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Hi! Welcome!
I agree – this is so important! And we are still learning all about how to help the dogs but also the dogs are teaching us what they need. It is really fun! The first games are live – have fun!
TracyHello and welcome!
Yes, I agree that knowing when/how to deliver reinforcement will help but also he will learn to predict reinforcement in different environments so he will get much more confident at trials. We can also apply these to learning to ignore the judge, etc. He is doing really well and I am excited to see him work here!
TracyHello and welcome!!!!
You can apply reinforcement procedures to any of your critters! It sounds like you have quiet an amazing assortment (I admit to being biased towards wanting to see the Camels!!! I am curious to learn about their reinforcement hierarchies :)) We night need to tweak things for the horse/donkeys/camels but the reinforcement procedure concept applies to all animals.Have fun!!
TracyHi! Welcome to class! We officially begin today. Since you are able to post here, it means you have registered already.
Tracy
Good morning!
Kaladin is doing really well here! He doesn’t commit to the backside line til he is relatively close to the wing or wing+bar, so I watched it a few times to see what his question was – I think it is a shoulder question: the dog side shoulder is opening up more than needed, dropping back a bit more like a threadle. The connection for the backside is pretty strong, and we definitely don’t want you to point forward ahead of him… but I think that you don’t need to open your dog0side shoulder back as much unless your are using your outside arm, otherwise it looks a little threadley which could be why he wants to come in until your line of motion affirms that it is the backside.
The mechanics of shoulders are slightly different when the outside arm engages – it pulls the opposite shoulder forward, which changes the angle of the chest and pushes the dog away rather than pulls the dog in. Without the opposite arm, if the dog side shoulder drops back, then both shoulders are back and it looks like a threadle. And yes, I am walking around the RV trying to be sure I have a chance of describing it correctly. So the connection can be dog arm a little back and down by the top of your hamstring and if you think he needs more “push” to get out, you can add the opposite arm for exaggerated connection and shoulder pointing. I personally don’t think he needs that, so just a soft/low dog side arm, some connection, and now more motion.Let me know if that makes sense or if more coffee is needed.
You can add more motion now, jogging, building to running – which will help bring your dog side shoulder forward a bit and also the added motion will affirm the backside line even sooner.
Min had a similar question at :13 and :22 and :33 (and :41, she got past you and took the front) – and since she is super experienced, I think that Kaladin was reading handling too because he had the same questions, and not just doing puppy things. While walking, if that outside arm pulls back, she asked if it was a threadle (it is also possible both dogs can see the toy and are asking if it is in play) – either way, you can soften the shoulder drop back – stay connected like you were, say the verbal like you were and you can keep your hand more at your side and not as dropped back.
You can really see it at 1:04, perfect angle of the video: there is decel because you are walking (and there is some decel built into the threadle cues) and if you freeze it as she is about halfway between the wing and jump: both of your shoulders are back – dog side is far back like an open arm threadle, and the opposite shoulder is also a little back (I retract what I thought my be the looking for the toy, the toy is not visible here). As she passes you, she is convinced it is a threadle.
This is also a good angle to show what the opposite shoulder should be doing of you want to engage it – your opposite shoulder should be pointing to the outside wing, the entry wing for the backside. Otherwise, the upper body looks the same as the threadle cue.So, since we are obsessing on arms: you can have a little bit of low arm back to her when she is behind you and then let your dog side hand kind of track her collar and give a gentle swoosh to the backside as she is moving up the line. That will really make sure it doesn’t stay back or look Iike a threadle.
Also, more motion will help because on backside push slices we really don’t have a lot of decel built in, so that naturally shifts the shoulders forward more and doesn’t look like a threadle (which does have a little decel built in because there are collection cues there, as opposed to the backside pushes which are sends).
Let me know if that makes sense! Finding the sweet spot of shoulders will put the finishing touches on the independence 🙂
TracyHi!
This session looked terrific! You totally did it right 🙂 She is finding the backside wing perfectly. What she needs more of is the “turn right back to default to finding the bar” – she is all in GIDDY UP mode and continuing past the wing LOL! Your toy placement was perfect. The only suggestion I have for the toy placement is that as you continue to drop the toy in that same spot – don’t stop your motion. Keep moving forward as you drop her toy so she doesn’t default to taking the bar only if you decelerate or stop. So you will be walking towards the camera in this setup the whole time, until after she gets the reward that has been tossed back to where the bar would be.
For the next session:
For her, let’s make it all about “find the bar” rather than staying out around the wing – she has that one down perfectly! So rather than move further away to the different positions (which she did perfectly here) – stay in the position 1 and 2 lines of motion, but add that added bar in. And that way the bar being in the picture will get built into the behavior. Everything else remains the same: cue the backside like you did, toss the toy like you did, keep moving – the only new thing is that she will go over the bar to get the reward. That will help teach her that after getting to the wing, she needs to look for the bar even when da momma keeps moving :). And you can also balance in some front side too.Great job here! Let me know if the ideas make sense!
TracyPS – how is Breeze feeling?
Well, in this case, it was a legit alarm. Crammed in parking between 2 vehicles with their generators pointing at mine from a few feet away, plus my generator was on and my heat was one. So it was not a battery alarm, it was a true too-much-CO alarm. So 90 minutes of opening all windows and resetting every electrical system in the RV. Crawled back into bed with the windows open here in the 29 degree weather using jackets, blankets, and Hot Sauce to keep me warm lol!!!
Good morning! Nice work on the threadles and I am happy-dancing that you can still work outside in November!
Kaladin did really well and yes, he seems to prefer the visibility of the opposite arm. But I think he is also cuing off of motion, more on that below.
One question – either I have not had enough coffee (90 minutes between 1am and 2:30am spent figuring out how to clear and reset the RV’s CO alarm followed by 6:30am wake up!) or you were using different cues on the turn jump. I thought I heard left and dig – is dig the wrap verbal? This setup is more of a left because the collection is softer than the flatter angle, but that might be caffeine deprivation talking 🙂He was awesome on the threadles in part 1. No problemo!
In part 2 – there was a lot more motion (you were more decelerated in part 1) so he didn’t get the first rep when you were really running plus dig dig sounded different in delivery – more urgent, not as relaxed. Your next rep had decel That was more similar to the first sessions so he got it.A little pulled-him-off-the-line moment at 1:28 with the dig dig cue – you don’t need to rotate or move up the next line til you see him collect for the turn jump, so that might give you a moment to look for so you don’t feel rushed.
But then on the next rep there was motion and verbals and he was getting it nicely! Definitely keep building in more and more motion, steadily working up to the run. You can balance more for him, every other rep do something different – backside, tunnel, full wrap back, threadle, etc. Keep him on his toesies 🙂
Min did really well too, of course – she probably needs to see something different on each rep so that she is not patterning. I think she was not pattering but I let to keep the experienced dogs honest LOL! You can also add in tunnel sends with a setup like this 🙂 and wraps, and pushing to the backside of the turn jump, etc. Yes, a bit of pulling her off at :36 – that goes on the list of things to remember: work the collection of the turn jump before you move into the threadle for the US Open 🙂
She does do really well with your dog side arm swinging back. And Kaladin does really well with the opposite arm.
One thing to keep in mind when you make your decisions about threadle arms (after US Open lol!) is that she is a lot smaller than Kaladin so it is unlikely she will see the arm across your body as well as he does. You can use it with her, but dipping/swinging your dog-side arm back is so useful for her at the moment! And when talking to master Threadlers who run small Min-sowed dogs, they also feel that the littles don’t see the opposite arm as well when everyone is going full speed. So you might end up with a hybrid of both arms LOL for sanity’s sake 🙂 But it is just something to mull over for now, nothing needs to change anytime soon. And I am fully confident that you are able to handle things differently for each dog where needed!Great job here!
TracyGood morning! I really loved this session because it clarified the timing differences for each cue.
The first 3 reps looked really good . The differences in the one of motion and positional cue for the push circle wrap on the backside versus the slice at :12 were super clear!
On thing that really helped him on the slice with all the distance there – you set the line to it from the wrap wing, halving a moment of patience there as he exited the wrap to set the line: connect, verbal, motion – and as he started moving up the next line, you then added in sliding away to get past the bar.
Now, compare that to :16 where you said the slice cue but got the front side: no moment of patience there to set the line. You ran to the exit wing (which is not as parallel of a line of motion as you showed at :12) before he finished his full wrap and made a decision about the jump. Aha! I think we are on to something here!
At :24, that moment of patience as he exited the wrap was back – and he was perfection on the backside slice. Same at :28.But at :38 there was no moment of patience, and he took the front. You had the moment of patience as he exited the wing at :45 – he nailed the backside. And also at :51.
On the front side reps, you can have no moment of patience and run away and just use your jump cue 🙂 On those reps, like at :56, I think you might have been connecting more than he needed for the front side. You can use motion and verbal to draw him to the front before he exits the wrap wing.
So this is a REALLY useful session about cue timing – not just the verbals, but the physical cues too. For the backside slices, setting that line from the exit of the wing is critically important. I personally don’t love the word patience, but that is indeed what it needed LOL! We will call it a MOP: Moment Of Patience 🙂 It is really only one step, one heartbeat beat as you move up the line and connect hard there – and then you will see him shooting away to the backside at which point you can run to your next position. His independence is strong enough now that you can easily get where you need to be. You were getting it really nicely and it will be even easier when he has to jump full height.
The timing for the wing wrap MOP is as he is exiting, he needs you to set up the line. That will correlate to as he is landing from a jump if he is coming in from a jump, or exit of a tunnel.
The front side requires no such MOPs and you can turn and run and call the verbals 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here, have fun at the trial!
TracyHi! I start at about 15 feet wing-to-wing to help give the dogs time to process it. Then I shorten it – I think it was 12 feet in the video. And eventually it goes down to 10 or 8 feet.
TracyGood morning!
Your mowed area looks great! Hooray for tractors!!!
ASCA nationals sounds like a BLAST!!!!This was a good session to see what he understands and how to get position and verbals to work together for now. The verbals will get stronger when the physical cues (positional cues and motion) predict them, then it gets easier to fade the physical cues. I think his only questions came from when the verbal and physical cues were contradictory. For now, the proximity of the tunnel to the backside wing adds the distraction/proofing element. Eventually that will be easy for him, at which point you can go to proofing the verbal to override motion/position. Here are some specifics 🙂
The in in lead out looked great on the first 2 reps! Nailed it! The tunnel cue on rep 3 was verbal only, with your positional cue being the same as the in in cue that he had just done… so he didn’t tunnel. He needed a little bit of a change in positional/motion, even one step. The other thing you can do to help him out when you want the tunnel versus the in in is to line him up facing whichever one you want. At :19, he was lined up facing the in in, and the bar at #1 came down because the OK release and his position and your position said one thing (come to the backside) and then as he was jumping 1, you changed the info so he tried to adjust in the air. It is a subtle detail for sure, but he is reading All.The.Things and that is good 🙂
That is why at :28, when your arm moved, he went to the tunnel rather than coming to the backside even with the threadle verbal – the arm cue supported the tunnel in the previous reps and overrode the position, so he was trying to sort out what it all means. It think for now matching the verbal to the line up and position/motion will help with the tunnel distraction, before moving to fading the physical support.
You had a whole bunch of threadles where it looks like you moved closer and closer to 3, looked great!!!! Good boy!!!!
When you changed sides, he also did really well – the line up position came into play for him. Lining him up on a slice for he could see the backside wing or the front of the jump when you wanted it will help, but I think the a-frame was in the way 🙂
At 1:04 he was set up straight and I think he could see you between the uprights and not enough of the threadle position, so he took the front side. He got the threadle on the next one but was not set up to see 1 so he went past it. You can have him in his 2o2o on the bottom of the frame so he is lined up to see what you want over 1 🙂The rep at 1:14 was great threadling to 2 and he did a GREAT job of not taking the tunnel when you cued the wrap!!! And then he balanced nicely when you did want the tunnel. GOOD BOY!
Super session! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Yes, these short classes move fast, but you still have time! We will keep looking at vides for a few more weeks 🙂 The weather is holding strong for now, so fingers crossed we have more time before winter sets in 🙂
T
Hi!
The added distraction was probably useful here, similar to what you might see in terms of distraction at a trial. But I think the mechanics of the backside slices were also causing the questions here: when you got too far ahead and turned your shoulders, he took the front. What I mean by that is when he was one stride past the wrap wing, if you were up by the jump and moving laterally, turning a little (with arm up, shoulders turned), the physical cues looked like a front side cue and those overrode the backside verbal. That happened on the first rep, at :26 and at :38.
Ideally, you would be on a parallel path as he exited the wrap wing, so you don’t want to send to that wing and then be miles ahead because then you will have to curve your running path so you don’t run into the jump 🙂 When you were not as far ahead and able to maintain your parallel line of motion, like at :55 and on the last rep, he nailed it. And staying on the parallel path also allows you to maintain great connection!>> I found that by using extra eye contact and less motion, I could get him to do the correct cue!
Yes – when you had more eye contact and less motion, you showed more upper body rotation to the entry wing so it helped… but it also means you didn’t get to move much so that would put you too far behind on a big course. We can have best of both worlds: keeping you in motion while also getting him to the backside. I think the key is in your running line.
So even as you move further across the bar, start closer to the entry wing and move to the backside showing the parallel path. That line of motion supports the backside without having to go near it, and you’ll also be able to connect better without having to slow down. – I think that will make the difference for him, even with the birds 🙂Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I thought this went really well – the backsides looked incredibly independent, with you being able to cue from far away and move up the line, and he got it AND took the jump bar, no problem with commitment. Great job with the placement of reinforcement! I was wondering if he was doing so well because he was patterning, but nope – he had no trouble balancing to the front side then going to the backside on cue. Hooray!!!>> I forgot what a wrap was and only did a U-turn with Nuptse!!!!
Is wrap the backside circle wrap cue? If so, yes, you’ll want to keep moving through to the takeoff side of the jump.
But overall, really great session. You can add in the front crosses on the start wing now, to add even more challenge to the backside sending!
Tracy
