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Hi! Thanks for the visuals! It is annoying that we can’t post photos here, I will ask the tech folks to see if the software has upgrades that will allow us to do it.
The threadle slices you posted are indeed the traditional threadle slices… and the threadles we are now starting to see are evolving. I htink of threadles as:
– when the dog is approaching an obstacle and has a choice of front versus back, we need to threadle to get the front.
– the threadle creates a ‘sandwich’ – you and the jump are the bread, the dog is the meat LOL! What I mean by that is the dog has to come in between handler and obstacle in order to take the obstacleI drew some threadle slice photos with narration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QRzOGIDBZAThe slice versus wrap exit will depend on the cues. The OMD term for flick is more of a backside threadle wrap, but close enough to make it all similar. Threadle slice is where the dog continues away from the previous obstacle. Threadle wrap (flick, depending on terminology) is where the dog turns back towards the previous obstacle, often with a wrap exit.
>>This is the situation with threadles that I see most often: the dog is moving into the “first” jump of the threadle at very high speed with the handler behind; it is very difficult to get him to collect enough to come through the gap.>>
This is so true!! The magic to threadles is not always the threadle itself… it is generally the turn on the previous obstacle. So on the threadle you posted in the picture video where the threadle is 4-5, the key is the turn on 4 as you mentioned. So for threadles, I now use a verbal collection cue to get the dog turned over the previous obstacle then I will cue the threadle. The turn cue applies to 4, and the threadle cue applies to 5 – if we don’t get a turn on 4, the threadle is sooooo much harder.
In this 4-5 scenario of the traditional threadle, I would give my wrap cue to get tons of collection on 4 – then as the dog is taking off for 4, switch to the threadle cue. For the less traditional threadles, the turn cue on the previous obstacle would depend on what line you needed the dog to run. In the videos for this week, we needed a soft turn out of the tunnel so I just called the dog’s name. That got the dog turned to the threadle line, making the threadle on the jump so much easier. Without that turn cue, they would be running hard directly to the front side (wrong side) of the jump.
Let me know if that makes sense! The evolution of threadles makes them harder to sniff out on course sometimes, so I try to look at what the dog sees when exiting the previous obstacle – does he have a choice of front or back?
Tracy
Hi! I agree, the threadle is a fun option to add, especially when we move it away from the jump – same great turns from the dogs, better position for us!
And yes, this is something to add for Promise later on in her training 🙂Tracy
Good morning!
Hi!
She was a good girl here! And yes, it was smart to move to the jump if the wing was boring for her. We want to keep it fast and fun!
This is looking really strong with plenty of variety of challenges in terms of where you started her and what you asked for – so now we look at how to build on it 🙂In the next session, you can move the wing to a more offset position or further back, so you can wrap the wing and move into the discrimination, showing more motion. And then you can angle the jump so the bar becomes parallel to the tunnel, making it more of a backside (with a threadle option too).
And that will have challenge and motion… if it goes well, you can step right into the Layering game added yesterday. That game incorporates a bit if discrimination work while also adding the layering concepts. She might be able to move through all of this in one session or a couple of sessions – the layering games might take longer (or not – she is doing well and moving through really quickly :))
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi Lori and Bobbie! We got the email and replied, but in case you check here first –
The easiest way to load videos is to put them up on YouTube and then copy the link into the Forum here. I am happy to work you through how to do it, it is easy once you get the swing of it.About the codes you are seeing… that might be the cell reception as there is no code here in the forum. If you can, send me a screenshot? Otherwise better cell reception should help make posting easier.
TracyHi!
For now, since we are raising value for the jump – just say jump. That way you can reward anything that is over the jump and anything that is not the tunnel LOL! Wrap, go, backside – it is all good. When I say jump to my dogs, it is a generic “go over the thing” moment 🙂 Eventually, when he is much more comfortable with this discrimination, you can add directionals to it and then maybe the around cue will transfer really easily from the cone to the jump!Hi!
Yay Buddy! Good boy!!! I am glad he is doing so well!>> If I released as I ran, maybe it would have worked better, but when I re-created this sequence today, I did it from running on the same side to rear crossing to standing still and releaseing him and he was fine with all the options.
That is good! Next session – get him wilder and see how it goes, or move the jumps closer together 🙂
>>>People watching at the trial who had a good view, said he was locked onto the far side of the tunnel when he was on the table and only glanced at me. It must have been the vibes of the trial and he just went off. Mookie is a good boy and it does surprise me when he goes off. I have to work harder to grab his head.>>
I agree, he is a good boy who wants to get it right with da momma. I know that people might say he was naughty because he looked at you then took the off course, but I see it differently:
He was locked onto the tunnel because that was the obvious line. You must have given a cue that got his attention, so he looked at you – but then whatever you were doing in that moment must have affirmed his decision to go to the tunnel, so off he went at high speed. Not naughty – a good good boy 🙂 So it is good to know the rear cross is a good option and also a spin might work!
Have fun 🙂
TracyHi! I am so glad he is feeling 100%! He certainly looked great here!
And it is very convenient that the tunnel was right there LOL!The 2 forced fronts to start looked good but I think the threadle was tighter!!
I also timed them – the threadle was faster on both sides of that #2 jump. You can probably turn sooner on the forced front crosses – right as he is arriving at the commitment plane – but I don’t think that would make the FFCs faster than the threadles. So it is definitely worthwhile to keep moving further and further back with the threadles to see if you can eventually be standing near jump 3 and still get the threadle at jump 2 : )Since he did so well with the tunnel sitting there already, you can move the jumps closer to the tunnel, so jump 2 is maybe 8 feet or so from the tunnel – eek! That is harder 🙂 When you add that challenge, put your handling position for the threadle or FFC back to being next to the jump, so we are not increasing the difficulty with 2 things at once.
Great job here!
TracyHi!
Good job to all the dogs here! We are getting into the small details to get it really perfect. 2 ideas for you for the GO lines:
One thought for all the dogs – start on a straight line for the go exits more often as they will get more physical cue to go straight. In a smaller area, you’ll probably need to scrunch up the tunnel to have more room, but they will see you driving forward before they enter and that will help the exit. And on the angled approaches, let them see you turn and move straight for a few steps, to support the verbal.One other thing especially for the girls who still want to check in at the tunnel exit: in the spirit of “we are reinforcing a LOT but still not getting the behavior we want”… it is possible that we need to change the timing of the reinforcement here. I was thinking about why they still check in after a really high rate of success on going straight, and I think it is because they can see the toy throw. It is going like this: they head check at the tunnel exit and peripherally see the toy throw… which reinforces the head check because, well, tracking moving things is reinforcing then they get the toy which is also reinforcing. So the head checks are getting rewarded which would explain why they are not going away. Dang it!
So -try this: keep saying go go go until you see them look at the jump and move towards it… then throw the toy (or maybe enlist hubby to throw?) You might need to move a bit to help at first, and you might need to place a toy out there sometimes (but not all the time).
The turns are going well! Nikko might have had a valid reason for the left turns – when you were throwing straight, you were facing the center of the bar a bit and that might had read as rear cross pressure – watcher move over ot the far side of the bar on the first rep. Then at :17, when she did turn left on the wrap, I didn’t see anything in that moment that cued it, unless she is used to seeing a slight pull before you rear cross her? So it might have been her guessing about where the toy throws would be, or even slight pressure from the previous reps.
Also, look at that rep in slow motion (I slowed it down to 25% on YouTube in order to have proper obsessing :)) She was turning to her right til inches before takeoff, then something caused her to change her mind at liftoff – could have been that you stopped moving, and that is accidentally built into rear crosses? Then freeze it at :18 when you turned and threw the reward – that is a complete rear cross line, so it is possible she saw that happening on the other reps and was just being a complete over-achiever 🙂 Smart dogs, requiring us to have to slow things down to 25% LOL!!! So it would be interesting to see if you decel, turn, front cross all before takeoff – would she still turn left?You were facing that rear cross diagonal with Sole too on the go throws and a little on the wrap at :47. You were a little rotated at 1:05 for Presto’s first go rep – and he almost turned into you, reading the rotation. Then look at 1:09, how he moves over to the rear cross side of the bar. At 1:19 you were also rotated for the go throw and at 1:32, you decelerated and rotated to throw, so he turned towards you a bit.
I am having a bit of an a-ha moment about why Nikko would consider rear crosses – she might be trained to be sensitive to that slight rotation pressure as a rear cross cue. Sole and Presto don’t really have rear cross cues that look like that so they are less likely to turn away in this scenario, but they both did feel some pressure based on their other responses.
So, how to fix? Easy! Throw the reward with your dog side arm. They were on your left here, so throwing with the left will keep you facing forward. It might result in crazy throws if your left is not your dominant arm, but the dogs will enjoy those haha! Throwing with the outside arm is causing rotation in your running line, which might be causing the questions you are seeing (especially from Nikko rear crossing and Presto turning towards you).
Mainly, the suggestions are about slight changes to reinforcement! Commitment is looking great so I think you are totally on the right track. 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Emmie had an easier time with this by the end – it is ok that she offered turning the other way on the wing a couple of times, I think she was trying to avoid the tempting tunnel 🙂 She can get a half cookie reward for that hahaha – it is a reward for effort and for realizing it was not the tunnel, and those rewards will keep her success rate high. The big exciting rewards can come for the double whammy of the wing AND the correct direction.For the next session, you can start with the wing wrap to wake up that value before getting her all excited about the tunnel, that might make the entire session smoother! And you can also take the same approach as with Kip: 2 or 3 sessions of ONLY the wing or jump, no tunnels – the tunnel is present but does not get cued – to raise the value of “do the thing near the tunnel but don’t take the tunnel”. She will have a faster learning curve here because she has more foundation with wing wraps, probably.
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracySorry! I am using 2 devices and trying to stand up rather than sit on my butt all day… well, clearly I was not paying enough attention haha! Anyhow, here are some thoughts about Kippy 🙂
I am glad we are tackling this, especially if it has been a trouble spot in the past. I did notice that he was reading the exact angle of all toes on your foot LOL!!! I think the tunnel is a giant visual and a giant draw for him, so an idea: only do the wing or jump for a couple of sessions – no balance. All reps are some form of the wing or jump (wrap, front, back) and the tunnel is there, like a neutral thing that is just sitting there but never gets used. I think this will help him understand that we can do a thing near a tunnel that is not a tunnel 🙂 His generation was NOT taught this early on, unfortunately, so we are kind of in catch up mode (sorry, Kippy & Voodoo generation!).
And if the tunnel being neutral by close by is too much, you can move the wing or jump further away. I mention the jump because the other thing to try is NOT using the wing, but instead using a jump. The wing is theoretically the better starting point because we assume that the value for the wing is super high, because that is how they were trained early on… but that might not be the case for him. The value of the jump might be higher than the wing, plus the jump is a bigger visual as compared to the tunnel – so it might be better to start this with a jump and not with the wing. That way you won’t have to be perfect in the handling and the verbal cues will get even stronger.
When you do add the motion into this, we will definitely look at what handling is needed (and check out the layering game I added today, there is a discrimination element there too and it can be done with handling). We will definitely look at the handling because you’ll be using these skills at the Open! Yay!He was really starting to get it by the end of the session, so I think you are on the right track here.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is going well – a few suggestions to hopefully get it perfect!
Go looked good on all the go reps!
For that very first left with the jumps – the left verbal was early, but he had just gotten paid for he GoGoGo, so he didn’t turn. Then he got it – but then with the early left (before he entered the tunnel), he turned left on the tunnel exit especially because you had turned
Using only the left verbal in this scenario would require perfect timing, and that is too hard to do consistently. So instead of left left left for all of it, we can change the timing/rhythm of the verbals to get it more consistent and then easier to understand (and not requiring of perfect timing :))
So maybe try this for this type of scenario:
Go go go, early and often, that is working like a charm : )
When you want the jump then the left turn: tell him to jump before the tunnel and as he is in it, then add the left after he exits.
When you want the left turn on the tunnel exit, tell him left before he enters.And you can change the tone of the left versus the go: the GO should be big and loud. The jump and left cues can be softer in volume and a little longer: lefffft. It will sound different enough that he can process it.
You can also spread things out a bit to make it closer to competition distance, so he has more time to process which way to go over the jumps when there is a turn, and adds challenge to the go line – they look a little close together.
Nice work here! He is going to be well-prepared for when you see the dog walk in the middle of the course. Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He is getting the idea with the distance games! Super!
for the tunnel brake on the 2nd rep try it further away like from the wing – same exact physical and verbal cues, same timing – just not from ahead of him so he can still make the same turn with you behind himThe left verbal is coming along nicely on the tunnel – he got it even though you were facing forward (that pre-tunnel timing worked well). The right on the tunnel exit was even better!
Jump right was great on that first rep! Jump – left was good at :52- the left was late. You said jump nice and early but there were a couple of heartbeats before the left, which is why he didn’t jump in extension but also was not quick to turn left. The rhythm of it was “jump…..left!” And I think it will be more timely if you did it more like “jumpleft”. That can give him the info sooner to get the better turn, especially since I think he is slightly better at turning right than turning left.
I liked the rhythm of it a lot better at 1:01 (jumpleft) but you also swung the toy thrower back over your shoulder as if to throw, and that took his mind entirely off the agility LOL! At 1:09, he did commit but he was all about trying to follow the ball throw at that point – you were ever-so-slightly facing the right turn line, so he offered that.
Then the jump right at 1:20 had a little too much go on it (sounds like you repeated go, and go can be softer there) and all, he has tremendous ball feelings LOL! The other option is to just use the jump jump jump verbal in those scenarios rather than go – jump is also a bit of a forward cue and can help get the left or right elements more timely. Then he got a bit into trying to offer various things to get the ball to be thrown (but yes, the go on worked great at the end because… ball feelings LOL!)So overall there is a lot of great stuff! But maybe switch to the ball in your hand and don’t move to throw it until he has gotten things correctly. Yes, the ball throw will be late but it is not a precision behavior, so a it of late rewarding is fine to help get more focus forward. I know it sounds counterintuitive to reward late in order to get more focus forward, but I think the visual of the chuckit thing moving was hurting the focus forward more than it was helping (yes, we can work through him watching the thrower move, but we can also change type and timing of reward so we can work on other things).
Since you have access to the dog walk… you can wheel it over the tunnel so it is perpendicular to the tunnel then do these little sequences with the dog walk in your way, like it will be on course in this scenario. We won’t be posting official games for that because the course only required 3 jumps and a tunnel but since you have access to the dog walk – feel free to add to the fun 🙂 When you do add the dog walk, there will be handling support and that is fine, because you will still be 20, 30, 40 feet away.
He did really well with the discriminations!!! He started off with a lot of questions but then I was really happy to see him get better and better, finishing with a high rate of success! Yay! You did have some handling help going, but that is fine – there is always going to be some handling help, and the handling help here is pretty minimal because a lot of the motion looked similar.
I think he did better with the jump there versus just the wing, so definitely keep the jump. He seems best at the front side of the jump versus tunnel discrim, and the backside is the hardest one – there were a few reps where he was almost in the tunnel before he processed the backside cue and went to the jump. Whew! So for the next session, you can ‘warm up’ the skill by having the jump and tunnel further apart, then after a couple of successes, move them together. He seemed to have no trouble when you built it to the mini sequences, in fact I think it made more sense to him and he was more successful 🙂The other thing to build on the jump-tunnel discrimination is to look at the layering game that was posted today. Theoretically it is about layering… but you will also see a tremendous amount of jump-tunnel discrimination particularly in the balance moments.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This little Promise pup definitely has big opinions, I love it!!
Looking at these videos – on the first one, she gets really mad when you are not connected enough, She is not really having any trouble with the discrimination part of it, she seems to easily know when it is a wing and when it is a tunnel (we are seeing that all of our MaxPup baby dogs are having zero problems with this, yay!! – but when you are not connected properly, she does not know which side of you to be on and then she gets mad. Add in that your feet were not moving much on the wing wraps, your feet were stationary – so she had lots of opinions to offer.By not connecting properly, what I mean is that your were using more of an arm cue to get her attention on the new side and then try to send her, but dogs don’t really read arms all that well (especially young dogs).
You can see this on the first rep, at :36, 1:06, 1:30.
Dogs (especially youngsters) read eye contact – so as she is coming around the first wing, keep your arm back and make eye contact with her – try not to use your arms much at all, for now. Then as she gets to the correct side, you can step forward to the wing and give a little arm swoosh.
When you had motion and connection to the tunnel? No problem!
And because this is kind of hard with youngsters, if you mess it up – give her a reset cookie then start over. That will help reduce her rage LOL!!!!
With Breeze, you had more motion (watch your dog-side foot stepping to the wing as he was coming to the correct side)and more connection (watch how your arm was back and you made some eye contact) – plus he is far more experienced, so he was perfect 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know if the connection idea for Promise makes sense!
TracyGood morning!
Thank you for your update – fun stuff!!!>> WOW, I went to an AKC trial this weekend and the courses were really tight for my big strided Mookie.
Yes, that is something I have seen too – tight spacing in AKC (and other places too of course :)) It is hard for the big striding dogs for sure!
>>Tunnel discriminations were every where.
Yes 🙂 AKC already had a lot of those as part of the course design elements, but now they are getting into the tunnel-jump discrims with us handlers not being as close to the dog, which makes it much harder 🙂
>>We did well the first day, getting our very first premiere jumpers leg on an extremely technical course and then we knocked 2 bars in the regular JWW tight course.
Congrats! Good runs!!!
The second day Mookie locked into wrong course tunnels blowing past me. He has never done this before. He ran a muck. He has been such a good boy but thought I wanted these tunnels ??? This was new for him not follow me.
We need to work on this so your tunnel jump discrimination work is so timely for us.>>My guess is that with the tighter spacing, the info had to come sooner – he was not ignoring you, you were just late LOL!!! So for tight spacing, you might have to start giving the turn info while he is over the jump before the turn or even 2 jumps before it!
>>1) We did have fun with the skill sets this week. Independent tunnels went well for both dogs. Mookie is fast and too independent. Buddy my thinker is slower but is realible >>
Totally now take that into the tunnel-jump discrims – plus the new games for this week will help top!
>>2) Both dogs did well with the gos and turning right or left on jumps out of a tunnel for your set ups.
Yay! Also useful for tight spacing.
>>3) For the non traditional Discrims with the tunnel front of jump both dogs took several reps to do the tunnel or jump with just verbals. Once motion was added they were fine.
Now you can add more motion into it – and also look at the layering game I added this week. Yes, it is about layering… but there is a heavy tunnel-jump discrimination element that I think you and Mookie will find helpful 🙂
>>The crazy thing Mookie did at the trial was when there was a table then 2 jumps leading to the mouth of a tunnel and we had to turn off to another jump just before the mouth of a tunnel. When I released Mookie from the table he took of like a heat seeking missle to the far end of the tunnel I thought was not even in play. I was too shocked but and went on but I should have used the fix and go which I will now be more conscious of to use. Mookie has never done this before. But, now I know to watch out for it.
We really need to practice turns at the mouths of tunnels. I will be aware of his naughtiness for my next trial and am glad I have time now to train for this. >>My guess is that he was not naughty… you were probably late with the cues, or you were saying the verbal but still running forward so the motion overrode the verbal cue. He is a good boy, so I don’t think he was ignoring the cues, I think he just needs to learn more about discriminations and also you can still use physical cues even when you are not ahead of him.
>>What stronger cues can I use to get him to turn away from a tunnel entrance in front of him. He was too far ahead of me to clap and he chose not to hear my verbal ??
My best guess is that you were running forward and even if you used the verbal, your body cue was probably sending him into the off course tunnel. So, you can lead out more so you can show him deceleration and also turn. You can also do a spin for now, and then as he gets better at verbals overriding motion, you’ll be able to fade the spin out. So definitely as you plan your handling, you can add in physical cues with the verbals, even if your are not ahead. And on tight spacing, you can do it really early and see what he does!
Let me know what you think! Have fun 🙂
Tracy
