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Hi!
Good job to all the dogs here! We are getting into the small details to get it really perfect. 2 ideas for you for the GO lines:
One thought for all the dogs – start on a straight line for the go exits more often as they will get more physical cue to go straight. In a smaller area, you’ll probably need to scrunch up the tunnel to have more room, but they will see you driving forward before they enter and that will help the exit. And on the angled approaches, let them see you turn and move straight for a few steps, to support the verbal.One other thing especially for the girls who still want to check in at the tunnel exit: in the spirit of “we are reinforcing a LOT but still not getting the behavior we want”… it is possible that we need to change the timing of the reinforcement here. I was thinking about why they still check in after a really high rate of success on going straight, and I think it is because they can see the toy throw. It is going like this: they head check at the tunnel exit and peripherally see the toy throw… which reinforces the head check because, well, tracking moving things is reinforcing then they get the toy which is also reinforcing. So the head checks are getting rewarded which would explain why they are not going away. Dang it!
So -try this: keep saying go go go until you see them look at the jump and move towards it… then throw the toy (or maybe enlist hubby to throw?) You might need to move a bit to help at first, and you might need to place a toy out there sometimes (but not all the time).
The turns are going well! Nikko might have had a valid reason for the left turns – when you were throwing straight, you were facing the center of the bar a bit and that might had read as rear cross pressure – watcher move over ot the far side of the bar on the first rep. Then at :17, when she did turn left on the wrap, I didn’t see anything in that moment that cued it, unless she is used to seeing a slight pull before you rear cross her? So it might have been her guessing about where the toy throws would be, or even slight pressure from the previous reps.
Also, look at that rep in slow motion (I slowed it down to 25% on YouTube in order to have proper obsessing :)) She was turning to her right til inches before takeoff, then something caused her to change her mind at liftoff – could have been that you stopped moving, and that is accidentally built into rear crosses? Then freeze it at :18 when you turned and threw the reward – that is a complete rear cross line, so it is possible she saw that happening on the other reps and was just being a complete over-achiever 🙂 Smart dogs, requiring us to have to slow things down to 25% LOL!!! So it would be interesting to see if you decel, turn, front cross all before takeoff – would she still turn left?You were facing that rear cross diagonal with Sole too on the go throws and a little on the wrap at :47. You were a little rotated at 1:05 for Presto’s first go rep – and he almost turned into you, reading the rotation. Then look at 1:09, how he moves over to the rear cross side of the bar. At 1:19 you were also rotated for the go throw and at 1:32, you decelerated and rotated to throw, so he turned towards you a bit.
I am having a bit of an a-ha moment about why Nikko would consider rear crosses – she might be trained to be sensitive to that slight rotation pressure as a rear cross cue. Sole and Presto don’t really have rear cross cues that look like that so they are less likely to turn away in this scenario, but they both did feel some pressure based on their other responses.
So, how to fix? Easy! Throw the reward with your dog side arm. They were on your left here, so throwing with the left will keep you facing forward. It might result in crazy throws if your left is not your dominant arm, but the dogs will enjoy those haha! Throwing with the outside arm is causing rotation in your running line, which might be causing the questions you are seeing (especially from Nikko rear crossing and Presto turning towards you).
Mainly, the suggestions are about slight changes to reinforcement! Commitment is looking great so I think you are totally on the right track. 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Emmie had an easier time with this by the end – it is ok that she offered turning the other way on the wing a couple of times, I think she was trying to avoid the tempting tunnel 🙂 She can get a half cookie reward for that hahaha – it is a reward for effort and for realizing it was not the tunnel, and those rewards will keep her success rate high. The big exciting rewards can come for the double whammy of the wing AND the correct direction.For the next session, you can start with the wing wrap to wake up that value before getting her all excited about the tunnel, that might make the entire session smoother! And you can also take the same approach as with Kip: 2 or 3 sessions of ONLY the wing or jump, no tunnels – the tunnel is present but does not get cued – to raise the value of “do the thing near the tunnel but don’t take the tunnel”. She will have a faster learning curve here because she has more foundation with wing wraps, probably.
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracySorry! I am using 2 devices and trying to stand up rather than sit on my butt all day… well, clearly I was not paying enough attention haha! Anyhow, here are some thoughts about Kippy 🙂
I am glad we are tackling this, especially if it has been a trouble spot in the past. I did notice that he was reading the exact angle of all toes on your foot LOL!!! I think the tunnel is a giant visual and a giant draw for him, so an idea: only do the wing or jump for a couple of sessions – no balance. All reps are some form of the wing or jump (wrap, front, back) and the tunnel is there, like a neutral thing that is just sitting there but never gets used. I think this will help him understand that we can do a thing near a tunnel that is not a tunnel 🙂 His generation was NOT taught this early on, unfortunately, so we are kind of in catch up mode (sorry, Kippy & Voodoo generation!).
And if the tunnel being neutral by close by is too much, you can move the wing or jump further away. I mention the jump because the other thing to try is NOT using the wing, but instead using a jump. The wing is theoretically the better starting point because we assume that the value for the wing is super high, because that is how they were trained early on… but that might not be the case for him. The value of the jump might be higher than the wing, plus the jump is a bigger visual as compared to the tunnel – so it might be better to start this with a jump and not with the wing. That way you won’t have to be perfect in the handling and the verbal cues will get even stronger.
When you do add the motion into this, we will definitely look at what handling is needed (and check out the layering game I added today, there is a discrimination element there too and it can be done with handling). We will definitely look at the handling because you’ll be using these skills at the Open! Yay!He was really starting to get it by the end of the session, so I think you are on the right track here.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is going well – a few suggestions to hopefully get it perfect!
Go looked good on all the go reps!
For that very first left with the jumps – the left verbal was early, but he had just gotten paid for he GoGoGo, so he didn’t turn. Then he got it – but then with the early left (before he entered the tunnel), he turned left on the tunnel exit especially because you had turned
Using only the left verbal in this scenario would require perfect timing, and that is too hard to do consistently. So instead of left left left for all of it, we can change the timing/rhythm of the verbals to get it more consistent and then easier to understand (and not requiring of perfect timing :))
So maybe try this for this type of scenario:
Go go go, early and often, that is working like a charm : )
When you want the jump then the left turn: tell him to jump before the tunnel and as he is in it, then add the left after he exits.
When you want the left turn on the tunnel exit, tell him left before he enters.And you can change the tone of the left versus the go: the GO should be big and loud. The jump and left cues can be softer in volume and a little longer: lefffft. It will sound different enough that he can process it.
You can also spread things out a bit to make it closer to competition distance, so he has more time to process which way to go over the jumps when there is a turn, and adds challenge to the go line – they look a little close together.
Nice work here! He is going to be well-prepared for when you see the dog walk in the middle of the course. Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He is getting the idea with the distance games! Super!
for the tunnel brake on the 2nd rep try it further away like from the wing – same exact physical and verbal cues, same timing – just not from ahead of him so he can still make the same turn with you behind himThe left verbal is coming along nicely on the tunnel – he got it even though you were facing forward (that pre-tunnel timing worked well). The right on the tunnel exit was even better!
Jump right was great on that first rep! Jump – left was good at :52- the left was late. You said jump nice and early but there were a couple of heartbeats before the left, which is why he didn’t jump in extension but also was not quick to turn left. The rhythm of it was “jump…..left!” And I think it will be more timely if you did it more like “jumpleft”. That can give him the info sooner to get the better turn, especially since I think he is slightly better at turning right than turning left.
I liked the rhythm of it a lot better at 1:01 (jumpleft) but you also swung the toy thrower back over your shoulder as if to throw, and that took his mind entirely off the agility LOL! At 1:09, he did commit but he was all about trying to follow the ball throw at that point – you were ever-so-slightly facing the right turn line, so he offered that.
Then the jump right at 1:20 had a little too much go on it (sounds like you repeated go, and go can be softer there) and all, he has tremendous ball feelings LOL! The other option is to just use the jump jump jump verbal in those scenarios rather than go – jump is also a bit of a forward cue and can help get the left or right elements more timely. Then he got a bit into trying to offer various things to get the ball to be thrown (but yes, the go on worked great at the end because… ball feelings LOL!)So overall there is a lot of great stuff! But maybe switch to the ball in your hand and don’t move to throw it until he has gotten things correctly. Yes, the ball throw will be late but it is not a precision behavior, so a it of late rewarding is fine to help get more focus forward. I know it sounds counterintuitive to reward late in order to get more focus forward, but I think the visual of the chuckit thing moving was hurting the focus forward more than it was helping (yes, we can work through him watching the thrower move, but we can also change type and timing of reward so we can work on other things).
Since you have access to the dog walk… you can wheel it over the tunnel so it is perpendicular to the tunnel then do these little sequences with the dog walk in your way, like it will be on course in this scenario. We won’t be posting official games for that because the course only required 3 jumps and a tunnel but since you have access to the dog walk – feel free to add to the fun 🙂 When you do add the dog walk, there will be handling support and that is fine, because you will still be 20, 30, 40 feet away.
He did really well with the discriminations!!! He started off with a lot of questions but then I was really happy to see him get better and better, finishing with a high rate of success! Yay! You did have some handling help going, but that is fine – there is always going to be some handling help, and the handling help here is pretty minimal because a lot of the motion looked similar.
I think he did better with the jump there versus just the wing, so definitely keep the jump. He seems best at the front side of the jump versus tunnel discrim, and the backside is the hardest one – there were a few reps where he was almost in the tunnel before he processed the backside cue and went to the jump. Whew! So for the next session, you can ‘warm up’ the skill by having the jump and tunnel further apart, then after a couple of successes, move them together. He seemed to have no trouble when you built it to the mini sequences, in fact I think it made more sense to him and he was more successful 🙂The other thing to build on the jump-tunnel discrimination is to look at the layering game that was posted today. Theoretically it is about layering… but you will also see a tremendous amount of jump-tunnel discrimination particularly in the balance moments.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This little Promise pup definitely has big opinions, I love it!!
Looking at these videos – on the first one, she gets really mad when you are not connected enough, She is not really having any trouble with the discrimination part of it, she seems to easily know when it is a wing and when it is a tunnel (we are seeing that all of our MaxPup baby dogs are having zero problems with this, yay!! – but when you are not connected properly, she does not know which side of you to be on and then she gets mad. Add in that your feet were not moving much on the wing wraps, your feet were stationary – so she had lots of opinions to offer.By not connecting properly, what I mean is that your were using more of an arm cue to get her attention on the new side and then try to send her, but dogs don’t really read arms all that well (especially young dogs).
You can see this on the first rep, at :36, 1:06, 1:30.
Dogs (especially youngsters) read eye contact – so as she is coming around the first wing, keep your arm back and make eye contact with her – try not to use your arms much at all, for now. Then as she gets to the correct side, you can step forward to the wing and give a little arm swoosh.
When you had motion and connection to the tunnel? No problem!
And because this is kind of hard with youngsters, if you mess it up – give her a reset cookie then start over. That will help reduce her rage LOL!!!!
With Breeze, you had more motion (watch your dog-side foot stepping to the wing as he was coming to the correct side)and more connection (watch how your arm was back and you made some eye contact) – plus he is far more experienced, so he was perfect 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know if the connection idea for Promise makes sense!
TracyGood morning!
Thank you for your update – fun stuff!!!>> WOW, I went to an AKC trial this weekend and the courses were really tight for my big strided Mookie.
Yes, that is something I have seen too – tight spacing in AKC (and other places too of course :)) It is hard for the big striding dogs for sure!
>>Tunnel discriminations were every where.
Yes 🙂 AKC already had a lot of those as part of the course design elements, but now they are getting into the tunnel-jump discrims with us handlers not being as close to the dog, which makes it much harder 🙂
>>We did well the first day, getting our very first premiere jumpers leg on an extremely technical course and then we knocked 2 bars in the regular JWW tight course.
Congrats! Good runs!!!
The second day Mookie locked into wrong course tunnels blowing past me. He has never done this before. He ran a muck. He has been such a good boy but thought I wanted these tunnels ??? This was new for him not follow me.
We need to work on this so your tunnel jump discrimination work is so timely for us.>>My guess is that with the tighter spacing, the info had to come sooner – he was not ignoring you, you were just late LOL!!! So for tight spacing, you might have to start giving the turn info while he is over the jump before the turn or even 2 jumps before it!
>>1) We did have fun with the skill sets this week. Independent tunnels went well for both dogs. Mookie is fast and too independent. Buddy my thinker is slower but is realible >>
Totally now take that into the tunnel-jump discrims – plus the new games for this week will help top!
>>2) Both dogs did well with the gos and turning right or left on jumps out of a tunnel for your set ups.
Yay! Also useful for tight spacing.
>>3) For the non traditional Discrims with the tunnel front of jump both dogs took several reps to do the tunnel or jump with just verbals. Once motion was added they were fine.
Now you can add more motion into it – and also look at the layering game I added this week. Yes, it is about layering… but there is a heavy tunnel-jump discrimination element that I think you and Mookie will find helpful 🙂
>>The crazy thing Mookie did at the trial was when there was a table then 2 jumps leading to the mouth of a tunnel and we had to turn off to another jump just before the mouth of a tunnel. When I released Mookie from the table he took of like a heat seeking missle to the far end of the tunnel I thought was not even in play. I was too shocked but and went on but I should have used the fix and go which I will now be more conscious of to use. Mookie has never done this before. But, now I know to watch out for it.
We really need to practice turns at the mouths of tunnels. I will be aware of his naughtiness for my next trial and am glad I have time now to train for this. >>My guess is that he was not naughty… you were probably late with the cues, or you were saying the verbal but still running forward so the motion overrode the verbal cue. He is a good boy, so I don’t think he was ignoring the cues, I think he just needs to learn more about discriminations and also you can still use physical cues even when you are not ahead of him.
>>What stronger cues can I use to get him to turn away from a tunnel entrance in front of him. He was too far ahead of me to clap and he chose not to hear my verbal ??
My best guess is that you were running forward and even if you used the verbal, your body cue was probably sending him into the off course tunnel. So, you can lead out more so you can show him deceleration and also turn. You can also do a spin for now, and then as he gets better at verbals overriding motion, you’ll be able to fade the spin out. So definitely as you plan your handling, you can add in physical cues with the verbals, even if your are not ahead. And on tight spacing, you can do it really early and see what he does!
Let me know what you think! Have fun 🙂
TracyGood morning! I am glad you got to go to the cabin and have fun, sounds like a lovely weekend!!!
>> on Friday morning I did the tunnel with a jump and worked on the left side. I think I only did turn out of the tunnel with Sole. Otherwise I was working the go straight and then turn on the jump. Once I got the timing right (definitely needed to hear the jump verbal just as they were emerging from the tunnel) it was lovely!>>
Yes, all 3 dogs did really well here! Timing the jump verbal to be happening as they were exiting the tunnel definitely helped. The only other timing suggestion os for Nikko – throw the go reward sooner to keep convincing her to look straight, she wants to tilt her head towards you – so you can throw as soon as you see her begin to step forward for now, and then after a few more sessions you can begin to delay it again.
The next step on these is to take your running out – your goal in the next session is that the dogs do not see you ahead of them at the exit of the tunnel. Picture this tunnel being under a dog walk, so you would have to remain on the other side of the dog walk while they propel away to the jump. You can still move into it, but start at a wing wrap pretty far from the tunnel and be moving – but not getting ahead and try not to go past the middle of the tunnel. That way the dogs will need to get pretty independent on the jump. I think they are all ready for that.
On the 2nd game here, the MM out ahead on the short tunnel definitely helps the girls to run straight! Nikko is the dog that needs to the most convincing to go straight but she was doing really well here!!! And the soft turns with all 3 were really strong, easy peasy especially for the girls. The lack of motion you had here will fit nicely into the previous game where we want to now begin taking your motion out of the picture – you don’t need to be stationary, you just need to be behind them and lateral, so you don’t run into the invisible dog walk LOL!
>> I realized that my set up here might make that a little more challenging since I was not using the tunnel cue since we were too close to the entrance. I might modify THIS training by starting further back so I can be sure to use the “tunnel” cue before adding the directional.>>
I think you will be fine with the discrimination game – adding the tunnel verbal versus a jump verbal (or directional) should be easy for them to pick up 🙂
Great job here! Have fun!
TracyHi! I think that will work, and you can test it by adding more speed into the drill (add a tunnel before the existing tunnel – wheeee!). And you can also repeat the verbals: left left left for example, as well as go on go on go on.
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
Yes, it is really neat to see him working to process the verbals! And it was great to be able to practice this setup – tunnel-under-dog-walk has become very fashionable lately!
He did well with the go go go lines, both with the placed toy and the thrown toy. For this, the next step would be to start further away on the other side of the dog walk, so he learns to carry on to the jump with bigger distance and with you having to be decelerated, due to the dog walk in the way 🙂For the left turns, the earlier verbals will help but also letting him see you turn your shoulders/feet before he enters. I think part of the questions he had were because you were facing straight – he looked at you and then continued on. So if you turn a little before he enters, I think the verbal and the physical cue will work together and the left turns will be easier. And as with the Go, you can start him further backside you can run towards the tunnel and cue the left and also let him see you turn a bit.
And yes, you can totally do this with 10 and 6 foot tunnels! He might not need it, he is doing really well with the 15 foot tunnels – but with the shorter tunnels, he will be able to see the handling support better when the turns get more complicated.
Great job here!!!!
TracyGood morning!
I agree that the backchaining was not as successful – probably because there was not enough motion to support the line with the 3rd jump there. That additional jump creates a discrimination so motion helps (and we can always support with some type of motion on these, it does not have to be done purely on verbals).
Adding the tunnel worked really well! You can add more motion here too – pretending the dog walk is there over the tunnel, you can run forward for the go go go (he seemed to have no trouble with that) and for the right, you can turn and run towards where the teeter is placed here. That way you will be turning and showing motion, but you can do it from 30 feet away as if the dog walk was blocking your running path. That can help for example on the rep where he went straight and you had cued the right. That can be the finial piece of the puzzle here, and then you can keep spreading out the distances 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! She did really well with these, the session seemed pretty perfect. No trouble with the turns, and she did a great job staying out on the lines for the go on over the 2 jumps. I like how you gradually delayed the reward throw for the go on reps, so that she was looking at the jumps and running the line by the end,rather than looking for the ball. Super!!!!!
My only suggestion is to keep timing all of the verbals involving the tunnel exit to come sooner – on some reps you were getting the verbals starting just before entry, and some were starting as she was already in the tunnel. Keep trying for her to see/hear the cues while she is still a solid 3 feet or more from the entry so that she gets all the info. She is really responsive so you might not need the cues t o come 6 feet before the entry, 3 feet should be fine (until she gets onto the big courses at a trial here she is moving faster, then it might turn out that she needs the info even sooner).>> She seemed to have no trouble turning out of the tunnel to come back to me or go over the jump on the side when I said her name as a sort of tunnel break and used “here” or “riri” for the turn. What do you think is a better cue for me to use? Or perhaps both depending on whether there is a jump or she is to return to me at the mouth of the tunnel?
She totally seemed to have no trouble with knowing the difference between the turn and the go cues here! The jury is still out on which cues work best – I think the final decision on that will come when you put this skill into the bigger courses where she is coming into the tunnel at full speed. My guess right now is that her name and “here” will be so moderate looping turn lines and the ririririri can be saved for the tighter right turns – it will depend on the position of the line after the tunnel, and how much speed she has going into it. You can play with this by setting up 2 tunnels and sending her through the first one to get the full speed going, then turn her on the exit of the 2nd one 🙂
>>Another thing you may notice – I used the tennis ball almost exclusively as a reward to chase. Then I treated her at the treat table afterwards. Too bad we can’t use tennis balls in a trial…>>
Yes, she loved the tenny! You can bring the ball into the ring for NFC runs at UKI trials. I suggest training with 2 balls, and start leaving one behind you at the table – so sometimes you throw a ball right there on course, sometimes you do a short little sequence then run to the table and throw the ball kind of like how we would want to reward in a trial setting. That can help her start to learn that the ball is still there as a reward, but after the run like would happen at a trial.
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
Timing is slightly different for each dog on the tunnel cues…>>Before entering the tunnel:
Left / Right means turn at the exit of the tunnel
Jump left / Jump Right means take the jump and then turn
This is HARD for Enzo. Is this Right???!!??
If I cue it 6 feet before the tunnel, it is a long time to remember whether or not to take the jump…>>The cue that is 6 feet before the tunnel should cue the tunnel exit, not the jump. So for the jump, you can tell him to go before he enters the tunnel, or jump – whichever one propels him to the jump better after the tunnel rxit is the winner 🙂 the left or right for the jump can come after he exits so it relates directly to the jump. Let me know if that makes better sense.
Tracy
