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HI Tracy
<I use the correct verbal even if I am in the perfect position for a physical cue (and vice versa – I will show physical cues while delivering the verbal) all in the name of helping the dogs as much as possible>
Ok, that makes sense. So in retraining Beka (and then training Kyrie) I should use the same physical cues I use to get the dog line that I want.
So getting a bit more specific, if for a specific direction-based command, say for the backside wrap turning to the right, my physical cues in my current handler-based system were different depending on the side the dog was on (thinking threadle versus push handling), would I pick one of the two physical cues and use it for both situations (that is, use it for both DOR and DOL) or could I use the same physical cues that I use now for the two situations?
I hope that question makes sense….
Oh, it just now it occurs to me that my current physical cue for the backside slice and the backside wrap done as pushes to the backside are the same – dogside arm forward pointing to the wing they are to go around. I can be anywhere depending on the needs of the course. Of course, for the wrap I am pretty much always heading to the wing they are going around but with the slice I might be doing the same (eg, maybe I plan on a tight RC while they are slicing the jump) or I might be moving away laterally from the dog to get down the line (say a serp line) or even just to do a german on the jump. Hmm, just now occurring to me that in some of the situations it can be confusing to the dog as to whether they should be slicing or wrapping (which impacts how they should be setting up to take off as the get around the wing). Now wondering if that explains some issues Beka has with slices vs wraps and not getting in a good takeoff place for a wrap. SIGH!
Am I over thinking that at all?
<So if the backside slice verbal is what cues her to enter on the right wing then slice to the left wing, when you would use that same verbal attached to the varying physical cues (like a push cue or a threadle slice cue).>
Ok, just to clarify, on a line of three jumps that you you are running DOL and you want them to do a threadle through each of the jumps, you would still use the direction-based command used to have the dog take the backside of the jump (from their perspective) and slice the jump for each of the jumps in the threadle line, correct? advantage is that it would be the same command if you were on the other side of the same line of jumps, correct?
You know, it’s seems sort of harder to talk about scenarios with direction-based terminology – LOL!
I took a stab at the tunnel outside using toys. This was not easy and was awkward with trying to hold her and the toys (I was guessing at what toys might work for throwing and give me a chance to get a hand on) and getting her to bring the toy back. We haven’t tried any kind of retrieving outside – I guessI need to do that while we still have decent weather (thank you El Nino). So in some ways this went ok and in others not so ok (my fault).
Earlier I had tried with a long line attached to the thrown toy, that was a disaster and wasn’t throwable at all.
Tonight we tried the lap and tandem turns with the prop. I couldn’t seem to get my handling sorted out on them. Will try again in a day or so.
Lapturns:
Tandem Turn: https://youtu.be/GP5DtVqD3dM
Also revisited the handling combos with the decel. Used the original tug and roast beef. She had trouble in particular just doing the left turns so backed up some and then was able to get it.
Right Turn (Dig): https://youtu.be/ZVrYUPzROP8
Left Turn (Check): https://youtu.be/hMKVbTeSggcThanks!
Lori
HI Tracy
<You can see that after a bunch of rewards that were thrown at the start, she questioned where to go after the hand touch (anticipating a throw). >
LOL! I think you might have missed me mentioning that I started the food video with a bit of a warmup of just doing the nose touch alone (we hadn’t done it in a bit). Then I started the formal strike a pose work with the treat in the other hand.
A question about this work. I know that it is totally applicable for the serp work but since I want to do the direction-based verbals for the backside slices,which would apply to threadles, would I be doing the threadle-specific version of this when we get to it? Although, I am wondering if using the direction-based verbals for backside slices for a traditional jump threadle line (since that is what they are) works?
<You can get the original toy back into your hand more by increasing the criteria to get the 2nd toy: you can keep that 2nd toy a bit hidden until toy #1 is in your hand… then until after you’ve tugged on toy 1. Using a marker will help a lot, in terms of when to ‘out’ that first toy: you can start by using it when the toy is in your hand, then delay it until after a bit of tugging.>
I’ll give those things a try next time.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
<with the main goal being to try to take it on the road – where else can she get on wobble boards and planks?>
Hmm, that is a tough one, we are at the end of the season here and not many places where I can access a plank of any type or a wobble board anymore. Will have to think on it.
I tried out the Strike a Pose tonight first with treats and then a toy.
Went better than I expected. I did a bit of warming up of the nose touch at the start. Initially wasn’t sure about the word to use for the treat reward as ‘treat’ tends to mean I will give it to you not that she should come to the hand to get the treat, so that didn’t seem to go well. So I just tried saying ‘yes’ and that seemed to work better.
Toy went much better than I expected.
Treats: https://youtu.be/VXm8UcLpxm4
Toy: https://youtu.be/OwH3Jb8yzas
Also thought I would give you an idea of what we are doing with retrieving right now. I am using the dog bed to my advantage as she typically likes to bring the toy to it. I need to work on her actually giving me the toy but she has done that a few times in different sessions.
Thanks
LoriHi Tracy
OK, I will give that a try! I might try it first in the basement as I have a 12 foot tunnel there but needed to clean off some tunnel bags before taking them down there.
tonight we did Turn and Burn again as after the live last night given that rocking horse is coming up (even though I feel I am 3 weeks behind on so much stuff) I felt that our turn and turn wasn’t where it should be yet. I think we progressed a fair bit tonight.
DOL: https://youtu.be/6V4cjrICo6s
DOR: https://youtu.be/y_2_EtIXNKo
Also did another Plank seesion to see if she would turn on the plank yet and I got turns in both directions! did have a bit of a glitch on one right turn where she came off and didn’t want to do the right turn again but did a couple of lefts after that.
Lori
Hi Tracy
Sounds good!
I got a chance to try the tunnel work again outside after the rain for the last couple of days.
I started with just using ‘go’ as a reminder for the tunnel and so you could see a bit how she is without the new word. then I used tunnel on the last couple, first time no bark, second a bark, third a bark, turn to me and I just stayed quiet to wait her out and see if she would do the tunnel, which she did.
So how do you think I should handle this going forward? I will say that I have seen a couple of instances where a word will increase her arousal a fair bit and I have adjusted things to maybe be quieter with the word, or gone back to being silent for a session or two and then added the word again but again more quietly and that has seemed to have helped.
Lori
Hi Tracy
I had the same treats (roast beef) but a different tuge that I thought was about the same value as the original tug based on prior experience. Apparently she says that is not correct – LOL!
Next session I am going back to the original tug but thinking that if she still choses the run to the tug over the roast beef I would pull in a higher value tug to entice her into the turn for a couple of reps and then try the roast beef again.
Seem reasonable?
Thanks
LoriHI Tracy
Ok, I think I get it now re my questions on the tunnel, the backside wrap videos and the T&B! Thanks!
Really wish you had a course now on this that I could work Beka through! Going into winter is the perfect time for me to do the retrain of all of them.
One thing – when you wrote – “You can of course use a lure to get it but I prefer to minimize lures because they are very hard to fade.”
Is that why you don’t have the feed bowl in the the third video? So it’s not acting as a lure once the jump bar is in place?
<This is what Kyrie should be working on before complex verbals should be added.>
Oh yes, will be a LOOOONG time before Kyrie starts anything like that, it’s the fancy stuff – LOL!! Too much turning on developing shoulders, etc! ALthough she certainly tries to kill herself on her own.
<didn’t seem to mind the foot tapping>
Yes, I’ve noticed that she is doing better with it, may have just been the newness of it.
EEK! After reading your comments on the barrel video I realized I accidentally posted the link for our previous session of doing the barrel work!
Here is the correct video – which didn’t go anywhere near as well as the previous session as I tried to figure out keeping her from heading for the tug on the ground when trying to add in the decel and turn after the barrel.
Here is the correct link: https://youtu.be/H-eNGuO4pLU
<So you can start tugging further away to avoid any potential conflict with you want tug and she wanting to offer behavior.>
I hadn’t thought to do that, will next time!
Thanks!
Lori
Hi Tracy
<I think of it as a direction-based cue based on the visual for the dog: they can see the full tunnel (picture it as a curved tunnel). And one end of the tunnel is on their line. That is the ‘tunnel’. The other end of the tunnel is off their line – that is the ‘me me me’. It is never a different tunnel, it is always one end of the tunnel or the other.>
Ok, but that sounds more like handler-based then direction/absolute-based since I assume your verbal varies based on which end of the tunnel would be on versus off the dogs line?
If that is correct which verbal applies, based on the earlier posts for jump bascksides, to make tunnel entrances direction-based you need to use the same verbal based on the turn the dog makes into the tunnel. Eg/ say ‘tunnel’ for all right turns into it and me-me-me for all left turns.
Or am I misunderstanding something about what you are saying re tunnels?
Re Kyrie barking for the tunnel. I’ll get some video of us doing the tunnel outside when the weather clears up.
<Absolutely! Questions are always welcome and I love obsessing on this LOL>
Thanks! and you know I obssess about a lot of this stuff too plus I tend to be very literal about things.
Does make total sense that you would start with doing the reinforcement on the intial turn away (landing side), but it seems to me there also comes a point when you need to be reinforcing father into the turn given this is a 360 wrap regardless of where we are.
For example, in the video where you added in the jump bar, at about 20sec the position where you are standing could look to the dog (especially thinking a retrain like Beka) like we might be doing a german or some other backside slice when we actually want them to continue the left turn around the upright. Now, admittedly how often would we be in a position like that on the course and want that 360 and not do some other handling (maybe once in a blue moon in gamblers?), but thinking for the purposes of teaching the backside wrap to be totally independent of the handler position we work through all the unlikely positions too?
That is where I would think having the reinforcement delivered after the dog turns away from the handler would be helpful, correct? I know doing similar positions with Beka (same-ish area as you are in that video but more on the landing side of the jump bar) she looked at me and I am sure she was wondering a bit if she should turn away, so I put the reward farther around to encourage completing the full 360. For where I was standing I could totally understand her thinking she was done given her training and that I was more in a spot I might be for a backside slice.
<That is why Turn And Burn is such a crucial game: it teaches the ‘finish the job’ element that all of this hinges on.>
For sure on that, I can’t think of a time when Beka has back jumped on course, but isn’t turn and burn is more a handler location-based exercise and they are always chasing to catch the handler? they aren’t really turning away from the handler (or did I miss an option)? Where with the backside wrap, depending on your location, they are turning away, and fairly late in the turn. they also aren’t always chasing the handler per se, they can be going away from us depending on where we are physically located.
I hope that makes some sense.
SSC – Handling Combos with decel:
Well we tried this and failed. I guess the tug I used this time was more valuable. I did try a couple of things and got it a bit so the video is longer as I tried working through it. What should I adjust on our next try (I will make sure I have the tug I used the first time).
Plankrobatics:
a bit of a warm up on the short plank, then tried to get some turns on the raised one but no luck.
After I stopped the video i saw her jsut get up on the raised plank and turn on it by herself in both directions so I did another short video to see if she would do again and didn’t use any treats to lure the turn, just moved away from her. She did the left turn 2x on the raised plank – interesting since that is the direction I feel is harder for her to turn in other things.
Short plank: https://youtu.be/7Iwwzslf_hM
Raised plank with food luring for turn: https://youtu.be/pES8DV40L38
Raised plank no food luring: https://youtu.be/eTS9cXLCfjU
Today I tried out the turn aways. On the tandem turn I seem to be better turning to my left, my first to the right was pretty awkward.
lap turn: https://youtube.com/shorts/sActBZERTsQ?feature=share
tandem turn: https://youtube.com/shorts/tAK2Mlm1Bes?feature=share
Thanks
Lori
Lori
Hi Tracy
Will try that decel/pivot work on the barrel. The backing up will take longer, I’ve got a mat with texture in use but getting the steps back is challenging.
<I think the tunnel threadle is already direction based – it tells the dog to find the other side (not the side on the line).>
Do you think so? I’ve never taught/used my tunnel threadle command (me me me) other then when the dog is between me and the tunnel entrance I want and it doesn’t matter if the dog is turning left or right into the tunnel – it’s the same command for either. Are you differentiating the tunnel entrance these days based on the direction of the turn the dog makes into the tunnel rather then where you are relative to the dog and the tunnel?
I think I will work harder on getting some directional commands in place for the exit with Kyrie. So basic left/right for the 90 degrees and also something for the tighter turns out.
But wondering if the words should be something different than for the jump versions to differentiate when a jump and tunnel are relatively close together on a course? ie/ not use left/right/dig/check with the tunnel since I use those for the jumps?
Question on the tunnel exercise. I’ve started adding the word tunnel and am getting barking happening which is not ideal. She can be pretty noisy in general (when she wants something or is expressing an opinion) but this is the first time doing work that she has done any barking.
The other girls never barked doing general agility work but would grumble (well Beka yells sometimes!) if I was late (fair enough – LOL!).
Thoughts on how should I deal with it?
Can I ask a question about your step 3 video for the directionless backside?
in case that is ok, I was wondering about where you were tossing the reward after the jump bar. I thought since this is your switch which I believe is one of the backside wrap commnads, wouldn’t it be better to toss the reward more so it lands on the takeoff side of the jump so they continue the turn?
I’ve started Beka on this so was wondering.
Thanks!
Lori
Hi Tracy
Well, annoying did a post and the system responded with ‘error: are you sure you wanted to do that’ so going to try to recreate.
<how does she feel about gentle smack da baby with your feet? >
I tried this on it’s own, not sure she liked it as she moved away from it.
<Do you have a Hollee roller or something taller/higher profile off the ground so she can scoop it up on the run rather than stop/splay low to grab it?>
Might have to see what I can buy or create. I have a couple of hollee rollers somewhere.
Handling Combos:
Roast Beef for the win! She could care less about toys when I have roast beef (we buy thick slices from the deli and I cut it up more, expensive but very effective!).
I started with the left turn this time (this is the turn that has been harder for her in a lot of the shaping work around the pole and barrel. She did really well I thought!
I added in a couple of them to the right near the end to see. I messed up one having her too far away.
She was also good at bringing the tug back. I reached for the second toy a couple of times but didn’t need it.
I am using my frontside jump wrap cues on this. I have 3 of the 4 words I will need for teaching her the backside wrap and slice handling so I can do that with her when appropriate (and retrain Beka with them). Decided new ones will also make it easier to use the current ones with Beka as we change over.
Movement and Noise – Wobble Board
We used the wobble board formally for the first time tonight (it was on the floor one other time we were in the basement and she got on it but I didn’t do anything with it). She got on it with her wubba as I was getting the video started and left what was recorded in.
Thought she did pretty good on it.
I was looking at the other week 4 stuff to decide what to do next and looking at the tunnel one you mention threadles with that. Just wondering how feasible/appropriate might direction-based handling be there? I’v never been terribly successful teaching even a direction-based left/right out of the tunnel but I haven’t really spent that much time on it. given the curves of tunnels I am even wondering if it is reasonable?
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
I tried the beginning of the Handling Combos as you suggested.
A bit of a hot mess to start, she couldn’t take her brain off the toy behind her (I tried to pick a lower value tug). Got away with it then she just headed for the toy. So I went back a bit and just got her to do the barrel with the toy reward from my hand for the new word for a right turn around the barrel (Dig) a couple of times. Tried an intermediary toss the toy back as she was going (not a successful toss – LOL). But I did get one rep at the end where I tossed the toy back before she went, she knew something got tossed, and she went around so we stopped.When we do again I’ll start with just going around with the toy in my hand again and then put the toy behind and see how it goes.
And I know the tugging wasn’t ideal but my back really isn’t happy with all the bending repeatedly and she seems to like putting a foot over the tugs, she uses her front feet a fair bit for playing, etc.
Lori
HI Tracy
Thanks for the info on the direction-based verbals. Just need to come up with words to use for them.
<The one thing to add is toy play before and after>
Yeah, my bad, we had done one quick thing off camera right before that I did start with tugging and I didn’t do more right before the plank work.
<Can you attach yoga mats to the white bench behind where you are standing in this video? This can be used as a future plank but it might be too slippery to use as is.>
That board does have traction on it. It’s the homemade plank from the short teeter I used for Rumor (do you remember her?) way back when she learned teeter so has sand in the paint. Ziva, Rayven and Beka all have done their initial plank work on this plank, learning to go across, hop on and off in the middle and turn on it. Kyrie has been on it but it is too narrow (it’s a 2×10) for her to turn on just yet. That is why I ended up on the other board, it’s the only wider one I have other than taking apart my DW or teeter.
Lori
HI Tracy
<To use direction-based for backsides as well (push and threadle) because they are even faster and I am even slower LOL and courses are MUCH bigger.>
OK, so you are doing it for backside(push)/threadle handling where the dog is doing the same path irrespective of where the handler is. To clarify this is using your Away verbal from the document with the handler in different positions:
Away would still apply with the handler in all these positions.
(BTW is there a way to post an image in the forums? I tried to post just the photo and couldn’t see a way to to it)
<Not re-using any, because existing verbals have meaning that would be very hard to unravel. New verbals all around!>
Sigh. I know this is the right way to do this but I do really like some of the verbals I’ve been using for years. Not an issue with Kyrie to reuse a couple in a slightly different way but could be with Beka and since she just turned 5YO I am thinking I should be able to change her over too.
What I was thinking is maybe use my ‘Push’ which is currently my push to the backside slice when Beka is on my right and extending it to be the command for doing the equivalent turn for the threadle slice (which is currently my ‘In’ command and is used both DOR and DOL)
Just thinking about verbals to use. I know some people left left and right starting with the dog doing 360s right beside them on the ground and then translate that to a jump.
I’ve not done that because it feels like translating that to just a 90degree type turn over a jump doesn’t make sense given it’s been used for doing 360 turns on the flat and usually mulitple in a row. I do the 360’s on the ground for warmups and such using the words Twist and Spin.
I am thinking those might work as the command for the backside wraps in this switch? Or would it be better to use something else specific to the jump?
Plankrobatics:
I only have one plank that is easy to use that is a bit wider so I tried it to see if she could turn on it. Left turns are a bit harder but overall not too bad for the first time.
Thanks!
Lori
Hi Tracy
Yes! What you posted is exactly what I am leaning towards doing on the backside wraps. The source that got me thinking about it calls it direction-based handling (dogs direction) and what we typically do as handler-based (based on our positioning). So dog doesn’t have to think about where we ae to know what to do! I really like the idea!
you mentioned this:
<This will be basically “go to the left wing and slice” or “go to the right wing and wrap” There are still 4 backside verbals in each style of training, but the difference is that one set (relative) has handler position input and the other set (absolute) is about the dog’s direction only.>
I was debating doing direction-based/absolute verbals with the backside slices. Sounds like you are doing that?
One other thought was how far to push it since it is entirely based on the dogs position relative to the jump they are heading towards.
For example, the backside slice around the right wing of a jump is the exact same thing from the dog’s perspective as a threadle slice is for that same wing of the jump. What is different is our postion relative to the jump. On the backside slice we are on the landing side of the jump and on the threadle slice we are on the takeoff side of the jump.
Are you looking at using the same command for both of those situations also since the dog is doing the same thing on both of them????
I feel like the direction-based could be so much easier on the dog overall. harder for us to switch over to though (sometimes I still mess up left and right in the moment even when I’ve rehearsed them on every walk through of the course – DOH!)
I assume you are changing verbals during the switchover? or are you reusing some?
Lori
Hi Tracy
Did turn and Burn again today.
On the DOL video it’s shorter because I started doing it then checked the phone and sigh, no video, so I did just a bit from where it was.
DOL: https://youtu.be/pLYTBsGsnXo
DOR: https://youtu.be/yEWcQSWad-c
DOR is her harder turn being it is the left turn.
Teaching Collection Pt2
I was late on the blind a few times as I was trying to make sure she had the treat.
I was reading the verbals lesson from Pkg 4 and wanted to ask a question about something I am considering.
I am switching my wrap verbals (dig/check) to be direction-based regardless what side the dog is on rather then having an additonal (turn) that means turn tight away from me over the jump and come back across the plan. Basically as you mentioned you have.
I am also contemplating doing direction based with the backside wrap commands. Right now I have Zoom to do what your Dig does on the backside wrap and the command Wrap to do what your In does on the threadle wrap.
Most of the time with Beka I am out of the picture and quite far behind so I am thinking direction-based might make more sense so she knows what to do regardless of what side she is technically on when she is way ahead of me.
I am trying to think of what might be a disadvantage of doing the backside wraps as direction based on but haven’t really coom up with any so far.
Wondering your thoughts might be on doing direction or handler based on backside wraps?
Thanks
Lori
