Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Ugh, sorry!!!! Thanks for bumping it back up!
The background music here was great at the beginning! And the mat tugging is both hilarious and brilliant. He doesn’t have a great out on the mat but I think that is actually fine – you can make it a bit of a wrestling match to really keep the mat value high, because that mat is golden: he relaxes on it and you can also use it as a way to get him stimulated before the run. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone else do this, but it is brilliant!!! Putting it on cue will help but don’t worry too much if he doesn’t let go of it that easily for now.
I wonder how the big name behavior experts will feel if we all adopt this ‘tug on the relax mat’ game? But I think it is GREAT!!!!!!!! And he does this outside the ring at a trial too? Perfect!
The other thing I would do with this is use it as the remote reinforcement – so at the end of the run, he can run over and tug on his mat. It can sit outside the ring (or outside the sequence in training) and it is a great remote reinforcement!
Great job here! Let me know what you think! I am off to teach my dogs to tug on their relax mats LOL!
Tracy
Hi!
>> loved having the Zoom chat last night! It’s makes the online classes more personal and keeps me motivated!
I agree – it was so fun to chat with all of you!!!! I think. I will plan more of them besides the ones already scheduled.
>>Also, I got in a working spot with Skye at Level Up! Can’t wait for you to see and work with him in person!!!!
Hooray! I think the last time I saw him, he was 8 weeks old!
>> I’m going to have to train myself to be consistent. I was at an agility trial this past weekend, and I had a tug toy in my hand. I said “get it”, and Flurry looked out toward the floor expecting to find a treat and didn’t tug on the toy. >>
Ha! She is so smart! I love it!
On the video:
As soon as he moves to the toy after your tug cue, you can make the toy come alive even before he grabs it. As long as he moves first, you can then go wild with the toy 🙂
He did well with the tug and the out! You can do this with lots of different toys. He was starting to offer behavior when there was a little delay which is fine – yo can definitely use this procedure in shaping sessions!
Question – can he tug with his Outfox on?
Get it also looked good – when you have more room, he will be even higher. He did start a bit of thrashing – let him win with that, really celebrate it because it will build up the value of the tugging which will make being outside with distractions even easier. You were tending to stop the thrashing by asking for him to out within a second or two 🙂
He did think you were a little weird with the shhhhhhhhhh at first – but mainly because I think he was waiting for a release perhaps and doesn’t know that shhhhh is the release? You can add a little opposition reflex on that so that he knows that he is allowed to move towards the toy.With Flurry –
>> There’s no physical issue, I think that she keeps looking for possible food options.
I can relate, I am also always looking for possible food options LOL!
>>I caught myself saying “get it” for the in the hand cue.
I relate here too! There are times when the ‘get it’ pops out so keep working on actively using the other markers.
Her session looked really strong! The cue to out seems to be when your second hand gets on or goes towards the toy? And that is fine, as long as you remember 🙂 She did get better with a one-handed out later in the session, so maybe it only applies when she is really excited.
For the bringing it back – you can do a get it and as soon as her mouth is on it, present a higher value toy in your hand and ask her to come back to tug. Then we can delay the presentation of the 2nd toy until she is on her way back with the first toy. You were very fun, getting her to come back!
And catch is the easiest thing ever for her.And as with Skye – definitely start putting all of this into regular training and trialing. They are both ready for these to happen in ‘real life’ 🙂 Great job!
TracyHi!
Great list of markers! I like the ‘yours’ and ‘mine’ – anything that makes us chuckle is a winner!
>> I don’t think I had a cue for take the toy that’s presented to you cause I don’t think I’ve ever used a toy that way! I either throw a toy for him to chase and bring back, have a preplaced stationary toy or drag/wiggle the toy when I want to tug with him with it. Hmmm…guess I’m wondering what’s the advantage/reason for having him take it from me instead of me wiggling it?
Part of the reason is to help the dog understand very clearly when the toy in your hand is ‘in play’ (available as reinforcement). And for some precision behaviors, we stand still and present the toy. I think your wiggling is also probably moving it away from him so he chases you hand a little? Or is it wiggling in a stationary hand? I separate the moving toy in hand from the stationary hand, to help the dog understand when to lock on to either and also how hard to approach it (there is a different bite strength on these, and I like to protect my flesh LOL!!). And since we run with toys in our hand a lot, a separate moving toy cue is useful.
>> Wondering if I should “test” this type of toy again and see what he thinks? Is this making any sense?
Totally! You don’t need a marker yet if the scenario or type of toy is not reinforcing 🙂
>>My other question is about your Shooo cue. Again I don’t have a cue for this. Sly has become very good about understanding the toy that I’m carrying is mine until I give/offer it to him either by wiggling it, dropping it on the ground and dragging it or throwing it. I think that’s all the ways I usually give it to him and I think I usually say Get it. Which probably isn’t as “clean” as it could be thinking how Get it means leave me and get the reinforcer, which mine does but I also use it when I want him to chase the tug. Hmmm…. Is that’s where your Shoooo cue would come in?>>>
Yes, not having a ‘chase the fast moving toy’ is not as clean as it can be. Is it disastrous? Nope LOL! I mean, Voodoo and Export and all of my older dogs figured it out 🙂 But the youngsters have a much easier time ignoring the toy in my hand that I am running with, so I can then use the shhhhhhh application to get them to really drive to the reinforcement while I stay in motion. It sounds like a lot of the toy procedures you have involve you either throwing it or you are relatively stationary – this one can allow you to keep running. I use it to get a lot of speeeeeeeed 🙂 and if they don’t hear it, they should not look at the moving/dragging toy.
>>Sorry for all the thinking out loud, trying to get it all straight in my head!
No problem at all! I love these discussions!
TracyHi!
yes, there was a lot – I guess it is good that the US Open took up the 2nd week so people could take their time looking through it all. Positive reinforcement is a MASSIVE topic!
>> 1) Pretty much anything that is in a ziplock bag….seriously, if I bring out the Ziplock bag he “knows” that there’s good stuff in it
That’s hilarious! And awesome – positive conditioned emotional response at its best!
The food rewards all look good, except this:
>>5) Doesn’t particularly like cheese
Wait, what? LOL just kidding. My Elektra is not a huge cheese fan either.
>>When he is over the top aroused (usually caused by either insecurity in a new environment or something over the top exciting, like fast noisy dogs doing agility) he sometimes can’t take a treat until he’s removed from the “thing”. This doesn’t happen very much anymore>>
Glad it is diminishing in frequency! Was he able to play in that context? Or he was too distracted and getting further away was the only thing that helped?
>>Toys:
1) Medium sized Hollee Roller, has to be a medium
2) Floramicato Fluffy Jelly Fish Tug
3) Kehu Raspberry Tug
4) Any tug with fuzz, even better if it has a little ball on the end
5) Balls, softish, not too big>>Excellent list, he has great taste in toys.
>>Chasing the Hollee Roller might just be his favorite thing on the planet. If he’s “stressed” at all he has to do a couple of laps before bringing it back.>>
That is fine – there is some science about ‘completing the stress cycle” so I think it is fine to let the dogs have a moment before coming back. It is a great indicator of where they are, mentally, in a session.
>>Activities:
1) Free running….just run, run, run
2) Chase a thrown ball, especially a Hollee Roller>>Fun! Does he like swimming or barking or anything else?
Great list!!! Onwards to your next question 🙂
TracyThese are all really good, and all on the agenda in some form that is either specifically what you mentioned here, or can easily be tweaked to it! Reinforcement is a massive topic so we are going to look at how to creatively apply these procedures to all sorts of different things 🙂
Keep the ideas coming!
TracyHi! Since that happens with her with enough frequency that we note it, I suggest skipping sequencing for now and just working on establishing reinforcement procedures. She is doing fabulously well with sequencing and she is really young – so we can help get rid of the over-arousal moments with reinforcement procedures 🙂 And if you try to train something and can’t get her into a more relaxed state, you can totally stop the session, go in the house, then try again later 🙂
T
And the remote reinforcement with the toy: she was definitely more excited LOL! With the food, she almost heeled with you. With the toy, there was more bop to her step, higher respiration rate, more circling. All good! You were saying get it here which is fine – and probably good for self-control. I guess it is a little different than with the food, where she is probably more likely to want to grab the toy or leave you for it? And let’s go can mean to get the treats when you hand them to her from the bowl. The extra markers are fine but also it is one less thing to have to remember.
Great job on these! We will be building on them soon :)
TracyHi again!
I like how you dramatically dropped the food in the bowl at the beginning LOL!!!
She was great here – you don’t need to say snack because the let’s go implies that you will be handing her the reward. She was excellent about leaving the food, and going back to it (but not throwing herself into the bowl haha!)Onwards to the toys!
T
Hi!
Cool to see her start to search on the verbal before you even tossed the treat at the start! She is really beginning to understand the differences. She was also really good about staying where she was for catch, waiting in front of you for snack, etc. I liked this session, it showed some really nice understanding! And you were really focusing on being precise with your mechanics. So now the next step is to begin planning to use these in your other training sessions, to transfer the concepts and get consistent use of your markers.Great job!
TracyHi! I think this is going really well!!!
I suggest introducing the cookie trading sooner, right at the beginning – it looks like he was stimulated and not releasing about a minute into the session so that is when you went to the cookie trade. You can install the trade as part of the process from the start, so have the cookie already in your hand as you start, so he doesn’t lock onto your hand reaching for your pocket as the cue to out the toy (dogs are brilliant like that LOL!)
He is doing really well with releasing like at 1:20 and afterwards. For now, since the behavior is lured, you can skip using the verbal cue – just stop tugging, present the cookie. When we know we have the behavior, you can insert the verbal back in – to strengthen the verbal we are only going to use it when we know it will work 🙂 It won’t take long to get the verbal back on because you will see him anticipating the drop as soon as your hands relax. But be 10000% certain you either have the cookie ready or you do not reach for your pocket, or reaching for the pocket will become the cue (I have done that by accident :))
You can insert this procedure into any time you play tug with him! It will start to generalize the tug and out into all of your play and training.
Great job!
TracyGood morning! Lots of great stuff here!
Because she is so young, I think we are in the ‘sorting out mechanics and reinforcement” phase more than concerned about the behaviors themselves. The behaviors will be easy when we have the mechanics and rewards sorted out.Driving ahead:
>> Going to say I hate working with a toy on a leash – so awkward. A couple of times she seemed to be more interested looking at the leash part, but things got better as the toy get farther away. I need to start teaching her a retrieve but have to decide on the how. With Rayven it was such a struggle with the bring back part.>>
What does she naturally do with the toy? You might not need the toy on a leash, maybe just a really long toy, or work in a smaller enclosed space like a long hallway so she doesn’t have far to go 🙂
On this game, you can drop the toy to the ground sooner after you get it back, almost immediately – holding it in the air is not exciting and she is not likely to focus on it but dropping it is very exciting and will draw her focus to it. For this game, I would have you sit down so you are not bending over. And as soon as she drives to it, you can get in and get it moving (you don’t need to wait for her to grab it – she is really young and needs the toy to be moving for now). She was getting really good at driving to it!!!
She appears to not want to run away with the toy and is doing a great job focusing on her line and going to the toy 🙂 She was really doing well!
I do think this session was too long though – at 1:40 she was checking out with the toy (also a little distracted by the other dog whining) so you need to be cognizant of the time of the session and end before that happens. Set a timer for 45 seconds then be done – be in mind that this game is a high energy game for the dog at this stage, but not for us humans 🙂 so she is likely to tire easily.Drive to handler – on this video, we can look at your verbals too! You had a lot of tug tug tug then growling at her, then calling her name a bunch of times at the beginning 🙂 I like chatter and all but you can pick and choose when to use it (especially her name) so that it adds value and doesn’t fade into the background. I think you were calling her name to keep her attention – you can make the transition faster by having the treats in your pocket so that it is almost immediate – she was losing attention a bit because the transition from tugging to the start of the game was taking a while, and she is still learning about transitions.
You had really good cookie tosses and your reward delivery was nice and low! Have your hand a little closer to your leg and slow down sooner to put your hand in the picture a little sooner too, so she decels sooner – you were moving til she got to you on a lot of reps, and we want her to see an early transition into deceleration and lack of motion so she has time to process it and slow her butt down – that way she can keep her butt in line and it won’t swing out.
As you add the pivots, pivot more slowly so she can really noodle around your leg for now. She also did really well with the FXs! And the food was super fun for her here too! She does indeed like moving cookies 🙂 Wheee!Wing wraps – nice shirt!
>> I am definitely not sure how to properly apply the toys to this one for moving to the next step where they should turn back to the other side on their own without the toy banging.>>
At the start when she was not going to the banging toy: You can cover the other toy a little more with your hand, and make the new toy that you are banging more visible. It was hidden behind you so she was ignoring the noise because she didn’t see the toy moving. So move the toy forward so she sees it.
Also, you were way too quick to get the next toy banging LOL! I know it is hard to know when to go fast and when to go slow with puppies LOL! She had barely gotten her mouth on the toy when the other one was already banging – be less quick so she can engage with the toy for a couple of seconds. Count to 3 in your head before banging the other toy 🙂
I think the quickness of the toy banging and the lack of being able to see it was why she lost interest at about 1:05 and also why she was not going back to the other toy as well – she didn’t have a chance to get into the back and forth rhythm, so she checked out. It was not boring… it was unclear. So to clarify it, get her on one toy, really let her engage with you – then count to 3 slowly in your head. Let that toy go quiet… then start the other toy up in a place where she can see it – and repeat the process. You’ll see her getting more reinforcement and also you’ll see her understanding the pattern, at which point she will be able to start offering the pattern.
With the cookies – do less IYC on food bowls 🙂 And don’t use food bowls for this game, then – switching to plates a smart idea but she definitely has too much self-control happening: see a cookie that is not moving, don’t go near it. I would say, for now – zero emphasis on self-control with food. We need her to be a bit wilder for food 🙂 I think the IYC on the food bowls is generalizing to stationary cookies, which might be why some of the shaping games are harder. To help break her out of all of that self-control, you can toss/take the cookie with your get it cue to get her moving, and then the game will get easier. Yes, we will fade the get it cue but it is fine for now (it is a reward marker and that is good to use, as long as we don’t overdo the self-control). It is easy enough to teach a BC self-control with food, so feel free to let her be a complete piggie nut for now LOL!
BTW – I have done exactly zero of the traditional IYC games with my 3 youngest dogs and they have the best self-control on food and toys of any dogs that I have ever had 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHello and welcome! I think you will find that this class is dramatically different than when we did it with Edward 🙂 I am so excited to see ViktoR!!!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
These all look great, so we can move to ‘next steps’ on all of them 🙂>> Drive ahead and focus forward with the flirt pole. He really likes chasing the toy on the flirt pole, but he doesn’t tug it much. Anyway, I’m not sure if this is what you had in mind for use to try for using a toy? We didn’t do any with food today for this game.
If I am remembering correctly, he likes the tugging but he does NOT like when the toy is dead on the ground. So with the flirt toy, engaging him then letting him grab it was great and then that transferred really nicely to the driving ahead game! He didn’t lose interest when the toy was not moving and your timing of moving the toy again was great!
So, I know it will be easy to build the driving ahead so before adding distance, let’s keep adding value to the stationary toy. Do everything exactly the same as you did here, with one change: let the toy be stationary a little longer before you release him (then get it moving again when he gets to it).
And if that goes well – do everything the same and do one more tweak: don’t move the toy until after he puts his mouth on it – then let the toy come alive 🙂At that point, you will be able to transition to a regular tuggie so you can throw it further, which allows you to add more distance.
>>Decel and turn game. We tried the first two reps with a stay, but I didn’t want to push it and did the rest with a cookie toss. I saw when I watched the video that I was dropping my hand down again early, instead of waiting till he was up to me. I will work on that for next time.>
It was smart dog training to do only 2 sits and then switch to the cookie toss. Did you see him look at himself in the mirror? Ha! Too cute.
I don’t think you were too early, I think you can lower it to his nose level as he is getting to you (the hand was in there but high up, so he didn’t really see it 🙂 that might be why it felt early). He is decelerating and pivoting beautifully and a lower hand will get him even tighter.
>>Goat tricks. Dice tends to just jump in and on things like you’ll see. I tried three different things to see if he would react differently with any of them but he didn’t really slow down much on any. I didn’t feel like I was really doing any shaping, but I figured I’d better show you what we have so you can tell me where to go with this.>>
He is a supremely confident little goat! I love it! You were not necessarily shaping anything new, it was more like you were reinforcing the offering of getting on/in things (and that is perfect!) Two suggestions on this:
– keep reinforcing all of this getting on and in things, adding in things that move a little like a balance disc if you have one. The things that move should only move a tiny tiny bit because we want him to continue to love this game.
– try to get toys going here too – tug a bit, then put a thing in and give a boring cookie when he interacts… then back to a tug toy. This is more about being able to go back and forth between food and toys and we are inserting a reinforcing behavior in the middle of it (being a goat LOL!). If he struggles, you can move the toy play further away from the item he is offering on, or use the flirt pole.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
