Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
This session went well – we can see what she is really confident with and what she wants more help with 🙂One thing I notice is that, depending on the skill, she is needing varying degrees of motion to help. So the next session can focus on getting rid of the motion and seeing if you can emphasize verbals only.
Going to the tunnel versus the wings at the beginning went well! She needed a foot step or two to help, but not much.She was correct at :22 to take the jump on the other side of the tunnel 🙂 Jump is a forward verbal, you said jump, she took the one on the line she was on. Coming in to take the other jump would have needed a strong wrap cue on the wing and a lot of motion change on your line. Having 2 jumps and the tunnel out there does create a 3-way discrimination, so hopefully she got rewarded for that one 🙂
Something similar happened at :26 when she took the tunnel – You were blocking her at line moving forward getting ready to throw so she took the tunnel. Ideally she would not have taken the tunnel but we want to give her clear lines for now. You moved over a bit on the next rep at :32, but you can see how she had to threadle in front of you a bit to get to to the jump. So to make the lines clearer, you can move the wing over so it is more centered between the jump and tunnel and then you won’t have to move as much or worry about your position on the line.
At :42 she did have a discrimination error, coming in for the jump rather than getting the tunnel. She got it at :47 but you moved into it, plus when you added the backsides she needed a decent amount of motion help. You can revisit the tunnel versus backside without the wing before it, just holding her collar, saying the verbal, then letting go. That way you can isolate the verbals a bit more. You can start the session like that, then add in wrapping the wing – but with the wing wraps, try to handle very little and just work it as mainly verbals.
The other thing that can help the backside there is to angle the wing so the bar is closer to being parallel to the tunnel. Having the bar a bit perpendicular to the tunnel sets up a 3-way discrimination (front of bar, back of bar, tunnel) so she might be more successful if she only has the options of backside of bar and tunnel. Let me know if that makes sense 🙂Nice work here!!!
TracyNice!!! Sounds like a great run! Bummer about the ending. And one thing I liked about most of the Cynosport courses were that they were set better than they were mapped, meaning the judges really put nice line in the ring for the dogs (only one course could have been set SO MUCH BETTER and that was Steeplechase Semifinals – you nailed that one!)
Hi!
Good questions here!
It would be nice to NOT have to add more verbals LOL!! I am not sure that she totally thinks left/right are turns on the flat here in agility. I think her turns on the tunnel exit had more to do with your timing of the right cues, and also a little more value being needed for the go lines. Looking at the timing, your right cue was too soon at :09 and :18 (she was in the tunnel hearing it) plus you were turning as she was entering the tunnel. At :36, it sounds like it started before the tunnel, so she was totally correct to apply it to the tunnel exit.
So you can try giving her a go on the tunnel exit, then a jump cue, then the right verbal – the timing would be go (before she enters) then jump jump jump as she is exiting then when she is maybe halfway between the tunnel and jump (for now) – the right verbal. With more experience and timing, I think it will be easy to apply the right/left cues to the jump.
I also recommend using go go go for the full go lines, rather than a jump verbal – jump tends to mean a slight collection and go can emphasize the big extension.The only other suggestion is to make the reinforcement more obvious, so she doesn’t have to look for it. You can place something bigger, or throw the reward – that can help her drive to the line without collecting or looking back at you.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
This video was mainly about threadles, kind of combining the threadle exercise with the backside-at-2 threadle stuff.>> Tried yur suggestions. Nuptse is not responding!
Gotta change what is going on. At any distance, he cannot slice the jump w/o my handling!>>I agree – I think we need to break it down and do the training side of it for a bit, rather than trying to emphasize the handling. You were doing a lot of different things in this session (threadle slice, threadle wrap, adding motion) so he was relying on handling rather than being able to discriminate the verbals.
And since we don’t want him to rely on handling to be able to get the correct line and commitment to the jump, here are a couple of ideas:
– separate the threadle wrap and the threadle slice into different sessions, so he can really process just the one threadle type a a time. You can balance it with front side of the jump, rather than the other type of threadle.
– for now, take out motion into the threadle, just go stand in position and don’t move until he has landed from jump 2 🙂 We can shape him to look for the jump. Start really close to the jump and only very gradually move yuor position away from the jump. This will take several sessions, because we really want to build up a big reinforcement history for him looking for the jump without you moving.
– when he does take the jump, you can toss the reward (after he is in the air). Or, you can have it placed out there in advance and use a get it verbal (rather than motion) to indicate permission to get it (if you think he needs permission LOL!) And when the reward is out there, you definitely don’t need to handle to it, we want him turning to look for the line.
>> I thought that I should try fencing to show him the path.
I am not a huge fan of fencing because it is too massive of a visual (makes it harder to fade out) and also limits his options. I prefer to break things down and shape the behavior, so that he can get it right easily without the risk of running into a fence LOL! If we are going to use a visual, I would rather use a placed reward as the aid, because it is easy to fade and also makes for quick reinforcement 🙂
So, since this is a hard one for him, I think breaking it down and shaping it over the course of a few sessions (standing still for a couple of sessions, then adding motion, then changing position) – only adding tiny bits in each session if his success rate is high, He is super smart and will figure it out really quickly 🙂
Let me know what you think! We can get his threadles on track pretty quickly 🙂
TracyGood morning! Hopefully the storm is over and decent weather is returning!
With the switch aways, it is great that you have a verbal already and also he understands the skill. So now you can take it to the next level, which is fading your motion across the rear cross line. Keep the verbal and the upper body/arm cues – but fade out the motion of moving along the line to just a little bit of a foot turn (and eventually you can fade that too!). That will allow you to send him away so you can drive waaaaay head up a line. It also sets up layering opportunities and I think you will find it useful in Gamblers too!!See below for more threadle ideas!
Tracy
Hi!
I agree that convincing the dogs to stay while we set up the FFCs and the threadle position is often the hardest part here!
>>I don’t think it had to do with the distance but more with either the fact that I’m behind the jump or maybe the motion of setting up for the FF?
I don’t think it was the distance or your position, I think he wants to move on your hand signal when you put your hand down into position, there is a tiny wrist motion. That makes sense as there might be some hand movement built into the release for all of us – oopsie LOL! – you can see it a little when he stood up early on the 2nd rep , and also at 1:10 when he released just befoe your “ok” when your hand moved, you can see that wrist motion. He understands that when you are in position, standing still and that wrist kind of ‘flicks’ – it is go time LOL!
So when you do your rewards for the stay or releases, make sure your hand is in position for a second or two, long enoguh to praise like you did on a lot of the reps, to separate the hand cue from the verbal release.
He is reading the forced fronts pretty darned perfectly! Love it! You can definitely add the verbal and also play with starting your rotation sooner – your timing is really good here but you can press your luck maybe by a stride.
Throwback might feel werid but you are doing it nicely at 1:12 and it totally changes the exit line when you wanted the tighter turn on the “not the tunnel” line 🙂 To make it feel more comfy, you can try a smaller, lower motion? But overall it looked great!You can also move the FFC further away from jump 2 now – but also work the threadle position. I think the threadle position will feel more comfy for you than the throwback and will also get a great turn.
Lovely work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> My worry in watching the video is maybe my arm was a bit TOO much?
Definitely not too much – I am not sure they saw it on some reps where you turned your shoulders away from them. The brake arm can be a little more visible and happen sooner.
>> I don’t want them to think it’s a threadle arm, especially Sole who tends to be most responsive to verbals.
They should not have trouble differentiating – the arm cues re very different looking. The brake arm is low (down by your hips or lower) and your palms are down, and it is a soft physical motion usually in conjunction with the dog-side arm. The threadle arm is much higher, usually up by our shoulder dog side shoulder, palm to the dog – that drops the dog side shoulder way back and adds in a bit of rotation as you mention. More on both threadle cues and soft brake arms next week 🙂 Thy are both becoming vital parts of handling courses nowadays.
>> I don’t think I’ll see anything like that at the Open, but ACK premier courses seem to love the scenario where they are taking a jump straight on and need to go 90 degrees for a threadle.
Yep, those ‘flat’ threadles are popular in Premier! I am not sure if we will see that at the Open, but we will likely see backside threadles. And I would bet you that we will see backside threadle wraps too.
They all did really well on the video! And yes, the balance is really important so we know if they are processing cues, or just patterning 🙂
>>I think Nikko’s run by the jump was because I was in her landing zone – she will tolerate a lot from me, but that was maybe a bit too much!
Yes, she chose not to run into you there! On that “german” style turn to the weaves (serp-blind) – you will ideally want to be moving past the wing, straight forward, before the dogs take off. You were tending to be on their line too much – running parallel to the bar then blind crossing. That widens the line and eats time. Presto and Sole were chill about it but Nikko voiced her outrage LOL! You widened her line to the weaves at :59 so her normal vocalizations changed – she totally shrieked at you LOL!! Too funny.
I thought your best position off the line was at 1:20 and that also got a really nice turn!With that in mind, it is not always possible to get off the line properly so that is a good place to work on flipping them away to the weaves like a rear cross, rather than the blind.
On the GO lines – I think all of your timing of the verbal cues was spot on – early and often 🙂 They all did perfectly. The only error I saw was when Nikko took the weaves when you did not want them, but that might be because you had not quite turned for the right and your were still facing the poles (:52).
For the turns on the jump, we can obsess on the tiny details of timing 🙂
In general – when you deliver the ‘right cues (verbal, physical cues), the girls collected before the jump and turned nicely. You can see it with Nikko at :35, and :56 and with Sole a 1:17 and 1:27. The cues were later at :47 and 1:12, they came closer to takeoff so the decision was made and they were wider on the turns.
I think with Presto you were trying to get commitment, so the cues were late at :08 and :21, coming at liftoff. So if he was not committing when the right cues were happening at landing of the previous jump, then you can work the skill without the off course distraction ahead and throw rewards. It sounds like you had a ‘hup’ cue happening for him, quietly? But you can try replacing the hup cue with the right cue, if right means “take the jump and turn right”.
>> I will try to use the “spare” time to write up reminders to bring with me to the Open
That is on my list to do this week too! I need to remember to stay closer to the line for the 2 young dogs and just run rather than use an arm or lateral distance.
Have fun! Great job here!
Tracy
>>>Sorry! I should have mentioned this when I posted. I set both dogs up poorly on purpose from the startline to test their understanding of the verbal on some of these. Kippy I set up because i know he likes to around that jump if he’s not set up on a slice. Emmie it’s more to test the understanding of the verbal because she’ll take that first jump. Maybe it was too much for the sessions for both dogs. Trial setting I would definitely be setting up dogs on slice at the startline jump and not staring them down the middle lol.
Ah, got it! That position does test understanding, but it also requires almost a serpentine cue or a bit of recall to heel to get them to understand that they should take 1, when you present the pressure of the backside cue for 2 – it opens up the line of going past 2. So I don’t think they were incorrect, necessarily, to take it – a jump verbal as the release might help?
T
Good morning!
> I feel like I’m constantly trying to walk that fine line of waiting till she can think vs waiting and just pissing her off even more. What I did notice was the few times I waited her out until she stopped barking AT me, she focused forward and was able to do it.
Yes, that is a good question! My general philosophy is this:
– if we are teaching something brand new, try to teach it in a quiet way where she is less stimulated.
– if we are working on something that is not as new or needs to be transferred to the trial environment, it is important to move the skill into the trial state of arousal she will be in.So, since this is not particularly a new thing, it is a variation on stuff she already can do – we need to work it in a trial state. And thanks to Facebook stalking – oops, I mean *research* haha – she barks while she runs.
So….. let her bark during these games. Don’t wait for quiet. Let her bark and be aroused, so she learns to process the verbals even while she is singing.
And if she makes a mistake or two, you can help by moving her closer to what you want or adding a little body language, but I would still ask her to be thoughtful in drive: meaning, barking but listening LOL!
Waiting for her to be quiet and focus forward might be fine for initiating the games and teaching new stuff, but it is going to give you a false sense of her understanding of the skill for when you will need her to process the cue. So…. bark bark bark bark LOL!!!!
Looking at this video, she did just fine barking! Sure, waiting for quiet and focus forward gives you a better sense of what will happen but I think her success rate was strong enough with the barking that you can continue with the barking (unless you edited out failures).
And she is going to bark when you add motion so might as well build the barking in here. And the barking is not a problem – many of the best agility dogs to have ever walking this planet bark while they run, so she is in excellent company!
For this game, you can changed the wing out for a jump and also add a wing wrap to get into it, to add a bit of motion (just walking at first). As always, keep her success rate high! She is doing really well 🙂
>>>My biggest takeaway from this game is her willingness to come back to my hand time and time again and yes she did get multiple cookies just for that.
Yes, she loves the game 🙂 And getting the reset cookies helps keep the success rate high, which is part of the reason she is happy to keep coming back to you, so it is a really nice cycle 🙂
>> This is the stuff that’s going to make or break us when I try and do those hard ASCA elite gambles on top of just getting her more independent and off me so she doesn’t get frustrated with my turtle pace running around the course, LOL!!
Yes, definitely should help those difficult gambles! But will also help the challenges that are coming into regular Masters classes and Premier – it is amazing how much we are going to need distance skills and verbals, based on the evolution of the course challenges!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Good work on these and good for you for looking at the video between sessions!!!
Presto – night and day indeed! You were definitely a little late on the first session (thus the wide turns and the off course).
Better in the second session for sure… but you can still be earlier (I know, I am a pain haha) – as soon as his front feet hit the ground from the blue jump (#1) he needs to hear and see the next cue – you were moving in forward to the red jump and using decel to get it, so he was responding but the right can be sooner and you can move away as if serping the green jump.The verbal is still happening at takeoff which is still a little late.You are 1000% nailing the timing of the Go Tunnel verbals and physical cues – as soon as he lands from that blue jump, you are pretty clear about what you want LOL!!! So use that same timing for the right turns, but with the verbal and less running to the jump to decel – send and leave.
When you flipped it, he did a great job on the go line after the tunnel! A little more connection on that first rep can help (where he missed the jump) as you mentioned, but he got it nicely on the 2nd rep!
Nikko’s turn:
You had more send and leave on the right turns, my only suggestion is the verbal can be a tiny bit sooner (landing from blue jump). We can add a ‘brake’ arm (small, low opposite arm) as you send and leave to tighten it up, then time it to see if it is faster or not 🙂 She was a bit wide at 1:49 so I think you might be able to tighten that and have it be faster, without having to decelerate.
Her Go Tunnel lines were great!
On the full sequence – when you do the blind on the landing of the 3rd jump, be sure you are passing the wing of the jump so that she doesn’t have to go around you. The rest looked great!
She did well on her 2nd session too – I liked your send&leave on the first session better than running into the right turn jump for collection – it put you too much in the way on landing of the 3rd jump.Sole’s first session was interesting to see! The timing of your right cues was early enough that she was collecting to turn – but then you were still facing forward a bit so she had some questions. The best turns were when you decelerated – at a distance in the first session, and close to the jump in the 2nd session. So since you will not want to decelerate on those massive US Open courses, definitely try the brake arm with her. As you are saying your right cue, your outside arm comes up nice and low (hip height) and gets used as kind of a ‘whoa’ cue along with the dog side arm. This gets a nice soft turn collection without you needing to decelerate.
She had a little question on the layer out of the tunnel at 3:06 (looked t the green jump) bit then got it nicely on the next rep and on the full sequence at the end.
So overall – yes, time your verbals nice and early but play with adding that brake arm so you don’t have to slow down with any of the dogs to get the soft turns 🙂
>> And it was nice with him that the “right” verbal was enough and I didn’t need to call his name or extra hand movements.>>
When you can get up close and personal to the jump, doing it with verbal and decel is great! When you want to be further away and/or not use decel – highly recommend that soft brake arm 🙂
I do a bit of brake arm in the videos, and I can also dig up more examples if this doesn’t make sense without visuals 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi again!
She is reading the FFCs well! For her, try more of a slice line up at jump 1 as well – if you watch her from landing of 1 to entry of 2 on both sides, she has to make an extra turn to get to 2 and a slice set up will eliminate that (she will be able to drive straight to it).Plus, she will be less likely to run around the jump like she did at :19 when you leaned in a bit (you were fine to lean in, but it doesn’t really show the line to 1 based on her line up spot).
At :25, you took a tiny tiny step back so she took the front of the jump – you were saying the verbal correctly, but motion is still very powerful 🙂
She did well reading these as you moved your position further away too!
She had a harder time reading the threadles – mainly because she could see your body between the uprights – that position overrode the verbal and arm. When you moved to a position more on the wing at 1:24, she got it nicely! And lining up on a slice will help too – her line up positions had her facing directly to the wrong side of 2,so you had to handle the backside more. If she is slicing and all she is facing is your threadle position, you will have a much easier time convincing her that it is not the front of 2 🙂 That will be especially useful when you move further away up the line.
As with Kippy, I think she is better with the threadle too! The FFC is a good tool to have but I am thinking you will end up using the threadle more. As you move up the line and change your position, keep that entry wing in mind to center you position off of (rather than showing the center of the bar at all, positionally). That position on the wing is an indicator of the threadle before you release from the line so you should be able to get even smoother lines.
>> Where she struggles sometimes is not taking the jump when I’m leaving to get down the line. So I think my step might need to be adding me leaving with more and more motion while she takes the jump.>>
One thing you can do is watch her head – don’t leave as she rounds the backside wing, watch her head and when you see her turn her head to look at the bar, that is your cue to leave 🙂 And in training, throw a TON of reinforcement to the landing spot so that she learns to ignore your motion in order to maintain her commitment to the threadle jump.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> in a trial setting I’m almost 100% releasing him while I’m motion off the startline.>>
For planning (especially with the Open in a few weeks) I guess the main question is: what are his start lines like at a trial? If he is a bit iffy about holding his stay, you can keep training this but you can also look at leading out a lot less and doing a really independent backside push, then running through on the landing side for a ‘German’ or a serp exit. More on the super independent pushes coming next week 🙂 These threadle openings require a good enough stay to allow us to comfortably get into position and if he leaves early, you risk getting the front side.
A couple of ideas about his session here:
He is NOT a fan of the forced front cross LOL!!! So, based on how much better the threadles were, you can abandon training them and just work the threadle openings. If he is good at threadle openings, you will not need the FFC in the tool box (on the opening line or anywhere else on course).For the line up at jump 1: Set up more of a slice over 1 so he doesn’t go around it – there is a bit of pressure on these and he is reading that, plus he is really close to the jump so it is easier to go around it.
He was much better at :53 and 1:36, for example, when you had a lot more of a slice line. I like the slices on 1 here, because it takes out the front of 2 almost entirely and gives the dogs plenty of room to take 1 in extension.The Threadles are much better for him, in terms of commitment and jumping.
And at trials – you can hold your threadle position and you don’t have to move away until he commits to coming to the backside and you see him turning his head to look at the bar at 2 – that will get a great opening and you will still be able to get where you need to be on the next line.When you change your position – move straight back away from the line of the entry wing (towards the next jump) for now, rather than more across the #23 jump – when you moved across the #2 jump, it was hard to know til after he landed from 1 if you wanted the front or back of the jump there. So, positionally you are in the same spot (near the entry wing) but we just move you further back from it when changing position.
He was reading the threadles really well, so I think they will be really useful! Let me know what his stay is like at trials and we can plan 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
For REAL about the FEO/NFC thing! But at least AKC has those 2 opportunities. USDAA has plenty too. I don’t think there is a lot of UKI in your area? But the food reward boxes in UKI are great, plus in UKI you are allowed to take a toy to the line in ALL runs, not just NFC runs (I love this rule :))
I agree that the layering games went really well for you! I think layering is harder for smaller dogs (they need to take more strides and have more time to change their minds LOL!) but he did a super job!
First video – he definitely likes driving to the tunnel! One small suggestion: you can lead out less on tunnel sends so you don’t have to stop moving (especially on mats, where we handlers are a bit faster than the dogs). And you can name the line sooner – when he lands from the first jump, you can start your Go Tunnel cues so he accelerates ahead and you can peel away
Good work on the right verbals/turns. When you added the first jump to it at :49 and 1:01 the timing of the verbal was really strong! I don’t think you need that step to takeoff – it might actually show a little extra motion to 2 which widens the line and opens up the tunnel a bit. At 1:16 you were setting up for the send which made the verbal late – so you can just take out the physical send cue in favor of saying the verbal and leaving 🙂 There is an additional brake arm cue we can add if needed that can help move away sooner, but he might not need it 🙂
The sequence looked good! You added the go tunnel earlier here – you can say it a few times so he feels confident driving ahead from you. I think that repeating the verbal allows the dog to process it more when working independently, especially as we move away and the physical cue doesn’t support it as much.
He did a great job with the Go after the tunnel on the 2nd video! It is a difficult Go because of the layer and there is a rear cross on the tunnel. Good boy! You can throw the toy as soon as he looks at the jump after the tunnel, he was asking a little bit of a question by slowing down. And you can also add parallel line motion to help support the layering, that is useful there too to help get him on the line.
The timing of your right verbal on the very last rep was perfect! And you didn’t need much of a send or any real digging into the takeoff spot – and he nailed it. Super!!! So you can play with leaving earlier. The goal on all of these is to keep you in motion so yo can easily get to whatever the next spot is on course.Great job on these!!!!
TracyGood morning!
The first reps went really well! Great job helping him with position and standing still, and gradually moving further back. Great job with the toy throws – he was beginning to lift his head to look for them, which is good because it means he is predicting the placement based on the cue, which strengthens his understanding.
When you added distance, stand still for longer to let him still look for the bar without handling help. And also, to assist the independence without any additional handling, you can try tossing the toy with the threadle arm – that way you won’t need to switch arms to throw, as that switching arms to throw could read as handling help to him, and he might wait for that. So it might feel awkward to throw with the threadle hand but can be effective! The other option is to throw with the other hand but wait longer – wait til he has turned to the jump and approached it.He is doing well with adding distance, but as you saw – needs a few more sessions before you can move away with a lot of speed. As you add distance and add moving away, use slower motion (walking) so he can continue to process the cue. it is pretty complex because we are asking the dogs to do something that is very different than our position and motion 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
I am so sorry to hear about Breeze but so glad that he seems to be improving quickly! I was following your facebook page for updates. Sending healing prayers for the little guy!!!!We can break all of these down as needed into training skills for Miss Promise. I have always found that getting the pups out for training helps take my mind away from anything else, in a good way. Hopefully that is the case here too! And of course Potter is welcome to play too.
Promise did a great job stepping into the big dog shoes with this game!
On your tunnel sends – try a lower arm and more connection as you move away – think of it as bowling her unto the tunnel rather than pointing up high. A high arm caused a little question on the very first rep. Your arm was lower at :19 and :52 and she had no questions
For the tunnel verbal. You can use your GoTunnel verbals to name the whole line to cue the tunnel sooner – as soon as she lands from 1, you can start go go go tunnel and see how she does. You said over then tunnel as she landed from 2 – I don’t think she needs that 2nd over for the Go line.For the right turns – she did a GREAT job with that juicy tunnel out ahead! She was turning really well. Try to start the right cues as soon as you have seen her land from jump 1.
At :24, you told her over then the right cue, so the right cue ended up being late and she was a little wide. But compare it to the last rep at 1:08, when you gave her the right cue when she was maybe halfway between 1 and 2 and she was amazing! Tight and fast. Love it!Because she is young, her commitment is not yet fully developed so she might not yet commit on perfectly timed cues – but that is something that will continue to develop. So far she looks great!!! You can add in more layering but to help her out, use less of your motion by walking through it until she understands it.
Great job!
Tracy
