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Good morning! Sorry for any confusion!
>>Question on throwing reward sooner. Do you mean after first obstacle, after line of obstacles or both lol? >>
After the first obstacle – throw it to the landing side of 1 a whole lot, especially as you are moving away. So as soon as she is heading to 1, you are throwing the toy and moving away up the line so she maintains her commitment even as you are getting outta there. Dogs are great are going to where they predict the reinforcement will be – so if the reinforcement is after 2 or nearer to you, she will want to drive to you and that might reduce commitment to 1. But if she gets a TON of reinforcement on landing of 1, she will commit strongly even when you leave super early to get to the next part of the course.
Let me know if that makes sense, or if I need more coffee 🙂
TracyGood morning!
I totally know the Bless Your Heart thing LOL!!! It was the first thing I learned here.
>> I saw I left a rep of Wager when I was giving Spot a break. Not intentional, just had the video running and didn’t get it edited out.>>
No worries! It is good to see Wager too 🙂
Spot did well here! He had a couple of questions that we can clarify for him to clean up the trouble posts.
Starting with the Forced Front Crosses,
The 1st 2 reps were good – 3rd rep he took the front, so I tried to see what was different? The release was a little different (ok versus spot ok – more on the release verbals later but it is possible that the name call put him more into front side focus) and you were more visible over the bar (between the uprights) particularly the position of your right leg (outside leg). The right leg was back, so he might be reading your legs as an indicator – on the previous 2 reps, your feet moved forward a little as he was landing from 1.
You helped him more with a more obvious hand cue on the next reps – I think the clear hand cues are very helpful! You can lower your hand for sure on the FFC, lean over a little so he sees it. And be aware of the leg position, keeping them a little closer together.About the release verbals – releasing to take the first jump with an OK or his name plus OK is good, but then you got quiet and that did not differentiate the front from the back. The general release could be for either, and ok is probably used more often for the front side. So, after the release, use your threadle verbal to help him differentiate front from back.
You were using your threadle verbals during the threadle moments and he responded really well 🙂
Another question I see him asking here (on the FFCs and the threadles) is about the default commitment to jump 2. When you are close to the jump and step to it – he commits like at :28. But if you are a little further and step away like at :23 and :32 – he does not commit. He was also jumping with an inverted style over 2 (head up, kind of a last minute jumping choice) which is also a sign of a question.
So, change your placement of reinforcement to help develop the default and the head-down jumping – the reward on the very first rep was throw to the slice landing side of 2 (not near you or near 3) – that is the ideal placement (either thrown there or placed there). On all the other reps, the rewards came near you or near 3, so he was driving to where the reinforcement was coming, especially when your motion was moving that direction (it inadvertently puts too much emphasis on following you and not enough emphasis on looking at jump 2). Changing the placement will help create the default of taking #2 and then you will find it much easier to be able to move your position further up the line. For now, keep the bar lower at 2 so he can drop his head and sort out the change of placement.
He did well with the threadles and the in in verbal is very helpful! Nice!!!! As with the FFCs, I suggest a change in the placement of reinforcement to allow you to be able to move your position up the line and leave sooner. For example, at 1:23 and 1:40 the exit of the threadle was correct in terms of your motion… but he didn’t understand the commitment independently so he is moving to the reward placement spot (near you and near 3) so he didn’t commit. Having the reward in your hand so it is a quick toss and he doesn’t have to look at you at all will really help get his eyes on the bar for 2 and not on you or your motion.
He had an error at 1:46 – he was lined up facing the front of 1 and 2, and I think your position had your physical cue a bit hidden by the wing – as you move up the line, you can exaggerate the upper body position and see if it helps him read it. And lining up an an angle for 1 so he is facing the backside wing of 2 and not the front will help too.
At 2:08 you did exaggerate the upper body a bit, nice clear in in verbal and he was totally coming to the backside… until you moved too soon at 2:09 (he was not yet at the commitment line) and he took the front. He needs one more step of patience (I hate that word hahaha) to be sure he is crossing the commitment plane before you move out of the threadle – I would not uh-oh that moment (the verbal is not overriding motion that early yet, and he dropped the bar to avoid landing on you :))
The timing on the last rep at 2:17 was Spot on, pun intended haha! You moved when he was crossing the commitment plane but before he got to the backside – perfect! He did commit to the jump at 2 but it as a bit last minute, all the way on the other side of it – so I think the main thing will be shifting the placement of reward so he looks for that jump bar and commits a lot earlier to it.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Very smart to be rewarding the stays – I think all of the dogs pair the hand getting into position with the release, so they want to break on the hand. Be sure that you reward after your hand goes into position, they dogs read our hand twitches LOL! I also give one more “stay” cue as I drop my hand into position, a little bit of a reminder. It might be totally superstitious and I might not need it… but I do it anyway hahaKaladin’s FFCs and throwbacks all look great, producing the correct turn for each (slightly wider for the FFC, tighter for the throwback). I think you can start rotating sooner on these – when he is still a foot or two away from the entry wing. It might challenge his commitment but it will be good to see if he can still commit as you leave for your next position.
The throwback when you added distance was harder, so you can break it down – start him right next to the jump on the takeoff side, with you in that “slightly further away” position – and throw back from there. Then you can gradually back chain it to him being on the landing side, then closer to landing of jump 1, then full back to the start on takeoff of jump 1. The threadle might ultimately be the better choice on lead outs but you will probably end up using the throwback mid-course where perfect position is less likely, so it is a good skill to play with.
Threadles were great too – I agree that you were stepping into 2 a bit, and he showed us on the last rep that he didn’t need it. GOOD BOY!!!!! That was really cool to see and it will open up all sorts of handling stuff – you can leave for your next cross or position as soon as you see his head turn to the jump, trusting his commitment. That is a high level skill on a youngster!!!!
>>Decided that I may run Min on this with our familiar backside slice to BC handling just as a warm up for the Open, but not going to do anything with the FFC or threadle handling before the Open.>>
Good decision for Min – these are training games designed to introduce new concepts… which I generally discourage when we are 10 days from a big event with a highly competitive dog LOL!! I mean, if Kaladin was running, we would totally train the skills because baby dogs are still learning all the things. But with competitive adult dogs? We are now entering the bubble wrap stage: keep the dogs loose and healthy and sharp with little bits of skills & drills training. Voodoo ran big courses yesterday and is now bubble wrapped… but the baby dogs will continue to work & train because, well…. baby dogs LOL!
I am sure she would get it and it would be fine, but I also think that at this point we should be playing to your strengths. And, I am pretty sure she is faster when you are hustling and scrambling, She quite enjoys it when you are barely making it to where you need to be LOL!!! So the backside slice/German turn is the way to go for now, as I am 99% sure it will be faster than standing still on a FFC or a threadle for her 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>was a discouraging day when I couldn’t figure out how to handle 180s with my 9 yr old masters-level dog …
That kind of session is insightful, actually, it helps us figure out what she sees and when she sees it 🙂
>and the threadles, don’t even get me started on the threadle disaster which I haven’t posted yet. I thought I was going to have to ask for a pep talk, BUT … Annie just totally nailed the Switch Aways on the first try! I can’t wait to show you the videos. Annie must have known I needed a big win.
Awww good girl Annie!!!!!!!!! Yay! And no pep talk needed for threadles, only cursing and f-words about threadles LOL!!! Threadles are about as difficult as the running dog walk to train: very specific, very difficult, and basically the dogs need to ignore everything about our motion. I have more coming on threadles on Tuesday, so feel free to shake your fist at the threadle gods for now, do some cursing, and we will then figure out what she needs to know about threadles 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyHi there!
>>I was expecting to have trouble with the layering, but it turned out to be super hard to get Annie to take the 180 instead. That said, I’m now totally confused as to why we had so much trouble with the 180 at home. I’m not sure if Annie completely understands her new Round cue, but I still feel like some of my motion must have been showing the 180 and I don’t know why she didn’t read that.>>
After watching both videos… from the handling side of things, your timing of the verbal and shoulder/upper body cue was generally really good! So I think that the questions she had were more about the difficulty of the exercise and not about your handling 🙂
I agree, she needs a moment to process the Round cue. For example, on the first video 2nd rep at :14 – that was some spot on timing and handling! And that was not the only rep – you were generally able to get the info to her before takeoff. I think the latest you were was at :21 on the 2nd video, where she was maybe one stride from takeoff – she should have landed long then turned.
Also on most of her errors, she *did* collect a bit on that jump but then proceeded to the tunnel.She got better and better and then by the end of the 2nd video, she was nailing it and did the full sequence beautifully.
So, game plan: I think that the outside arm really does help her a whole lot! I have more coming about the ‘brake’ hand on Tuesday but instead of using your opposite arm high like a threadle, try using it low, by your hips, pushing downwards – at the same timing as you gave verbal and shoulder turn. That will get a bit more collection and it looks pretty darned different from the threadle cue, so it will help protect the threadle.
You can also give a ‘heads up’ cue” as she is landing from the first jump, you can call her name to basically say “pay attention!” then do the round verbal and physical cues.
The other thing to try is not moving as fast: walk through it rather than run, for now. It is possible that she was collecting and turning on the verbal and physical cues, but there was a lot of motion so she went back to the extension line. So you can slow it down for now (as long as you keep moving, we don’t want you to stop, she is too fast :)) and then we will build it back up to runnng 🙂
>>It was weird because at Teamworks layering is hard for us. I actually love how enthusiastic Annie is in the backyard and I’m hoping to learn how to duplicate that at TW in your Rewards class that starts in a couple weeks. >>
Most dogs are different at home than at trials/training locations – it could be that she is more relaxed at home, so she is more confident. Also it is possible that the rewards are more obvious at home so she drives harder: do you tend to throw rewards more at home, and reward from your hand more at TW? Or do you run without the reward on you at TW (I am guessing yes, at trials :)) We can look at this in the reward class for sure!!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
Yay for the tunnel party with Kaladin! He was flying 🙂 Worst case scenario is that we get some off course tunnels early in his career but so far he seems to be able to process the turn cues and jump cues when asked! Super!!! He seemed to be at his best and fastest and tightest when the discriminations were in more of the sequence, so you can work this stuff using the layering setup – for some reason, it just makes more sense to him! And the backside cues will get easier as he gets more experienced – he had to think hard on those 🙂
This is a perfect setup for Min, though, pre-Open! I am guessing we will see a backside near a tunnel at least once. When she was struggling, I think she was locked onto the tunnel at the exit of the wing wrap. So you can try a ‘heads up’ cue of calling her name once after the wing wrap and then shifting to the backside cue and see if that helps, especially in those early reps. She was getting it much better as the session went one, but we can focus on getting her to nail it on the very first rep.
I think her questions about the PT, slice, reward were more about her being excited on the big line and learning the backside discrimination- I think having the PT out there really gets her excited, like a trial and that is useful! You can do the next session without it, tossing a reward… then if that is really successful, put it back in to see if you can get those backsides when she is excited and looking down the line 🙂
Nice job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Kaladin did great with the tunnel drive here! And I was very happy with that first right turn – even after those big tunnel sends, he nailed it. On the next right turn at :31, he collected but couldn’t quite resist the tunnel – but was perfect on the next reps with the right. Awesome!!!! And yes, I guess having the jump a little further away made it easier for him to drive to the tunnel.With Min, with the US Open coming up in 2 weeks, I agree – I would not suggest tooo much emphasis on layering with verbals overriding body language like at :29 and :49 – she got it but had questions. We are too close to the Open to open up that can of worms LOL! Instead, do more of what you did at :58 and on the last rep: making sure she knows how to NOT take the tunnel with the right verbal 🙂 And also you can start way back and use the verbal and physical cues to drive her ahead of you to the tunnel, even with the jump there (your foot speed will allow you to not have to layer, but it will be good for her to leave you in the dust on tunnel cues even with a jump nearby, if that makes sense :)) You can always revisit more layering work after the Open if you want her to ignore physical cues.
Great job with both of them!
TracyHi! This went well with the girls, no problems at all that I could see!
With Nikko you can really see the focus forward understanding, good girl and nice countermotion! The more you leave early, the more you will want to toss the toy to the landing to really help maintain that beautiful commitment.Sole also did a great job – she has lots of focus forward and commitment so it was easy for her.
When you added distance away from 1 at 1:24, be sure that she is moving towards the jump before you take off – you twitched too soon so she didn’t commit. That extra heartbeat at 1:26 made all the difference and she committed perfectly. Being that far away puts you in a great position, so you can afford to wait for that extra heartbeat here.
She is a little wide on the exits here, not quite digging in as much as we want her to – so unlike Nikko, where I recommend tosses to the landing side as you leave, I think for Sole you should get a long rope to attach the toy to and then drag it along the ground so she chases you out of the wrap. That will get her to tighten herself up really nicely 🙂 and kick up the dirt chasing the next line.
Presto did well! You made it a little harder for him by doing it at full height so he had to make his decision really early, which he was basing on positional cues more than verbal because that is what he saw first.
He started off well! At 1:44, the position started to change a little – you were center of the bar with him and moving a little so it looked like you were shaping a rear cross – your arm position was good but your feet looked like they were together – so that paired with standing on the center line, did look like rear cross pressure (note how he offered that in both directions, so it was not just a side preference thing).
At 2:16 you were on a rear cross side of the jump, so any motion looked like you wanted the left turn there.
Look at the very last rep (2:21) – you had your left leg Definitely forward pointing to the wing, along with your left arm – he was perfect. 🙂
So a couple of things to try – you don’t need to do only one direction, but you will want to be careful of your positional cues on the start. He can be on a more severe slice line and also try to have your arm and leg clearly forward to the wing you want like you did on the last rep. Start by having your position more on the wrap side to help cue the wrap you want. I think standing up more will help too – leaning over and moving presenting some subtle pressure into the line, which he reads as rear cross when you are center of the bar or past it on the RC side. Also, start with just a wing, to get him in the groove of the wrap, then add back the bar.Let me know if the ideas for Presto make sense! I think he will read them really well.
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
We all do some wrist flicky thing, that is how I knew to look for it LOL!!!!! I am a total wrist flicker haha
This was a great non-wrist flick session LOL!! I think when we trial we accidentally pair motion into the release, so definitely keep revisiting the value of ‘don’t release til the word ‘ 🙂 After the release, though, he was a superstar – totally reading the lines on both the FFC and the threadles. Yay!
You can leave sooner on the forced fronts – as soon as he is close to the wing, you can leave for the next line (probably about a foot from the wing). Same with the threadles – as soon as he is within a foot on the entry wing, you can leave – he is reading these really well too! I especially love that he is turning to look for the bar and not just following motion GOOD BOY!!!! You were a shade early at 1:33 – he was many halfway between 1 and the backside wing and you stepped forward, so he almost took the front. I think eventually you will be able to do that, but not quite yet.
Now, looking at when you want to use the FFC versus the threadle – I think the threadle produces a tight turn on the exit, similar to the throwback. And since the throwback requires extra motion and timing, might as well do the threadle which is easier to cue. The throwback will have applications mid-course, so we can look for them elsewhere.
The full FFC produces a wider turn on the exit, so if you need an extension line and not a wing wrap on the exit of the backside, the FFC is a good choice!On the wraps – when starting on jump 2, we don’t want him to release the instant he sees the cue, so you can do something similar to what you did at the beginning by showing him the wrist motion and body position – and then release. His mistakes right at the beginning were because he was trying to go as soon as he was released, and hadn’t quite processed the cue. He figured it out nicely after that!!
And starting him from jump 1 was also helpful because he had a lot more time to process the cue: hand, verbal, position. His success rate was nice and high, especially with less motion (processing is much harder when we run LOL!)So, next session: more balance reps 🙂 front side versus backside slice, and then separately front side versus backside wrap. Eventually build up to slice versus wrap! And then eventually we can add more speed/motion to it, but for now it is more about differentiating. I think starting him on jump 1 helps him because he has time to process between landing of 1 and commitment to 2.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Great job with the weave-tunnel turn away – both of the skills you worked are skills we are seeing on course nowadays (tunnel-weave, weave-tunnel). Super!!! You can add a jump straight out ahead, so you can balance with going straight on the exit of the weaves or tunnel, versus turning away to the weaves or tunnel.
And your feet were great! I bet as the verbal gets even stronger, you won’t need feet much at all but what you did here was spot on.Nice work!! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> I just checked your video as to when to begin the motion out of the In-In. I was waiting until Nuptse was turning to the bar before moving. You began as the dog came around the wing.
Ideally, we start to move away before the dog gets to the wing, but that when the commitment is super solid. For now, you can move when Nuptse was turning to the bar – that motion affirms his good decision!
When you are standing still, I don’t think you need as much hand shaking anymore – the value is shifting to the bar now (hooray!) and so the hand staying in motion is actually pulling his attention off of it a little.
The timing of adding motion here on the last couple of reps was great! Yay!
So, the next step: going back to standing still, but no reward on the ground – no motion, just standing there and as soon as his head turns to the bar, throw the reward (with whichever hand feels better – I throw with my threadle hand).
Then eventually add in some motion. The high rate of success is really helping to solidify things!
And you can give the skill a couple of days off in between too, to let latent learning work its magic 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
I think you are totally getting what she needs, this went well! A couple of ideas for you:About the turns on the jumps:
Jump right works well! And later on, jump left works well too!
Good timing!
(And you can also work the turns on the tunnel exit rather than carrying out to the jump, I don’t think you did any of those but that are a good balance in this game)One thing to add: you can mix the reps up more so she doesn’t see/hear any cue more than twice in a row so she is not patterning 🙂 Also, you can differentiate the verbals with physical cues as well – you can show the physical cue between the wing and the tunnel and then she can finish the job without you.
So what I would suggest is the following in terms of the space between the wing and the tunnel:
As she is exiting the wing wrap, cue the tunnel:
– if you want the GO, also accelerate and start the go so the big loud verbals are supported by a few steps of acceleration
– If you want the turn on the tunnel exit and not the jump, start the verbals early and also show a physical cue after the verbal– For the jump after the tunnel, you can cue the jump and then face forward, turnin to the right or left after she is exiting. This is what you were doing here (especially on the lefts) and it looked great!!
Hearing the verbal then seeing the supporting physical cue will really help solidify the verbals. You are definitely on the right track and this is looking good!!!
Let me know what you think! Great job!
TracyGood morning!
Hooray for Breeze using his leg! I am so happy to hear that he is doing so well 🙂
Promise did really well here! She had a really lovely balance of commitment, tight turns and SUPER FAST 😁 She seemed to do really well with both options for this!! The backwards send gets the super tight turn and the forward sending gets a slightly wider turn, which is great – you can choose based on what the sequence requires.
Start on more of an angle for all of these, so it is almost a severe slice – she is ready for more challenge on the line up position 🙂
One other thing to add: Throw the reward do that you can leave even sooner – you started doing this later in the video, but for a baby dog I recommend doing it more like 75% of the time 🙂 She is very excited to get on the line and very fast, so we almost want to over-balance the reward on the landing side so she always maintains this fabulous commitment.
One thing you can add as you throw the reward is always be moving away. So you cue, move away, but throw the reward to the landing spot (yes, you might need a third arm haha!). This will get even more commitment and get you to great spots on course (she is FAST!!!!) and it will also bubble over into excellent commitment on sends and wraps 🙂And of course you can mix in rewards for stays on the board – I left one of my stay rewards in the video but I reward at least 5 or 6 times for the stay in every session 🙂
And no worries about the tunnel out in the distance LOL!!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This was an interesting session with both, and also very helpful!!
First up, River:
The GO is strong in her LOL!!! The value of the jump is very high, and that is good 🙂 So we need to help convince her of the tunnel turns and also when you want the jump and not the tunnel.I don’t have any problem with your cue timing – this is more about helping her process the cues 🙂 Your cues were timely and clear, and when she wasn’t getting it – you made them clearer 🙂
Here are some ideas to help her sort it out:
Helping her with the physical cue for the left was the key. I think also the tunnel is so long that it is possible that she processes the cue then forgets but the time she exits, so maybe a shorter tunnel? That way the time between the cue and the tunnel exit is much shorter so she can retain the cue better. You can probably squish the tunnel up for now, and then gradually extend it again when you see that she is getting the turns.
Also, when you do add the jump – for now, an additional cue might help, Iike a jump cue then the left verbal. I don’t think you will always need this, I think it will be useful for now to help her differentiate. Then eventually you can just change the timing of the cues.And for the go, since we don’t want to lose it – for now, have your go cues always supported by big accelerated motion. That way any non-motion cues will, for now, help get her attention for turns.
Two other things that can help:
You can also place the toy out at the end of the tunnel or even the MM on the line for the soft turns after the tunnel, because the jump is such a big distraction: it is fine to be a lure for now, because it will help get the behavior and then it is easy to fade 🙂
And try a head’s up name call before the tunnel – RIVER! Left left left 🙂 Rather than a tunnel cue!I know these are a lot of ideas, but I bet you can play around and see what gets the behavior – then we can easily add more as she gets the idea 🙂
Color me surprised… Chief is similar! I thought because of his shorter stride that he might not have as strong of a GO… I was wrong, he also loves his go 🙂 Both dogs do the Go lines with their heads up, looking for the reinforcement – which also tells me that they are great at learning through reward placement, which is why I suggested placing the rewards in advance for the tunnel exits, then we can fade them.
So with Chief, I would try all the same things you can try with River! It is pretty darned cool to see him finding the big lines!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I hope they at least waited til folks were awake before they started the tree trimming! LOL!
Both dogs did really well here! Some ideas for you:
For Kaladin: He did better exploding to the obstacle when you held his collar and said the cue til he demanded you let go of him- very dramatic head tosses on one or two reps LOL!!! At this moment, the jump seems to have more value than the tunnel. With that in mind, it might be time for Operation OMG TUNNELS ARE AMAZING. He is similar to my Elektra – jumps have a little more value, tunnels are fine but not terribly stimulating, wings are stooooopid. So, since I was too lazy to work that hard on tunnel sends, I did a bunch of sessions of only tunnel sending with amazing rewards. And in the discrimination sessions, I only did tunnels and rewarded the daylights out of them LOL! So the tunnel value increased and now it is nicely balanced with the jumps (although I would be fine if she turned into a tunnel sucking beast for a while haha). And a nice by-product is that her speed overall on course has increased – something about the joy of racing through the tunnel has ‘clicked’ and now she races everywhere on course. For whatever reason, the jump value didn’t produce the same thing – and I think Kaladin is in the same boat! He understands all the things, he prefers jumps… so now let’s make him completely insane for tunnels too. LOL! I promise he won’t lose his mind 🙂
On the angled backside, he was thinking really hard – he knew it was something with the jump but not sure of which side. So to help him out, you can set up his position so he only sees the backside and the tunnel (move to a spot more center between the 2). That way he doesn’t end up with a 3-way discrimination, having to differentiate the backside from the threadle from the tunnel. When you added a little step, it totally helped him as well, so the easier angle and a little step will smooth that all out and allow him to add back the speed (and 80 zillion rewards for the tunnel LOL!
The session with Min and the PT went well, she seemed to have zero questions about driving to the PT (I think she had questions when you first tried this, if my memory is correct?)
For her, she totally said “I GOT THIS, HUMAN!” so now we can add challenge: you can move the wing wrap further back and/or further off to the side (left side of the screen) so you are moving into it with more speed: especially from the angled start, the handling looks similar for the tunnel or jump – the verbals will make the difference and she is totally ready for that (And I am guessing we will see this at the US Open).Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
