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Hi!
A lot of these procedures are about dog training, true… but also they are about learning what to do when we need to build on these behaviors. And I think he did really well with the ‘turn back’ element of the dog training – the hardships were in the planning stages.
>>Unfortunately he strongly desired to kill it and I lost him shortly into the session. I should have had cheese to trade. I didn’t.
So that brings up an important planning thing: never go into a session with only one possible reinforcement, unless you are willing to be $1000 that you will only need that one reinforcement.
>>He selected this broken and decrepit frisbee for this session and it’s killing my hands. But heyyyy look at that frisbee tug.
So when he selectd this frisbee, the next question to ask yourself in planning in: how am I going to get it back? Answer… cheese 🙂
Also, part of planning should be the ‘loop’ or the reset back to the next rep – how are you going to get him back? This is where cheese would be a good answer too.
And also it is high value but if part of the plan was tugging, you would not be as effective if the fris was ripping your flesh. So you can take it out of the selection pile, and if selects the toy: liimt it to toys that will work for the session.
So this qualifies as a really good session on two fronts:
first, he got to produce correct responses to the turn back cue. Win!
second, you learned a planning lesson that you will carry over into your next session. Double win!Before you next session, plan for the behavior you want to train, yes – but also plan the befre and after so you can get the loop going for a very efficient session.
>> He put his front paws on me to wait for food, which he never does. Super cute.
Awww good boy!!! I love this type of spill over!!!
Nice work!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
OMG you are BUSY! Wow! And thank you for the kind words 🙂 I am so glad you are joining us on this puppy adventure and if anything doesn’t make sense, please ask for more clarification 🙂 It sounds like you and Tali are off to a great start!!!!!!!Tracy
Hi! He is a fabulous goat! He looks super happy to get on any of the things. And I love your creativity LOL!! Make sure you switch sides in your shaping more frequently so he learns to approach things on either side of you (you probably do this but were adjusting to limited space here).
He did really well turning around on the stable thing and also on the wobble board.Since this is going so well… next step would be to incorporate a lot more toy play before and during the sessions, and even do entire sessions just for the toy 🙂 This is incredibly useful before it teaches the pups early on how to be aroused and stimulated, but still use their bodies wisely. I am sure you have seen dogs that get super aroused and crash through things! So incorporating tugging before and during these shaping and goating sessions will help Leo learn to control his body and brain even when he is REALLY excited about what is happening 🙂
He looks ready for us to get him even more jazzed up 🙂 Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! He was a good boy here!!!!!
Good job with the various markers here, I think it is helping him know where to look and how to approach each type of reinforcement.
For the bringing it back: I think we can add a little helper cue of some sort to remind him to bring it directly back. It is easy to fade a helper cue, and he gets a little frantic when he doesn’t know what you want and offers all sorts of things. Since we don’t want to build in the frantic energy and all of that offering, we can help him out. With that in mind:
What do you think the best helper cue would be to get him to move directly back to you with minimal tossing? I think last time you were moving in a little so you could move back – so maybe moving back on the first couple of reps (with the open hand cue you had here) and then during the session, fading the motion. The other options are a pat of the leg or a verbal cue, both of which can be faded out pretty easily.And I gotta say: He was hilarious when he accidentally tossed the toy at you LOL!!! He looked as surprised as you did! Ha!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I don’t know if this was too much too soon, but I do think some of the verbals were conflicting in terms of definitions so she was confused.
The look on her face when you said “OK GO EAT” was priceless on the first rep. She was like…. wait, what? Release, go… but turn back? OK means go forward out of the stay. Also, GO in front of a jump means move forward in extension so she might be confused.When you led out and said ok let’s go, that is very similar to what you were using for the turn back so she did ask a very valid question there about what you wanted.
I think clarifying the markers will really help: maybe just use “Eat!” And then point at it, as that really helped! And save OK and Go for when you want her to commit to lines and release forward off the start line.
And then before each rep, remind yourself to not use ok or go, just ‘eat’ 🙂
Let me know what you think! Clarifying the words should totally help.
TracyHi!
>> I found myself not always perfect with my verbals, even though I rehearsed first.It is hard to have all these words LOL!!!! Try to say the verbal without anything in front of it, like “ok go eat” or “go get it”, as that will muddy the marker up a bit. Also, you can probably just say “eat” or “get it”, because we want go to remain a valuable directional on course.
>> Once she got the idea of going back to the lotus with food, she seemed happy to do so. ;). I did toss in a couple of “cookies” forward rewards, too.
Yes, she was happy with that for sure! On the ‘cookies’ release forward, you can also use your release from a stay to move forward, the cookies to mark the reward from hand.
>>Questions – I’m using “go eat” for the food reward, but when I switched to the food/tug toy, I automatically used the toy “get it.” Is this confusing to her (or just to me…?).
I think it falls into the category of things you CAN train but don’t need to train 🙂 In this setup, we can let the context dictate things and only use one marker word. I could, theoretically, say “toy toy” for both cookies or toys because contextually, I am only leaving one thing behind her and the marker means “turn back to get the thing behind you”. You can train different markers, but that is only ever useful if you plan to leave both a toy AND cookies behind her, and you will want her to discriminate which one to take. I mean, you are welcome to do it… but it seems a lot of easier to just leave one thing behind her and have the marker indicate to turn back and get whatever thing you left there.
Is ‘get it” used anywhere else for her? If so, use a different marker that is specific to the turn back.Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This was another interesting session!
The toy toy game was not ready for the great outdoors yet, as he told you when he took off. Good to know! You can keep building it indoors and also on thE flat outside, without jumps.For the weave reinforcement: I think he is doing really well here and really beginning to understand what this is about 🙂 Be super clear with the marker – try not to have the marker starting with “go” or “good boy” coming before it, as both of these will happen elsewhere on course and do not mean ‘go to reward’ in those situations 🙂 I think also starting with “get” it might be hard too, because you sometimes say things like “get your weaves”. So, “let’s go” might end up being the best candidate for being super clear, because he will be responding to the “let’s” and I don’t think he hears it in any context on course. Let me know if that makes sense!!
Nice work 🙂
TracyHi!
Yes, planning reinforcement is definitely the hardest part!!! I think that perhaps agility and remote reinforcement after a run is more associated with food, which is why the toy was not a valuable reinforcement to him here. Same with the bushes – perhaps he has associated the ‘end’ of a run with food, so that is what has become valuable. Reinforcement is tricky as we sort it out!
So, go with the highest value food you have. 🙂
What is the remote reinforcement marker? I could not tell if it is was let’s go or go get it – so try to be as clear as possible. Otherwise, the rest looked good – the weaves looked great and you will gradually want to increase the length of the sequence with the weaves (and by extension, the reward) coming later and later 🙂Nice work!
TracyHi! This session was pretty strong too! The hardest part for him was the treat behind your back – that was more distracting than if you were just holding it 🙂 I think the behind-the-back treat was causing him to either say “whatcha got there?” Or he was predicting that it was about to be delivered. So, don’t hide it, have it right there in your hand 🙂
He was a little engaged in the fluffy toy at the end, so on knowing that he might get lost of in the moment of shredding it, you can ask for the out more quickly before he gets too into it 🙂
But overall, really nice session!
TracyGood morning! Everything here is looking super good, so the ideas are mainly about things you can add 🙂
Plank work with the cookie looked good at the beginning, he was a little of balance – he actually was better at turning around with the toy, perhaps because his center of gravity was lower and the arousal didn’t distract his body awareness. Then when you went back to the cookies later, he was much better balanced when turning. Yay! You can add in the full 360s turns in the center of the plank, away from you (which is probably easiest) then towards you (which is often harder for the dogs)
Do you have 2 tables so the board can be even higher now?Toy races – very straight and fast! And the parallel line was really spot on.
Since he is doing this from a stay, 2 ideas for you:
You can do less and less of a lead out (you only had one step) until you are actually behind him – this challenges him to maintain his drive forward even as you are progressively further and further behind (planning ahead for those massive ending lines of big courses in his future :))
And then you can do the reverse: Take longer lead outs, and see if he can still beat you to the toy 🙂Blinds – thse are looking really good!!! You even got the double in really nicely! Yes, keep reminding yourself to keep your arms in tight to help build the habit. The other thing you can do is to throw the toy out ahead and do this as a toy race, blind cross combo where you release, do a blind, then continue driving to the toy (this will be HARD because he will have to focus on the handling and not just the running :))
Wobble board: really nice setup! It was challenging but also easy enough to build a lot of confidence and success. You were nice and low and so was his head – perfect! You can also use a tug toy for this, either releasing him forward to tug (that’ll be easy) or going to him to tug while he is in position on the wobble board (harder but great for weight shift training for the teeter!)
Question: do you have reward markers such as ‘get it’ for when he can release forward to a reinforcement versus when to take it from your hand or a marker that says “stay there, I am tossing the treat to you”? Same for toys and the various placements. We can start building his toolbox of markers since he has so many other things in place. I mention this because you are getting some tooth hugs from him 🙂 and he might just need more clarity about where to look for reinforcement and when to NOT look at it. I have found these markers to be the most helpful thing when we are getting frustration behaviors despite super high rates of success in the sessions (and all of your sessions have been really successful!) So if you are seeing the tooth hugs even when the rate of success is really high, we can look at clarifying the reinforcement. Or if it happens when the success rate is low, we can look at how to keep the rate higher for him.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>can you use food for the backward reinforcement? I’m guessing I would need a totally different marker word for food behind? Correct?>>
Do you mean the turn back from the stay? Yes, you can totally use food! You don’t need a different word because of the context (we only leave one thing behind the dog) unless you feel silly saying toy toy for food 🙂 the only other reason for separate words would be if you were going to leave toys AND food behind him and needed to tell him which one. I don’t recommend that, though, as it is a discrimination that is very low on the priority list.
However, I do recommend you do this with toys because it is a procedure that can do into the trial ring!
>>Also, I’m having some minor surgery next week and will it be ok if Vicki takes over for me for a few days and sends in videos of Reilly’s work?
Hope it is an easy surgery and quick recovery! And yes, it is totally fine if Vicki sends in videos 🙂
Tracy
Good morning! So much great stuff here!!
Backing up – This is a good challenge for her! I would like her head lower on this one, I feel she is keeping her nose at the same levels as your hand so her head it getting a little high as she is ‘looking’ for the target. Try this sitting in a low chair or stool so you don’t kill your back, and so the reward hand can be low enough that her focal point is below her shoulders and not above.
You can also use a toy for this!
And when you get her head lower (probably just by changing your hand position) you can go to the next step, a moving target behind her 🙂 like a wobble boardYAY! The beginning tug and toy return looked great and I think it will continue to improve. She did a great job bringing it back and you were awesome about NOT taking it away from her when she did so: you played then let her have it again (a double whammy reward). Have you ever played the “Opposite Game” where you basically say to the dog “take it, go for a run, I don’t want the toy” and you keep sending her away with it… because for some reason, this toy magically strengthens the retrieve and diminishes the victory laps LOL! Moving back away from her definitely was helping her bring the toy to you 🙂 You can start adding distance and also try out the opposite game 🙂
For the parallel path game – were you feeding her bubble gum? LOL! This is going well, I have two suggestions to get her to stop looking up at you so much:
Have the cookie primed and ready to toss so it is almost immediate with the marker for the foot hit, so she doesn’t have time to look back at you – you had to move it to the toss hand which too too long, so she was looking at you.
And, since everything between the click and the treat gets reinforced, the instant cookie throws will help get rid of her looking up at you but also… get rid of the clicker (at least for now, maybe forever with this skill) – the click naturally causes the dogs to look at us, and then the looking at us can get built in no matter how fast you can toss the treat. So use a quiet “yes” or “get it” marker and toss the treat as fast as you can, no clicker needed anymore. That can get even more independence and then you’ll be able to add more distance.
Sending with the prop: This is going well, she is doing a great job leaving to hit the prop! You can drop the clicker on this one too, and also use toys if you like.
On the forward sends, you were turning your body a bit like a post turn, which is why things might have felt odd as you were moving away. The body line can be more like what you did at :27 where you were aiming more for a FC.
Also, for the countermotion element of you moving away early, begin the send with you already sideways or backwards – I think that will make the countermotion element feel smoother for you both. Her commitment looks really good, so you can definitely add the sideways and backwards sending and the countermotion 🙂
About her feeling oppressed by being touched -that is a very Border Collie thing LOL!!! The good news is her arousal has come up for the food, she was totally in work mode and was excited by it! But that also means she was in “don’t touch me, I am working” mode LOL!!! So as long as the gentle touch is then paired with action, I think she will get over it but will probably never love hugs and kisses during work LOL!!!Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> You are 100% correct that he learned shaping with food VERY early on….like maybe starting with sits the day he came home
I think that we are all getting more aware of the classical conditioning/associations and how much more powerful that is than good old operant conditioning (sorry Skinner, but Pavlov is kicking yer butt!). That would explain why dogs see a wing and food and start to offer wraps: conditioning response! But see a toy and a wing and start to offer stays (conditioned response). It is partially classical conditioning, and that comes about because of the use of the food or toys as reinforcement for the particular skill – which increases the classical conditioned response. It is complex, but simple LOL!!! And very intertwined, we cannot really separate them. Darn it. LOL!
>> And I never would’ve picked up on the fact that my “position/movement” was a big piece of the not understanding to “offer” when the toy was involved.
I jokingly call this the “international sign for offer me something” LOL!! Dogs are brilliant and also they have no control over the reflexive/classical response.
>>I was totally stuck on thinking that he didn’t know what to do unless there was food involved, which is right but not for the reason I was thinking.
It is more like he knew exactly what to do LOL!!! Pavlov was driving the bus there. Fascinating stuff.
>>I listened to one of Sarah Stremming’s podcasts where she and Megan Foster talk for over an hour about reinforcement procedures. It was fascinating!
This one is on my list – it is always interesting to hear what people are doing the same, doing differently, etc.
Glad you are having fun! I love geeking out over this 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>> Tug isn’t really a word I have used for anything specific, it’s more chatter then anything. I am deciding on what additional words I might need to use for both food and toys depending on the situation and ideally same word regardless of whether it is food or a toy.
Sounds good! The trend in training is to have clearer reinforcement procedures and better mechanics, and markers definitely help. Your list is a good one andI am sure you will continue to sort out which ones are useful and which ones are redundant. I don’t mind if we rely on context for some of them – between markers, cues, directional verbals, different sports… we are getting towards 100 verbal cues and we need to be sure that the pups help us out if possible LOL!! ANd I really like chatter too because that easily turns into engagement and play without toys or treats.
>>I have a question that is not strictly about the course but I wanted to see if you have any ideas.
Uh oh! Be right back, getting more coffee for this one lol
>>>Second step is putting the scent in a box and rewarding them for putting their nose to a hole we cut in the top of the box, we give them the reward at the hole to encourage them keeping their nose there. We don’t want feet on the box. For MaxPup we are getting the pups to put feet on a box or box-like object and rewarding it.
You can probably guess my question – Any thoughts on how can I make the games look different to Beka? >>>Ah yes, we do a ton of feet on things with puppies for agility and fitness. Is the scent box eventually going to always look the same in scent work? Is it a certain type of box?
I think you can make the picture different by holding the box (smaller version of it if it is a relatively big box) so the back is in your palm and the nose is facing her, and hold it at nose level or higher so feet are less of an option (sitting in a chair will probably help you do this without killing your back). Your palm could be perpendicular to the floor, similar position to hand touches and then you can eventually make your way to the palm being parallel to the floor, and lowering the box (very gradual progression over many session, and the scent will soon become the cue that it is her nose, not her feet :))How to keep her from confusing it with a nose touch to the hand? Probably just successive approximations but my guess is that the box is so salient that it won’t be a problem. You can also start with just the lid of the box, scent on the other side, and then you can feed her through the hole!
Or, tape the scent box to the wall at nose height or just above, then gradually work its way down to the floor over time.
>>I’m standing in both situations.
Eventually yes, but you don’t need to start there with a puppy.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
These are good distractions!! You can start with the easier ones or simulate them (a bag of treats on the ground can simulate bugs lol) or make a second list of distractions you can add in at home easily.Here is the video with the teeter in it (towards the end :))
Have fun!
Tracy
