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Good morning!
This is an excellent question! And kind of a long answer:
>>In the Week 1 segment on food rewards, you were adamant that we should say our verbal and then deliver/offer the food reward. But in the Week 1 segment on toy rewards, especially for the non-moving toy on person (bite), you seem to present reward and then say the verbal.>>
>>Why is the order of the steps different for food and toys? Shouldn’t they be the same when teaching from the beginning?>>The steps can be different for different types of reinforcement, because the definition of ‘clean’ mechanics is different with the different types of mechanics. And the mechanics of something like “snack” versus “bite” are very different even though both have the dog interacting with reinforcement in your hand.
One similarity is that in the learning stages, the food and toy must be stationary before the verbal marker- so that is why I was such a pain in everyone’s petunia to have the cookie in hand and NOT be moving before the marker. If the cookie is moving before the marker, then the dog is learning to cue off of your hand moving to your pocket or is looking at the cookie hand the whole time, rather than waiting for the marker. And cookies are easy to hold in the hand while you are doing something else in the training. For example, if you are using a ‘snack’ cue as the reinforcement procedure when training the dog to out a toy, mechanics are important because if the cookie is moving before the snacks cue (or whichever marker you will be using) then the hand movement becomes the cue or marker the dog watches for, rather than the behavior cue or reinforcement marker.
A high quality example of poor mechanics of moving the hand or the cookie first (before the marker) is that Hot Sauce’s cue to out a toy is not the verbal – it is my hand moving to my pocket, because I did too many reps of accidentally moving my hand to my cookie pocket before I said snacks when I was training her. OOPS!!! So, I accidentally de-valued my snacks marker because my hand was moving before the marker – so it is pretty meaningless to that particular dog because the reinforcement procedure that I installed there was about watching my hand movement. Double oopsie.
On the other hand, a toy that is big enough for a ‘bite’ cue is not easily held in a pocket or hand, and since we want it stationary for the dog to drive to, we must have it out there before the marker so, like with cookies, the dog is not watching your hand moving to your pocket or wherever the toy was placed.
The dog is aware of the presence of the food or toys in both of these, so having the toy present before the marker is fine here – note how the toy is not moving though, same as the treats not moving. It is present but the order of events is marker then toy. If the toy was moving before you said your bite cue, I would bug you LOL! When we are running the toy will be moving, but that is the nature of the devil in toy play which brings me to the next thing about toy mechanics being a little different:
2 more reasons why the toy mechanics and the food mechanics can and should be different in some cases have to do with how they are commonly used and also, self-preservation.
The ‘bite’ is very commonly used in training when the toy is already in my hand (because toys are so dang hard to stuff anywhere haha! And also because bite is often used to drive the dog hard into the handler and that needs to happen fast in ay training scenarios, so the toy cannot be tucked away somewhere). And also, the ‘bite’ mark is permission to come in ‘hot’ to the toy. So as we are training this, the toy already in my hand (but not moving) helps the dog focus on the target of the toy AND avoid biting my hands or belly or sleeve or anything that might be there when he is coming in hot for the toy.
An example of messy mechanics in toy play with bite marker is if the toy is stuffed into my armpit or down the back of my pants (2 places where I hold toys in training LOL!) and I say bite and THEN I start to get the toy out.. the dog is going to come in fast and hot to the moving hand (as he should) and at best, I will get a belly punch and at worst, my hand will get chomped. I am sure you know people who have dogs that have bitten them hard in toy play- this is due to the mechanics of the reinforcement procedures being unclear.
Also, more about how the reinforcement procedures are commonly used: in training the quick markers are important for placement of reinforcement and efficiency. If the bite toy is too far away (like in a pocket or arm pit) then it delays the placement and changes where the dog looks because it chains in the dog looking at our hands moving up or back to get the toy out. The reduces the efficiency and delays the timing of the reinforcement Treats are quicker to move around and easier to hold
So the ‘clean’ mechanics of teaching the bite cue have the toy out there already (but not moving around other than dangling a little) to help the dog know where to target his bite. Cookie in hand mechanics also have a ‘don’t bite me’ element and the stationary hand helps that too, but the actual puncture wounds are more likely to happen on the ‘bite’ cue
And lastly- there is a massive element of stealthy self-control on both snacks and bite markers. Basically, the dogs need to ignore the reinforcement and that is HARD but a good skill! So the cookie hand can be in position and not moving, and so ca the toy – in position and not moving. It is great for self-control for a toy-driven dog to learn to wait for a bite marker.
And bear in mind that for agility or any type of moving behaviors… also of these reinforcement procedures can be done while you are moving and while also trying to be as clean as possible with the mechanics. On the Installations 4 video posted today, I am running with the toy in my hand- then I say bite, then I unfurl the toy and the dog drives in hot for it. So technically the toy is moving the whole time, but he ignores it til the marker and then when he drives in at a run, he only grabs the toy and not any of my flesh 🙂
>>I’m struggling with this conceptually because Moonshot is great at getting a moving toy and then “outing” that toy on command, but I don’t think he understand in the stationary case when it is OK to take the toy, so I need to shape it.>>
To help him understand the complete behavior, you can split it a bit at first: have the engaging toy visible and stationary (you can start this with a bit of play to get him excited about the toy). You can hold his collar with one hand. Say your bite cue then let go: when he moves towards the toy, you can make the toy alive and play tug (be sure he moves first). The successive approximations can build up to opening his mouth for it, putting his mouth on it, grabbing it, pulling on it, etc. And each slice of behavior can be followed by the toy moving.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> As long as he doesn’t grab it in the middle of a run (has happened) we may be on to something
This is great news about tugging on the leash!
I agree – we don’t want him grabbing in the middle of the run but we have reinforcement procedures for that 🙂 It sounds like you can install the leash into the remote reinforcement foundation, so he learns that leash interaction is a cued behavior and not a ‘take it when you see it’ behavior LOL! And today’s new games can help build more tug value too! Have fun!
Tracy
Hello and welcome, of course I remember Paco! He is such a cool dog! And I am sorry to hear about Parker 🙁 and it sounds like Paco is still in mourning too.
>> So any input on how to get him more aroused about toys to even play these games would be appreciated. I have a multitude of different toys.
Your timing is perfect – I just posted a game to help build value for toys! You will see it in the package of games posted this morning here:
https://agility-u.com/course/au-039-reward/
You will want to use a favorite activity and a favorite reinforcement procedure (probably food-based, at this point) but it can really build up toy value!Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Easy is good! This is a great list!
So you can take a different approach- rank the value of the reinforcement based on how it changes her arousal 🙂 I know that working on getting behavior in higher states of arousal is high on your list, so we can look at reinforcement through that lens too. That can help us increase arousal in training to simulate trial feelings, and also utilize a ‘fight fire with fire’ approach to higher arousal in different environments.Tracy
Hi!
>>A question-Tali isn’t toy motivated. I really wanted a dog that would tug and be toy motivated. Any suggestions for a 11 month old? I don’t know if it’s too late. I’ve tried getting her interested with a moving toy around. She’ll follow and grab it a little, but won’t tug. Thanks!
It is definitely not too late! When she follows the toy and grabs it – what type of toy is it? I suggest playing with different types of toys to see if there is a specific types of texture she likes. Some dogs love long fur toys that you can drag on the ground and they can chase. Keep the toy low and moving to get her chasing it like a squirrel 🙂 Or, you can throw it – does she like balls or other thrown toys? The key will be to keep it moving away from her (not towards her) to get her chasing and grabbing for it, then you can build it up to more and more tugging. Also, do this separately from any place where food is and do this in a comfy location like a hallway at home, so there are no other distractions.
Let me know the kinds of stuff she seems to like and we can start making plans!
Tracy
Good morning!
She did really well here! 2 things to look at, separately:
first is the timing of the blind cross. You started out perfectly but then as she caught on, she got faster… so you got late and she had to make the adjustment at the last minute. So, definitely start the blind sooner – and the way to do that is to give yourself more of a head start: rather than waiting til she has finished eating the treat, you can toss it, send her on the find it and get moving before she even gets to it. Just walking at first so you don’t distract her from eating (although as an Aussie, I am not sure we can distract her from eating? I think she has pretty strong food drive, yes?). Then eventually you can be running – that will give you a nice big head start so the timing will be easier. By waiting til she eats it, she catches up to you almost immediately 🙂
Another by-product of moving away sooner is that she will eat the treat then immediately return to engagement. When you were stationary, she did eat the treat but she was not entirely sure what to do next so she was looking around a little. Your motion away will immediately get her engaged in the game 🙂 It looks like she was chewing the treats you tossed, so you might want to try soft treats for the tossing as you move – and if she can’t find them, you can use a towel or mat to toss them onto so they are easy to see outdoors.About the tugging – I agree that it took her a couple of reps to get into tugging on the toy. Looking at it, it might have been a combination of food-then-toy is hard for pups, and on those first reps also the toy was not moving as much. As soon as you really kept the toy moving because you were running as she got to it, she got right on it. She really loved the ball too! So keep running so she can chase the toy like she was doing here.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I feel the pain of the Covid booster! But glad to hear you are boosted and hope you are feeling great today.>> I am a HUGE fan of this stuff. I feel like it not only helps them learn to shape in arousal the way you have it designed in this course but really helps build a lot of confidence and optimism with surfaces, elevation, balance, movement and noise that is not only great for agility but carries over really well into real life.>>
Me too! Totally agree – must be the ‘great minds think alike’ thing LOL! I think the earlier we teach them about being thoughtful while in increasingly higher and higher arousal, the more we are setting them up for success in life and sport. They make better decisions, better self-control, better body awareness and on and on – all because of these little games. Plus it makes going back and forth between for and toys fun, and I think it makes shaping more interactive/fun and less sterile. I also think the higher arousal makes it easier for them to deal with noise and movement.
And yes, I would love a ‘do over’ with the previous generations so we can build in more confidence.
>>goat games in the wild>>
OK that cracks me up! LOL!!!!
On the video –
Home Goating:
This all looks really good, he is very happy to offer behavior on a wide variety of objects. Super!!
On the beginning session – you can make the mechanics even quicker on that first transition to get right into the session: so when you are tugging, have cookies already in a hand and get the prop down while also getting the cookies ready so that first click can be pretty immediate and there is no delay with getting cookies out. On the 2nd session, you did get the treats out before the transition and while you were still tugging and so they were ready before the mats came in: and that first click was quicker – nice! It is harder when the prop is bigger later in the video but worthwhile on the smaller props to practice the fastest transitions possible.A couple of ideas for you:
On the items that are not as slippery and require some balance, you can install more toy play – release to tug after every 3, 4, 5 treats or so. That will increase arousal while also asking for thoughtful behavior. And if that is no problem? Shape the entire session with toys only, no treats 🙂 We are all really used to shaping with treats so it is a fun challenge to shape something that is traditionally done with treats, using toys instead 🙂If you have several of those balance mats, you can put them together so he has a bigger area to get his body on – and then tug with him while he is balancing on those. That will encourage him to shift his weight into his ready while maintaining balance – it skips ahead a little because we do address it here later, but I think he is ready!
He looked great in the wild too! It is great that you have access to those locations for a little parkour 🙂 He seemed to be excited AND thoughtful, which is a really perfect state to be in, especially outdoors in a different location.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Wrapping: I am super glad he likes this game – it builds to come fabulous commitment and he is well on his way to that! He is really zipping around the cone pile AND the jump upright beautifully in both directions. Some ideas for you –
Take this to new environments, starting with the cones or jump upright really close to you again. The environment is the challenge, so we can back off the challenge of the distance between you can the cones.Also, you can try to play this with 2 toys and no food! That will help bring toys into sequencing (thinking ahead to the future, way in the future LOL!). You can use long squiggly toys so they are exciting 🙂
Blind cross foundations
Yes, this game will be a good one for toys too because it has so much motion. And it also layers in going back and forth between food (for the search) and the toy in your hand after the blind.
I think you did well on both sides – it might have felt odd on one side or the other, but they looked good! You had really clear connection so he was able to read every side change. Super!!!!
My only suggestion is to do your blinds sooner – he was almost at you when you did it, so doing them sooner will give him more time to process the cues. And that answers your other question: yes, move to a bigger space now so you have more room to run and more room to do the blind sooner 🙂 You can also do these are restrained recalls, if he doesn’t mind being held by someone else.Prop sends:
Really nice! Value is building up really well!!
I think with the ready dance you had too much foot movement back and forth and he was unsure if it was the send or just the dance party. So, keep dancing but only with your upper body 🙂 Keep your feet stationary so the foot movement is always the send cue. I don’t think he was judging your dance moves 🙂 I think he was a little confused as to whether it was a send or not LOL! Yo can see at :27ish he thought he was being sent.He is turning away (to his right) on a lot of reps – when he starts on your left side, he should turn to his right. He was quite perfect with those! But when he starts on your right, he should turn to his left – towards you, not away from you. He was correct with the left turn at :30 and :40 but then at :48 and :55 he turned away to his right. It could be that he is a righty, and it could also be that your sends on that side (and on the other side) were straighter and more forward with both feet at :30 and :40. At :48 and :55,your send was not as straight especially your back foot – so he might be reading some type of turn-away pressure. So try to be straight on the sending and also move away a little more off to the side, so that he is more encouraged to turn towards you all the time.
And for now, I agree that you can stay a little closer – he did have a couple of questions about moving away from the cookie hand, so staying closer to the prop will help him be 100% with that, and you can gradually inch further away.
For the driving ahead game – for now, keep playing with the toys 🙂 We have plenty of time to build up the toy play. Food can create the driving ahead but the toy play creates more speed and excitement, which is what we want 🙂
Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Bummer about the cheese causing some stomach upset! He will get better and better about tracking treats so then type of treat won’t matter as much.
And hooray for the tugging weight shift and also for blind cross recalls! I am excited that he is such a confident little guy!!!
TracyGood morning!
I agree – yay for tight turns! Plus, the teaching methods have really evolved so it is MUCH easier to get lovely turns with all sorts of dogs.
Great job shaping the new prop! And getting her to stick with you is working well – note the difference in her drive to the prop and the quickness in her turn! The sideways/backwards sending also looked really strong! You can stay close and see if she will hit with both front feet like she did at 1:20ish to really keep things clearer as we start adding crazier games 🙂
My only suggestion is to get the surfaces of the prop to be less slippery – both on the bottom side and on the top where she hits it. Maybe a rubber bath mat or something? She is hitting with a good amount of speed, so we don’t want her to slow down because it might slip out from under her.
No real time limits for weekly videos – as long as we are not over-training, it is all good! So your videos are spot on in terms of length and success rate 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning! Really lovely sessions here!!!
Good boy waiting for the Chomp cue on the toy at the beginning! And he was good about going back to the toy after the food.
I see what you mean about him dropping the fleece toy in anticipation of the food, like when he brought it to you and looked back and forth between your hands to see if there were any treats LOL! You can help him out and develop a procedure that says “no treats, only tugging” – it can be an informal gesture like tapping your legs, or reaching for the toy, or whatever seems to best encourage him to tug. I think the ‘where is it’ comes from him asking whether there is food available or not, so you can help him bring it all the way back and tug… and then trade for food rather than get into a pattern of an early trade-yah for treats.
The ball seems to have a better retrieve value, because maybe that is just what we do with balls – retrieve them then throw them again LOL His ball retrieve is really strong, and he seems to have high value for the ball, so this is a GREAT NFC toy for UKI where it is OK to throw toys (and USDAA too maybe, I would need to check – but NOT ok for AKC, where no throwing is allowed). I bring 2 balls into NFC runs for UKI so I can make quick transitions to the next thing in the run.
But I digress LOL! Overall – this is really nice work and I agree, he seemed very happy with this arrangement 🙂 I am especially happy that he is going back to the toys easily and happily – that is difficult for many dogs with as much food drive as he has. It is lovely to see how much balance he has with his reinforcement – it gives us soooooo many options for training. More fun coming tomorrow! Great job here 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Lots of great stuff here and one little detail to change:
On the 2-wing game – she was finding the backside line perfectly, even as you moved your line over and moved the start wing over. YAY!! My only suggestion would be to look at her a bit more on the back cue, as that will rotate your chest/shoulders more to the backside line. Everything else was great. Love how you worked through it systematically!!
Yes, the placement of reward on this 2 wing game and when you add the bar can be changed to help her come back to the bar – on the 2 wing set up, try to get the reward between you and the wing (you had it on the other side of you, putting yourself between the wing and the reward, which would encourage her to Keep going past the invisible bar).
Another way to look at the reward placement on the wing: visualize a jump bar coming out of the jump cups, the plop the reward right near where the bar would meet the jump cups of the wing she is passing. I throw it back with the dog side arm so it is a quick toss and also so the dogs don’t see an arm across my chest.
When you put the angled bar in – the reward presentation was why she was not taking the bar – for example at 1:03 you had it in the outside hand and youwere rotating your shoulders towards the a-frame here. Having the reward in your dog-side hand and keeping your shoulders facing the bar as you drop the reward back between you and the wing (over where the bar meets the jump cups) will help.
When you stood still at 1:16 on the last rep she got it, but we do want you to keep moving – so the simple tweak is to change the reward placement. She was on your left here, so have the reward in your left hand and as she gets to the entry wing, toss it back past where the jump bar meets the wing as you keep moving. She will be turning away from your line of motion to come over the bar. Let me know if that makes sense! I think it is that one little detail and then it will be perfect 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
I think we can smooth out the backside handling so it will be clearer for her –
Your were using extreme connection (lots of eye contact) which was dropping the dog-side shoulder way back. That can totally work but only really if the opposite arm/hand is also engaged by coming ahead of the body. For example, at :39 your dog side shoulder is all the way back but your opposite arm is not really engaged so that shoulder is back too, so she is reading it as a threadle cue (that is what a threadle shoulder set would be pretty much like).So you have two options to choose from with the handling – yo can use the big eye contact but let your opposite arm point ahead of you to the backside wing. Or, you can close your dog side shoulder forward a bit more and don’t use your opposite arm – the dog-side arm can swoosh forward a bit as she is passing you. Both are valid ways to handle the backside sends, so it is really a style choice 🙂
I think that moving faster will help too – walking up the line plus the open shoulders might be something she sees in threadles. When you were moving faster towards the end of the video, I thought she was much better about staying on the line!Jump-tunnel discriminations
I think this is a hard skill for her – she Iikes to go go go and makes early decisions LOL! So this requires processing in the moment which is great for her to go fast AND process.
A small tweak to the setup should make it easier – you can move the wing back towards the trees behind you so that both obstacles are on the same line, same lead. I think that the jump here would have required her to lead change away from you or for you to step into it. You can see she got it at :19 and :40 – and then when you pointed your feet to the jump, she got it every time even when you said tunnel and even when there was only one toe pointed at it. How far apart were the tunnel and jump? They might need to be further for now (2 or 3 meters) so she doesn’t get herself into a groove of one or the other and has more time to process.
Based on how she sorts things out, she is probably going to have a big AHA moment in the next session or two, then it will all be easy. You can separate the obstacles a bit more for now, and you can also add an attention-getter like her name before whichever obstacle you think is harder: for example, the tunnel seems to be her favorite at the moment so when you need the jump, you can call her then use your jump cue, to basically say “NOT THE TUNNEL THIS TIME” LOL!!! I don’t think you will always need to do it, we can fade it pretty quickly, but it can help get more success for now 🙂 And it is perfectly fine to do it if she needs it… my Voodoo needs it and will always need it 🙂 He, like River, likes to go REAL FAST and makes early decisions (as in, makes them a week in advance) so the name call reminds him that something is coming to process 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He did really well here, this is a crazy skill especially for youngsters! When you did take the extra step on the switch cue, it really helped him then it was easy after that – the more you can add the extra step on the first rep or two on each side, the easier it will be – even if it is one step. When you only did upper body, he had questions.
That was his only question – whether he should go to the tunnel without you stepping in. You can also move the tunnel closer to help fade out the step in!And I agree – I don’t envy the WAO selection committee! They need to balance dogs who are blazing fast with dogs who might not be quite as fast but can go clean consistently. The medals frm the team classes were won with the more consistent dogs. The WAO tests a lot of skills and strategy, so I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
The answer is in what you think the rate of success will be for the other behaviors in the run- if he is going to be very successful and have a super positive experience, then the next question is: does the course allow you to run without asking for a stay 🙂
If you get 2 yes answers:
Yes, he will be very successful and not frustrated
Yes, you can run without a stayThen yes, run him 🙂
Don’t ask for a stay if it is not ready for trials yet. Same as we would not ask a dog to do a teeter when he hasn’t learned how to do a teeter, we can skip asking for a stay for now.
T
