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Hi!
The donut is pretty huge for puppies and not very stable, so I like that you added in other things to help get her hind end going. Perfect! She was much more secure (and not as compressed) with the Bosu there and was happily offering all four feet. NICE! IYou can ask for a position change – when her hind end is on the Bosu, ask her to go from a stand to a sit (all 4 on the Bosu) then back to a stand (front feet on the donut) That is a great challenge! I don’t think she is ready to do it yet on with her back feet on the donut though.
Only one other suggestion – let her hop off after the release before yo throw the toy – in her rush to get the toy, she is not exactly thinking about being coordinated about dismounting the setup, so we don’t want her to scatter her limbs everywhere getting off of these LOL!
Plank – do you have a 2nd one? You can put 2 side by side for her to turn around on, then fade the 2nd one> I think she can probably turn around on the single one with a little more experience and a slow turn cue hand helping her turn.
On this set up, you can also be careful on the release so she moves before you move: say break, let her step off, then whip out the toy, You were saying ti and moving and bringing the toy out, so she went directly into GIMME TOY TOY mode and wasn’t thinking about her body as much 🙂
On your bigger plank, you can elevate it even more and you can also do some recalls across it.
Backing up:
Nice job keeping your reinforcement low so she also kept her head nice and low! Since we are obsessing on mechanics… you are moving your hand/shoulders forward then saying back then clicking. See if you can flip it so the cue comes before you lean forward/move your hand. You might need to either be sitting down or less leaned when you are bent over, so you can be stationary, say the cue, then move the hand. I am not sure if the hand cue is designed to be what elicits the behavior for her, or if you are early with your hand motion for the treat throws… but the hand motion is getting the behavior with the form we like, so I think if we acknowledge that it is the cue, we can fade it: your hand can be stationary, say the cue, then move the hand, then c/t. And then we progressively reduce the hand movement so she can do it on a verbal only. Right now the hand motion is eliciting the behavior and also keeping her head low, so I want to keep it around!!>>Iat least that were true yesterday).
This statement ^ right here sums up puppy training 1000%! HA!
>>Throwing the hollee roller was way too much. She brought it back and got all stalky, standing and staring at me to throw it again. I quit that session and when I came back to it, she was still sticky and not wanting to move. >>
Interesting and great info! Remind me -will she tug with the hollee roller?
>>This morning, I went back to a regular tug toy. And I realized something else – I have been delivering the toy only on my right, so after the first reward there, she did not want to go to my left to that bowl. So I had to do some remedial work. >>
Darn smart dogs, pointing out our patterns. LOL! But again, good info.
>>So I seem to be going backwards in terms of progress on this one.
Not backwards at all in terms of sorting out her reinforcement procedures/strategies! That is far more important than the wing wrapping stuff (that is the easy part). You can take the hollee roller and install a different game with them – rather than throw away fro you, throw them behind you: when she brings the first one, throw the next one behind you or in the opposite direction so she has to come towards you to get it. And when she brings hollee roller #1 back, you can ask her to tug on HR #2 then you throw it behind you – creating a loop that drives her in with no sticky stalky stuff, so you can then use the HR more. Do this away from any specific training, just to play around with the reinforcement.
It sounds like Dellin is just a master at immediately telling you about how placement reinforcement affects behavior (thanks, Dellin LOL!!!!!) so it is great learning to sort it out now 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> My concern with only using the toy is that I don’t want to rely on using a higher arousal level to override any concerns she has with the motion. Have had too many BC’s go through teeter issues of various severity (Rayven being the worst) and taking a lot of time to work through them, when it would have been better for them to be comfortable with the motion without their arousal overriding any concerns until it doesn’t anymore.>>
I look at it differently – make a nice pairing with something she loves early on, then insert food and more thoughtfulness a little later on. Let her offer for the toy – she jumps on, gets a bit of tug, you release for a treat, she jumps on, gets a bit of tug, and so on. That is a nice balance of high value but also NOT overarousal. Food is not yet high enough in value here to stand a chance in case she is worried about it, so go with what is high value. Otherwise, she might have an arousal change because she is a little worried – and that is when we see overarousal. If she is aroused enough that the distraction of the movement fades away, you won’t see overarousal (Yerkes-Dodson bell curve for sure!)
>> but probably will have trouble beating her even with a push back unless the toy is close to us.
Feel free to cheat and distract her with a cookie throw (or a fake cookie throw LOL!)
>Separate drive ahead from retrieve. I may need to make the toy a fair bit longer to make sure I can get it when she beats me.
Or make it so big that it is hard to run away with since she is small. When my Pap, Crusher, was 16 weeks old, she weighed 3 lbs so I used a toy that weight 5 lbs. I bet if you used a 5 lbs toy (it was just a bunch tied together) then she would not be as quick to run off with it, buying you tie to get into the tugging 🙂
Tracy
Thanks
Lori
Hi!
Great job adding the toy and taking the dust pan outside 🙂 He was great!
Yes – you can move away to present the toy as long as you are stationary (for now) til he hits the prop. Basically… don’t be twitchy LOL!! You were NOT twitchy here, you were great about being patient til he hit, then being exciting with the toy (moving back was perfectly fine here)
These were sending forward to the dust pan – now you can add in the sending sideways and sending backwards. His commitment is looking really strong!LOVED the toys involved with the wing wraps!!! This is going to segue very nicely into the games where we build on the wing wrapping. For now, keep everything the same for another session or two, but change the upright you used here to something bigger, like a big wing if you have one or a big laundry basket or garbage pail. For now, don’t move back when you present the toy (you were not really moving back here) – we are going to add specific motion pretty soon, so the higher priority is adding a bigger wing.
Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
His goating looks fabulous, he is a confident little dude! I love It!
He had zero trouble with any of the items you had him on – he was able to get on, hop off for the treat, get back on. Easy peasy! So now you can add more balance challenge and have him stay on the discs for longer, or change from a stand to a sit, or walk back and forth from the big disc to the bone then up the stairs LOL!
Jumping in the chair was HILARIOUS! LOL!
>>I did manage to get engagement with the toy after I put food up higher and was done with this session of shaping.
He is a hoot! And it is great that he did end up engaging. I think the location was very paired with food at that point, plus there was probably a pool of scent from having done the shaping – so to get the interaction wit the toy: yes to getting the food and prop out of the picture, but you can also move him to a place that is not associated with the food and there is no pool of scent – and then you can be nuts with the toy. At the end of the first video, you were only a few feet away and you got him to tug – that is a MAJOR breakthrough! I used to have to run to a different room in the house with my foodie dogs and with him you can see how just a few feet make a big difference! NICE!
On the plank:
Mr. Confident didn’t even let you finishing getting the plank set up before he was goating all over it LOL!!!! And the get on and turn around were both perfect – he is really balanced little dude plus he is happy to follow cookies. Remember to add in having him jump off the side of it, so he knows how to dismount safely in case he ever loses his balance on a taller plank.One other thought about the toys: because the planks and discs and even the training room are very associated with food, and food is a distraction from tugging, you can have a disc on the floor in the corner of the room and just bring him in to play with his toys for a little bit – no shaping or food training involved. This can help him learn to play with the toy in the presence of something food-associated, but without the food stimulation in that moment. Let me know if that makes sense.
Great jb here!
TracyHi there!
>>She’s good on the plank on the ground. I can raise it, yes? However, I’m not sure what I have.
Yes, she was great! My only suggestion is to feed with her head lower when you are rewarding and turning her – her chin should be parallel to her top line and not above it (maybe even a little pointed down) as that will be better for balance. And yes you can totally raise it – in the olden days I would suggest phone books to raise it with but I don’t think those exist anymore LOL!! So cinderblocks? Textbooks? Old tires? LOL! You can also flip the setup up and use the balance disc and fit bone to lift the plank.
She was also really good on the balance disc, and disc/fit bone combo! This is definitely a place you can feed lower so she does not look up for the food – looking up changes the weight shift and we definitely want her to keep her head low to shift her weight back to balance on these. I think you don’t need to click, as that causes her to look up: you can click the first interaction if you like, but then feed low and keep feeding low (don’t need to click again) until you release with the find it. That can also help her keep her head low and not watch you as much. She will want to watch a little bit (nothing else to look at LOL!) but feeding low will also help build the weight shift/balance muscle memory.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> I saw from someone else’s thread (I think) that it’s ok to post videos somewhat out of order?
Yes, absolutely fine! This session looked lovely!
>> I was in a hotel room and used available props, so the garbage can as “wing prop” is somewhat short and Leo puts his head over the top a few times,
It is hilarious when he stuck his head into the garbage can a few times, and it is a puppy training online class to post videos from a hotel room (and also to post videos wearing pajamas LOL!). T
his went well – he is VERY SERIOUS about his training, good boy , love it!!!! 🙂 My only suggestion is to turn the garbage pail over so he doesn’t have anything inside to look at (even if there is nothing, it is tempting to look down into it LOL!)
Your timing was really good and yes – he had a bit fi a side preference going: he was basically perfect going from your left to your right, but had more trouble going from your right to your left. That is pretty normal – either he is a righty not a lefty, or the hotel room furniture was restricting his turnaround space. It will be interesting to see when you have more room if there is the same side preference (probably will be). You were smart to move the garbage/cone back in closer: the two sides do not have to process at the same pace – you can move one side (right turns) out more quickly than the other side (left turns). I am sure he will even out really quickly.>>but I hope that’s not disastrous and overall I think he’s getting it. I backtracked when he started to make the same error for the 3rd time in a row, but after that it was all good.>>
Definitely NOT disastrous – really strong session! I agree, he is getting it. When you have more room, you can switch to a cone and also try to get to standing up 🙂
>>Also, I am using too many diff. marker words, oops.
I think you were fine – you were mostly very quiet which is great, and added some big praise in when he had a big moment of ultra smartness 🙂 If you want, you can add in a marker like “get it” right before you drop the cookie. But you can also totally praise the big decisions, it is useful feedback for him.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I agree that she was not as enthused about the tugging her – I don’t know her that well so let me know if you think it was because there was food involved, or the platform signified food to her so tugging was less enticing? Or if she is not used to wild tug in the house (I mean, she is big, so my guess is that you have rules about wild tugging in the house LOL!). It could also be that the tug was high, so it was harder to grip.
So you can try to keep the toy lower and move further from the platform area to get more tug, or even try it outside where there is less of a food basis? Many dogs think that shaping is a food-only thing 🙂 so they reject the toy, even though they are very toy driven in other situations. We can separate the toy and food play to different areas and that can help them both stay strong – and then eventually move them back together.As far as the offering goes… she was brilliant! Yay! I think the next thing is to start getting her on things that move or make noise. What kind of wobble board to balance discs do you have access to? Because she is big, you can put more than one together so she has a big enough playing field to get all of her feet on 🙂 I love her confidence!!!! You can also try to elevate the various things, so she can practice getting on things that are a foot off the floor – it is a good balance game for the puppies 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
The blinds look great! She is reading them perfectly and you are making great connection before and after. You were a little late on the last one as you noted, mainly because you waited for her to get the cookie before you ran and she is on to the game now, so she came steaming up the line. However, she read the blind immediately which is great – we want her to be able to react instantly. Super!!!!!Do you have a longer toy? I think after the blind, you can drag a longer toy so she is driving out and looking down and not put to your hands – you can also tie the toy you were using to something longer and unfurl it as the reward 🙂
Great job here! This is a good one to play in different environments to help get her really comfy wherever she goes 🙂
TracyHi!
This type of session can go on for 3 minutes, no problem. She did a great job figuring out the pattern with the bowls; good job moving to the wing!And I agree – she is a righty, meaning she prefers to work off your left side and turn to her right. This is normal, and in fact, it is good to know! So yes – move the cone in when she is starting on your right and turning to her left, and back out when she is going to her stronger side.
She is doing a fabulous job of offering the behavior and so I know it will balance out easily. All of my dogs have shown a strong side preference at 6 months too (2 lefties and one righty LOL!) and now that they are basically adults, you can’t see the side preference any more.
On the 2nd video, with you standing, she did GREAT and she is already balancing out on both sides!!!
>>She looks six months in this one when she trips over the cone!!!
That made me crack up. OOPSIE! Hahaha!!!
One thing you can to to balance the sides for now: moving the cone is hard when you are standing up, so as you drop the cookie in the bowl, you can either step forward to make it easier (closer to the cone, when she is on your right) or step back when she is on your left so it is harder. As long as she is eating her cookie while you step in or out, and it is not really a cue – it will make it even easier for her!
One thing to note that is also really good: watch her as she wrap the cone. Watch how she is leading with her head, turning her head first into the turn and then bending the rest of her body – that is perfect and exactly what we want! It predicts that she will have great turns in the future 🙂
Great job here!
TracyHi! This is going so well! She is giving a foot and nose bop to the target LOL!!!
I thought she was going to pick it up at one point!
She was pretty perfect when you were a couple of feet away. When you added distance with her on your left – no problem. Her only questions came when she was on your right. It is possible that she is less comfy working off your right side as we saw with the pivots, and also that your right hand is also your magic cookie hand so she doesn’t want to leave it. Even when she was on your left to start, I think the rewards came from your right. So two suggestions:
When she is on your right, stay a little closer on your sending for now – it will balance out and catch up to your left side sends with more success from being close on your right.
Also, try to add in rewards from your left side too 🙂 When you send on your right, reward from your right. When you send on your left, reward from your left (this might be weird-feeling if you are a righty :)) That will balance out the reward mechanics and she will learn the rhythm of sending no matter where the cookies are located 🙂Her focus on you with the ready dance followed by the send to the prop looks AWESOME!!!!! Great job here!
TracyHi! She will totally learn the difference, no worries there! So the lower head here is just a jump start to get the muscle memory going 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>> I’ve used a nose target with my big dogs for a long time and do like it so think I’ll just go back to that for my teeter 2o2o. If Nancy fusses at me I’ll survive >>
Ha! I mean, we teach it differently now (my nose touch teeter dogs are not required to do 50000 nose touches in order to get the reward and it is not a big press to the ground) but that extra layer of criteria has really made for some amazing , decade-long teeter performances! Caveat, though – not every dog has the structure for a nose touch in the front end assembly so I certainly don’t recommend it for all – my BW does more of a head bob because his forelimbs are so long that he would be really uncomfortable doing the nose touch. Ripley has the structure to do it if you so choose from what I can see in the videos 🙂
>>we haven’t done tons of it with super specific criteria as far as speed, distance or straightness.
That is good – with pups, it is far better to work on technique before adding anything else especially because they are still growing.
I like how he is using his back feet independently and methodically rather than flinging himself around 🙂 And the ‘destination’ helps keep him straight! Perfect!
And for now, I think it is fine to do this without toys because the form needs him to be very thoughtful. Eventually the toy play can come in to challenge him to be thoughtful while also in higher arousal (great for contact training and also great for warming up before running at a trial!)One small detail to help with form: He is using your hands (your right hand in particular because it is the magic cookie hand) as a focal point which is perfectly fine, except he is raising his head to do that. You can see his head is above his top line. Ideally, his head stays level to the top line or just below it. So any easy fix – I have no problem with him using your hand as a focal point; in fact I think it is really clever! So, let’s lower the focal point by having your hands lower. If your back will allow it, bend over so your hands are somewhere between his chin and his elbows. My back would allow 3 or 4 reps of that LOL! You can also do this with you sitting and hands in your lap. Or with you standing, you can place a bowl down as the focal point, with the cookie already in the bowl – you have enough stimulus control on the bowl and cookie, I think, that you can put the cookie in the bowl, cue the back up, then mark/release to the bowl.
>>Here we did backup to his Cato board flat, then to his wobble board with the edge propped on a low step then to his wobble board at a steeper angle.
All looked really good! You can add a little more motion to the wobble board if you like. For the wobble board at a steeper angle, my PT vets have all asked me to not going any steeper than you have it here – he was able to get his back feet in it while still in a natural, functional shoulder position. They don’t want the dogs to do any extensions of the shoulder with all those small, developing soft tissues by having the hind end higher up. The PT vets have all specifically requested that we NEVER do those Superman/handstand tricks with the dogs, so I pass that along in puppy classes 🙂
Great job! Have fun at the trial!
TracyGood morning!
>> Had the class in an uproar laughing because it was so funny and cute, but I was relieved he didn’t get hurt!
Yikes! I would have been scared too, we love his drive but we don’t want him to break himself!!
>>Video 1 – Tugging
>>Okay so don’t judge me but I had JUST finished my workout and Ronin was absolutely demanding to play so I figured it would be good opportunity to video some tugging. I would not normally video in just my workout clothes, but I’m getting too old to care what people think of how I look (I exercise so I can keep up with hubs’ activities >>Ha! No judgement here, have you seen what I am wearing in half of those videos? You look great! It is an online class rite of passage to post videos in workout clothes, unbrushed hair, and also pajamas LOL!!
>>I thought this was good but reaI was actually trying to tone down the tugging a bit and let him do the work without me moving the toy around too much and my vocals kind of followed suit. Is that okay or should I be more vocal? I also wasn’t sure if too much talking would distract him, but I guess that’s something I could experiment with as I get to know his likes and dislikes.>>
I think this looked great, you were plenty vocal and playful! You can keep adding in the gentle tapping of his sides to get him to pull back more (terriers love that and these little guys are terriers, right? LOL!) For getting the toy back, will he trade for another toy or cookie? Prying it out just builds more drive to clamp down on it 🙂 And when he does let go of it, you can offer the next toy from the pile. Or a boring cookie to see if he will eat it then get back on the toy, all good skills to have for future training.
Backing up:
>> One question for now though, is the backing up onto an object going to be mostly for the purposes of training a 2-on/2-off contact or for something else? I kind of want to know where we are going with that one in terms of backing up ON to something.>>
Good question! While backing up onto something is nice for a future 2o2o… I use it more for general back foot awareness and weight shift. My bigger pups only have a 2o2o on the teeter (the little one does a 4on for the teeter) and they run all the other things – I have found this backing up game to be super helpful for the running contact training which relies on specific placement of the back feet (and weave training and jump work and conditioning work and so on and so on – and also for back foot placement on the box turn for flyball!). So it is good for general body awareness even if you don’t want to do a 2o2o, and it can be applied a whole bunch of different places.
As you found, there are a number of ways to teach this and it looks like this method kind of ‘clicked’ for him! I went to this method because I couldn’t get my Papillon to back up with any other method I had used LOL! Because he is little, we really want to keep his head down – you can help him by keeping your hands even lower, almost dangling then so you can toss really low so the treat lands between his front feet – we want him looking down and not up, so reward placement will help him. Think of his front feet as a hockey goal and you are trying to flick the treat low into the goal.
Backing up onto the thing: I think he did his best when you started him really close to it so all he had to do was step back up onto it. You can also start him with all 4 feet on, lure his front feet off, and let him put his front feet back on (also great for a 4on teeter behavior!). Then build it up to all 4 feet off, so he steps his back feet on. He was really beginning to get it! He was also showing that it was difficult, by getting close to it but not ON it LOL!!! So keeping it simple for now will help – we don’t need distance on this skill at this stage, just understanding and body awareness.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> Hmm, about the only thing I have available is one of the cushions (about 2’x2′ and 4″ high) from an old couch that I use for some conditioning work at times. Other than that it would be a fit bone or use a couple of my smaller balance disks.>>
Perfect, couch cushions work? Or a folded up box or a bunch of towels… goats don’t cate what they climb on, so we don’t need to play goat games on dog-specific stuff LOL!! I think the balance discs and fitbones require a core strength and balance that a 16 week old puppy does not yet have, so do this with stable surfaces for another month or so with more limited interaction with unstable surfaces.
I >>just pulled a variety of different things together in the bucket to see what she would do. She actually likes tugging on the leash and tugs pretty hard on it, but it’s always been done when she is wearing it so not so it’s not bunched up. >>
Yes, she definitely said the context was way different with the leash.
>>Don’t have many long toys at the moment.
Shopping! Or, tie several toys together – a shorter toy to a longer toy.
>>I still don’t have a great idea of what types of tugs are more or less fun for her. Will try to build an order that offers more fun after less fun.
Because she likes movement, the longer toys that move more with the softer things to grab easily are at the top of her list at the moment. The toys that are harder to grab, smaller, with your hand right there… lower on the list at the moment.
On the videos:
Goat game wobble board:
This is a good set up! Get it for tossed treats and also having her go back and forth for the toy is fun for her too. Do you have a marker for when you want her back on the toy? I add in a “bite” marker. You can wait for her to offer getting back on the thing after the get it cookie rather than just smack the toy, so the toy is ,ore of a reinforcement of what she offers and less of a lure for this.
And, bear in mind that you can shape the whole session with the toy!2nd session:
Bear in mind that you do not need to make this harder each session. It can stay where it is for several sessions. She totally noticed the change in movement and got more tentative. So for your next session – just leave it here, don’t go down to 1 mat under it. My general rule with puppies is to get at least 2 sessions in a row of super high rate of success (90% or better of high level confident offering) before I change anything. She was starting to offer by the end here, but really only front feet because there was more motion. So don’t change anything on the next session, or you risk her beginning to overthink it. Instead, just do another couple of sessions like this til she is slamming it all around, then change something a tiny tiny bit. I think using toys only for this will be better than food- it is just more exciting and action-packed for her, so she moves more and thinks less 🙂Driving ahead session:
She did great with the driving ahead! Nice job being connected to her, releasing her when she was looking ahead, and she was great about driving ahead without any worry about your motion. SUPER!!!! Add more distance whenever you get a moment and have space to do it.
About the running off with the toy.. Bearing in mind that this is a drive ahead game and not a retrieve game: You don’t have to ask her to retrieve it, you can just get in there and play play play. You got to the toy with her then turned and ran away. By running away, you asked her for a skill she does not have and added failure to an otherwise great session on the skill you wanted to train. So when she arrives at the toy, reach in and play with her rather than ask for a retrieve. You were close enough to be able to do that here, she only ran off when you asked for the retrieve. If in the past she has taken off with the toy when you reached for it, then yes – make it a REALLY big toy by tying a bunch of toys together so she gets one end and you get the other. But even with a really huge toy or a toy on a line… don’t ask for a retrieve with this game, just play. The retrieve can be trained separately and that way you can build up both skills.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there! This was an insightful session! He wants you to help more by indicating; we want him to offer more so we don’t have to indicate as much 🙂
I think at the beginning he probably put himself in a stay (and a couple of other times during the session) so start with some play so that he doesn’t put himself in a stay or a cookie toss away (like you added later on).
You caught yourself with t he ‘yes’ marker 🙂 Correct, try to just say “bite” and not yes – we all have the ‘yes’ habit LOL! But the reinforcement markers will be more effective for training.
Tossing the get it cookie was great because it got him moving and so you got less of a stay behavior. It was interesting to see how much stay he offeredL stay and attention on your face. So, you can help him offer more as that will boost confidence and strengthen commitment even more!
Definitely more shaping is on tap so you can get him to offer movement without the stay he is offering. Do the shaping without a wing, do it on something random where there is potentially less value for a stay behavior – a box or a balance disc or anything random. Then we can easily slide the wing back into the reinforcement procedure, after you have established movement as part of it.By the end, he was totally starting to get it! Yay! He was still looking up at you, a bit suspiciously LOL!!! OK maybe not suspicious but definitely with questions. I think if you are sitting on the ground or on a low chair, he will be better with his head low and looking for the object and not at you.
Great job getting this started! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
