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Good morning!
>> I’m guessing on the shaping exercise around the wing that I should stay in the same place and let Reilly figure that out. Is that right? >>
Yes – it is shaping, so he gets to offer behavior while you stand there and give feedback with reinforcement. Otherwise you end up cuing behavior which makes him more reliant on your than you will want.
>>Also, in that exercise could I use “snacks” for the marker word or should it be a word other than “snacks” I’m confused about that.>>
It depends on how you want to deliver the reinforcement. If you want to deliver the reinforcement from your stationary hand then yes – snacks. It both marks the correct behavior and tells him where to look for the reward. You won’t need a yes word, just the snacks word 🙂
>>>Today I took Reilly into the agility area twice and did the catch game with him and he would happily sit when cookies were being thrown back at him. I could move to either side of the jump and he would keep his stay. When I was on the opposite of the jump I could throw a treat, say catch and then ask him to sit and he sat down perfectly.>>
Wait, so he was sitting after the thrown cookie? I am confused LOL! Bear in mind that the catch cookie is also a release, so while he might choose to offer a sit in that situation, he doesn’t have to and it is not part of the criteria. It is just a lovely by-product. If you are getting a stay in any position and then reward with catch and he is then offering up a sit? Cool!
>>Is there a good way to use this game to help with his start line?
Yes – if he is happy and relaxed, then we are definitely on the right path! If he is offering a sit then cool, but we will take a stay in any position.
Great job here!!
TracyGood morning!
The sofa as home base is so funny! She remembers her early training LOL!
She did really well here. And I agree, she is a tugger!
The various markers are all looking good – one general thing is to try to say the marker with your hands & toy completely still… then move the toy. Easier said than done! When you’re running courses, your hands will be in motion the whole time but for now, you will want to try to be as clean as possible so the marker can predict the placement. It was hard to see your hands on all of this, but it looks like the word and hand movement might have been happening together rather than word-then-hand.
Her bring on the disc is looking really good indoors! You can tug with her when she brings it to you, so bringing it gets instantly reinforced (and you can let her win it, you don’t need to ask for the out on each rep). And her outs are also looking strong, so feel free to reward those instantly with the toy cue again or by whipping out a different toy or a cookie.Great job here!
TracyHi!
Considering this is a new concept for him, he was GREAT here! Ignoring the ball on the exit side of the wing was easy for him, well done. He was successful even when you tossed it there and that was harder for sure! Just be careful that your left hand doesn’t hang out in the cookie pocket – that tips him off to the process in a way that we cannot do in the trial ring, so you can have the left hand not doing any cookies movement til you are ready to actually deliver it.>> Sending him past the ball to wrap the wing proved to be too much to soon, so we will keep working on it.
Yes, he will get it – just gradually inch the ball over to the other side of the wing in small increments.
>>I’m also switching back and forth between food and the ball here, never a problem for him. What can be problematic is getting him to tug if he knows a ball is in play – something else to work on>>
You can isolate that skill by having the ball present, in the room, on a chair or table… and playing tug. Then pick up the ball, show him, put it back down, back to tug. And when he interacts with the tug: he can chase the ball, end of session (at the beginning stages :))
Then you can gradually extend your sessions to get more tugging in between the ball play. Ball play is high most favorite so we can reinforce more tugging with the ball play.
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
I think there were A LOT of great moments here and the little oopsies are ones that are particularly frustrating for you, and worth addressing for sure.
The remote reinforcement generally went well.>>When rewarding focus for moving away from toy, I’m guessing I shouldn’t get too far away?>>
I agree! The best moments were the short blasts, just one or two steps away. Those were great. When you got too far away, neither of you knew what to do 🙂 so for now stay close. And as you add distance (which also adds duration), you can add in interaction: talk to him and cue a trick, then mark and run back. Then 2 tricks… and so on 🙂 that will help it build.
>>He runs off with the toy and is trying to kill it.
He definitely ubers when things are unclear, so two ideas for you:
Plan each rep! And set a timer for the session to 90 seconds (don’t work 2 skills in one sessipn). You can even explain the next rep to him so he hears the planning lol! I don’t know if it will help him but it will for sure help you!And if he ubers… no worries, just call him back for a treat or another toy, and plan the next rep. It will keep success rate high so you can have a better overall session.
>>There’s also a moment where he runs off, I call him back. This happens often in training and it really really drives me insane.
That’s why I suggest planning short sessions – it happens when things are later in the session and/or not fully planned.
When you went right from remote reinforcement to the wing wraps, it was just not enough time to mentally reset and plan for both of you, so they should be distinct, highly planned sessions. He did well, but the little errors that drive you crazy are mainly planning errors and length of session errors.
>> My assumption is that he feels like my movement is towards the back door and he will either have to go inside or his sister will come out but I could be reading it incorrectly. This doesn’t happen in other locations-which reinforces my suspicion.>>
Maybe! But you can continue the game indoors. It doesn’t have to be the end 🙂 and when you are done, don’t just leave him because he rehearses that running off when that happens (like t the very end of the video).
>>I am trying to figure out a better way to end the session. I tried to throw the frisbee but because I had been previously using food and a tug, he didn’t want to switch.>>
Cookies, toys, on leash, go for a walk and sniff, then hang out in the house – all things that can help him want to come back and interact at the end and will also bubble over into trials nicely too!
>>There’s just so many pieces to this puzzle with him
I agree, reinforcement is a BIG puzzle!! I think they key for you is planning each and every rep, not freeforming any of it. The free form is where things go wrong! If he has a mat or station behavior, ask for it and reward it between each rep to plan and then loop him back in.
Let me know what you think!! Concentrate on all that went well and that is what we will build on 🙂
TracyHi! I don’t have a specific tug cue – the bite means grab from my hand and tug, the get it means go get it and tug, shhhhh means chase and tug, so tug us built into all of them and the markers are more about placement.
Good distraction list!!!! I’m excited to be able to use them!
TracyHi! This went really well!
The backside wraps looked great – really nice independence and he was great about ignoring the toy til cued. SUPER!!!
>> A couple of times Reilly didn’t pick up the toy but just ran for me, probably to get a treat (I needed treats to help get the toy out).
Actually… you were late with the get it – he was already past the toy. Good boy! So you can say get it as soon as you see his head turn in the correct direction so it is earlier and he won’t run past you.
>> Still struggling with toy release.
Keep working the reinforcement with treats, but have them less obvious – maybe in your pocket til he lets go, or in the hand that is not holding the toy, so we are beginning to fade them. He was pretty good about releasing here from what I can see but we want to keep the reinforcement rate very high.
>>He took to the shaping game fast. Hope I did this correctly.
yes, he did a great job! Question: what specifically is the marker you were using? I heard 4 of them: yes, yay. yeah, wow. LOL!! So if it is a cookie in your hand, use just one marker and be consistent (and move less, you were moving a lot so he was not always sure where to be).
>Another question on TSA game. Reilly does really well at all phases, but still doesn’t want to sit down right away. I can wait him out and he eventually sits and stays. I was wondering if when I ask for the sit if he wont do this right away should i back him up and try again or just continue to wait him out? He likes the game and loves racing out of the ring for the treat.
And one more question. Originally we used a pat on the leg with the word leg to ask for a lineup and sit. I’m worried I have poisoned this and wonder if I should use a different cue?>
Yes, it is possible that the line up is poisoned and also it is possible that the sit cue is poisoned – the high latency (meaning taking forever to move into the sit) is an indicator of that. So… don’t ask fo any specific position. Just wait til he is still then move away. It can be a sit, a down, a stand, doesn’t matter as long as he is still. He can choose the position! It might end up being a stand and that is fine. For example, when my Hot Sauce is REALLY stimulated, I don’t bother asking for a sit because she will struggle to process it. I just let her offer being stationary in any position, then I use a stay cue and walk away. She often ends up choosing the stand then then does not move at all til the release. It is much better for both of us – successful and not frustrating. I think Riley might need to pick his position at this point, as long as he does not move. Sit, down, stand… whatever he likes 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>First: Continue to establish a strong “Yours” with toys on our Top 5 list but start to add in a rep with his leash?
Yes, leash as the toy and not attached to him (put duct tape over the clasp so he doesn’t bite the metal by accident. Introduce the leash separately as as a regular toy.
>>Second: At the same time (or maybe I should wait until the Yours is a little stronger?) work through the steps in Building Value for Toys. My first question is what would you suggest for a Reinforcement Procedure? The behavior I ultimately think I want is for him to grab his leash on a Yours cue and tug with it as we move around (eventually walk into the ring to the first jump) So I think I need my reinforcement procedure to be something not involving Yours – is that right? One of his most favorite things is to chase either a Holey Roller or one of his tugs – Get it…. could I use one of those? My other thought was to use something similiar to what you did in the video ….jump, tunnel, Yours with one of his favorite toys, but that would have the “yours” as part of the Reinforcement Procedure, so not sure that would be a good choice? He already is quite happy doing this with any of the tug toys on our list. Thoughts?>>
Remind me: is ‘yours’ the cue for getting it from your hand (like my bite) or is it a thrown reward? Also, the leash does not need to have only one word associated with it – it can be any word as the marker to interact with it, based on where it is located or presented.
You can install the leash as a fun toy using a get it and throwing it in the middle of a sequence, then when he gets it, throw a ball or go to a better toy. That is similar to the value building procedure I did with the ball, and I think it will make it easier if the leash is dead on the ground or in your hand. Plus, if you toss it, it is moving and that is more fun for him, I think 🙂 Or one of the moving procedures inserted into the sequence.And then when he loves loves loves playing with the leash, you can add in the playing with it in your hand (“yours”, I think) and then add it to the remote reinforcement procedures so he knows how to ignore it while he runs, then be cued to play with it at the end.
let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>So for adding the verbal it’s the same principal as it’s been for a long time now, add the word when you are 99% sure that you’re going to get the desired behavior. So much is changing in training these days that I guess I wanted to make sure that I hadn’t missed something in this regard.>>
Yes, I have not heard of any better way to do it and if we don’t just jump in, then we get paralyzed and never add the verbal LOL!
>>With the Dogwalk…. I would then first establish the reinforcement procedure of Get It – and be sure that if I cue Get it that he’s always going to drive the MM, right?>>
Yes – you will want the MM to be high enough in value that he goes to it. I also click the MM so he hears the gears grinding or the beep after the get it.
>>Then I’ll add in the Verbal, so if I was working on Left it would be Left, Get it?
Yes, but with a pretty wide separation because the left verbal comes pretty early (I repeat it a few times) then you have to wait to see if he actually hits while turning left – then when he hits, you go to ‘get it’. If you cue the get it before he hits, he might skip the yellow entirely 🙂
T
Hi!
heck yeah, I think this is working! How does this arm position feel? She didn’t seem to consider it to be a threadle at all on any rep. Her only questions where she had errors were because you peeled away laterally, too early, because she was committing to the backside. On all of those oopsies (I think there were 4 of them) you were moving diagonally away from the backside and she had questions when you were pretty far across the bar. But then compare your line when you remained on a parallel path for longer, at :55 and 1:12 and also at 2:00 and the last rep when you were waaaay far across the bar – she got it. A good comparison point is the rep at 1:51 where she did not get it because you were peeling away, then right after it at 2:00 when you were parallel to her path (but all the way across the bar). So for now – keep that parallel path going even when you are so far away! And now you can also add in some balance with cuing the front side, then cuing the backside on the next rep.
Great job here!!!!
TracyHe looked super, you must be excited!!!!! Yes, one more step to the jump in the SS and one less right verbal, otherwise, perfect 🙂 Yay! And I agree, he SMOKED the big line at the end!
Hi!
The donut is pretty huge for puppies and not very stable, so I like that you added in other things to help get her hind end going. Perfect! She was much more secure (and not as compressed) with the Bosu there and was happily offering all four feet. NICE! IYou can ask for a position change – when her hind end is on the Bosu, ask her to go from a stand to a sit (all 4 on the Bosu) then back to a stand (front feet on the donut) That is a great challenge! I don’t think she is ready to do it yet on with her back feet on the donut though.
Only one other suggestion – let her hop off after the release before yo throw the toy – in her rush to get the toy, she is not exactly thinking about being coordinated about dismounting the setup, so we don’t want her to scatter her limbs everywhere getting off of these LOL!
Plank – do you have a 2nd one? You can put 2 side by side for her to turn around on, then fade the 2nd one> I think she can probably turn around on the single one with a little more experience and a slow turn cue hand helping her turn.
On this set up, you can also be careful on the release so she moves before you move: say break, let her step off, then whip out the toy, You were saying ti and moving and bringing the toy out, so she went directly into GIMME TOY TOY mode and wasn’t thinking about her body as much 🙂
On your bigger plank, you can elevate it even more and you can also do some recalls across it.
Backing up:
Nice job keeping your reinforcement low so she also kept her head nice and low! Since we are obsessing on mechanics… you are moving your hand/shoulders forward then saying back then clicking. See if you can flip it so the cue comes before you lean forward/move your hand. You might need to either be sitting down or less leaned when you are bent over, so you can be stationary, say the cue, then move the hand. I am not sure if the hand cue is designed to be what elicits the behavior for her, or if you are early with your hand motion for the treat throws… but the hand motion is getting the behavior with the form we like, so I think if we acknowledge that it is the cue, we can fade it: your hand can be stationary, say the cue, then move the hand, then c/t. And then we progressively reduce the hand movement so she can do it on a verbal only. Right now the hand motion is eliciting the behavior and also keeping her head low, so I want to keep it around!!>>Iat least that were true yesterday).
This statement ^ right here sums up puppy training 1000%! HA!
>>Throwing the hollee roller was way too much. She brought it back and got all stalky, standing and staring at me to throw it again. I quit that session and when I came back to it, she was still sticky and not wanting to move. >>
Interesting and great info! Remind me -will she tug with the hollee roller?
>>This morning, I went back to a regular tug toy. And I realized something else – I have been delivering the toy only on my right, so after the first reward there, she did not want to go to my left to that bowl. So I had to do some remedial work. >>
Darn smart dogs, pointing out our patterns. LOL! But again, good info.
>>So I seem to be going backwards in terms of progress on this one.
Not backwards at all in terms of sorting out her reinforcement procedures/strategies! That is far more important than the wing wrapping stuff (that is the easy part). You can take the hollee roller and install a different game with them – rather than throw away fro you, throw them behind you: when she brings the first one, throw the next one behind you or in the opposite direction so she has to come towards you to get it. And when she brings hollee roller #1 back, you can ask her to tug on HR #2 then you throw it behind you – creating a loop that drives her in with no sticky stalky stuff, so you can then use the HR more. Do this away from any specific training, just to play around with the reinforcement.
It sounds like Dellin is just a master at immediately telling you about how placement reinforcement affects behavior (thanks, Dellin LOL!!!!!) so it is great learning to sort it out now 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> My concern with only using the toy is that I don’t want to rely on using a higher arousal level to override any concerns she has with the motion. Have had too many BC’s go through teeter issues of various severity (Rayven being the worst) and taking a lot of time to work through them, when it would have been better for them to be comfortable with the motion without their arousal overriding any concerns until it doesn’t anymore.>>
I look at it differently – make a nice pairing with something she loves early on, then insert food and more thoughtfulness a little later on. Let her offer for the toy – she jumps on, gets a bit of tug, you release for a treat, she jumps on, gets a bit of tug, and so on. That is a nice balance of high value but also NOT overarousal. Food is not yet high enough in value here to stand a chance in case she is worried about it, so go with what is high value. Otherwise, she might have an arousal change because she is a little worried – and that is when we see overarousal. If she is aroused enough that the distraction of the movement fades away, you won’t see overarousal (Yerkes-Dodson bell curve for sure!)
>> but probably will have trouble beating her even with a push back unless the toy is close to us.
Feel free to cheat and distract her with a cookie throw (or a fake cookie throw LOL!)
>Separate drive ahead from retrieve. I may need to make the toy a fair bit longer to make sure I can get it when she beats me.
Or make it so big that it is hard to run away with since she is small. When my Pap, Crusher, was 16 weeks old, she weighed 3 lbs so I used a toy that weight 5 lbs. I bet if you used a 5 lbs toy (it was just a bunch tied together) then she would not be as quick to run off with it, buying you tie to get into the tugging 🙂
Tracy
Thanks
Lori
Hi!
Great job adding the toy and taking the dust pan outside 🙂 He was great!
Yes – you can move away to present the toy as long as you are stationary (for now) til he hits the prop. Basically… don’t be twitchy LOL!! You were NOT twitchy here, you were great about being patient til he hit, then being exciting with the toy (moving back was perfectly fine here)
These were sending forward to the dust pan – now you can add in the sending sideways and sending backwards. His commitment is looking really strong!LOVED the toys involved with the wing wraps!!! This is going to segue very nicely into the games where we build on the wing wrapping. For now, keep everything the same for another session or two, but change the upright you used here to something bigger, like a big wing if you have one or a big laundry basket or garbage pail. For now, don’t move back when you present the toy (you were not really moving back here) – we are going to add specific motion pretty soon, so the higher priority is adding a bigger wing.
Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
His goating looks fabulous, he is a confident little dude! I love It!
He had zero trouble with any of the items you had him on – he was able to get on, hop off for the treat, get back on. Easy peasy! So now you can add more balance challenge and have him stay on the discs for longer, or change from a stand to a sit, or walk back and forth from the big disc to the bone then up the stairs LOL!
Jumping in the chair was HILARIOUS! LOL!
>>I did manage to get engagement with the toy after I put food up higher and was done with this session of shaping.
He is a hoot! And it is great that he did end up engaging. I think the location was very paired with food at that point, plus there was probably a pool of scent from having done the shaping – so to get the interaction wit the toy: yes to getting the food and prop out of the picture, but you can also move him to a place that is not associated with the food and there is no pool of scent – and then you can be nuts with the toy. At the end of the first video, you were only a few feet away and you got him to tug – that is a MAJOR breakthrough! I used to have to run to a different room in the house with my foodie dogs and with him you can see how just a few feet make a big difference! NICE!
On the plank:
Mr. Confident didn’t even let you finishing getting the plank set up before he was goating all over it LOL!!!! And the get on and turn around were both perfect – he is really balanced little dude plus he is happy to follow cookies. Remember to add in having him jump off the side of it, so he knows how to dismount safely in case he ever loses his balance on a taller plank.One other thought about the toys: because the planks and discs and even the training room are very associated with food, and food is a distraction from tugging, you can have a disc on the floor in the corner of the room and just bring him in to play with his toys for a little bit – no shaping or food training involved. This can help him learn to play with the toy in the presence of something food-associated, but without the food stimulation in that moment. Let me know if that makes sense.
Great jb here!
TracyHi there!
>>She’s good on the plank on the ground. I can raise it, yes? However, I’m not sure what I have.
Yes, she was great! My only suggestion is to feed with her head lower when you are rewarding and turning her – her chin should be parallel to her top line and not above it (maybe even a little pointed down) as that will be better for balance. And yes you can totally raise it – in the olden days I would suggest phone books to raise it with but I don’t think those exist anymore LOL!! So cinderblocks? Textbooks? Old tires? LOL! You can also flip the setup up and use the balance disc and fit bone to lift the plank.
She was also really good on the balance disc, and disc/fit bone combo! This is definitely a place you can feed lower so she does not look up for the food – looking up changes the weight shift and we definitely want her to keep her head low to shift her weight back to balance on these. I think you don’t need to click, as that causes her to look up: you can click the first interaction if you like, but then feed low and keep feeding low (don’t need to click again) until you release with the find it. That can also help her keep her head low and not watch you as much. She will want to watch a little bit (nothing else to look at LOL!) but feeding low will also help build the weight shift/balance muscle memory.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
