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Good morning!
Good morning!
>>It has seemed to me that that is “cheating”.
I don’t consider it cheating 🙂 I think of it as more informational (is that a word? LOL!) This is especially true now that threadles are showing up in different configurations.
>> As my dog approaches the first jump where an “S” shaped effort is required, I give my threadle cue. That is supposed to communicate the whole thing:
– Jump in collection
– Come through the gap
– Take the threadle jump.>>In theory, yes… but the issues that I have seen have to do with the “jump in collection” part of it. The threadle cue alone does not indicate the most important part of that: How much collection, exactly? Back when threadles were only in the 180 configuration and when I could be ahead and even rotate my feet, a threadle cue alone kinda worked. Not great, but I got through. Then my Voodoo started asking the very important question of “how much collection on the first jump, hooooman??” and he got really frustrated when I didn’t provide the info and when I tried to keep moving through the threadle without foot rotation. Problem solved with the turn cue on the jump before the threadle.
So it comes down to how you define what the threadle verbal means. For my dogs, I have defined it to mean “take the inside (backside) of the jump, between me and the jump” and it is my responsibility to also tell them how to turn to be able to see the jump I am indicating.
>>The wrap cue means we are going to take that jump and change directions 180 degrees. I will need to think about it.
Correct – and in the ‘flat’ 180 threadles, that is the behavior the dog is doing – coming back across the plane of the wing to be able to face the threadle side of the next jump – it requires the same collection on the first jump as a wrap. And when I want the threadle, I begin that cue when I see the collection. If I don’t want the threadle, I give the dog a different cue. And if the threadle line does not come in from a traditional line, I don’t use the wrap verbal (because that first jump is a not wrap :))
>>I distinctly remember a recent discussion about a threadle in an AKC premier course. Someone asked how I was going to cue it. My response was something like: “I am going to lie to my dog and tell him to wrap the first jump, once he processes that, I will give my threadle cue.”
. >>Ha! If that is a lie, then my dogs want me to keep the lie going LOL!!! I don’t consider it mixed information – it is an indication of how much collection I want on jump 1, then the threadle cue indicates which side and which exit of jump 2. And if the line does not require a wrap or a ton of collection to get to the correct side, then I will use a cue that matches the collection I want.
>>Your threadle cue is not used to predict an “S” shaped jumping effort but an “other side of the jump”
Correct – S shaped is too general nowadays. My threadle cue does not name a line (because the line can be different each time in terms of collections needed), my threadle cue indicates which side of that jump to take and how to exit it.
>>I’ve probably already told you my instructor’s force front story. I asked her when she uses threadle handling and when she uses the forced front. She answered that, as soon as she teaches her dog the threadle, she stops using the forced front. Makes sense to me.>>
Yes! The threadle has turned out to be a much faster ‘move’. I use the forced fronts for dogs that need more impulsion up the line (because they are faster when we are turned away from them and the rotation will fling them a bit more LOL!) and for dogs that don’t understand the threadle. But for dogs with a lot of speed off the start line and understand threadles? The threadle will work better indeed.
>>I did get a kick out of the “automatic” threadle. He was in desperate need of a balance rep! Took a couple of tries to get him back to paying attention!>>
Ha! That is a common thing that I have seen too: once they get into threadle mode, they want to threadle ALL.THE.THINGS lol!!! And he did see a bit of a closed shoulder a la FFC on the release at :48. Your ‘seriously’ cracked me up though LOL! 1:15 was all on him threadling all the things 🙂 so you can balance more frequently in a session.
He was great on the forced fronts and had no trouble when you moved away to be closer to 3.
Same with the the threadles, easy for him. One thing to add to the threadles is to let him find his jump without you stepping to it or using an arm cue – hold threadle position until his head turns to look around the backside wing, then you can just leave for your next position or handling. This will make your running line even more efficient
For example at 1:55, you step towards jump #2 to indicate it but you don’t need to – the threadle indicates it – so you can move up the line sooner, as soon as he commits to the backside.The discrimination went well and I think it was a perfectly good challenge to show the utnnel first – he was pretty perfect after that first error even when you turned it into a sequence at the end. That first error speaks to state of arousal, perhaps – the tunnel as the first rep was sitmulating, so the 2nd rep was more true-to-life for how he might be feeling in a trial environment. So…. do the same thing in the next session, start with the tunnel then do the threadle on the 2nd rep 🙂 Be really demanding on that 2nd rep, though – repeat the cue and shake your hand to help him “see” it 🙂
The layering did go really well! The part that you worked on was more about the right turn and less about the layering skills. At :53, you gave him his right verbal and an outside at as he landed from the first jump and that really produced the nicest turn.
At 1:26 your verbal timing was great and you were in a more lateral position (also good!) but you didn’t use your outside arm until he landed – I think the arm as a ‘brake’ at the same timing as the verbals here would be the most effective, even if you are pretty far away from the right turn jump.
All the layering went really well, and he also did well responding to turn cues or Go cues on the tunnel exits! Yay!
To add more challenge, replace the tunnel with weaves here and in the backside-at-2 setup. And also replace the tunnel with a jump, which might turn out to be the most difficult!Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyYep, straight tunnels aka puppy blasters – they are all the rage in USDAA and UKI. Not quite as common in AKC, but they are starting to arrive on the scene there too! SUPER fun to have straight tunnels, provided we can handle before and after them 🙂
>>It’s interesting to watch how many good handlers don’t use a cue at the entrance to the tunnel then just ‘man’ their way through with speed at the end. I’m guessing as time goes on they’ll all learn the trick of the early cue, but right now it’s a great advantage to know to do it when they don’t.>>
I live by the timely cues – otherwise I get a big crash and burn when I am late late late LOL!
T
Wow, what a great run! I loved the cheering!!! Thanks for posting it!
The trends I see here are:
– backside on 2
– yes, threadle off the teeter
– and a BIG layering possibility from that threadle all the way to the dog walk and also 18! You were able to get in there nicely with Potter but I want to get the youngsters to understand layering, so we have it ready 🙂Tracy
Good morning!
Oh crud, that fenced area is your agility ring?? Oh no! We can adjust the setups to use the area you have available.The go go go looked like Spot was in his happy place, even from the highly angled entries. And he gets a gold start for that very first left – it was nice and tight even after all of those go go go reps!
For the wraps – the verbals were good but I think to truly get more wrap you will also need to show rotation on the tunnel entry, so let him see you decelerate and front cross or spin as he is approaching the tunnel (along with the verbals).
The cheese-throwing section went well – the first GO was not as good but I think he was trying to find the cheese, plus cheese is calmer than ball throws so his overall arousal was lower. Left/right looked good!
And you did the blinds correctly – send and hustle across the exit, His sends were super strong so that gave you plenty of time to do the blinds.
The FCs were well-timed, but ideally your running line would stay on the same side of the tunnel you started on and run back that direction – but in this case, that would have you running into the brush so it is fine that you moved across the face of the tunnel 🙂 I think in general you will find the blinds easier anyway, unless you are sending from a decelerated position or from a stationary position.Great job here! I think you have room to add a jump or wing to this, to build into the distance skills! And you can squish up the tunnel and start the discrimination work.
Have fun!
TracyHi!
She has the foundation for the forced fronts so I am not surprised that she picked it up so quickly. She did really well here! All of the forced front looked really strong. You held position a bit longer just to make sure she came to the correct side at first, but then at :16 you started turning sooner and she had no problems.The last rep was a threadle, she did well on that too! My only suggestion there is to have your lower body turned to the bar (feet facing the landing spot) before you release her, that way you won’t have to rotate and she will get an even tighter turn.
She had no trouble finding 3 on these (I am not surprised LOL!) So you can start to move the threadle and the forced front away from the #2 jump, seeing if you can move your position further up the line while also getting a great turn. And if that goes well? Go back to standing close to jump 2 and add in the tunnel discrimination. Wheeee!
And since the jump-tunnel discriminations are going well, you can move to the layering game from week 2.
Great job on these! She is moving through these really well!
TracyGood morning!
This went really well – she appeared to have no questions. The main goal is that the dogs can find the jump when asked for it, or the tunnel when asked for it rather than locking onto one or the other. It appears that she totally has it! Yay! So, on to the next games.
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
The go and turn cues on the tunnel (first video) looked really good, she drove ahead very nicely to the teeter and also turned really well when you asked for it.
I looked at the slip in slow motion and it looks like just a slip, probably because she was multi-tasking and didn’t quite get herself organized to take off for full height.On the discrimination video:
>> It was hard to know when to release her because she would look at me whenever I would start saying the obstacle name.
Some dogs don’t focus forward (my blue merle dog doesn’t really focus forward) so you can releae when they start to pull or you feel muscle tension – that generally indicates a decision. Then we hope for the best LOL!!
She did well here! I think she is really reading your foot placement: all of the correct responses had great foot placement from you and the errors had a foot that was pointing ever-so-slightly to the wrong obstacle (she is subtle! LOL!) and also try to delay the ball toss – I think she went back to the tunnel even when it totally looked like she was going to the jump at about :31, because the outside arm was throwing the toy which could have read as a ‘get out’ type of cue to the tunnel. So you have permission to be a little late with the toy throws 🙂
So for the next session or two, be really aware of your feet so that the verbals solidify and match the feet. Then, you can add more motion that will make the feet less perfect – to challenge her to process the verbals rather than require perfect feet 🙂Backsides at 2:
>>She took a curvy s-shaped path on the first rep and on the balance rep. On the first 2 reps, I also led out from different sides of jump #1 since I saw you do that on the demo. Do you think one way or the other might give Annie a hint at which side of #2 I want before I get there? >>The most important thing is to line her up in the stay on an angle at 1, so she is facing the backside at 2 and not the front side. On that first rep, based on her stay spot, I thought you were going to the other side of 2 (and that is where you led out to as well) – so she was facing the front side of 2 and that is why she asked the question about where to go on the release.
Skipping around a bit, looking at the forced fronts:
Her stay spot on the 2nd rep was a little better and she read the line better. She did have a question – and it was because you were moving. On the forced front cross, after the release, it is important to be completely stationary until the dog has reached the commitment plane. You were moving a bit, stepping back a little – and she was wondering if that meant take the front or come to the back. She came to the back when you stopped moving (and on the 1st rep too) . You were very stationary on the 4th rep and she seemed to have no questions about where to drive to. Yay!
On the last rep, you had her stay spot more in the center of the bar of #1, so she had a much straighter line. You were moving forward on that, which did draw her to the backside but it also took her longer to read the turn back to 2 (I am timing each rep so we know what works best for her :))On the 3rd rep – threadle – you can also move her stay spot over to the other side of the #1 jump. She is looking directly at the front of 2 here, so you’ll get a better line if you have her stay on the side of the jump where the 7 number is.
She definitely liked the threadle – it was the fastest rep 🙂 To get it even smoother, you can rotate your lower body so your feet are facing the bar more (toes pointing to the landing spot) and then it will be even faster and easier for you, Your feet were in a better position at :42 (I think she broke her stay on that one) but you were further from the wing, so it was not as fast as the previous threadle where you were closer to the wing.On the balance rep, she had a curvy line there because your left shoulder was very open like a threadle, and since she had just done some threadles and backsides, she was likely asking if that was what you wanted 🙂
It was a little hard to hear the verbal you were using – that might have bee because you were being quiet haha! You can add in your threadle verbal on these, she is doing really well so you can totally put the verbal in too.
>> Before I start leading out I usually whisper to her “it’s gonna be a push, ok”. Who knows whether this means anything to her, but I’ve had good luck with it so I wouldn’t dare stop doing it now, lol.
I always tell my dogs what it is, and I also tell student dogs what it about to happen. Does it help? I don’t know, but the dogs do well, I am more focused and it definitely doesn’t hurt, so I highly recommend continuing to do it 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Yes, that ‘turn away’ skill is getting really popular- both at the weave exit as you have here, but on jumps and also using it to set up big layers so you can be waaaaaay ahead on course. There is a lot the dog needs to understand here, particularly that he is allowed to turn away on a very limited cue from us humans.
The good news is that the specifics on how to train and handle it in various scenarios will be posted on Tuesday 🙂
So until then, you can play with having the dogs at your side and turn them away with a hand cue – I use both hands together, mainly emphasizing the outside arm to ‘grab’ attention then turn away. That is the first step towards getting this really well on course 🙂
Stay tuned for more!Tracy
Good morning!
He was a real superstar – never even looked at the tunnel. Yay! Your positioning was correct relative to the jumps, which totally helped him never look at the tunnel.
One little suggestion with the threadle: try to get your feet facing the bar more so then you can just step out of it rather than rotating towards the jump rather than turning towards the jump like you would with the FFC. The glory of the threadle is that he can leave you to take the jump without you needing to step towards it – you will eventually be able to just leave for the next position as soon as he commits to the jump.You can see it clearly at :28 – perfect upper body, so rotate your lower body so your feet are pointing more towards the a-frame and not towards the dog or tunnel.
You were pretty far away on that rep and on the following one on the other side… he was great!For some reason he took the front at :53 – it is possible that he was set up facing the front of 2 and saw you between the uprights, so took the front.
It looks like he came in at a better angle at 1:02 and I love how he turned to take the jump nice and tight around the wing without needing extra help! Good boy!!! Same on the last 2 reps on the other side he was very independent, which is what we want!His independence here bodes well for you being able to get waaaay up the line! Great job getting this going!
Tracy
Hi!
This is going well too – very challenging, but going well. As with the right side work, try not to be ahead of him – try to stick closer to the wing to start it so he exits the tunnel ahead of you.The GO started off well! The 2nd rep, with the jump cue, the volume and energy of the cue made it harder for him to discriminate. But on the 3rd rep, it sounded really different so he was able to get it really nicely. Having it sound different really helps him.
You can also spread the jumps out more, so he has more processing time – the go jump is very close so if he doesn’t process the left in time, he goes straight – especially if he just had a go rep with a ball throw, like at :44 – he was going straight for the ball throw 🙂 He was better on next rep – you also turned to help, which is good and can also be done at a distance. You can use physical cues too especially when you are far away.
The left cue at 1:03 was early (he is processing it as the tunnel exit) – so from what we can tell from these last 2 sessions, if he hears the left or right before he exits the tunnel, he applies it to the tunnel. So you can maintain the jump cue and then add the left or right after he exits. That will work nicely, especially when the jumps are 18-20 feet away.
On the last 2 reps, he had to discriminate – failed once, got it the next rep. That is part of the challenge 🙂 I think spreading the jumps out to competition distance will help.>>What do you suggest that we select next to practice: The tunnel-jump discrimnation section from Wk ! or the backside section in Week 2 or both?
I suggest doing the tunnel-jump discrims from week 1, as you’ll find those skills to be very useful for the week 2 games 🙂
Nice work here! Have fun!
TracyHi!
I totally agree about the dogs needing early info in order to process it – but thankfully our training technology has improved so the dogs don’t need 2-4 seconds anymore. The dogs only have a stride or two, which is about a half a second. Eek!!This was a good session to work out timing. You were too early for the first few reps, so he had questions:
First rep – the right on the tunnel exit was well-timed, but the right on the 2nd rep was early and too quiet – he heard jump just after exiting the wing, and right as he entered the tunnel. That is why he would think the right would apply to the tunnel exit.
3rd rep also too early, but you were up there so he read the body language.
4th rep – right as he entered and before he exited
5th rep at :29 – I liked this timing a lot! Also 6th rep and 7th rep (go go go)
also last 2 reps – that is the timing for each of those cue, that looked really good! He was able to respond really nicely.
Try not to have yourself as visible at the tunnel exit, try to be behind him more – you can do that by starting closer to the wing rather than sending him, then moving forward so he drives ahead of you to the tunnel.
Nice work here! Onwards to the next video 🙂
TracyGood morning!
He is in the same boat as some of his classmates – that tunnel is delicious!! And yes, you can make the reset cookies a habit by always using them, rather than just after an error: he does the thing, gets the reward, gets a cookie for the reset, then gets the thing again. And if he does the thing incorrectly, he still gets the reset cookie (as part of the habit).
To help increase the value of the jump:
So you can do an entire session or two of just working the jump and not doing any tunnel reps – the goal is that the jump increases in value and he learns that yes, you can do a thing on a jump near a tunnel and not actually take the tunnel LOL! We don’t need to balance it for now… that tunnel is very valuable and I don’t think we are risking him not wanting to take tunnels LOL!About which verbals to use for the jump – you can use the backside verbal (it was the line he was on which is why he was offering it so nicely) or you can line up to face the front and use a wrap verbal. And to add a jump verbal, you can say it then use a physical cue (stepping to the jump) but be far enough from the tunnel that it is obvious. And to teach him that jump means “jump the thing in moderate collection”, you can cue it and toss the reward halfway between a full on go and a 90 degree turn for that not-quite-extension, not-quite-collection general line 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there!
She did well here! I agree – the turns look great! Nice!!!!!
I see her questions about carrying on ahead of you, when you are using the verbal and some motion – she wants you to get in there and handle it, but we want her to go without you LOL!! So, to get better sending while you are not nearby (picture a dog walk smack dab in the middle, blocking your path), some ideas:
– pull wing and jump closer so it is easier to get to from the tunnel exit. It can be 6 feet away to start, then gradually go further and further away
– you can use a MM for the wraps (tuck it behind the wing) or for the go (set out straight) but leave it out there the whole time – so she goes to it when sent, and ignores it when you ask for the turns. Otherwise it becomes too much of a lure.Having the wing or jump in closer might make it easier to throw, so you can try it both ways and see what works best for her!
Great job here! Keep me posted on how she does!
Tracy
