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Hi and welcome!!! I am excited to see you here!
About engaging with toys… what stuff does he like to put in his mouth and play with? Or chase? Other than food LOL! Sticks? Hoses? Paper towel roll? Let’s start with figuring out what he enjoys playing with already and then we can go from there. It will be fun!
Tracy
Hi!
>>for when you get back, not for while you are on vacation
I wish it was a vacation LOL! I am basically in charge of getting the course builds done on an 8 ring national event. What was I thinking LOL?!?!?!! And running 3 dogs, but I didn’t enter that much this year 🙂
Thanks for posting this! All of the balance reps looked good, so I watched it a few times to figure out why she threadled when she did, and why she didn’t when she didn’t 🙂 I think it has to do with you moving back away from the threadles for a step or two. When you pulled back with a little bit of motion, just 2 steps – she got it nicely at :08, :13, :51, :58.
When you used a parallel line of motion or only one little step – she did not threadle. Aha! We are on to something. And she came into the gap every time you decelerated or stood still. So I think she is relying on the moving back to threadle into the gap and reading all other motion as stay on the line.No problem, though! Since she did really well with the angles, you can go back to the angles and open them up a little so you can fade out the need to move back – just move on the parallel path slowly. Then we slowly close up the threadles to be ‘flat’ like they were here – it might take several sessions or longer, but that is fine! I suggest getting her happy with you moving at a jog or run on the angled threadles, then inch by inch closing them flat over several sessions.
>>By the way, I’m hoping to be able to get Annie through the gap without having to use 2 hands because the 2-hand cue is working amazingly well for the threadle wrap and I want to save that as a dedicated wrap cue. I’ll see if I can get a couple of those on video while you are away.
Yo ucan use a one-hand threadle! Or you can have different positions – where are your hands in the threadle wrap?
Nice work here!
TracyHi! Glad you had fun at the trial!
>> I could his slowing down a bit on some of the other runs.
Yes, the dogs get physically and mentally tired. It is hard to quantify it in agility, but in flyball we see each dog’s time instantly… and the first runs of the day, and the first run of each heat, are almost always the fastest. It is fascinating to see the times decrease! For example, I run 2nd in the pack: I have to time my release based on the speed of the dog running 1st in the pack, so I wait longer as the day goes on, so I don’t end up being early because the dog running 1st might slow down.
I make sure my dogs get sleep time during trial days, and I also feed them meals during the day – small meals, but meals 🙂 There is a study somewhere that found that there was a link between glucose depletion and self-control depletion!>>On the first Pairs run, the 2nd obs was the WPs. He had enuf of that set up! So he did a 18 sec wscape, then returned to run with a vengeance, (for clean!!!)>>
Weaves as #2 are a bummer! I love that he came back with a vengeance though!
>>The first run of the weekend was jumpers. It was N’s best and not good on my timing and not enuf verbal cues. At the first backside, I slowed down, because N was not ahead and I was going to have to go to the BS too! What should I have done differently?>>
I thought it was a good run and I LOVED your blinds! I also loved the crowd cheering 🙂
I don’t think you were too far ahead on that first blind… it was more that you pointed ahead of him while he was still behind you, so it turned your shoulders to the front side of the jump and that is where he went. In that situation, keep your arm back until he is passing you and use connection. Compare it to the next backside, where you were ahead but you kept your arm back and he got it really nicely 🙂Tracy
Hi! The foundations for the “don’t obsess on the food in my hands” are posted already in Reward. It is a matter of establishing what each procedure is. The next step comes in the next set of games, which is Nov 22 (break week is week 2 because of the US Open).
T
Helloooooo! I feel like I was just chatting with you on Messenger lol!!!!
Welcome back! This will be a fun adventure!!! I have found that clean reinforcement procedures create a cool cycle of high rate of reinforcement as an umbrella, which leads to high rate of reinforcement in the skills-specific stuff, which leads to a more relaxed dog in the ideal state of arousal… which brings up right back to the high rate/umbrella, high rate/skills, and on and on. A happy cycle!!
Your reinforcement list looks great! It might change a bit here and there but overall, it is really solid and we will refer to it often.
As an aside, several items on his list are also on my personal list. I, too, would work hard for steak (cooked, though), cheese and parm crisps 🙂See ya soon!
TracyHi! Welcome to class, it is great to ‘see’ you here!! I totally remember you and Hemi – it has been way too long 🙂 And congrats on your new puppy!!!!!!
Customer support is up to their eyeballs sending seminar confirmations, sorry for the delay. You can upgrade to a working spot if you like – 9 weeks is great for the very basic foundation stuff, but the class will quickly go past the puppy stuff (I recommend MaxPup for that!). You can do some of it with your new baby and then switch to Seeley 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHello and welcome! The dogs that make us re-think everything are the best dogs 🙂
I am excited to see your boys in action! And yes… after the Open. I usually don’t have the break week happen in week 2, but it seemed to make sense here LOL!!!See you soon!
TracyHi!
>>River is better than Chief for some reason!>>
It is probably generational 🙂 With Chief’s generation, we did a lot of TAKE ALL THE THINGS IN FRONT OF YOU (especially because he is little) and not a on of emphasis on verbals. With River’s generation, we trained a lot more of a lot of different things, so I am not surprised she did really well!
She was definitely thinking hard on the reps where you were standing still! She was super successful. She slowed herself down to process the verbals, because that was the only info she had when you were stationary – good girl! So nice!
Adding motion was harder because you mentioned, the motion was not too specific. I think one thing that can raise the success rate is to change your line of motion so that the wing and the tunnel are both equally visible without her having to cut in front of you for either (in this setup, bringing the cone closer to the camera would give her a sweet line to both).
It was hard to see from the camera angle, but on the motion reps when you were cuing the wrap but moving forward, she would have had to run in front of you/across your feet (at :46 and 1:01 for example – your line was blocking the wing and she was not comfy cutting in front of you). She does pick it up but you can see that she is moving in front of your line when ideally she would be more parallel to it, if that makes sense.And that can be the same for when you add the jump – she had to run in front of your line and we don’t want her to cut in front of you, so the reps where you turned your feet made more sense to her (like at 1:50). She did get more comfy with it, but then she got into the habit of cutting in front of the line like at 2:27, a little patterned to it and it was hard to convince her otherwise for a few reps LOL! (couldn’t really hear the verbals but I think that is what was happening there and at 2:47 and 2:56 too?)
So with the jump, you can set the sequence slightly differently by moving the cone to about where Chief was in a down at 1:09 🙂 that way you can continue the hard challenge of motion that is not pulling or sending too much, but she can see each on her line and will have to decide which one based on verbal without cutting you off. Angling the cone that way also will add more speed, which makes it more challenging too (but also simulates the exact angle we see on course for this challenge).
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyWelcome! I think the goal here is to get the reinforcement procedures firmly established, then we look at applying them to behaviors and trials. Whenever we are fighting with the dog about something, it always comes back to reinforcement procedures. And then when they are in place? Everything is so much easier 🙂 Have fun getting started!
TracyHi and welcome!
Thank your for the update! Dr. Overall is the best 🙂>> but I still have the overarousal or stress eating and grabbing behavior. I’m hoping that clear knowledge of how reinforcement is going to be delivered will help.
We can definitely look at this!!! Try to keep an actual spreadsheet of antecedent to the behavior – literally, what happens right before it. And also it might be a list of things that happen before it (I look at umbrella success rates as triggers for that stuff).
>>I’m still having issues if I disconnect after a sequence that he’ll go grab something. I don’t mean to disconnect. I thought I reinforced a behavior, but at some point, I actually do have to reset a jump:-)>>
You might have reinforced the behavior for sure! But there might be other things in play: low overall success rates, self-control depletion, perceiving that disconnecting to reset a bar or something is a negative punisher (punishment is in the eye of the dog, not us LOL!) or anything, really… so for now, insert a behavior into your loop: do the thing, reward him, then insert something to do as you reset: get on a mat, go in a crate, hold his collar, something that you can then reinforce him for and then carry on to the next part of the session. It is a big of management as we try to sort out his needs 🙂
>> The marker words like snacks, Get It, Shhh, Catch, will replace the marker like “yes” or the click?
Yes and no 🙂 Nothing really replaces a click, if you are using a click… but we don’t always need to click. I use the clicker for a precision behavior, so I might click then use the marker. If I am going to throw the toy out ahead? Click then “get it” If I want the dog to come to me for a cookie? Click then snacks. Or come to me for a tuggie? Click then BITE. We work more of this in the next set of games.
As for yes… it depends on how you use it. You can use similarly to a click: yes then reinforcement marker. Or, you can use it as just a general praise but not paired with positive reinforcement (this is what I try to do consistently now – yes is praise but not a reward mark(. Otherwise the dogs just come to us every time we say “yes” even when we want them to keep doing the thing (ask me how I know haha!)
>>Then for Catch. . . I’ve already taught them that Catch means something is getting tossed to your mouth either at my side or somewhere else. So, I think it means be prepared to catch it with your mouth. So, should I have a different word for things getting tossed to them away from me?
I might need to see a video to see what you mean, by if ‘catch’ means: Stay where you are, cookie coming to your location’, then it is probably fine.
>>Is there a list possible words to use for things? My creativity level is a little low right now:-)>>
We can start one in the forum!
>>ALSO, I LOVE the word snacks!!!!!
Ha! Everyone loves eating and saying snacks. And I have a marker for Hot Sauce for a certain reset and style of reward delivery: “ice cream” LOL!!! (she comes back to me and licks string cheese lol)
T
Good morning!
>>Hypothetical situation … handler did way too many threadle reps (like 12 on the angled setup and 12 on the traditional setup). She knows she should set a timer for future sessions so she doesn’t overwork her dog. How would said handler decide what to post for feedback? Say, for example, this handler had trouble with balance on the angled setup, but finally got it, then had trouble with the threadles on the traditional setup, but also eventually got it.>>
Hypothetically, with a herding dog… you are probably going to get “all threadles, all the time” so that might be why said handler had a hard time getting balance then got balance so had a hard time getting threadles back if I am reading this correctly LOL! So, for the next session, I strongly encourage no more than 2 reps of the same thing in a row – balance every other rep, or every 2 reps. And separating the angled setup from the traditional setup.
So for feedback, if the threadles went well on the angled setup and the balance was hard after a lot of reps – the answer is more frequent balance. For the traditionals, it is was hard to get the threadles – post those up and let’s see what happened.And BIG HOORAY for ZIP!!!!!!! That is awesome!!!!! Congrats 🙂 I am doing a happy dance for you and Zip!
Tracy
Hi!
>>Just a word about the lotus hand changes — I had to work hard to train myself to do that! When I was first training Yuki, she would jump up at the hand with the lotus or other treat. To save my hand being attacked, and get her to focus on the task and not the food, I taught myself to change hands so the hand cuing the dog was always empty.>>
That is actually one of the reinforcement procedures we look at in the Reward class: teaching the dogs when they should look at or approach the reward in your hand, and when to ignore it completely 🙂
>>Given my rather long history doing this, is there any other reason, besides my cue timing, that I should not be changing hands? Can I improve my cue timing by switching the lotus sooner? Other ideas? I just really like not having the reward in my cuing hand…>>
The hand-switching is a distraction to the dogs, because that hand motion could be a cue, or not a cue… so it makes it harder for the dogs to know where to look and they might ignore the subtle hand cues, thinking we are just moving the reinforcement (plus we end up being late :)) So, you can do two things:
– run with nothing in your hands on sequence work, have it in your pocket then dig it out as she is finishing 🙂
– separately, we will teach the dogs to NOT attack your hands. I am not sure if Yuki still does that, but she is a perfect candidate to learn that present of the food does not mean that food is going into her tummy LOL!Then you can merge the two together. Being able to have food in your dog-side hand can really open up precision reinforcement opportunities, so it is worthwhile to teach the dogs how to let us have the reward there while protecting our flesh 🙂
T
Good morning!
>>Plus when I am running on course I don’t have the inside arm back as much. It was just showing up in training when I slowed things down
I agree – we see the tiny details of mechanics when we take out motion. And this move is definitely a high motion move on course! But it is also good to work out the mechanics of connection because connection with smaller dogs is different than bigger dogs (harder, in my opinion – it is just easier to see a 21″ tall dog!)
I definitely think more arm is better for Min – when you over-connect, the shoulder drops back too much and looks like her threadle. As soon as you closed it more – easy peasy! Yes, I did just write ‘over-connect’, who woulda thunk there was such a thing! I think the arm cue, that gentle low swoosh, will actually do the connection work for you and you won’t have to use your eyes as much – eye connection rotates the upper body, which is generally helpful but not for Min, in this case.
Also, one other thing I see here – timing the cues. In terms of timing – she should be hearing/seeing the backside cue before she exits the wrap wing. You were waiting til after she was fully around and that was late so either she took the front or you pushed her back out. You had a really great angle at 1:20, she was a full stride past the wing exit and already looking at the front when you started the cue, so she took the front then stared at you very judgementally LOL!!! Girl dogs… HA! So, think of entering the wing wrap as being in the air over the previous jump: you can start giving her the info as she is wrapping so she knows where to go immediately upon exit.
Holding your pants got the shoulders closed forward and that totally helped! You were compensating a little by moving your running line closer to the entry wing or adding a step – but that might jut be because you felt a little weird holding your pant leg LOL!
The good news is that Kal has reached a Masters-level of training too on this skill, so you can handle things for him the same way you do with Min (I find it good for sanity to do things the same way with my dogs :)) Like Min, I think the low arm swoosh and earlier timing will help (the earlier timing in particular, because he has a big stride and it is still getting bigger).
The other thing with him is that you can progress the independence more slowly (baby dog!) – a couple of sessions of you moving to the center of the backside bar til he is really solid for several sessions. Then you can start to inch your way further over. That will raise the success rate overall as you get further and further across the bar.Both dogs were terrific with the balance reps and the front side wraps! Nice!!!
Well done here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>So dark, so soon now!
So true!!! I like daylight and warm weather!!!
Both dogs did well here! I think the #1 thing to make things perfect as you get further away from the backside jump is to emphasize the placement of reinforcement. When you were close to 2 and threadling or doing the FFC, they were good about taking the jump but I would still toss the reinforcement to the landing side of 2 for both of them: it will strengthen their commitment for when you move further away, and it will also help River keep her head down and jump the center of the bar more – she was a little inverted in her form and also jumping all the way across the bar near the exit wing, which usually indicates a late commitment decision.
River is also a master of predicting the release, so be careful of releasing at the same time as the arm cue for the FFC or threadle – she is too darned smart and will think the arm cue is the release LOL!
On the FFCs – both dogs read these really well – you were early on the first rep with both of them, so remind yourself to be patient and let them get closer to the wing. This is especially true for Chief who takes more strides because he is little – it is so hard to be patient while standing there! LOL!!! You did a forced blind on the 3rd rep with River – I personally love those types of blinds (I am sure you are not surprised hahaha) but they are easier when you move into them rather than starting from a lead out.
I think you can challenge them both a bit by tucking yourself more fully behind the wing, so only your eyes and part of your arm is visible. You were already doing it on some of the reps and they seemed fine with the challenge. And, you can totally add in a verbal – yo u were quiet on the release which makes the physical cue the only info. I use my threadle verbal because it is the same behavior for the dog, or you can call their name.Lining them up on a more severe slice facing the entry wing of 2 can help make it even easier! And I don’t think either dog had any distraction issue with the tunnel discrimination, that is great!
Both dogs did well on the threadles – the verbal is helpful for them, and they both seem to have a stronger understanding of commitment after threadles especially when you are further away. For example, on the 2nd rep of River’s day 2: look how independently she went and found 2! Yay!
So keep working the placement of reinforcement on landing of 2 for those – as you got further away, like at 2:32 and 3:04, she lost some of the commitment and was heading to where the reinforcement was placed (further up the line, closer to you). Having the reward consistently on landing of 2 as you move away will help her be super independent on those too. Same for Chief – the further from 2 you are, the more you will want to toss the reward to landing side of 2. You can toss it as soon as you see his head turn to the jump: that will mark the correct choice and allow the reward to be visible as he lands and as you move away.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>We did a bit of running between the tunnel and jumps in the last exercise and Kieko stayed parallel, didn’t try to take the outside (off)jump. Nice.
Terrific! We are seeing this challenge a LOT lately!
>> I think there may still be another set we missed, but I was pleased with my girl and what she did>>
She did really well! I have some timing ideas for you and some mechanics but overall this went super well. There is more about the brake arm in the threadle game before this one.
One thing that went REALLY well was the difference in your verbals/handling when you wanted her to go go go versus turn : Great job changing your volume and intensity of the verbals on the big send versus the soft turn! You can also use your left/right soft turn verbals, rather than a softer over cue.
One little mechanics thing (we will work on this in the Reward class too 🙂 – when running with the reward in your hand, don’t switch it from hand-to-hand, just leave it wherever it is. You were switching it to the other hand before giving the turn cues, and that moment of switching made your cues late. I am not sure you even realized you were switching it LOL! so you can also have it in your pocket for handling – we don’t need a precision reward for these types of games, and so the slight delay of digging it out is fine 🙂
She responds beautifully to that little brake arm! You can give it a tride earlier: after she exits the tunnel, slide the brake arm in when she is looking at the jump but before she can make a decision about how she wants to jump it. That way all of the soft brake arm cues are done before takeoff so when she lands, you can be cuing the next thing. At :12 you were pretty close to that, and the other reps were one stride later – at :27, :50 , 1:13 and 1:33 , you are doing the arm as she is lifitng off so she reads it, but after landing so she is pretty close to the pinwheel jump
Then you can release the brake arm when she lands and you want her to get on the big line again – at :27 you had it up as she was also approaching the next jump, which you don’t need in that situation (but works really well when you also need a turn on the next jump as you did on the last rep!)
She had no trouble with the ‘out’ wing! The tunnel exit was pointing towards it a bit, so on the next rep when you didn’t want it she exited the tunnel looking for it (:42) – be sure to use turn cues before she enters the tunnel so you can cue the exit. I spend a lot of time obsessing on what the dogs se a the tunnel exit so I know what to tell them before they go in 🙂
>>When I did the threadle motion I did something strange on the first go-round>>
1:15 was a FC to the tunnel not a threadle – a really nice FC! You were a in great position so the FC made sense and your muscle memory took over.
1:35 was a really nice threadle! What worked really well there was NOT releasing the soft brake arm, so she was ready for the threadle (versus at :28, where we wanted her in extension over the jump after the soft turn so you can handle it with the dog side arm ).
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
