Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
Great lists! Clearly motion-based reinforcement is high value for her. And since toys raise the state of arousal to a place where it might be difficult for her, then you can really focus on the comob procedures: toy-food back-and-forth games, to help balance the arousal. And since she usually can take food. have you considered food-based toys, like a lotus ball or a treat hugger? I know that they are generally used by dogs that don’t love tug toys, but it might be a nice way to balance her arousal: movement plus food 🙂And her love of playing with trash will save you a lot of money on expensive tug toys LOL!!!!
The toy hierarchy sounds good too, as well as the activity hierarchy. The toys might be something you use in training to simulate trial arousal, but food is the main reinforcement at trials. It will take some experimenting to know for sure. And it is not surprising that at higher levels of arousal, she is NOT into snuggling LOL! That is pretty normal for most BCs that I know 🙂
Onwards to the games 🙂
TracyHi there!
Great lists!!For Laci – the food hierarchy looks fabulous. We can expand her toy hierarchy: do you have a treat hugger? It is another great treat delivery toy. And, if you have time in the next couple of days, fire up the Manners Minder and get her excited about it. I think you can use it for your get it marker and we can also add it to a lot of different things, including the remote reinforcement 🙂
Also, does she like bully sticks or pigs ears or anything like that? We can use those as toys! Ewww, I know… but if it gets her fired up, then it is worthwhile 🙂
And I think we can use some of the activities too like the sniffing and chasing!Keko’s food hierarchy looks great but the toy hierarchy is cracking me up! I wonder if we can put dirty socks into your training bag to take to trials LOL!!! We can totally use the various balls and toys in the procedures.
And as with Laci, I think we can incorporate the activities too~ you will need to ‘name’ them so they can be built up into markers: I have used “go for a run!” and ‘take a sniff’, for example.
Great job! Onwards to the foundation procedures!
TracyHi!
Great job with the toy games!Catch – he really likes the ball! Yay! Before you were saying catch, you had your hand in the air – that might be because he was so close to you. So to strengthen the marker, you can try having him stay on a mat or something, so he is not as close – it is hard to do a catch when the dog is right in front of us LOL! That will make the mechanics feel easier, and you won’t feel the need to throw it over his head, and you can keep your hand lower until after you said ‘catch’.
The get it section looked strong, Could really see you separating the words from the movement, like at 1:33 – good timing there and generally good timing throughout! And he of course thought it was super easy LOL!
He wa a good boy going from the balls to the tuggee! I agree, I don’t think you said chomp LOL! So add it in 🙂 And also, does he have a ‘bring it’ or ‘out’ cue going? Those can help set up a nice little loop of the get it, bring it, out, chomp!
Great job with these1 I am looking forward to applying them soon!
TracyHi! Good question!
Depending on how you use catch and get it, there should be no confusion if you keep them different.
For catch -the dog should stay where he is because the cookie is coming to him. Tat is why we throw it to him or just behind him.
Get it is a moving marker – meaning, he should move forward to get the reward. I don’t use ‘get it’ when rewarding staying in position and throwing the cookie back to the dog – that is a ‘catch’ moment. If I wanted to use get it, I would throw it forward or slightly off to the side, so the dog will move forward out of the position. Catch is like pizza delivery to your doorstep: stay there, it is coming to you 🙂 Get it is like going out to dinner- you have to leave your position to get to the food, which is somewhere ahead of you.
let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Boy. . . I need to catch myself. Sometimes I say the verbal and toss/hand movement at the same time. I need to clean up my mechanics.
Video is great for this – we see things we don’t notice in ‘real time’ and it keeps up honest. I think being super careful in the foundation stages will allow us to be a title muddy when we are running and arms are flying everywhere LOL!
>>I video both Flurry and Skye. I though it mentioned somewhere that we could show the other dog but making sure to not go over 10 minutes a week. Otherwise, just ignore Flurry:-)>>
Yes both dogs can be in the video 🙂
Speaking of the video: it is indeed a fine line between moving too soon and moving too late, for presenting the reward after the marker.
You were being a bit too slow on the get it toss in the beginning but then you got quicker. Because you are a musician, think of it as 2 1/8th notes then a quarter note – you hand moves on the quarter note 🙂 If your hand moves on the 1/8th note, you are too early. If your hand move on the downbeat of the next measure (we are in 2/4 time here haha) then you are late.Question: Was her head down because she was looking down for the treats? She seemed engaged and was happy to eat the cookie however ou presented, but had a lowered head position. It was hard to tell because her back wa stop the camera, but I think she was just looking downwards to get the treat? her get its and catches looked great!
I see what you mean about Skye’s get it, trying to get the cookies as you release them. You can teach the procedure with him starting on a mat or Cato board or something – he in on the board facing you, you say get it and toss off to the side so he moves away to get it. The other option is to have him at your side, hold his collar if he doesn’t mind that, say get it, toss, then let go 🙂 That can build an understanding that get it involves leaving you and doesn’t involve trying to catch the treat LOL!
he did well with the catch – your hand was moving a little too much, so this is a good one to remind yourself not to move your hand.The shhh marker was surprising to him for some reason, he is probably not used to following a cookie hand? So, you can move the hand more slowly so it is right at his nose, and give him the cookie more frequently. He really likes cookies so he will figure this one out really quickly 🙂
>>I don’t have video of this, but I can do Get it with cheese on my front walkway with leaves all over, and he doesn’t grab to eat the leaves. So, there is some success there. Just need to keep working on incrementally adding in plant material as distractions. I can take him on walks or hikes, and he won’t eat things for 80% of the time now. Oh! And, he runs to get in the car now! He started to panic on car rides, but Dr. Overall had me use Sileo to D and CC to the car and rides. It worked like a charm. He had associated my car with going to the vet. I’ve had to switch to a mobile vet for him.
This is amazing!!! Well done!!!!!! He is doing really well 🙂
>> I’m working on the plan on how to get him back to going to the regular vet, but I’m not going to take him until I can go in with him. Flurry is now refusing to get out of the car at the vet.>>
I saw a CU game done inside a vet’ office, I am sure you know which one it is … Maybe the vet will let you come in to play the game but not actually get a treatment?
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This is looking really good!
He thought get it was the easiest best thing ever LOL! Indoors and outdoors, it all looked good and easy for him. One thing to be super careful of is when you have the treats in your hand, be stationary when you say get it… then toss the treats, Try not to lean over at all to begin the toss, and don’t move your hand – stay perfectly still, say get it, wait half of a heartbeat 🙂 then throw the treat. This will help to really isolate the word and keep him from watching your body movement as the main cue for reinforcement.Catch – this went well too! He wants to come forward as you are throwing, so feel free to throw behind him. For example, when he was in the down – you don’t have to throw it to his mouth, you can throw it to his tail – yes, he will get up to get the treats but that is fine – catch is like a release in that way. This will be a useful one for adding distance skills!
My dogs loved the way you were saying ‘catch’, they all came running over to the computer LOL!You had a ‘cookie’ marker, I think that is your come-to-hand marker – this was your best on in terms of saying the word while being stationary (he totally responded to the word cookie!) and then you moved the cookie hand to encourage him to come in to get it. That was spot on!
One other thing what was really strong throughout the sessions: great job with praise after he got the cookies – it keeps the mechanics ‘cleaner’ but also builds in the praise because that is also useful at trials.Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I feel like we’re still in the pendulum swinging phase where sometimes our toy play is too crazy, so we put some structure on it, then it gets too structured so we need to swing the other way and hopefully some day end up in that sweet spot.>>
Totally normal! You’ll find that sweet spot, you are doing a great job of keeping this fun and clear for him!
>>In that last session I think we were both trying to be calmer and less rambunctious to avoid inciting the mini poodle in his crate on the far end of the room
Ah yes, we have an elderly mini poodle and my youngsters definitely are careful to avoid inciting him 🙂 Totally relatable LOL!
>>He is a fan of motion (not surprisingly) so we played the 2 toy relay back and forth to get him driving in on the retrieve and he definitely liked it.
I agree! He rocked it! This might be a subtle digression from the basic reinforcement procedures… he wants to ‘bound’ to the dead toy, so I think the next step I getting him to drive to it is to get his head down. That will continue to build drive, and it will add in weight shift (which is useful for future weaves, jumping, teeters, etc.) – have you ever done the reverse retrieve? It is a dead toy Countermotion game (which also builds lovely future countermotion skills on jumps). Since he is doing well with the 2 toy game here, you can play with the reverse retrieve. It basically looks like this, to get started (I think my puppy was 12 weeks old here):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Fpva_Em18Since you already have strong focus forward happening and the 2 toy chase game looks really lovely, this will be a really fun game for the dead toy. In this video, I kept the toy close to her (it was her first session) and then over time you can throw the toy further and further away – he will drive hard to the toy because he wants to get back to you quickly 🙂
I also eventually use it to proof the get it a little bit but we can do that after he is driving hard to it.
>>He’s a little odd (in a good way) in that he’s really not into possessing the toy. He really loves the act of tugging and talking about it (both with me and other dogs). When he “wins” he either tries to shove the toy back into your hands (or the other dog’s mouth) or just drops it.
I find it charming – looking at the adorable 8 week old video, he was all about DA MOMMA! And was crawling into your lap with the toy – so sweet! I love it! That is something I really love about the boy dogs!
>>1. Baby Ripley in his first tug and retrieve session at 8 weeks
This was the sweetest thing! Bringing the toy for tugs and hugs <3 what a good boy!
>>2. Ripley playing tug with our other dog’s butt last night – I swear I don’t make this stuff up. First the toy was sitting next to me and I put my hand on it, he was tugging and growling, even shifting his weight back, but not actually pulling back. I let go of the toy and it didn’t move an inch while he continued to pretend to tug. WTF 🤣? Then the Swissy sat on it and he did the same thing, pretending to tug, but not really pulling – he’s crazy!>>
OMG that was hilarious! The Swissy was so funny too: “I don’t see him, I don’t know him…” LOL! I am till chuckling LOL!
Great job here! Let me know what you think about the reverse retrieve!
TracyHi!
Yes, we will be looking at the application for the shhhhh – for the food, it is mainly used for moments when we need to reset the dog or when looping back to an anteceden. For the toy, I find that it helps focus the dog on the toy we want him to grab and not my hand, which we don’t want him to grab LOL!More coming when we post up the next set of games 🙂
TracyHello and welcome! Congrats on his big successes, that sounds amazing!!!!
Looking forward to seeing more of you and Sly 🙂
TracyGood morning!
No worries about the complaints of the 13 year old – our oldsters are allowed to complain LOL!Lots of great stuff here, he is so fun to watch!
With toys, we all talk more – so 2 thoughts: be as crisp with making the markers distinct as you are with the food.. add feel free to add more talking to the food play so it is more like toy play 🙂 It is a fine balance, right? We want to build in a conditioned response to talking to him, but we don’t want to get muddy. I try to to use my ramp up words (“ready” is my favorite too :)) then be quiet, do the thing – then when the dog is interacting with the food or toys, I praise and talk. Then after the reset ready – I try to be quiet. Note the use of “try” LOL! Thankfully dogs are GREAT at figuring us out 🙂Looking at the bite-the-toy tug cue: because you mentioned that he sometimes will get flesh and not just toy, we can play around a little here. Using the nice long toy you had, you can wait for him to focus on the part of the toy you ant him to grab, then say the cue (he already has a strong focus forward behavior happening and that will create a nice bit of feedback for you both: you’ll know where he is likely to grab, and he will figure out that if he is looking at the part closer to your hand, you are not going to give the cue: I bet the then changes where he is focusing because he seems super smart). And focus forward is a concept, and he is a concept type of fellow 🙂
When they goes well, you can make it into a bit of a discrimination: the grab part of the toy can get closer to your flesh and you can use the focus forward to help him figure out where to put his teeth.
I would start that in the relative calmness of sitting on the couch or something 🙂
Then, add speed: back to the long toy, get him more ramped up, then try it. And I like to also do this ‘but’ game with a toy in each hand: bite the first one, then out then bite the 2nd one in the other hand. That helps him learn to make the decision on where to grab more quickly and in more ‘real life’ settings.
The Catch looks good – fun! And he was definitely happy to chase. He is not as quick to bring it back – he goes from a run to get it down to a walk/trot on the way back. That might be partially a product of being indoors, or partially a reflection on the value of bringing it back when you are not moving. You can play some games to build the procedures up here:
You can do a catch or chase then as soon as he gets his mouth on it, you run away and when he gets the toy near you: the drop it as you are moving (this is harder, you might have to stand still when he gets to you) then using another toy, a chase the new direction. Wheeee! Then we fade your running out so he drives back, because driving back has a ton of value.Also, even when you are going to throw it again, try not to immediately take the toy away when he arrives back at you – that short time between the taking the toy and the throw or cookie might be a bit of a negative punishment (“I bring toy, toy goes away”) so you can tug for a bit when he arrives back at you – the drop it then tug again with the toy he just dropped (or cue engagement with another toy). Or, have the cookie ready so before you even pick up the toy he has dropped or move it away, the cookie is already in play, if that makes sense.
I also let the dogs win the toy a lot, to strengthen the bring-it-back-fast: when the toys get back to me, I play for a few second, and then don’t ask for the out. Instead, I give a victory lap cue (I say “go for a run” which is not very creative LOL!) so the dog can run around with it for a bit 🙂 It might sound counterintuitive but it really strengthens the drive back to me and also that cue is great for when training sessions are hard and the dog needs to clear his head.
Going to the dead toy – you had mentioned wanting to get more drive to this too, if I am remembering correctly. His focus forward is looking great! So, split the behavior a bit more and release sooner so he doesn’t look back at you . He is completely engaged in those first seconds but then looks back at you, and you can see the excitement relaxing a bit more than we want right now. So you can start with practically instant releases then ping pong some duration into it to maintain the drive to it. Eventually we will get it going with longer duration but for now, let the toy marker come very quickly so he can barely contain his joy at grabbing the dead toy 🙂 Also, have you ever played toy races with him? It is not a reinforcement procedure, per se, but it builds the love of driving to a dead toy 🙂 Let me know – I can dig up some videos 🙂
One last thought: Hand up and hand down might be too similar because the first part of the cue is identical – thinking about latency, he is going to have to wait for the second part of the cue so things might take longer. He will of course read context and your hand position, but for ultra clarity, I would consider dropping the hand from one of the cues so ‘hand’ only has one potential meaning and he can start the response instantly.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>So–leaving out the fact that I have atrocious aim on my throws–my idea of catch would be the same as yours. But I also purposely throw very far behind at times because I don’t want there always to be a visible cue on the ground behind the dog since won’t have one in the ring. Not to mention setting up the signal exercise so that there is always something behind my dog no matter where I make the turn would require way too much pre planning for me LOL So I’m thinking differentiating Catch with a word meaning it’s going way behind you so turn away from me to get what I throw might be useful? Don’t want them coming forward on a catch for those exercises….Thoughts??? >>
two ideas for you!
I use the turn back cue as part of the remote reinforcement process, so in that situation it is OK to let the dog see where you left the reinforcement outside the ring.
Separately, for the catch, yes – you can totally throw it waaaay back 🙂 The dogs do not come forward on the catch cues even if your throws are not great: as long as the throw is towards their mouths or behind them, they find it VERY efficient to stay there and wait for it (or turn back for it). My smallest pup lifts her head and looks up at the sky slightly behind her what I say catch – it is a reflection on where my throws are LOL! But… so stays where she is and does not come forward 🙂let me know if that makes sense!
TracyGood morning!
Your words make me laugh, and that is good – aye aye aye and yum yum and great choices! LOL!
>>I learned today that my puppy, unlike every other Lab I’ve ever had, will refuse to eat a piece of cheese that has significant dirt sticking to it. Fascinating! I edited out a few I learned today that my puppy, unlike every other Lab I’ve ever had, will refuse to eat a piece of cheese that has significant dirt sticking to it. Fascinating! I edited out a few minutes of him analyzing cheese and deciding not to eat it when it was too dirty — about 3 reps.>>
Are you sure he is a Lab and not a sighthound? Maybe a new sport mix? LOL! But it is good info – that way we can be sure, for now, we don’t use something kinda sticky in dirt or grass because it interrupts the training session (or toss it in a lotus ball) and separately, we teach him the joys of snarfing dirty treats off the ground 🙂 You can start with cheerios which have a nice history to them already: if he grabs it off the dirt, he can get rewarded with cheese fro your hand. I have found that doing this as a group helps too, because if a brother is going to eat the cookie while he is thinking it over, he is going to be more likely to just eat the cookie 🙂 And we really need him to eat it fast, for the sake of training efficiency.
>>I’m loving his engagement, which has been present from the beginning.
He is a super good boy!!! It is hard to remember that he is so young 🙂
>>My clicker timing, however, was all over the place. Eventually, I stopped clicking because I felt my timing was too muddy to help.
Yes, the clicker timing did get a little muddy. You don’t need to click all of these – I use it in the get it procedure to partially add in engagement quickly after getting the tossed treat, and also so we can sort out our mechanics (or grow a third arm :)) So when you play with the get it, continue with the clicker and isolate the mechanics:
start with cookies ready and your hands stationary in a neutral position (like on behind your back like you did here, or on your stomach because it is a little quicker and helps him learn to ignore the treats)
Say get it then wait a heartbeat then toss the treat
click
get it
toss
(all separated by a heartbeat – be extra obsessed that you don’t click or say get it or toss simultaneously. This is REALLY hard, I know! It will also feel slow at first, but that creates super clean mechanics. We all want to do all the things simultaneously but that gets muddy :))When you were working the ‘get it’, your click and get it were a little too simultaneous, so try to separate them. Your get it and hand movement were generally separate, and that is great!
Yes! You were really focusing on the distinct mechanics and that is so critical! You can add in some praise after he is eating the cookie – inserting it after the treat delivery and before the click or next marker. It might be easier with toys! We are going to add in praise because that is a useful marker as long as it doesn’t take over all the other markers LOL! You did add in a good boy after the yum yum at about :54 while he was eating, and that is perfect 🙂
Looking at the yum yum versus aye aye aye: I think the markers were more about location than movement of the cookie at first: the yum yum was consistently in front of your knees. And the aye aye aye was consistently off to the side – moving a little at the beginning and a lot by the end. And that is fine, as long as you remember where your yum yum position should be (that is a sentence I never thought I would write haha). And yum yum can also be off to the side, so remember to show him the difference 🙂
Great job here! I am looking forward to seeing how he does with the toys and combos!
Safe travels today!!
Tracy
