the gentle tapping of his sides to get him to pull back more (terriers love that and these little guys are terriers, right? LOL!) For getting the toy back, will he trade for another toy or cookie? Prying it out just builds more drive to clamp down on it 🙂 And when he does let go of it, you can offer the next toy from the pile. Or a boring cookie to see if he will eat it then get back on the toy, all good skills to have for future training.
Backing up:
>> One question for now though, is the backing up onto an object going to be mostly for the purposes of training a 2-on/2-off contact or for something else? I kind of want to know where we are going with that one in terms of backing up ON to something.>>
Good question! While backing up onto something is nice for a future 2o2o… I use it more for general back foot awareness and weight shift. My bigger pups only have a 2o2o on the teeter (the little one does a 4on for the teeter) and they run all the other things – I have found this backing up game to be super helpful for the running contact training which relies on specific placement of the back feet (and weave training and jump work and conditioning work and so on and so on – and also for back foot placement on the box turn for flyball!). So it is good for general body awareness even if you don’t want to do a 2o2o, and it can be applied a whole bunch of different places.
As you found, there are a number of ways to teach this and it looks like this method kind of ‘clicked’ for him! I went to this method because I couldn’t get my Papillon to back up with any other method I had used LOL! Because he is little, we really want to keep his head down – you can help him by keeping your hands even lower, almost dangling then so you can toss really low so the treat lands between his front feet – we want him looking down and not up, so reward placement will help him. Think of his front feet as a hockey goal and you are trying to flick the treat low into the goal.
Backing up onto the thing: I think he did his best when you started him really close to it so all he had to do was step back up onto it. You can also start him with all 4 feet on, lure his front feet off, and let him put his front feet back on (also great for a 4on teeter behavior!). Then build it up to all 4 feet off, so he steps his back feet on. He was really beginning to get it! He was also showing that it was difficult, by getting close to it but not ON it LOL!!! So keeping it simple for now will help – we don’t need distance on this skill at this stage, just understanding and body awareness.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> Hmm, about the only thing I have available is one of the cushions (about 2’x2′ and 4″ high) from an old couch that I use for some conditioning work at times. Other than that it would be a fit bone or use a couple of my smaller balance disks.>>
Perfect, couch cushions work? Or a folded up box or a bunch of towels… goats don’t cate what they climb on, so we don’t need to play goat games on dog-specific stuff LOL!! I think the balance discs and fitbones require a core strength and balance that a 16 week old puppy does not yet have, so do this with stable surfaces for another month or so with more limited interaction with unstable surfaces.
I >>just pulled a variety of different things together in the bucket to see what she would do. She actually likes tugging on the leash and tugs pretty hard on it, but it’s always been done when she is wearing it so not so it’s not bunched up. >>
Yes, she definitely said the context was way different with the leash.
>>Don’t have many long toys at the moment.
Shopping! Or, tie several toys together – a shorter toy to a longer toy.
>>I still don’t have a great idea of what types of tugs are more or less fun for her. Will try to build an order that offers more fun after less fun.
Because she likes movement, the longer toys that move more with the softer things to grab easily are at the top of her list at the moment. The toys that are harder to grab, smaller, with your hand right there… lower on the list at the moment.
On the videos:
Goat game wobble board:
This is a good set up! Get it for tossed treats and also having her go back and forth for the toy is fun for her too. Do you have a marker for when you want her back on the toy? I add in a “bite” marker. You can wait for her to offer getting back on the thing after the get it cookie rather than just smack the toy, so the toy is ,ore of a reinforcement of what she offers and less of a lure for this.
And, bear in mind that you can shape the whole session with the toy!2nd session:
Bear in mind that you do not need to make this harder each session. It can stay where it is for several sessions. She totally noticed the change in movement and got more tentative. So for your next session – just leave it here, don’t go down to 1 mat under it. My general rule with puppies is to get at least 2 sessions in a row of super high rate of success (90% or better of high level confident offering) before I change anything. She was starting to offer by the end here, but really only front feet because there was more motion. So don’t change anything on the next session, or you risk her beginning to overthink it. Instead, just do another couple of sessions like this til she is slamming it all around, then change something a tiny tiny bit. I think using toys only for this will be better than food- it is just more exciting and action-packed for her, so she moves more and thinks less 🙂Driving ahead session:
She did great with the driving ahead! Nice job being connected to her, releasing her when she was looking ahead, and she was great about driving ahead without any worry about your motion. SUPER!!!! Add more distance whenever you get a moment and have space to do it.
About the running off with the toy.. Bearing in mind that this is a drive ahead game and not a retrieve game: You don’t have to ask her to retrieve it, you can just get in there and play play play. You got to the toy with her then turned and ran away. By running away, you asked her for a skill she does not have and added failure to an otherwise great session on the skill you wanted to train. So when she arrives at the toy, reach in and play with her rather than ask for a retrieve. You were close enough to be able to do that here, she only ran off when you asked for the retrieve. If in the past she has taken off with the toy when you reached for it, then yes – make it a REALLY big toy by tying a bunch of toys together so she gets one end and you get the other. But even with a really huge toy or a toy on a line… don’t ask for a retrieve with this game, just play. The retrieve can be trained separately and that way you can build up both skills.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there! This was an insightful session! He wants you to help more by indicating; we want him to offer more so we don’t have to indicate as much 🙂
I think at the beginning he probably put himself in a stay (and a couple of other times during the session) so start with some play so that he doesn’t put himself in a stay or a cookie toss away (like you added later on).
You caught yourself with t he ‘yes’ marker 🙂 Correct, try to just say “bite” and not yes – we all have the ‘yes’ habit LOL! But the reinforcement markers will be more effective for training.
Tossing the get it cookie was great because it got him moving and so you got less of a stay behavior. It was interesting to see how much stay he offeredL stay and attention on your face. So, you can help him offer more as that will boost confidence and strengthen commitment even more!
Definitely more shaping is on tap so you can get him to offer movement without the stay he is offering. Do the shaping without a wing, do it on something random where there is potentially less value for a stay behavior – a box or a balance disc or anything random. Then we can easily slide the wing back into the reinforcement procedure, after you have established movement as part of it.By the end, he was totally starting to get it! Yay! He was still looking up at you, a bit suspiciously LOL!!! OK maybe not suspicious but definitely with questions. I think if you are sitting on the ground or on a low chair, he will be better with his head low and looking for the object and not at you.
Great job getting this started! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Thanksgiving was nice and quiet here 🙂 Hope yours was good too!
>> I’ve been rewatching the Week 2 videos this afternoon…and had to laugh when you talked about planning our sessions especially in light of your feedback on our session a few days ago. I really wanted to get some video for you and didn’t do a good job of planning, didn’t have a toy that we had been doing “Yours” with only the one that I usually throw ….. and there I am hanging it out in the air trying to figure out what to do with it! AHHHH!!!!! >>>
Ha! Planning, planning, planning – that is probably 90% of training and the “do” part if 10%. Good planning is the best rehearsal for a great session 🙂
>> somedays I’m pretty sure it’s a miracle that my dogs put up with me at all 🙂
Totally relatable. There are some days where I am so grateful that my dogs have things sorted out much better than I do LOL!
>> he loves Catch….I was thinking that we’d play it in front of a tunnel as well as it seems that tunnel starts are pretty common these days.>>
Yes! If you are going to do AKC agility, then you must work this in front of a tunnel. It is a popular design element! I have not seen it as much in USDAA or UKI but it is worthwhile to train anyway.
>>I had a question about the Placed Reinforcement application. In the video you are using Get it – your reinforcement word. When/how do you swap to the verbal that you are using the placed reinforcement to help teach?>>
In a nutshell… as soon as you have behavior that is pretty much the concept of what you want: name it before you give whatever cue is eliciting it.
Do you mean in the video where Hot Sauce (black/tan terrier with folded ears) is doing the 360 circle wrap with the ball on the ground? In that video, I was giving her verbal cue (digdigdig) as I was starting each rep – it is a quiet cue, and the get it is much louder (and jubilant haha).
So as soon as you can elicit the behavior with Sly? Slap on the verbal 🙂
If you mean the shaping video with Elektra (black/white small dog with stick-up ears) going back and forth around the wing with 2 toys – that was an early session and I wanted her to offer because I was not sure I would get the behavior, so no verbal yet there. Verbal could easily be tacked on though, because she was offering easily.>> One of our winter projects is to get serious about our various verbals for turns off his dogwalk. I’m planning on using his MM for a lot of it so this class is perfectly timed >>
It sounds easier than it is, but basically it is:
Establish the reinforcement procedure
Get the behavior within that procedure, eliciting it however you need to (I use a flyball jump on the line I want the dog to turn to after the DW, and the MM is out past the flyball jump :)).
When you can reliably elicit the behavior – add the verbal right before you elicit it. Then if needed, you can fade out whatever is used to elicit it.We can definitely be talking about the specifics of how to do this!
Tracy
Hi!
>> The part I don’t know how to do is “build in a lot of value for when you have to do a lot of turns and stopped obstacles in a row,” Do I do this with a remote reward by starting with one obstacle and then reward and then build up to two and three, etc. Or do I try to have places where I reward throughout a sequence with Loys of turns and stops?>>
Part of this is yes, build up a ton of reinforcement for the start and middle of sequences, especially on jumps and turns, and when you are initially moving away from the reinforcement.
And the other part is working to a very complete understanding of remote reinforcement particularly in a trial setting, so they can do 1-20 with speed and focus.More on both of these coming on Monday but for now, the main thing is the foundation remote reinforcement procedures where they can move away from reinforcement and even do a couple of tricks before you mark and run back to it.
>>PS I got a chance to try the flirt pole with both dogs on the agility field. I ran with it and I tried to make it look like a pray animal. They were not interested in the slightest. I think I am going to have to tryout inside when they are really bored and then maybe they will build an interest.>>
Will they play with it inside? And outside, did they chase it even a little? You can reward that tiny bit of chasing as a behavior: they do it, you then reward by whipping out a real high value reinforcement (food or a ball).
Tracy
Hi! The main difference is that the different markers will tell her where to look, what to do, where to be.
“You’re free” is not necessarily a reinforcement marker: it is a ‘release from the a-frame and carry on per the next cue’ verbal. It always means drive forward to something relative to you (you are physically and/or verbally providing the next cues). The ‘catch’ marker specifically means “that was correct, stay there, reward coming to you with me out here” and the use of it is that it builds value for being there at the bottom of the frame, while you are way ahead and moving past. The ‘you’re free’ release builds value for hitting target position, but in learning – everything between the marker (‘you’re free’) and the reward delivery gets built into the behavior – so with the release forward, you are potentially building in drive off the frame which is not what needs more value here… it is staying on the frame, right? The catch placement will help that value because it is all about “stay over there, reward is coming there” so she is less likely to want to anticipate and self-release.
Let me know what you think!
TracyThere is always a need to caffeinate!!
Send me the info by email when you have a moment!
Agilitydals@yahoo.comThanks!!
Hi!
>>okay for some reason all of my post controls are gone
That’s odd – sometimes if there is an internet glitch or something is slowed down, the site won’t load fully because it is big? It is working fine here so let me know if the glitch continues and I will send it to the tech guy.
>>I’m not sure I fully understand what you mean by this.
Wait, you want feedback AND you want it to make sense? That is crazy. HA! Jk.
>>In the early part of this session, you can totally keep moving so you and the reinforcement are not near each other and also so there is not a sudden explosion of motion when you add motion (that was part of the reason he went through the wing)>
You were moving to the wing, stopping, then accelerating quickly. Try to move at a steadier pace so you never stop, you can just fold in right behind his tail and keep moving the whole time. Let me know if that makes sense or if I need to caffeinate 🙂
>I hope you and your 2+fourlegged fam had a happy thanksgiving!
It was good, ran around outside then got back in pajamas, cooked, ate. Hope yours was good too! We should probably talk about the seminar dates in NoLa and see what we can make happen!
TracyThanks! I see what you mean! This is also a remote reinforcement issue – note how hard it was for him to move away from the reinforcement (outside the ring) in the beginning – that was really worrying him! He would get faster each time the course turned towards the exit.
And he totally picked up speed when he thought it was the real ending!
And this course was interesting too in that he was not fast on the slower section (the first half) where there were a lot of turns and a lot of stops (teeter, table) so the two of you never got to just run full out. As soon as you were able to run full out? He got really fast too. Interesting!!! So as part of the value building and remote reinforcement, and in classes – build in a lot of value for when you have to do a lot of turns and stopped obstacles in a row, so he goes fast even when you can’t go fast.
Le me know what you think! See you tomorrow in the Zoom!
TracyHi! Happy Thanksgiving!
He is so fun! This was a lovely session!!!! And he was really very focused in a pretty distracting area!!
He did really well here! Just a couple of suggestions:
in a high distraction area, you an let go of him as soon as the toy hits the ground, so he doesn’t have time to look away. Eventually you will be able to extend the duration of the focus forward with distractions but the immediate “giddy up” of letting go will help him not want to look away 🙂And be sure to work both sides so he is balanced turning left and turning right.
The toy play looks good! He seems very engaged with it and is bringing it back really well! There was one rep (first one with you running) where he looked like he was considering a victory lap with the toy but then he didn’t so it is possible the excitement of all the motion stimulated him 🙂 One of the things you can do is fade out running away to get him to bring it back – start with a bit of walking away, or backing up, all while encouraging him to bring it back – then have a big party when he does (you can have a big play with that toy or whip out a 2nd toy 🙂 ) That way we can build to having you stationary and he will drive back to you with it. in the situations where you are not running (not this game, there is a lot of running in this game LOL!!)
He did really well with you standing still and with you running. Yay! I think he is ready for more of the races now (posted last Tuesday) to get him to leave you in the dust even more 🙂
Great job here! He is terrific!
TracyHi!
>>we are past week 1 but there are a couple of week 1 things I haven’t had a chance to apply your suggestions (like the Send & Committment and wrap foundations in particular) and video tape. Can I still post short vids of those for feedback?>>
Yes, you can post as you train, you don’t have to be in any specific week.
>>She has seen this disk before but not in isolation. I had it surrounded by a bunch of my other disks and fit bones to just get her on them as she has a definite tendency only put her front feet up on them and then stretch across them rather them put her back feet up on them.>>
That was a smart way to start!
On the goat video – look at her happily working for stationary food! Yay! You can continue incorporating the tug early and often.
The disc is rather tall for a 16 week old pup to easily get her back feet on and then she doesn’t quite have the core strength to stay on it long (she is a baby dog) – do you have something flatter/easier so you can mark & isolate the back feet? I love that she offered her whole body on it, and we can keep looking at ways to make it easier and fun!
Plankrobatics:
Looking great! And she was a happy girl, working for food even if it was not moving. And yes, bringing the cheese out was really hard
You can also use get its on this, tossing the cookie rather than feeding in position so she gets her back feet on it without even realizing (as she trots across to get the tossed treat)
And you can release to tug rather than use food at all – when she gets back feet on, release to tugAny Toy game:
Probably easier on your back if you sit on the floor LOL! Or do you have any super long toys? Most were pretty small so your hand was right there – that red bone shaped one had your hand all right there so it was hard to find where to grab it – the one after it was much better! Nice and long with a big crunchy toy element. Stick with longer toys for now especially as she starts to teeth more.
In this game, you can also plan the order of toys to build value for the less exciting toys. Interaction with a less exciting toy can be followed (rewarded!) with more exciting toy. For example:
The leash was a definite buzzkill, she totally looked at it like “what the actualis this” LOL!!! So if you are going to whip out a boring thing like a leash, go right back to a super high value toy to build the value of the boringness haha! Backing up:
>>She is alo not much into using her back feet independantly yet, one of the reasons we have some issues with getting on things and especially doing the getting into boxes games.
Well, 16 weeks old… we are happy they are pooping outside at this age LOL!!! And hind end awareness is most easily built with food reinforcement that is a little ‘boring’ in presentation, so between her being a bit older and the food getting more interesting when it is not moving as much, I think she is now reaching the point that you will see more progress with hind end stuff.
On the video – this was all about placement of reinforcement! First couple of reps were really spot on, she backed up, head low. But the placement of reward had your hands a little high so by the time you got the reward tossed, it ended up being over her head and late so she turned around. And then… turning around got built into the behavior. She is smart and efficient: I mean, why back up when clearly the reward is for turning around!
In your defense: she is small and quick so you didn’t have a lot of time. We just need to adjust your mechanics. A couple of ideas (in no particular order):
– drop the “yes” marker and replace with a quieter get it – I think the yes is too stimulating and draws her attention up to you and your hands, which is part of the turning around. A quiet get it will help keep her head down and locked into the food being thrown low
– Your hand should stay low, at her nose level below your knees, the whole time. Don’t raise them back up to your knees, you don’t have time 🙂 And this will help buld in self-controL!
– with your hands staying super low, drop the first cookie between your feet with one hand, toss the reward cookie low and towards/between her front feet with the other to keep her head low and NOT have her turn around to get it – multiple treats in each hand will help this. By the time you drop then reload, it is too late – she has offered the backing up then you ended up throwing high so she turned around. You don’t need to throw the treat behind her, think of her front feet and the area under her belly as a hockey goal: toss the treat into the goal so she has to back up and not turn around to get it.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy>> She’s fun and the first of my Berners to be able to transition from food to tug and back again. Hope I can keep that going! I expect the more running I add, the more she will focus on me.
I love that she can go back and forth from food to toys! You can reward her tug release with a low value cookie, so she is quicker on the ‘out’ but that is not a high priority – keeping the tug drive really strong is a higher priority for now.
If you think she might look at you more when you are moving faster, you can go to a higher value toy and let her go as soon as it lands. And check out the game where if they look at us and we get to the toy first, we win! If you win, I bet she stops looking at you on the next rep LOL!
T
Hi again!
Another great session here with the Decel and turn. Berners have so much power that we need to teach her how to control it as she decelerates into a turn – she did a great job here!
She also has great food drive, I love it! Is she able to go back and forth between food and toys? If so, you can use food to help reinforce the out of the toy (she was not sure fast about giving it back in the previous video) but if the toy drive reduces when food comes out… then don’t introduce food into the toy games, we can build up the out by using toy rewards.The decels and pivots look super strong. She works so beautifully and is so physically coordinated that I had to keep checking that she was only 6 months old. She is so cool!!! 2 suggestions for you:
For the agility pivots, you can get your cookie hand lower (more down at your knee or just below your knee) to keep her head lower. This will translate to better turns and focus forward on the obstacles and not as much looking up at you (if you also train obedience where we would want her looking up more, you can feed higher).Her pivots looked awesome, very bendy!!! This was especially nice when she was on your left side (bending to her right) also really good without the cookie in your hand. Super!!! She is not quite as bendy to her left – she is good to the left and GREAT to the which just means she is a righty 🙂 and might also mean that you have worked her on your left side (turning to her right) more. So when pivoting to her left (she is on your right) go more slowly so she can work the bending mechanics, and be sure you are doing plenty of reps on that side. When she is in your left to turn to her right, your speed was really good and you can try to go a little faster on that side too!
Great job here! I think you can add more distance on this game too – throwing the treat even further away so she is coming at you with more speed and will have to work her deceleration a bit more.
Have fun!
TracyHi! Hope you had a lovely Thanksgiving!
>>Just sending one to be sure I did this correctly. If not, I’ll need to rent a 5 year old!>>
Ha! Totally relatable – My 5 year old niece is far more tech smart than I am.
She is SO FUN and I love her toy drive!!! Great job here with this session, you structured it brilliantly:
Great play, then you tossed it and watched her, and let before se looked back at you. PERRFECT! And your tugging with her is super fun, she is really engaged with you and the game.
When you added motion on the 2nd to las rep, she looked at you a little but then was fine on the last rep, driving ahead of you beautifully – so keep adding your motion and throw the toy further so you can really run. She is ready for you to move to the next step (posted last Tuesday) where you get to race her a bit 🙂 Also, this is a good game to take on the road – the more we can generalize it, the better! She seems pretty mature, mentally, for a 6 month old pup which is great because we will be able to add things really quickly.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
