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Hi!
>> also wondering about the instructions to stand still instead of stepping forward after dog does the nose touch? is it for shaping the behavior/independence?>>
I think you are referring to the threadle and serp games not the backsides here.
The stand still instructions are for 2 reasons:
First, to help the dogs be correct with the driving in to the handler, particularly when a jump is added. The threadle and serp understanding is precise and subtle, and it gets muddled my motion when the handler moves (most handlers move out of them incorrectly especially in the training stages, stay tuned for more of that). What happens is when the handler moves after the touch, the dog ends up on the wrong line (doesn’t make the second turn that is required for both of these skills) and either ends up on the wrong side of the jump or bypasses the jump.
Second, related to that second turn: both the serp and threadle cues are two-part behaviors for the dogs: come-in then turn-away. These behaviors are similar but placed differently relative to the jump. The initial cue is designed to cue BOTH of these elements and not just the first part (come in). When I say my threadle verbal and show the cue, for example, the entire behavior I am asking for is “come in between me and the jump then turn away taking the jump“. I do not give an additional cue to help the dog take the jump (with a trained dog, I just leave when I see acknowledgement).
So by standing still, we are able to show the dog both elements of the desired response without accidentally building in an additional cue (placement of reinforcement is hugely helpful for that!). If we move after the hand touch (like stepping to the jump on a threadle or pointing to the reward on the serps) then we are possibly creating a reliance on the additional cue, as well as rehearsing undesired handler mechanics.Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyHi! I will get one for you when I get home tomorrow – currently holed up 5 hours from home with one of my dogs getting surgery today (in a snowstorm of course). I also use the PVC frame from my table for early training.
TI didn’t notice the bow the first time, I was too busy cracking up over the chewing. LOL!!! It was like he was chewing boulders LOL!!! But I went back to look for the bow: SO CUTE!!!!!!!!
T
LOL! That is awesome!
I thought of a variation of your backside slice game – you can roll up some towels as jump bars and lay them on the line you want over, so he gets the visual of a ‘bar’ and still works the backside of the wing. Then you can switch sides, and he can do parallel path over the towel bar and you can be on the outside of the wings. I figure the weather is going to be poopy for a bit, so creativity for indoor agility is needed 🙂T
Good morning!
>>Again, we are a bit all over the place.
This is normal 🙂 And good! Variety is good with puppies!
>>Back in week 3, on the stay work, I feel good with the catch it and “OK”. Her understanding of the stay concept is improving and mostly staying away from “stay dang it, attitude”. >>
Excellent!
>>I am a bit confused about the “get it”. Not to mention, I use that when I want her to bring something back which we will get to shortly.>>
It depends on how you want to use ‘get it’. I use it as a cue to move to something that I have tossed like a toy I have tossed (and ideally bring it back too LOL!). The catch is a ‘stay there, it is coming to you’ cue and the release is basically a ‘come to me’ cue.
>>Also, from week 3, she is 100% into the party of 1 mode or chase me to get it. >>
Ah! I feel that pain LOL!!!! Yes, keep working it, making it super fun to bring it back (or, honestly, don’t run off with it LOL!). It is important that when she brings it back or when she doesn’t run off with it, that you don’t take it away. You might be taking it from her to start the next game or training rep… but she might be thinking “wait, mom took the toy away, forget it, I will not bring it back”. So I either trade for another toy, or play tug then let her keep the toy. And if her toy play is good, I often trade for a treat at this age.
,>> she will get it and bring it back when she feels like it (if there is a trade in play and / or I am retreating slowly).
That is good! Keep going with those to help condition her to bring it towards you.
>>But if retreating too aggressively, she will just drop it and come running.>>
That is good too, better than running away with the toy 🙂
Have you seen the free Toy Transitions class on Facebook? There are games that can help the retrieve. I will find the link. It is free and might give some good ideas.
>>>Week 4, strike a pose…we are doing well. I need to focus on adding more distraction. With food in the far hand, she will hit the target and then go for the food. Again need to try it with favorite toy more before moving to part 2.>>>
Perfect, we want her to hit the target hand then go to the reward. With the food reward, you can also put an empty food bowl on the ground and have her hit the target then go to the bowl when you drop the treat in it. Sounds like she is ready for the toy, too!
>>Week 5 Running Foundations, we have been mixing it up. I have an old ST carpet, which she did good on. She will run thru a mat. And she will run thru a slightly elevated plank (it’s more of a puppy trot). I have backed off from that until we do more mat work on the ground with real running…>>
Also excellent. Puppy trotting is fine – have you added a toy to that game? And the plankrobatics will help with the elevated plank too, giving her more understanding of where to put her feet.
>>Week 6 Wing wraps – with the 2 barrels about 6 feet apart she did a great job with me in all positions. When I moved them about 10 feet apart, she had issues with the sideways and back sends.>>
Good news not the 6 feet! When you get to 10 feet – you can help her out with shifting your connection from her eyes to the barrel on those sideways and backwards sends. So you will start by looking at her, and when she is looking at you and ready: your arm, leg and eyes will all move to the barrel. That can help on those sideways and backwards sends. If you have been trying that and she is still questioning it, you can try to get closer – 7 feet or 8 feet – and see how she does. You can also shift the placement of reinforcement to the other side of the barrel, to build more value for leaving you for the barrel.
It sounds like she is doing really well!! Keep me posted! And thank you for the update 🙂
Tracy>> Ok at about 0.15 you have your outside arm up…why?>>
That outside arm was showing a stylized cue for the backside at a distance used in some parts of Europe (and Russia) to allow the handler to be waaaaay far across the bar and not have to step to the entry wing. (The puppy hadn’t seen it before so I was not far across the bar)
Hi! I think the mat has a lot of value, but maybe not yet a lot of verbal cue recognition? He definitely likes it 🙂 I think for now with the mat, you can use more handling to help because if he gets an amazing hit – we don’t want to tell him he is wrong (even if you wanted the tunnel LOL!!) So for the mat, you can use a send arm/leg to indicate it and a distinct send to the tunnel. You can also play the various games with the tunnel nearby, like the banana line or back and forth games – and sometimes send him out to the tunnel. I think in a few more weeks of adding the verbal, you’ll be able to revisit it and fade out the physical cue so he does it just on a verbal 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
I put together a quick video – the first 2 reps are the backside wraps (360s, reverse wraps, whatever people like to call them LOL!) On those, the dog enters on the takeoff side and exits to the next line on the takeoff side of the same wing – a full 360.The rest of the reps are the various degrees of slice. On anything I consider a slice, the dog enters on the takeoff side but exits to the next line on the landing side except on the wrap exits like a German turn, where the dog exits on the takeoff side but on the *other* wing (not the entry wing).
>>BTW did the backside games for first time with Robbie today and he nailed it!>>
Yay Robbie! Brilliant!!
>>Do you have vid showing how fast to move/position yourself to show the dog the serp line after they go around the backside of the wing?
On the video, you will see a couple of German turns with my black dog – the key is not how fast you move, but how far across the bar from that parallel line you can send the dog to the backside 🙂 You can see the dog is going to the backside on the verbal cue and minimal physical cue, so all I needed to do was run past the exit wing to show the line. Let me know if that is what you meant.
Tracy
Hi!
For me, backside wraps are full 360 degree wraps. The slices can be the very severe slices but also less severe where the dog ends up a little more back towards where he started. Let me grab some video and compare 🙂Hi! Do you mean your start position? You should be within an arm’s length to start it, to ideally get the pups bending before the arrive at the bar. For people with short arms like me, you should be able to reach out and touch the wing with a relaxed, bent arm. Lots of folks are starting a little too far away so you will want to be close enough that the pup has to turn as he approaches the jump so he lines himself up nice and tight between you and it. This goes for both the serp and threadle.
But even if we humans are not very close to start, we add motion in and that helps get the pups turning nice and tight too 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyOMG your description cracked me up!!!! I totally feel the whole “walking up and down the small space without the dog” thing LOL!!!!!! But, it worked perfectly for you. He nailed it! Yay! The only question he had was when you stopped moving on one rep but the rest were great! You can see how letting him see the line to the wing and some connection allowed him to slide around the backside. Yay! And, another positive benefit: he was turning his head To lead into the turns, so he was nice and bendy around the wing! Super yay!
The next steps will involve more distance and so on, but you can put that off til there is less white stuff everywhere.Great job here!!!
TracyI like the word “scenarios”, it describes it really perfectly.
Yes, Jordan does use the mat. And she has her own variations – she’s a really talented dog trainer and handler 🙂Hi! He was adorable and brilliant here! The chewing: adorable! LOL! Because he actually chews… to get the speed and the rhythm going, you should drop one tiny kibble in the bowl and then when you are in the ‘warm up’ where you immediately drop the next kibble – wait til he has finished chewing or on the last chomp then drop the next kibble in the next bowl. You were not wrong to drop the kibble when you did here, but he liked to chew it 3 or 4 times so it was taking him a bit longer LOL!!
When you get into the ‘offer going around the cone’ part of the session which he was doing in the 2nd half of the video here, you don’t need to wait for him to finish chewing because the next cookie comes after he goes around the cone. You don’t need to wait til he gets all the way to the bowl before you put the cookie in it, you can plop that cookie in as soon as he decides to go around the cone. He was doing a GREAT with that so I think he will keep getting even quicker with it! As soon as his belly is back to 100%, go to something soft and tiny to really get the speed going (so he doesn’t need to chew LOL!!)Great job!!
TracyHi!
>>Jordan wanted him to do more work with an elevated target and a larger one since when we swithced to using Spiderball to amp him up more and get him out of a trot, he started focusing on me too much and not sending out to the target. So here’s his banana line with the Cato board. So he’s experimenting with just launching right over the entire thing even when I dialed back my excitement and motion.
Adding the favorite toy definitely changes internal state of arousal! You can have the favorite toy there and visible… but change up the reinforcement so the ball if visible but he gets a treat then a ball toss. So it is arousing but not *that* arousing :)) And also he probably just needs a couple more sessions of you walking slowly. When you tried to walk more quickly, he would leap – but when you were nice and slow, he was really good (I don’t think Jordan has us moving yet LOL!). So stay slow and mix in treat-then-ball and see how he does.
>>Should I be going back the other way if that happens or circling around for another rep in the same direction? Or does that matter?>>>>
I watched it to see if there was a pattern – was he leaping only one direction and fine the other? But it seemed like he was great on both sides and would sometimes leap on both sides. It looked more related to the stimulation of the ball and how fast you are moving. You can add more motion with treats and do less motion with the ball, then the 2 will merge together quite nicely in a short while 🙂
Great job!
TracyYay! Glad it all makes sense! The glories of being able to put videos on a big screen in slow motion is really helpful for figuring out what these youngsters need LOL!!
And I totally appreciate the fine line between “omg I must stay connected” and “omg the freight train is coming I need to HUSTLE” LOL!!!!! It gets easier as the young dogs develop more understanding but it is definitely a tightrope act at this stage 🙂
Tracy
