Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hello!!
Yes, the toy play adds a different element for sure! You can do a bit of shaping with the toy – get your prop out, get her tugging, take the toy back and let her offer prop hits for the toy as the reward. Then when she can do that bit of reminder 🙂 you can take it back to the barrel and she will be perfect!T
Good morning!
The rocking horses look good, his commitment is lovely!!!! And he is both fast and turning brilliantly. Yay!
>>Watching the video, I think I may be using my arms too much too?>>
We can smooth things out a little, I think it wasn’t too much it is just a matter of figuring out when/where you needed to use them and when you didn’t.
On the crosses/spins – keep your arm back to him and make a connection as you move away from the FC, and then you can use your arm to swoosh him past you when he gets to your fingertips – and example of this is at :45, where you have great connection with your arm back to him and then swooshed him to the next barrel.
On the FCs, you can send and start to rotate and move away sooner at this point. This will also make your spins easier because you will be further ahead and doing the FCs sooner – so you don’t have to spin as fast to get the BC on time. The FC can be happening before he even gets to the barrel then the BC can happen when he is at the barrel. It will feel very roomy, in terms of timing 🙂for the race tracks, you can use less arm sending here. Try running on a parallel line to his and not sending – just running and connecting should keep him on the line. I think sending was causing you to weight shift back a little like at 1:24 and 1:37 and running the oval should feel easier 🙂
>> I am trying to get a little pause or a sit before just sending him right into the next rep. When I asked for a sit, I got barking and sometimes jumping. Once he just left me to go to do the barrel on his own. Is there anything you’d like me to adjust?>>
yes, I noticed that he thought waiting was a little STOOOOOOPID hahahaha! The good news is that he is PUMPED UP for the game and for the toy. Yay! 2 ideas for you:
– try playing the porridge heating game in front of the barrel! We did it with his prop on Tuesday nigh, and he was getting the idea to wait for a moment and focus, maybe even sit! the barrel has a lot of value now so you can transfer the porridge heating game to the barrel so he learns that getting exciting and doing a sit stay in front of it is a GOOD thing (this will be effective for your start line stays too!)
– you can incorporate a bit of food into the reset moments here in the rocking horses. Line up, be patient, get a cookie! Then release and the toy chase/wild party for the barrel wraps. This will be helpful not only to get him happier to line up and be patient for the start, but it will also gradually build in going back and forth between toys and treats! I suggest starting with the highest value toy you have, and the most boring level of food for him, pocket-lint level of boringness (I understand that as a Sheltie, there might be no such thing as “boring food”. I have used lettuce with my Papillons to achieve boring food status LOL!)
Great job here!
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I love going back to these games all the time- we see how the understanding develops and StrykR was a great example of that here. His commitment looks GREAT!!!! (and the photo of him at the beginning was adorable 🙂 I have a couple of little details for you to play around with as you continue building these up:
He is a little wider turning to his right than to his left on these. To tighten the right turn, have your hand back and connect more on the exit of that turn. I think he was not wide because of a side weakness or preference, but rather because you were not as connected back to him as you exited the wrap like at :09 and more clearly at :22 where you were moving the cookies around and that closed your shoulders forward (blocking connection). I have a cookie idea below that will solve the cookie mechanics to help with connection 🙂On the spins – move away from them more, so you don’t end up rotating in one spot which makes them harder to execute and then he will leave you n the dust on course (he is speedy already, so a big goal is to be able to stay ahead of him on course 🙂 ) Think of the spin as 2 separate elements: do an earlier FC and move away as if you are doing a normal FC, so you are FCing and moving away before he arrives at the barrel. Then as he arrives at the barrel, do the BC on the flat (you will be halfway to the dish and not near the barrel when you end up doing the blind).
For example, at 1:39 and 1:47 – you can start a little further back from the barrel so you can rotate sooner on the FC – then you are moving away and can be starting the BC as soon as he arrives at the cone, then do the StrykStrykStryk sooner (1:41 and and 1:48) for the decel to you. You ended up being late on the StrykStrykStryk which is why he gave you a bit of sass at 1:48 and wider turns 🙂 the decel to you looked great when you were earlier, so I don’t think the wideness and sass here was an understanding question, it was more of a timing question from him.
he was a SUPER good boy with the mini sequences at the end!
One more suggestion, I save this for last because it is probably the least comfortable suggestion and you can curse me out LOL!
He is not driving ahead of you to the dish, he is going at your speed and looking at your hands. We want to maintain the driving ahead element where he smokes you and accelerates, so accelerate more to the dish when you are driving to it… and have the cookie already in the dish and not in your hands. Yes – risky! I mean, he is STARVING all the time (I can relate LOL) but you can really empower your dish marker and get him driving ahead brilliantly if the cookie is placed in it beforehand 🙂
So to get that started, have cookies in your hand and place one in the dish – can be lower value in the dish then higher value in the hand. Reward him from walking away from the dish with you (kind of like the remote reinforcement, except you can have cookies in your hand to start so he can learn the value of leaving the dish. Then do one barrel wrap – when he connects on the new side, mark it with dish and accelerate to it. I bet he thinks it is the BEST FUN EVER.
You don’t need to add the decel to you until he can easily walk away from the cookie dish without needing too much encouragement or needing cookies in your hand – then you can reward him for the decel.He might grab an extra cookie or two from the dish, but it is good for a chuckle and if that happens, you can reward more for leaving the dish with you (from your hand) and even for doing a couple of barrel wraps on the other side of the room, still getting rewards from you hand.
Let me know what you think! You and he did a great job here so he is totally ready for the next steps.
TracyGood morning!
>>I have been going to an in person foundation class with her just to get her out working in other places. Last night she did a tunnel to a baby pinwheel like a pro – our first sequence. Fun to see the basement skills translate into a larger space. She thought it was super fun.>>
This is awesome, and I bet she thought it was delightful LOL!!! And it is an absolute thrill to see your foundation work transfer so easily. She is at the right age for you to see things being able to transfer with very little effort – so exciting!
First video, The Didi:
She really understands the pattern here, which is great! She was grat with the wings, great with the bumps, no problem and no questions that I could see.
One suggestion: Change your reward placement to rewarding her for doing one more turn so she pulls across the front of you (use the opposite hand to reward, same hand that sent her into the DIDI 🙂 rather than reward at your side)/ She will end up in the same basic position as the strike a pose games because that allows us to get one more left or right turn on bump 3 (supported by the verbal). When you reward at your side, she is not doing a left or right on that final bump, she is going straight.Watching her work this skill: You are also going to need grippier footing now, she is slipping too much in this space and she isn’t even going full speed yet. Do you have something you can cover the mats with for more grip here? I bought some turf rolls on amazon which give the pups better grip now for when I can’t be outside and my original footing (carpet) was too slippery when they started going fast.
Rocking horses:
>>there were still outtakes 🙂 I feel like you can almost see the smoke coming out of my head from thinking so hard about it.>>
HA! I think these looked strong! The hard part was that you were trying to move a lot in a small space but there was really nowhere to go. So – since her commitment looks great, you can move less and make it more of a true rocking horse where you hang out in the middle without running: You send to the barrel, FC, then rotate basically in place and send her backwards to the cone behind you. This will challenge her commitment because we are taking motion out of it. Start with the cone and barrel close together is she has questions about being sent behind you at a distance, but then you can spread them out again. It will possibly still feel awkward, but it will be a different kind of awkward haha!
She is slipping here too – we might have reached the end of where you can use this space for the fast moving stuff and you need to put down grippier footing there, or save the fast-moving games for places where she won’t slip. I can get you the link for the turf rolls I am using indoors now in my little space, if you are interested 🙂 I don’t know when you will be able to be outside again, but maybe the training facilities with mats or dirt have a few minutes you can squeeze these games in?
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
You can put the 2nd toy with the retrieve on the back burner for now til you feel the other pieces are stronger. She is doing really well so I think you are pretty close to being able to add it in!!>>But, when I run I tend to not slow down enough first and need the back foot to come forward for balance. I’ll see if I can do it without her.>>
We work more on this in the next puppy class, but think of the commitment cue as having 3 parts, so the distance between the exit of the first cone and the 2nd cone has 3 parts:
Fast forward (this is the acceleration at the exit of the first cone and says to the pup: head to this cone over there)
Slow forward (this is the deceleration when she is maybe halfway between the 2 cones. It tells her how to approach the 2nd cone, meaning in collection and prepares the footwork)
Rotate (this is the front cross element, which either remains a FC or becomes a spin, and happens when she is relatively close to cone 2).So emphasize that deceleration portion, don’t worry as much about the rotation. In real course work, it is the deceleration that is the strongest turn cue. The verbal happens when you start to deceleration. We do have a deceleration game coming up here!
Here tunnel work is going well!! I think the MM is a better option than the bowl, because it isbfurther and you can be more independent (you don’t need to run to the bowl to get the treat in it).
So you can use a MM, then reward her from your hand on the reset to smooth out the loop. A cookie in hand for that reset is great, and a toy would be awesome!
For the threadle side entries, help her less with the physical cue: starting her between you and the tunnel, let her turn herself away to it without the arm swoosh to help. You can have the outside arm as the cue, but it is not a turn away arm so the arm just kinda hangs there as she turns herself away. You can start her on a really easy angle to get this rolling and then make it harder and add the verbal cue (you can use the tunnel verbal to get started).If she has any questions about turning away, you can put the MM inside the tunnel, a foot or two inside the entry 🙂 as she gets happier to turn herself away, you can move the MM further down the tunnel til it is back in its original position past the exit.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Like I mentioned before tricks are a challenge because food makes it so much easier to teach them plus I am just awful thinking of tricks that work for stuff like this. She finally seems to have figured out shake a paw. We’ll work on a proper spin and through the legs as options.>>
You’re totally not awful! Any trick that had some movement to it and is a little silly will be perfect. And you can teach with food, then go to toys – and use both food and toys in porridge heating. I don’t generally start that way but she seems to do well going back and forth between food and toys.
>>I think that was a good choice on her part – she was basically saying “yes, I am ready, here is my sit stay”.<< >>Ok, so some reason I thought we didn’t want them to just offer that response. >>
We don’t want to insist on it as part of the porridge heating game, but if the dog serves it up? Cool! Also, we don’t want it to be the only behavior, so if there is a different cue or something to shape on, we don’t want to reward the sit.
>>Unfortunately, her group puppy/life skills class is over and nothing new is up with that instructor given covid here right now.
Yeah, Covid…. sigh. Maybe you can create your own group classes at home with the other dogs?
>> Looking for another option for an in person class to get her around more dogs when working as a distraction for her.>>
Keep looking but don’t make yourself too crazy about it 🙂 Having been through this with 3 pups now (thanks, Covid!) I know that the pups do catch up if you can’t find a class til spring.
T
Hi! For this one, you can start with one wing or barrel on the threadle side. When he is happy with that, you can go to 2 wings or barrels to make it look like a full jump 🙂
TracyGood morning!
Yes! You’ve got it. Super! Look at how well she is bending herself – yay!! You can now wait a bit longer to click and toss: let her turn away more and when she is heading back around the wing (at the outer edge of it, nearer the camera) then you can click and toss. You can of course use your hand cue to help her turn away, just click & reward later to ask for even more bend on the turn. That will help her think even more about turning her head into the turn.
Great job here!!!!!
TracyThanks, he is adorable! I am glad that he and Cody are getting along so well!!!!! I love that he has landed with you, and I am excited for the future!!!!
T
Good morning!
The
Tunnel threadle is looked really good! When she was moving away from the camera, to make a left turn into the tunnel, she was literally moving right past the other tunnel entry with no questions. YAY!!!! Be careful not to say ‘break’ in that situation because break should theoretically cue the tunnel right in front of her, not the threadle. You can also balance some regular non-threadle tunnel sends with the threadle side (the double whammy game is fun for that).After the ‘close close close’ you don’t need to say tunnel – when she was turning to her left, she had no trouble. Turning to her right was harder (either she is a lefty or the setup was harder for the right turn or both) so to help her turn herself away, you can put the lotus ball reward (I think that was what you were throwing) pre-placed literally inside the tunnel entry so she can turn herself into it and get instant reward for a couple of reps. So it starts maybe a foot inside the tunnel entry and when she turns herself into it – you can start moving it further and further down the length of the tunnel, til you can throw it at the exit again. It won’t take her long at all to figure that out 🙂
Minny Pinny – this was a good intro session to get her rolling around the wings. It was hard to see the line ups that started each rep, but be sure to line her up straight at your side so she doesn’t have to turn away to get to the first wing. You can also use a leg step and little arm send to cue her to get started.
2nd video:
>>I think she is starting to look good over the jump bumps.
I agree – she looks great! She might even be moving too fast for carpet LOL
The next step here is to keep taking out your shoulder turns – let her work the minny pinny without your shoulder turns, just your verbals:
for example, at 1:07, you said right right right and let her rip, and rewarded in position (same for the left left left on the rep after that) – I think those were the best reps here! She was both independent with the verbals and clean getting over the bumps. So you have full permission to line her up at your side, send her in with a step and the verbals, and just stand there. Yay!You can also move the 2 outer wings forward, so the middle wing is further away (you can’t really move the middle wing further away because the couch is there :)) She seems ready for the added challenge of finding it with a little more distance, just a couple of inches!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
The Reverse Retrieve is looking strong. She was really good with her stay – she moved a little on the first one, but then was solid on the others and you rewarded really well too. The get it as release is working nicely.
One thing I see is that with a low toy, she splays a bit when she has to dive down to pick it up. And, since I am neurotic, I would like to see less splay – try this with a bigger toy that she can just scoop up on the move, like a big hollee roller or something similar.Since it is looking really strong – she is getting it AND bringing it – you can start to now change your angle of motion, gradually working towards being able to move directly towards her, back to where she started while she continues you past you to the retrieve.
Porridge Heating is also going well!
This first video was more about getting all the mechanics of all the things 🙂 The leash is a pain in the b*tt but so necessary to work through early on, so it is not an issue in the future.>> we attempted must have looked more like the motion I have been doing when I reset her during the conditioning foundation work we have started as she was thinking I was tossing a treat.
Interesting!!! I see what you mean. You can add a marker for the tossed treats in the conditioning games, being sure the marker comes before the hand moves) and on the spins, put the cookie hand right on her nose to lead her around slowly. The quick wrist flicks probably do look like you are tossing, so you can get the spins going with slower motion.
She was not totally comfy tugging while on leash, so that is good to continue to add. And keep building value for the simple tricks – you can probably replace some conditioning foundation with trick training, especially because tricks often become part of the conditioning work.
2nd video with prop:
>.when I asked for a hand touch (I need to add a word to this) she pretty obviously thought I was doing a sideways send to the prop>>
well, it did look the same, good girl LOL!! Think of the prop as a the first jump – so don’t do a hand touch towards it or move to it, as all of that can be considered a cue and we don’t want to confuse the dogs.
The first spin looked really good here – low hand, slow moving. The next one you did was too quick so she thought it was the cookie toss. You had another low, slow spin later in the session and she was great!
>>, the couple of times she automatically sat when I was going to do the assessment>>
I think that was a good choice on her part – she was basically saying “yes, I am ready, here is my sit stay”. Eventually, as you go into the ring for an agility run, she might take it upon herself to offer a start line stay in front of the first obstacle (yes please – so much better than fighting with dogs about stays!) So I think it was fine for her to do that, you can reward or you can ask for another trick too (which is also reinforcing). But take that offered stay as an “I’m ready!” sign.
Yay!Great job here. If she is in a group class, bring a little porridge heating to it so you can see what helps her in different situations! Or, any time you are out somewhere, place with this a little and see how it goes 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>>Pet tutor is harder as I need to use my phone to trigger it. I don’t have a separate remote. But, I’ve never used the TNT. So, she needs to see and hear it.>>
Oh, I can see how having to use your phone with the PT would be a PITA haha so yes -try the TnT and see how she likes it!
>> I was running out of room and had slowed down. But, if I use a second toy she will spit the first one early. It took a long time to get her to bring it back to me. So, I’m not sure early drops are ideal.
It is a great training opportunity for all of the various to carrying skills and verbal cues and markers. For example, for flyball (where the retrieve element simply cannot get messy or sloppy AND we need the dogs to bring it back as fast and as far as possible) – I have worked my “out” (to drop the ball or toy he is carrying) to the point that I can present and slide the toy along the ground and the dog will carry what he is retrieving til I say the magic “out” word followed by the marker to get the toy I am holding and presenting. It was super fun to do and has really strengthened the retrieve all the way to me without getting early dropping (because early drops are very very bad in flyball LOL!!!) Yesterday, Contraband carried a ball over 4 jumps ahead of me with a dead toy on the ground, holding the ball til he heard ‘out’ and then getting the marker to pick up the dead toy.
It was honestly harder on my brain than on his brain 🙂 but it has really solidified the retrieving – I think Sprite will enjoy it a lot and it will solidify the bringing the toy to you – sometimes you ask for the ‘out’ and reward (great placement for carrying it to you), sometimes you can tug on the toy she brings or out it and throw the next one. The hardest part is for us humans to cue the right things – a great brain game for me! Easy for the dogs 🙂On the video – she is looking great with her commitment and she also gives some awesome feedback!!
>>. I lost connection a few times.>>
Yes, here and there, and I think it has to do with some reinforcement rehearsal. When you stop and rehearse reinforcement at your side (hand next to your leg), it is rehearsing the arm coming too far forward while she is still behind you which is what was causing the disconnection in the moments when you were not stopping to reward. She came to the reward hand when you stopped (because of the combination of stopping and cookie :)) but in flow, it became a disconnection (like at :27, for example) because with motion it looked like a blind which is what she did (you can reward that choice from her in the moment, it was correct). Something similar happened at :38, where you ended up with a little question from her because you closed your dog-side arm forward too soon, so she slowed down and the spin ended up being late.
So, the best way to stop the disconnects is to stop the rehearsal – when you want to reward for a front cross or after a spin, use a toy, stay in motion, and reward across your body (you did that on some of the Turn and Burn moments like at 1:48 and that was FANTASTIC). Rewarding across the body will get th dog-side arm back, lots of connection, and she will know where to be. Then during the run, keeping your arm locked back til she is just about arriving at your fingertips which are stretched back towards her, then using it to swoosh her forward can help eliminate the disconnects.
And on the racetracks – you don’t need to point forward at all, she was great with you just being connected and running. For example at 1:44 – 1:45 – you were connected and running, she never had to look at you and she nailed it. Then at 1:46 you were beginning to use your arm at your leg, so she had a question and slowed down.
All of the Turn and Burn looked great – movement plus connection!!!
>.But, I’m late in my turns. Probably need more space.
yes to this, and also no – yes, more space will make things easier but you are not late starting your turns, the lateness you feel is that you are not moving out of them (the spins) so it ends up feeling late. Here is more:
>>I still bring my feet together before turning.
Yes! I totally see what you mean here – but you are really only doing that on the spins but not on the FCs. So yes, give yourself a bit more room (if the yard is a mud pit, do this on one cone rather than 2), and let’s think of the spins differently:
Looking at the FCs, such as at :24 – you are indicating the FC, rotating, feet NOT together (distinct steps the new direction) and the FC looked great. You are consistently strong on the FCs and the Turn and Burn exits looked AWESOME because you were basically like: go do the thing, I am leaving. She was perfect. And your feet were great!
Use that same concept to get the spins feeling great too: think of the spins as a Front Cross first and foremost, where you rotate early and begin moving to the next cone or new line for the Turn and Burn exit. Then, as you move away, you are executing a BC on the flat while she is still off doing the cone wrap (but you are moving away the whole time). I think what is happening is you have gotten into the habit of doing the FC and BC in one spot, which brings your feet together and causes you to have to whirl fast in one spot in order to have a chance of being done on time – but then you end up out of position for whatever is next.
So to help that, make the spin into two very distinct moves that are separated in time:
FC…… BC.
You can literally talk to yourself: front crossssssssssssssssss blind cross.
Start with the turn and burn: send to a turn and burn and as she is arriving at the wing, FC and be runnin away like you did so well here. Then 2 steps later… throw in the blind cross on the flat. If the FC is early enough (they were here!) then the BC will be timely. If you are a little late, no worries – she gets rewarded regardless of where she ends up. And it is better to be late with good mechanics than try to be on time with feet together.
When you are comfy with the FC-BC on the turn and burn, put it back into the rocking horses. You will find that your position will end up different when you do the BC – if your feet are too together, your spin will end up close to the cone. If you do it properly with front crossssss (moving away….) then blind cross – you will find yourself putting the blind cross halfway between the 2 cones (she is still wrapping the cone you sent her too) and that will be great!Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>I used both extended/closest to the dog arm, and also tried using the outside/across the body arm, mostly as a reminder to me to ask this: at 2:55 in your demo video you say to ask for more specifics about the time and place for using one arm versus the other, so, OK, I’ll bite! What’s the time and place>>
Which arm(s) to use will end up becoming personal preference as you stylize your handling. There are a lot of opinions out there about threadle arms 🙂 With big dogs, there are a couple of ways to think about it and decide which works best.
Option A: The dog learns both arm uses along with the verbal. The dog-side arm can be used to swing back a little when the handler is in great position and the threadle is not that hard (some threadles are harder than others, in terms of entry lines). The outside/across the body arm can be used when the handler is not in great position (falling behind, for example) or on the really difficult threadles.
Option B: only use the dog-side arm for all threadles
Option C: Only use the outside/cross arm for all threadles.
I personally used to do Option A, but I am now in the Option C camp because me dogs (of all sizes) just see the cross arm better. I had success with Option A with my bigger dog but the littles didn’t see it as well. And I am also rarely in “great position” 🙂
It is super easy to teach both to the dog and then decide what you like, as you add motion. The key is that your feet keep moving forward and don’t rotate.
The session on the video went well!
>You’ll see in the video that after some early errors I bring back the target in my hand to help him out, so I gather we need to work on fading the target?>>
I think those were self-control errors more than threadle or target errors 🙂 He dove on the toy (self-control error) rather than took the wrong side of the bar (threadle error).
Bringing the target back definitely helped, because it gave him something of value to look at when he was closer to the toy (he didn’t have too much trouble with the toy til he was relatively close to it :))
You can work the self-control 2 ways:
– continue with the target like you did, but keep him on easier angles for now and gradually work back to the harder angles. Then take the target out of the hand but on the very easy position 1 angles. And separately from the jump, you can work the strike a pose with a fun to on the ground and just hand touches before the toy marker.– work it without a target, but with a less exciting reinforcement (like an empty food bowl) so it is easier to ignore the reward target in favor of coming in for the threadle.
2 other details to add:
Add in a cone or wing of barrel on the jump here, so he has a more obvious picture and your position. On the wingless with a 4 foot bar, it is harder to show position onthe wing (which is an important part o early threadle training) and you end up a little between the uprights (which is more of a serp position). A wing or barrel or cone should help that a lot.
Now that he was really beginning to get the idea of coming in to the correct side for the threadle, you can work on the 2nd part of the behavior – the go-out-to-the-jump part. You can get that by, after he comes in to the target hand, waiting for him to turn his head to the bar (or reward target) then say your get it marker. That will isolate the decision to turn to the bar, which builds the go-out-to-the-jump behavior. He might think you are nuts at first 🙂 but then what will happen is he will start to offer the entire in-then-out behavior. At that point, he is likely to stop touching the hand and that is PERFECT 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Great job transferring the barrel commitment to the minny pinny here 🙂 She’s got it! Easy peasy!! And she is bending nicely. So now for next steps 🙂
In your next session:
You can ask for even more independence by turning your shoulders less. You can let her do the whole thing without movement from you, other than maybe a step to get her started. That will help get it on a verbal cue and less about your motion.
Speaking of verbals… you can add your left and right verbals here 🙂 Since she is doing the behavior, you can go ahead and add the verbals.
One more detail: to really solidify the behavior, change the placement of reinforcement at the end:
reward from your hand (food or toys) and reward by pulling her in front of you like you did at :27 and :36 on the 2nd video – that way she exits on the left or right turn so yo ucan get multiple reps of the behavior with the verbal.Great job here!!!
Tracy
