Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi again!
I love comparisons! Watching Emmie’s first video, the threadle was clearly faster because you were too far ahead on the backside push and decelerated so she slowed down – and then a little in the way getting out of there. The threadle was well-executed and she was ‘chasing’ you the whole time. So one thing t play with on backside pushes is to deliberately go a bit closer to the previous line (closer to the tunnel in this case) so as she is landing from the jump after the tunnel you are only a couple of steps ahead – then you can cue the backside and run through the gap, so she is chasing that line too. That will either get that line as fast as the threadle, or faster (my guess is it is will end up faster :))
The wrap in this situation was indeed the slowest, mainly because of the way the course was built from the utnnel to the wrap side of the backside (there was not a straight line). But if you do see a straight line to a wrap, it is worth considering because of how fast she can get to it and how well she can wrap.
>>Also it seemed to me that the Backside into a FC was faster so I compared that to a threadle.
I thought this was really interesting! And of course I had to obsess on why the FC was faster than the BC because he had to collect more on the FC than the BC but had a similar landing spot on both. And his time from the 2nd to last jump to the last jump was pretty identical – turns out that the difference was his line from the tunnel to the backside. On the first rep with the BC, he had an extra lead change to get to the backside. On the 2nd rep, he was pretty straight (partially because you set the line better, partially because he saw the sequence already) – in isolation, that is what made the difference. So like with Emmie, go in a little closer to the tunnel so you can set the straightest line to the backside – then it is probably going to be preference of FC or BC there – they might be equal in speed or the BC might end up faster.
The threadle looked good – it was a little slower because he had to think about it all but he was SUPER to get it and you were a good momma to praise and reward 🙂
Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I think we are going to be seeing more of these questions from our young dogs as they start trialing, mainly because the last 18 months have been so limiting: my current thinking is that due to Covid, we were unable to expose the youngsters to the trial environment like we did with our older dogs, so now they are pretty unprepared for it (emotionally). So while they probably have better handling and obstacle skills than our other dogs did at this age, they do not have the understanding of how to deal with the environment or produce behavior in that level of arousal/distraction or handle being around all of the dogs or people.>>I would say this is probably my #1 thing I need to work on with her but really haven’t had much of an opportunity because I haven’t trialed.
Correct! Same here 🙂 I think most of us are in the same boat. But, we can teach all of the games and procedures away from the trials and then bring them into the trial environment. My youngsters have all worked the foundation engagement games to deal with the environment at home, and then brought those games in trial environments (disc and flyball environments first) and hopefully into agility environments in September.
>>At home, she’s all business.
Yes, it is an easier environment so she is better able to focus on the trained agility behaviors.
>>I wanted to get a plan for her, for that few seconds in between going in the ring, taking off the leash, and setting up on the startline.
The plan needs to be more of an ‘all of the above’ plan 🙂 Starting with the reinforcement procedures, like helping her understand how to run courses with the reward behind her and not on you (tugging on the leash is a good one) – the pattern games to acclimate to the environment especially when other dogs are looking at her, instant focus so she gets on task rather than looks around, the volume dial games – all of that comes together to help her be able to run courses with ideal focus and engagement.
>>I was thinking of working on playing with her leash for set up and keeping it on until she sets fully. Then quickly run off the startline.
Take a look at the games I posted on Monday, that will help you get a better idea of what she needs and how to help her. Without the engagement/acclimation games in place, she might not be able to set up fully.
>> I can’t remember exactly but I’m fairly certain I’m telling her her set up words for the startline and she’s ignoring them.
In those situations, the dogs are generally unable to respond to the cue in the face of the arousal/distraction in the environment – it is the same as the dogs that cannot respond to a sit cue while we are doing jumping jacks LOL!
>>I’m hoping it will just be a learning curve as she learns to understand the game more but I really hate it.
Yes, a total learning curve – but one we can help with. The transition to trials games are the key: now that she is trialing, I would work systematically through all of them as those games are the quickest route to getting her to ignore the distractions.
>>. I try to really pay attention by giving her a lot of space around other dogs but that’s not always easy at trials. I also tend to get nervous at trials so I’ve always warmed up my dogs and then put them back in the crate right before we are ready to run so I can obsess without the nerves going down the leash. This also helps to minimize all the dogs in her space. She was doing fairly well outside the ring for the most part because I can just feed her treats. >>
While none of this is bad… it generally avoids the environment and doesn’t help her learn to handle those situations.
>>But when we go in and are setting up on the startline she loses her focus to the dogs outside the ring.
When something becomes unavoidable (like the last run where the dog was looking at her), and add in a little depletion from the other runs – she doesn’t know how to choose trained behavior (agility) over natural behavior (investigating distractions).
>>For most areas that we will trial in, this isn’t really going to be a big problem because there are gates/walls that she can’t see through
True, but it still avoids things so when presented with something unavoidable (like the judge wanting the next dog on the startline while you are at obstacle 16 and she has to pass the other dog on the way out of the run, or a situation where her visual is not blocked), she might not know how to produce the trained behavior.
My philosophy is to work through the arousal or questions from the dog, rather than avoid 🙂 It might mean a little less course running at the start and a LOT more reinforcing – that is why my 3 youngsters have all started in non-agility sports even though my ‘big goals’ are all in agility. Non-agility sports allow them to see crazier environments but with more reinforcement readily available (I personally think every agility dog should start in flyball, because if the dog can ignore flyball distraction then agility will be the easier thing EVER haha!!) And then when they start agility trialing, all runs will be at lower height and as NFC/FEO runs because it is all about environment, environment, environment (internal and external). So yes – I won’t be running the big courses with them probably til late fall/early winter, but when I ask for the real agility behaviors, they will easily be able to produce them and then long term results will be great. I am seeing that with my 3 year old dog who had almost 18 months away from the competition environment due to covid and surgery: her skills of dealing with environment are firmly in place and holy crap, she is impressive now that she is getting back into competing.
So, the next step is to look at the transition to trials games, teach them at home, and then work them around the wing in classes/trials (rather than crate her to avoid or feed cookies as you move about). You will see really fast results! And in the last games package on August 16, we take a planning approach to help the dogs transition into fully focused trial careers.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I woke up this morning thinking that the best way forward with all dogs, not just these pandemic puppers, is to make sure that their ability to modulate arousal is in place (along with our ability to help them). So, embracing the environmental/’emotional’ side of training becomes important in order to let us do the part we might consider more fun (running courses!). The dogs don’t consider the course running to be fun if they don’t understand how to be engaged with you in the environment. And after 18 months of weirdness due to Covid, I think we will be seeing that at all levels. There are dogs that will have titled up to a higher level in the ‘at home’ programs but will be wildly unprepared for real-life trials. I put a couple of extra titles on Voodoo because he is experienced, but I did not even attempt it with the baby dogs because they need to start in the baby dog levels: not because they don’t have skills, but because they are so new to the environment! We dog mommas need a plan to make sure we ease the dogs into trialing with joy and reinforcement!>>He had a half hearted catch for the first trick, but then got more engaged.
Yes – environment at work! A pretty classic example of why we need to give dogs a mental warm up 🙂 And doing more of the tricks with the high value reinforcement, paired with your recent emphasis on acclimation/engagement in the Mulberry Zone without pressure plus perhaps a bit of a ‘high’ from UpDog – boom! More engagement. Then you got 2 really great runs and click/treat for you for stopping while the going was good! Your handling was smooth and connected because you didn’t have to think about engagement – you only had to think about handling (I personally find it difficult to be both a trainer/engagement ringleader AND a handler on course! Too much multi-tasking!). When you revisit it, I am confident you’ll easily get the BC before the last tunnel and after it as well. He looked great!
>>I thought he could have lined up faster and he did flick his gaze off to the side as I was leading out, but this was way better than he’s been in weeks.
Maybe he could have lined up faster? Or not. Each dog will have quirks in their line up routine – this latency might have been perfect for him, maybe he was in the sweet spot? Or maybe you will find he gets faster (or slower) depending on the environment. And I don’t mind if dogs look away from me on the start line, they might need to flick their eyes at something in the environment to help settle in to the sweet spot to work. But you did a great job of letting him do what he needed to do and not saying “that wasn’t fast enough” and not saying “hey look at me” – letting him respond at his pace will go a LONG way towards the goal of great engagement at trials, in any environment! Another click/treat for you.
It is amazing what happens when we can modulate arousal – acclimation to the environment, distractions reduce, trained behaviors re-emerge and emerge with speed! Then you will see your focus shift from engagement to handling – he will let us know when that shift should happen, I think this is what you were seeing here for sure. Great job!!!!! Too bad you and the MN don’t live closer, we could all do young dog field trips!
Tracy
Good morning!
I am glad you are having fun with these! Part of me is really glad we are training them and is thrilled the dogs are reading them so well… the other part of me is annoyed that they are now seemingly *everywhere* on trial courses because they are the hot trend like mall hair in the 80s LOL! At least we will be prepared when we see them on course 🙂
On the video – look at him go! Good boy! He is finding them really independently, in terms of getting to the correct side and setting up his own jumping too. Happy dance!
Repeating the cue really helps – an dI was glad when you started it in more of your normal voice rather than the higher pitch you used earlier on – when you are running full steam, it will be harder to get the higher pitch so he nees to recognize it in more of a normal pitch too.
He was really good with the front side balance reps – only one oopsie but I think it was just an error after several front side reps.For now, keep adding motion. You’ll start to see opportunities to use this move on the sequences and courses that are posted here, so you can show it to him in the context of the bigger runs.
Great job!!!
TracyGood morning!
>>Around the ring I have been using a mat for veloz – after he made it plain that he needed it- he tried to pull me over to get to somebodies jacket on ground.
That is really interesting that he did that, and good to know! It sounds like he was attempting to modulate his own arousal.
>> But as well as that we do cuddles at home where he puts his head into me and I stroke his body. At shows or when he is getting too heated at training I have taken to kneeling on ground so he can do the same thing –
Great!
>> I have also done it a couple of times on start line when he has gone over the top doesnt put me in a good position… It does seem to relax him but as soon as I move he goes high again. doesnt always work at moment but does settle him even if only for that moment.so his calm is only surface should I keep on working on this to extend the calm or should I introduce something else>>
It is good that he is even able to let a heartbeat of calm surface in that situation! It is big progress. So, yes – keep working to extend the calm, but also, add in other things: the pattern game and the instant focus game are useful, as well as various tricks/behaviors (check out the new game posted on Monday). For example, after the calm moment, you will want to be able to ask him for a trick or behavior so he can then retain that calmer level of arousal as you stand up and get ready for the run. Which behavior, exactly, will depends on which cues he can respond to and which behaviors help keep him centered. For example, one dog might find barking on cue to be best – and another dog might find a ‘give paw’ cue to be most helpful. The training involves a lot of experimenting first in training situations then in trial situations to see what works best in different environments. There is no single answer – I think of it as a giant toolbox of things we can pull from to help the dog. Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Good morning!
>> I know dogs are “sided” just like people, and sometimes I wonder if our sidedness affects our dogs’….Chicken and egg discussion. ;).>>
Possibly – I think my side preference affects understanding of certain skills (such as the dog might weaev better on my left than on my right, because i prefer the dog on my left side) but I have not seen that same thing carry over into their natural side preferences – several of my dogs are very strong lefties despite me tending towards having them on my left, which should produce a right turn (towards me). It is interesting to track!
About the videos – this is so fun to see! It is like having a coversation with the dog and getting really specific, direct feedback. She was very clear: the fastest lines are when she has the info soonest, and when she can accelerate out on a fast line as you run.
So what I mean by that is:
on the 3 front cross (left wrap) reps, the earlier cue back to the tunnel (middle rep) was the winner. That was because as she came around the wing, you were clear on the line, clearly conencted, givin gthe tunnel cue.So even though your collection cue before the jump was stronger on rep 3, your rotation and exit info was later. The rep 2 collection info was not as strong so she didn’t collect as much: but you cut the corner to get to the wing and then moved away from it a touch sooner: so she saw where she was going next sooner and was faster than on the tighter turns.
On the right wrap reps – yes, it was cool to see the spin being the fastest! I think it was in keeping with her theme of “what’s next?”. On the posrt turn rep, the shoulder rotation of the post turn to exit the wrap is just not as quick as the spin is to show the next line – in that situation, for her, the spin shows it sooner and is the better option. Adding in her move of chasing your motion: with the spin, you are running away up the next line sooner and faster, so she kicks in a higher gear of speed.
My general philosophy is that we choose the handling based on which choice turns our feet to the next line sooner than any other – and in this case, it is the spin. Yay!
Seems like little details but you can see significant differences in course time over the full run.
Two other thing swe see here:
– classic big dog extension lines being faster: if you can get her in a relatively straight line to the next obstacle(s), she can extend her stride and be really fast (like on the right wrap here). If she has to make small turns, she can’t do that and will remain in moderate collection, which is slower (left wrap). This is different than little dogs – the smallest dogs here were all faster on the left wraps 🙂– Questions about the handling are going to be slower, even if you are on the faster line: when you were in the way for the blind on the first right wrap, and when she was not sure about the exit line on the 1st amd 3rd left wraps, those ere slower mainly due to the question she had – questions diminsh extension so we see it over and over: one little question eats a lot of time, relatively speaking. That is why we want to be o early and connected which our cues (which is also why we train so much commitment :))
>>Of course, now I want to learn how you did the overlay, that was cool.
I use iMovie to edit the videos. In iMovie, press the clip you want so it drops into the frame. Then, press the other clip you want to use in the overlay and then you’ll see the 3 dots (which is probably where you are doing the side by sides). I use the green-blue screen feature – then it will overlay the clip! I think you can also darken/lighten the clips. I have gone to wearing different color shirts so I can see which handler goes with which run LOL!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Do you feel this a movement that can be used for both without poisoning your serp mechanics? The threadle is on a word an obviously I understand I would need to practice both types.
Threadles are different than serps because of position, timing, verbals, etc. Threadles are a series of cues, not just one 🙂 So – using the same movement does not poison serps, the dogs know the difference.
>>Oh but if you confidently get them wrong in your rehearsal then you don’t know you’re wrong! This where the tattoos come in handy!
Then part of your rehearsal is going to have to be double checking your verbals LOL!
>>I can’t even explain how much I am enjoying your classes and how much we needed this- not just for skills but for the soul
I am so glad you are enjoying it! It has been a blast watching you and Fever!!
T
Hi! Hope your Achilles is feeling better!!! And I love your shirt!
She did really well turning to her right and you had a lot of motion on that side too. You were basically running, and that looked great. I do see what you are saying about the left turn not being as comfy for her and I think you also give smoother hand cues with your right arm than with your left arm – you are both more comfy on the right side 🙂
And adding the tunnel is great – note how on the last rep she *almost* went to the wrong side then adjusted at the last minute: SUPER!!! That shows that a strong understanding is really percolating.You can keep going with the tunnel before it, she does indeed like “more action” on these 🙂 And as she exits, add more motion (use a more obvious hand cue for the left turns) and also mix in some ‘regular’ wing wraps where she stays out on the other side for a good ol’ front cross back to the tunnel 🙂 or do a 360 degree backside/ reverse wrap. That will keep her on her toes and not assuming it is always the threadle wrap.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi –
>>It’s interesting adding verbals because what comes out when I run isn’t always what I plan during the lower arousal, training situation. I’ve been wondering about the long come because of my lack of consistency.take a look at Games Package 4 – you will see how to get your verbals to come out properly in the fast runs and not just in the training moments 😉
T
Hi! I agree, she is honest 🙂 And yes – for countermotion, the ideal is that both handler and dog are on the takeoff side at the same time, but heading in different directions 🙂
T
Hi!
>>’m hoping to trial this coming weekend (Covid depending). I am thinking of running her as FOE to see how we do. Basically take her toy in, run the course as normal but with the option to reward. Thoughts?
Sure! I think it is always good to run FEO!
Tracy
Hi!
>>thank you for this! I really appreciate the technical skills he has at his age but what’s most important for him and I is for him to be ALL in. Since he does struggle with environment, he’s a much better and confident worker when he’s excitable. Plus it’s really fun when he’s flying.>>
Yes – “All In” is the non-scientific phrase for all of the science of optimal states of arousal and you’ll find that the environment struggles also go away when he is all in 🙂 But it is our job to get him to that all in place 🙂
>>I also really appreciate ALL of your toy/reinforcer feedback because it’s not always the easiest for me to pick up. I do get when it is not as reinforcing as it could be but don’t quite know enough to make the fix. Toy play guru Tracy! <3>>
It is easier to see on video than it is to see in the moment. I love to obsess on clean mechanics because it makes all the difference during training 🙂
>>One question I have with speed lines and less technical stuff. I know for these sequences we had missed obstacles and I kept stopping- how do you decided to stop when they have missed a jump in a flowy and relatively straight sequence versus going back to get a jump or just stopping and rewarding.
I think it depends on the dog. Fever doesn’t like the stopping because it seems his favorite rewards are motion-based: chasing you for the toy, or you throwing the friz. So keep going, deliver one of the high value rewards then go back and figure out what happened before you run him again. Some dogs like stopping and will let us stop a zillion times. Border Collies tend to NOT be like that haha And if I get an error on course, I will try to figure out if it was a handling error or a training error and adjust accordingly before the next rep. And it I choose handling error and *still* get the error after an adjustment? I will break it down, show it to the dog, and reward.
>>I think sometimes I get disconnected running knowing that there has been a mistake and thinking too long about fixing/stopping/rewarding leading to further disconnect.
That is something we work on specifically in Games Package 5 🙂
>> I still have so much to learn with running him because it’s still quite the challenge for me. I don’t trust him to take all of the things so then my words get late because I’m watching everything. Or I mix up my freaking rights and lefts. I swear I’m getting my hands tattooed with L and R as well as check and dig>>
Mixing up verbals is a rehearsal issue – you’ll fix that by rehearsing the handling properly, before you run him (most folks don’t rehearse handling properly before runs). We work that in Games Package 4 🙂 And also rehearsing the handling so you can handle without active thought – and then see what happens, rather than try to make decisions in the moment 🙂
T
Hi!
Sometimes we come across a sequence where we need a certain skill a bunch of times – and the sequence goes totally wrong if we don’t have that skill. I think think was that type of sequence for you 🙂 But it was only 2 details to smooth out here (one handling thing, one training thing) and that is all, then you’ll nail it:
– from the handling side: connection on the exits of crosses and tunnels
– from the training side: default commitment to the jump after a backside or serp so he doesn’t run past it.For the connection: when you exited the turn at :02, after the tunnel at :33 and :41 – you had a heartbeat of connection but then you looked forward before he could commit to getting on the new line, so he read it as a blind cross cue and went back to the other side of you (you can reward all of that, he was correct when that happened). So to smooth it out: get the big eye contact and then maintain it til you are really sure he is on the new line. Maintaining the eye contact will also be the commitment cue for the next obstacle: I think that the breaks in connection were happening because you were trying to point forward to the next line, which broke connection. So as long as you maintain connection, you don’t have to point forward – just keep moving and he will find the line. For example at :47, you worked the connection extra hard and he got it. YAY!!
And you are pretty darned connected on the other parts of the sequence (like the backside sends and regular lines) so you only need to amp up the connection in the other sections.Now about the backside training: You did a good job handling him to the backsides. When he was there, the dog training needs to takeover so you can leave. What I mean by that is when he arrives at the backside, he should automatically jump the jump 🙂 When you were moving fast (which was correct) at :08, :27 and 1:20, and also at :49, he didn’t take the jump. So that is something to isolate in training – he got the jump when you were not really moving fast at :18, :22 and when you rotated at 1:00 and 1:27, so we need to set him up to get it when you are moving:
send him around to the backside and start briskly walking past it -an as soon as he rounds the entry wing, toss the toy behind you to the landing area as you keep moving. The timing of the reward is important: you toss it as soon as he comes to the backside (because that is what we are rewarding) but before he takes the jump: we are developing the default of taking the jump by building a ton of value for it. Don’t wait to see if he will take it or not – throw it as he comes around the entry wing.
Repeat the process, adding more and more speed – and then when you can run, we go back to the beginning and delay the timing of the reward til when you see him choose the jump. This will take a whole bunch of sessions, but he will get it and it will make sequences like this muuuuuuch easier 🙂 You can see how well he does when he understands, like at 1:13 – that was great!!! Plus he did really well on all of the other lines – the go lines (he did pull off the last jump because of the toy throw) and 180s and tunnel commitment all looked great!!!And also be sure to reward a LOT – if something is going wrong, ask for a trick or keep going and reward something else. I think he started to get frustrated with the mistakes and not getting reinforcement – he was sniffing a little then at :56 he was frustrated and started jumping for the toy.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, they are really hard 🙂 But you did a great job and so did Ruby!First sequence: – great job getting to the serp side of the jump after the tunnel, that was some serious hustle! And she was great coming directly to it, so many dogs would have run right past it. She nailed it! On the first rep, after the serp jump, you closed your shoulders forward and she went right past the last jump (correctly) at :06. You were better at :13 and :22, but I think your best shoulder position (open serpentine upper body) was at :31 – that was really nice!
2nd sequence was also really nice – the lateral send from the stay for jump 1 was the only hard part. Look at what you did at 1:05 – you led out, connected, indicated – then released. That was the smoothest clearest lead out and she got it! More of that will help her get more consistent with it. When you connected and released at the same time, she didn’t have a moment to look at the first jump so she ran past it.
On the serp lines: all of her jump commitment looked great! You can try to get further up the lines (it is hard to do on this sequence :)) or spread the distance out between the jumps to add more challenge.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! These are going really well – her jump commitment looks strong, she is using her body really well, and she does not appear to want to run past the serp jumps: she drives right in to you. YAY!!! The little details /ideas are all about handler mechanics:
Seq 1:
The first several runs moving away from the tunnel all looked good!! You can open your shoulders more to show serp position and ‘face’ the jump and be a little closer to the jumps to help set the lines (staying ideally within an arm’s length of the jumps).Seq 2, going back towards the tunnel – the challenging parts here were the lateral send for jump 1 (or the lead out) and the serp cue itself on the 2nd jump.
For the send to 1: when you did it as a connected send, she was great! So the only hard part is that lead out. To help her, you can set her up as much facing it as you can, and then turn a little towards her, step towards the takeoff spot then release: and reward by throwing a reward to the landing spot. I think with more experience, these lead outs will get easier.
For the serp cue itself on jump 2, I think you had a little too much arm in-and-out happening – it worked at :26 but when you tried to send her back out at :57, it ended up turning your shoulders to the tunnel exit and that is where she went (good girl). Compare it to 1:02, you did less in-and-out with the arm and more maintaining the open shoulder position (upper body facing the jump, great connection when she landed from 2) and she got it beautifully! So definitely keep your shoulders facing the jump, no need to swing the arm.
Also, being nice and close to the serp line at 1:14 and 1:19 helped too!Great job here!
Tracy
