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Hi!
The backwards starts went really well at the beginning! Lots of speed and great commitment! I see what you mean about him checking out and calling an Uber 🙂 I think a coupe of things happened:
A couple of handling-induced errors, like at :33 and 1:29 when you were too quick to leave so he pulled off the jump. And a little too much pressure on the physical cue at 1:19, 1:26, and 1:37, where you were more in the center of the bar so your step back cued the backside (he was correct, good boy).
And, looking at reward placement: all of the reward was on the way to jump 2, so I think the value shifted – so after a bunch or reps, the value was no longer on committing to the jump as you left so he gave up – be sure to balance the value of tossing the reward to the landing side of the #1 jump rather than always up the line near 2.One other thought here: on the ‘marked’ forward sends, you don’t need to wait for him to focus forward on the jump. Some dogs are not going to, they are going to look at you every time but then still commit beautifully to the jump 🙂 My Contraband is like that: Never focuses forward, always looks at me, and yet really never fails on the commitment. Odd, but I don’t fight with him about it LOL!
He was great on the stuff-in-the-way sequences! He seemed to never look at the wrong line, and was great about following your line and processing verbals. That is great, because this challenge is EVERYWHERE now (we basically saw this exact setup at the US Open!) He only had a couple of little questions:
More motion needed through the box at :38 to get him to take the outer jump, more like what you did at :44 – that was really nice!!!
A 1:08, the “here” did not take him off his line – you needed the arm change/false turn like you did on the last rep to snooker him through the gap there.
The rest looked great!!Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I might need more coffee to form more coherent answers, but here goes 🙂>>OK, I see the benefit of having a verbal for just the weaves to turn away. Looking at what has progressed with my dogs over the years, I have seen threadles go from one cue to different cues for exit lines, back sides go from one cue to different cues based on jumping style (wrap or slice) and wraps from one for either direction based upon where you are to separate cues for each direction.
Yep! All this just in the last 4 or 5 years.
>>So, in teaching the switch for turning away from us at the weave exit, is there any chance we’ll ever need a different cue for each side? I can’t think of how that would happen, but then I also didn’t predict needing separate wrap direction cues, etc. LOL!
Do you mean which side of the tunnel? LORDY I HOPE NOT hahaha but I assume it is possible, if the judge sets up a tunnel discrimination. I can picture it in my head: dog turns away at the exit of the weave and sees two tunnel entries. I think at this point we could pair the verbals: switch then tunnel for the tunnel on the line, and switch then the tunnel threadle cue for the other end of the tunnel.
>>Also – I have pretty much only used my wrap cues for full wraps and my right and left for 90 degree turns or less. I have this unclear thing about what to do for something between a full wrap and a 90 degree turn. If i”m unclear then my poor dogs don’t stand a chance.
Good question!!!
This is what I do with my big dogs, let me know what you think:
It has to do with how much collection on I need before takeoff.
For a wrap where the dog comes back across the plane of the jump they just took pretty immediately, that requires a LOT of collection so I use the wrap verbal.
For a turn that is 90 degrees or the dog *eventually* comes back across the plane but doesn’t need a lot of collection on takeoff: that is left or right.So choose it based on how much collection you want and how quickly the dog has to come back around the wing. Within a couple of feet, requiring a tight collection? Wrap. The dog comes back past the wing 10 or 15 feet down the line and only needs a little collection? Soft turn verbal.
>>In the jump to tunnel part, I can’t tell if you’re using your wrap or directional cue. My assumption is you are using the wrap cue.
Let me know specifically where you are asking about but in general: If you can’t hear it: wrap cue 🙂 My wrap cues are just a noise and I needed the dog to give me a big collection there. The left/right would be softer turns and less collection
>>If you were training your dog to go to the tunnel with a wrap verbal and there is an obstacle closer on a tighter turn, how do you distinguish between using a wrap verbal there and and for the tunnel.
It depends on the exact scenario, but I think choosing based on how much collection you want on the turn jump followed by the obstacle name would get it done nicely.
>>I know you call the obstacle name, but at speed that doesn’t seem to be a good thing to make them think. Does that make sense?
Totally makes sense! I am happy to ask the dogs to think at speed – the key is spit the cues out early and often. But obstacle name might not be enough if there are 2 jumps or 2 tunnel entries out there, so he verbal for the collection is important. And, if it is a really difficult discrimination, name calls and threadle cues will help. It totally depends on the scenario.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I don’t think the other dogs will have a problem with the beep… the other people might get all cranky though LOL!!!
I have used the beep-less MM at 2 different UKI trial locations, and no one had any problem with it. And it is completely legal per UKI and USDAA rules, it is no different than leaving your toy 20 feet away from the ring. It should also be legal per AKC rules, as long as you have him on leash before you leave the ring.Tracy
Ooh, the around is a great idea: a heartbeat of tug, then an around then a friz throw!
And you can slowly crank it up to where he has to pull the toy out of your hand as the way to get you to stay the around cue 🙂 Make it easy for him to do that at first, then make it harder and harder til it is real tugging 🙂
And it is perfectly fine if tugging is not his favorite thing and we use higher value reinforcement in training. I know plenty of ridiculously high level champion world team dogs that don’t want to tug; Fever is in very good company!
T
Good morning! I agree, his play and focus overall was really strong!
A lot of this emphasized the remote reinforcement procedure, which is a good one for him to learn: What is the marker for it? I think it is ‘let’s go’ and that got clearer as you went along, so in the early stages be sure to say it before praise so it is really salient. I am glad you took the bait bag off too, that is important for the remote reinforcement: the dogs need to know that we do not have any cookies or toys on us or in pockets.He overall did really well with the remote reinforcement – It might be too soon to put longer agility runs into the remote reinforcement procedure, he had some distraction issues with it plus it makes it harder to reinforce the agility behaviors you are working on. So for now, keep the remote reinforcement to just moving away from it and tricks 🙂
He had nice toy play near the treats! The toy is hard for the remote reinforcement because it was even more exciting than the treats here, and the access to it was too easy so he snatched it. As he is learning to ignore it til cued, so you will want to put it somewhere so that he cannot steal it and run around – the toy should be enticing but as he is learning to ignore it, it should be less accessible and can also be on a long line so he can have some possession of it without you losing control of the reinforcement. You can put it on a table or something taller, and just work moving away from it one step a a time. I am glad he really likes the toy, we will definitely want to use it!!!
This is also a super long amount of training in one session, so you were getting some ‘shut down’ behaviors that didn’t look like traditional shut down – stealing the toy, not letting go of the toy, zooming, etc. are all signs of the session being too long. I am really liking his toy play and I think that you should reward with an immediate treat when he lets go of it – and set a timer so you do 2 minutes then take a break. You will see his focus and self-control improve with the shorter sessions.
>>What word do you use for get that food on the ground at my feet? Catch to me means get that cookie out of the air…>>
I say ‘get it’ which is basically anything on the ground that the dog is allowed to move to get. Some folks have a different word for the ‘get it’ which is more of a thrown reward versus a ‘find it’ which is a reward dropped near their feet. You can choose which one you like!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Glad to hear things are going well!>> I notice in start line class when you are doing lineups and running away with the toy etc. in the games you are not using marker words like snacks, bite and hand. Should I be using these at all times now? They seem to overlap but was not sure.>>
Yes – if you have the markers, use them 🙂 I didn’t emphasize them in that class because we were focusing on other things – you can hear bits and pieces of them (like ‘catch’) but since you are working on them now, you can totally use them there as well.
TracyGood morning!
>>I saved the moving between food and a toy assignment for later since I know that will be challenging and I will need more time to work through it. Cowboy is definitely more food driven so as soon as I whip out a treat, a toy will be quickly forgotten. The exception is the Lotus ball since there is a strong association with food.>>
Yes, that is really hard for food motivated dogs! You can start with a REALLY high value toy (ball?) and a boring boring treat. And I also like to have some distance between the two: the boring treats are in one room, and the toy is in another room – and I basically run back and forth between the two rooms, to get interaction with the toy in one room and the treats in the other room LOL! Then gradually we bring them clsoer and closer together.
Your remote reinforcement session went really well! That MM is SUPER high value and he did a great job of moving away from it. I like the ‘treats’ word and well done to you for saying it an *then* clicking the MM and moving back to it. He was great! And he did well when you asked for behavior too and also at the end. Perfect! We will eb building on this!
>>I did work on remote treat delivery using a Manners Minder (I may also try the one where you place food on a table or chair since that closely simulates what happens in a trial environment.>>
Yes – to simulate the trial environment, you can totally put string cheese or your cookie bag on a chair or table. I have also used the MM in a trial environment: it was on a chair about 20 feet outside the ring. The dog knew where it was and at the end of the run, we did the ‘lets go’ to it (I turned the sound off on it LOL!!!) This was UKI, they were fine with it. USDAA probably would be too. I am not sure about AKC, they have tighter rules about ring exits.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>“Do you know what might trigger them to be nervous? Is it something like being at the vet? Or anything your might encounter in the training environment?”
At the vet they look calm but they just ignore the food.>>For dogs that ordinarily love food, that would indicate a level of anxiety that is not paralyzing, but strong enough that they can’t eat. I understand how they might anxious at the vet’s office!
>> If they are too close to a passing car, another dog on the agility field that they can see or hear (dogs in tunnels or on the seesaw) they look frantic and either ignore the food or grab and it just sort of falls out of their mouth. Moving further away improves the situation.
Perfect that you move them away! That gets them under threshold so you can get reinforcement involved.
>>Buccleigh is controllable around cars as long as Keltie is not with us. They egg each other on. Keltie is still a work in progress.
Yes, that makes sense. In triggering situations, try to walk them separately or with a ‘stable pony’ if you have one: a non-reactive, super chill dog. For example, my 8 year old dog is a seasoned professional who is very calm in new environments, so my youngest pup gets walked with him so she can see him model calm confidence. She does NOT get walked with my 9 year old Papillon, for example, who is a complete nut LOL!
>>They are just the opposite with Agility equipment. Keltie can be distracted as long as she is about 30 ft away. Buccleigh needs to be further away and is much more aware of the sound.
In the next set of games, we are going to work on some patterns and loops than can help them in the situations you are describing!
>>“will they chase the treat hugger even if it doesn’t hav a treat in it? At least go to it, maybe pick it up?”
Buccleigh will chase and pick it up and even bring it to me although he drops it rather than giving it to me. He will also look for it if I say “find the toy”. Sometimes it takes a couple of “asks” to get home to do this. The ball works in a similar way. Keltie will chase the treat hugger but once she knows there is no food in it she is done. She will chase a ball and pick it up. She runs back to me but usually drops the ball on the way. I have been giving her treats on her return.>>This is all good – bringing the ball or treat hugger does not have to be part of the equation. You can reward them for interacting with it but throwing a treat or another ball/treat hugger the opposite direction. I also attach the treat huggers to a thin long toy, so I can drag it around for them to chase 🙂
>> I don’t know if they will chase a ball with distractions. Can you give me some examples of how to test this? They will chase a ball on our agility field, But I have only done this when we go out to chase the ball. I could try running a little agility and then seeing if I can get them interested in the ball. Would that be a way to test it?>>
Absolutely! Or you can have a boring bag of treats up on a chair or countertop and see if they will play ball when it is present. I am sure they will be able to smell it LOL!
>>“We can use the chase element”. I have a “swift paws” lure coursing kit which Keltie absolutely loves. She is chasing a plastic bag on a string for that one. She will also chase a furry thing on a flirt pole. I haven’t tried the coursing thing with Buccleigh since he was rehabbing when I had it set up. He will also chase the furry thing on the flirt pole. I usually stand and fling the thing around for both of them. I haven’t been as successful getting them to chase it if I drag it when I run. I am going to try that today just to see what happens.>>>
Perfect!!!! I have students who have used a plastic bag from the grocery store tied to a leash as a high value reinforcement 🙂
>>They both chase reflections and flashlights but I have tried very hard not to reinforce that since I think that could be a problem-it definitely reinforces the car chasing at night.>>
Yeah, I agree, I want to stay away from that (at least for now) because chasing lights can encourage some obsessive behavior that we do not want to add in.
Let me know what you think and how the ball testing goes!
TracyGood morning! Great sessions here with both dogs, they are both so fun!!!!
On Laci’s video:
Good choice of toys with Laci! That is perfect for getting play with food. When you were working the Bite – move it away from her a bite so she can move towards it. Yuo don’t need to it be stationary or move towards her, we can use her chase instinct to get her diving on it more 🙂 You were starting to get really strong behavior when you opened it a little – note how she was voraciously pushing in to get the cookie. Yay! You can gradually close it bit by bit, so she has to really dig in to get it.
The get it was very happy-making for her, she seemed super happy to chase the toy a bit! You can add in throwing the toy (after you close it a little more so the food doesn’t fall out) to extend the excitement.The other thing you can do with this toy is tie it to a longer toy or a soft leash, so you can move it, throw it , get her chasing it. That will also allow you to stand up more and not have to lean over, as well as move away from her – all of which helps build play.
“Shhhhhh” was great, you were really getting the exact speed of moving the toy for her to grab at it and move to it. She was starting to grip it more and that is precisely what we want 🙂
The catch is going really well – you can throw the toy behind her and not to her so it doesn’t hit her 🙂 My guess is that we will not use the catch very much for her, because we want to get her running as hard as she can, rather than staying in one spot. So for now, let’s emphasize all of the reinforcement that is moving so she can chase it like a wild woman 🙂
Basically, we are using her love of food to bring the same excitement and intensity that we get when a dog loves to tug (like Keko does). Tugging brings a certain energy level and arousal, and that is why we use it. But, ‘tugging’ and play might look slightly different for every dog – so her tug might look non-traditional in that she might use her feet or be chasing the food but if this toy & food works to elicit the same excitement, then we are in good shape and the end results will be the same as if she was tugging on a toy. I think you are off to a great start on that!!!
The remote reinforcement (let’s go) went really well, this is going be an important element for her to help build confidence in the ring where you won’t have cookies.
Keko is hysterical with his sock, the sock play looked great! I wonder if he wanted more movement in his toys so he was not as engaged with them? Or maybe he just smelled the sock and it was higher value. You might have to steal some dirty socks for your training bag LOL! He was certainly engage with the sock LOL!!! Thanks, hubby! (I won’t tell him haha)
When food is in the picture, he struggled a bit – this is normal. The toy/sock can move more, it can be wilder to elicit more chase of the toy which can increase the value. And also you can separate the food & toy place a bit- literally separate them by having the food in one room, and the toy in the other: play with the toy in one room then run to the other, feed a cookie, then back to the toy room. It is a nice workout LOL!!! But it separates the toy play from the sight and smell of the treats and makes it exciting and easier. I did this with my Papillons and the terriers who preferred food over toys at first. And as they got into the back-and-forth rhythm of toys and food, I was able to get the food and toys closer together and eventually in the same room, then in the same location. Now they can tug while I holding cookies (they were not able to do that when I started, especially the Paps who, like the Eskies, love food a whole lot :))
He liked the get it when you tossed the sock a bit so I think keep it moving will really help when he is in distracting environments and when food smells are neaby! And he also liked the “shhhhh” chase – that was the first time he tried to ‘thrash’ the toy and that is GREAT! You can let him tug longer in that situation, let him has a really good thrash and pull back – it is really reinforcing 🙂 Yes, some socks will be sacrificed to the greater good but I am sure the hubby will understand LOL!
Let’s go looked great with him too – he is VERY smart, did you see him kid of freeze for a moment about 6 feet from the cookies: “MOM, THE COOKIES ARE OVER THERE!!!” haha! But then he finished strong by moving with you. We will definitely be building on that too so we can take it to the ring. And since he loves his toys, you can use ‘let’s go’ with toys or socks.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Sure, a red t-shirt, sure… hahaha!
I think this video was very insightful! I totally agree – he does not love to tug. And, since positive reinforcement is in the eye of the beholder… tugging is not actually a strong positive reinforcement at the moment, except maybe in certain situations. This is super important to know!!
From what I could see, the Uber-calling and running off was mainly “you’re gonna try to make me tug, ewwww”. Important info!So, two tracks we are going to use:
– when you need to train something, use some other form of toy play that he does actually perceive as positive reinforcement. He seems to like throwing the toy. And he likes a thrown frizzer (I think when he was running off, he might have been asking you to throw the toy and not try to tug with it). You can use all of the chase-type reinforcements that you have identified as high value, especially in difficult environments. Or, use high value food if he will take it.
And if he is not interested in any of the available reinforcement – stop the training session 🙂 No point in trying to train if we don’t have positive reinforcement! Bear in mind that what we *think* is positive reinforcement might not be positive reinforcement to the dog. That $45 Floramicato toy that I bought last week? Elektra has zero interest in it, but she is happy to use an old shoe as a tug toy.– separately from training, we ar going to start installing loops and building value for the lower value reinforements that we would like to use in training. So – using something he really likes, such as a thrown friz – you can start to play a little bit of “1 second of tugging then I throw the friz” Don’t be greedy with the tugging, he just needs to pull the toy a little then you can either throw the friz, throw a cookie, or throw the toy. Consider tugging a behavior for now, not a reinforcement. Same as a tunnel – it starts as a behavior we train, then it gets super fun and can become a reinforcement 🙂 It will build up over time! And when you ask for tugging, you don’t need to be stationary – you can have the toy moving, making it very exciting. And when he grips it – give your out cue then go to the reinforcement of the thrown cookie/toy/ball/friz/ etc.
It is pretty common to need to build value for tugging! And he is pretty honest about his thoughts about it LOL!! So try super short value-build sessions. Remember, tug is not a duration behavior 🙂 It is a 5-second dance party 🙂
Have fun and let me know what you think!
TracyOh crud, that is my error. Need.More.Coffeeeee!!! I will go fix it, thanks for pointing it out 🙂
Tracy
Good morning! These all look really strong!
It was hard to see you hands on all of these, so be sure that you are saying the word and then moving the hand – that will strengthen the markers and get her to watch your hands less. I am bugging everyone about that – it is HARD! LOL!
Those were some pretty impressive find its in the leaves! She does love her cookies LOL! And yes, this is a great pattern for new environments when we want to get more focus (more on that coming soon!)
Cookie! was great fun for her too, she was super happy to drive back to the cookie hand. And she was happy to follow the moving cookie too, and the physical cue & marker sounded very different. You can probably use the moving cookie hand o get more focus too!
And the catch was easy for her too – she almost seemed surprised at all of the free and easy cookies LOL!
These look strong, so you can start incorporating the markers in any other training you might be doing with food rewards. That will start to build the habit for us humans to spit out the correct marker then present the reward 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>I am a bit fumbly going quickly between food and toys. Half the time if I have treats pre-loaded in my hand and a treat in play I end up throwing them instead of the toy or just dropping them everywhere. 🤣>>
Ha! I totally feel this! The mechanics of training are NOT easy and a 3rd or 4th arm would be lovely.
>>Yes, I think I specifically/unintentionally or not taught him not to come ALL the way in so that the 8 lb mini poodle, Mighty Mouse, would have the space closer to me and not have to worry about getting trampled. So, poodle gets the spot by my feet, Ripley got the middle distance and the 13 year old got the farthest distance (her preference).>>
Well, that makes sense – Mighty Mouse is really little so needs to not get trampled 🙂 I believe that Ripley will be able to differentiate the sessions: group play versus training. When I have group play happening where all the dogs are running around or waiting for their turn to get the friz, the rules are a little different than in the one-on-one training sessions. They have big victory lap/dance parties in the group play, and in the one-on-one they bring the friz back right away. I didn’t specifically teach that, but clearly they differentiate the context and have figured out the most efficient way to continue the reinforcement. We will be installing some loops which should help Ripley differentiate and that will make it even easier.
>>Yes, he is not always sure why the heck he “won” the toy since he doesn’t really seem to want to possess it, just engage in the tugging. So, good idea to give him a next cue rather than letting him win. If I just let him pull it away and don’t move at all I feel like he looks even more confused and will either try to shove it back in my hands or will drop the toy, so a next cue to get a nice chain will probably make more sense to him.>>
Right! From that early baby Ripley video, we can see how he just wants to interact with you and the toy – it is part of who he is (and that is a beautiful thing!) So while some dogs love to win the toy, he finds it to be a bit of downer. That is good to know about him! But he loves to ‘do a thing’ so giving him the next cue will turn out to be really reinforcing, I believe.
Keep me posted! All of your strong mechanics and attention to the detail of reinforcement is creating a lot of really beautiful behavior!
Tracy
Good morning! And welcome!!!! You and Risk were amazing last night in class. He is a baby pup but he did really well and is super brilliant! I love it!
>>very first puppy!
Wait, he is your first puppy? Well, you clearly have a natural gift for training. You did a great job with all of the games last night!
>>Risk knows almost nothing in terms of verbal cues & has had minimal training sessions. We’ve shaped a station behavior, as well as sit and down. We’ve also done 2 short sessions on body awareness and circling with front feet on a raise target. He knows to sit if he wants something and we’re actively working on lying down & remaining calm when the humans are eating. In the short 2 weeks I’ve had him, he’s been on the road accompanying me and my older BC to the US Open.>>
Perfect! He is doing great!!! Yo are working on all sorts of lovely things already and so these puppy class games will add to the fun. He is a really lovely puppy and I am excited to watch him grow and learn!
And now we all need to catch up on our sleep from the US Open LOL!!!!Have fun!
TracyGood morning! Great job in class last night!!! She is awesome 🙂
>> and proving to be a lot of dog.
>> She’s extremely smart, and seems to catch on very quickly! Both of which can be very dangerous…>>Dangerously fabulous! Basically, everything we want her to be. She was a superstar last night with all of those new concepts and I am excited to see more from her!!!!
Tracy
