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Hi! Sorry for the delay – somehow in the days of driving I missed this one!
>>Sunday night we did another find em session. I did focus games at first and then my first couple of attempts with the frisbee had a 95% fail rate . After four reps I stopped. >>
That was smart – sometimes we just need to abandon ship for a minute LOL!!
>>So im thinking the value of the weaves isn’t quite there especially compared with the teeter.
Entirely possible – or the teeter is easier. Or both.
>>So after the teeter session and a break I went back and opened the poles up more, no frisbee and worked on running. He seemed much happier (minus a few confusions with set ups after the rep).
>>This set up he was much more successful so I think with the environmental issues he needs clearer rules and more open polestar.>>
Yes, this was a really successful session! Something to think about – when he is struggling, try to dial back only 1 variable, instead of all the variables. So when he was struggling with the poles being tighter plus you moving plus the arousal from the frisbee, the first place to start is dialing back just one of those (such as going to a lower value toy or food) but leaving the others in place. That way you can get success with your motion and the poles a little tighter. And if he *still* struggles, you can dial back one of the other ones, such as opening the poles a little. That way, you can also spotlight what exactly he might be havng a question about – is it the motion? Tightness of poles? Frisbee? The only way to know is to only change one at a time.
Then when you dial one thing back, you can quickly try to add it back or raise criteria on the others. In this session, he did really well, so you can raise the criteria by adding more motion or tightening the poles a bot, all during the same session. Or have the frisbee in your pocket. That will allow you to progress the behavior more quickly, all while sorting out what his distractions are.
So for the next session, you can start where you left off here and then gradually tighten up the poles a little within the session, and see how he does! If he has a struggle, you can dial back one variable: if the poles end up pretty straight, you can dial back motion a bit til he is successful then add it back in. Let me know if that makes sense.
>>I also noticed during this training session I have rewarded the middle (in between my legs) too much and I need to start reinforcing being at my side more.
Yes, that will help too – you can lure him to your side a bit so that he doesn’t offer the middle set up position.
Nice work! Let me know if the idea on the variables makes sense!
TracyHi there!
>> After watching the video it looks like I need to decel earlier? He is going pretty long and wide over the jump even with verbal cue for tight turn.>>
I think the main thing will be tat you have to accelerate more, in order to show the transition into deceleration and then turn sooner. It wasn’t necessarily that the decel was late… it was that it was too similar to the acceleration phase so he didn’t really see the difference. You did have some reps where you were trying to exaggerate it with smaller steps, but the overall rhythm of the motion was the same.
You can also rotate sooner – on these reps, when you freeze the video at his takeoff spot, you should be rotated and running the new direction. But you were generally still decelerated and a little sideways to the jump, which means it was a tiny bit late. So going back to the accelerating into it – if you accelerate more, the deceleration will be more dramatic and then you can rotate sooner.
>>I felt like I needed more distance to better show the difference between me accelerating and decelerating.>>
You can totally add more distance if you like, it will help be able to add all the elements: but start very close to the cone and then explode away from it so the deceleration is very distinct – you can lower your shoulders as you run on the acceleration and then stand up more on the deceleration. It might also help if you put little markers out for you to see how long to accelerate, where he will be when you decel, and where he will be when you rotate. Here is an example of what I mean when I was playing around with one of my small dogs on wrap – I have little cones on the ground so I can keep track of my timing relative to the dog’s position:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZqorl5UpIk
One other little detail – I love that you added in a big racetrack! It was a smart balance to all of the turning. When you have a jump out there and you send him around the back of it, have him come back on over the bar, though so he doesn’t get into the habit of running past the bar on backsides.Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
He is doing well here – a couple of tweaks to help things be even smoother:
>> I found trying to do blinds without continuing to move and cross body rewarding very awkward…but I tried! I wasn’t getting super tight turns so please advise.>>
The rewarding across the body was going well, it does feel awkward at first but then it gets more comfy – you can use a longer toy so it is easier to show him. But definitely keep moving til he reaches you – you were stopping and turning back to him on a bunch of the BC reps when you should be moving towards the next wing so he can chase your line. You don’t have to move fast at first as you sort out the mechanics and timing, but definitely keep moving 🙂
On the FC wraps – using the transitions, you can turn sooner on the wraps at :05 and :13 and :52 so he can drive out of them. You were a little late so he was collecting before the wing but then had to wait to finish the turn around them. Ideally you are already turned and heading up the next line before he even arrives at the wing. At :48 you got there and rotated nice and early – in that situation, you can just move away to the new line, no need to put your hand there on the ‘landing spot’ as it causes him to slow down to wait for you to clear the line (I know some folks use that hand cue on reverse wraps but it is not needed and delays the handler from getting off the dog’s line).
At :08 he didn’t see the tandem turn cue (I think that is what you wanted) so you can call him before he enters the tunnel so he comes out looking for you and the arm cue.
On the Blinds – you were really emphasizing the connection of rewarding across the body, and that was great! He was really reading the side change. Yay! So now to tighten them up: use the same early timing as FC wraps. Your motion and verbal commits him to the wing and you should be completely finished with the BC and reconnected before he arrives at the wing.
At :22 & :28 you were moving through it and you had the earliest timing of your BC reps so his lines were really good on those! They were a tiny bit late, so keep working to start them when he is maybe halfway to the wing so they are finished before he arrives at the wing.
The BCS at :34 and :38 were definitely late, so the turn was not as tight. On the BC at :41 and the last several, you were trying to stand still too much: you can totally keep moving. The ultimate goal is to be able to BC and run out of them at top speed, with connection.
Towards the end, you did a big race track – NICE! He seemed to like that a lot 🙂 FAST and great commitment. Mix lots of those in when working on the tighter turns so he can maintain the joyous “yeeehaw!” of running fast 🙂
Nice work!!
TracyYay! River did a great job on the full teeter in the new place!!! Nice work with the warm up games to help transfer the knowledge. The billboard target helped her a lot! And you can see how the environment stimulated her more too – so on the first full teeter on the first video, she was a little ‘forward’ at 1:08 – it seems like she felt off balance doing that, so on the next rep, she overcompensated with the weight shift (which is a MUCH better choice than splatting herself!). So that 2nd full teeter was a little slower. But on the 2nd video, she was sorting out how to be fast AND balanced – so she was working the weight shift more and doing it closer to the end. Yay! I don’t think she was too hot or tired on those, I think she was actively sorting out how to shift the weight as close to the end as possible without getting off balance. That is great! And the releases were great too, as that will maintain her desire to get to the end of the board.
My only suggestion is to remember to use clear reinforcement markers/releases – in the heat of the moment, we all get into the “yes!” as a release LOL!!! So plan your release and verbal before the rep, so she doesn’t end up wanting to release on a yes or on motion.
Great job! At this point, she just needs more exposure, in terms of taking the skills to new places, adding it to sequences, reducing the target size, etc.
Tracy
Nice job on both of these sessions! It was smart to not change any other elements when there was a new variable (husband walking & talking) in the first video. She seemed very confident on those reps except when the toy was right near the board: that distracted her and then she was surprised when the board slammed. But she recovered well (and you moved the toy away :)) It gives us insight into how a distraction might draw her focus away, so we can use that to add some distractions later on in training.
The second session looked great, and she was a good girl on her first teeter!!! She definitely gave you that look of “what the,.. was that correct??” Ha! But you had a big party and that was perfect. It was hard to see if a target was there or not – if not, you can definitely have on there as it will give her a strong focal point to get into end position (she loves end position :)) and if needed, it can even have pre-planted PB on it! I don’t mind a bit of a prompt for now because it is easy to fade out .
Great job here! Future sessions will look similar to this 2nd video, with more visible target and even some yummies already on the target: and then after the full teeter, let’s see how she feels about it by asking her if she wants to do another normal elevator game. That will give us an idea of how many reps we can plan for and how many full teeters we can ask for,
Tracy
Hi! The first rep was really good – and then he stopped a little shorter on the other reps. I think what is stopping him a little shorter is that his head is coming up to watch you (there are a lot of years of reinforcement history on that). So to keep convincing him to look down to the end of the board and not look at you until he has arrived in position and the board is on the ground, two things to help:
first, leave a small bit of the visual target on the board, mainly to really solidify the habit of head-down on the board (don’t look at da momma!)
second, most (or all) of the reinforcement can be thrown back to him to land right at the bottom of the board where it meets the ground. If the placement of reinforcement is always there, he is very likely to look there. If the placement of the reinforcement is from you hands, he is more likely to look up at you – and considering the reinforcement history, it will take more rewards to convince him that the reward is not coming from you hand 🙂 so you can throw a cookie or a toy back to him 95% of the time to really shift his focus down to the end of the board and keep him driving to the very end of it.Let me know if that makes sense! He is doing really well so this ‘keep your head down’ is the last piece of the puzzle 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
A couple of ideas for you on this to help maintain the drive all the way across the board:
I think the most important part for him is the predictability of the teeter in terms of what is going to happen, how to earn reinforcement, etc. There was some unpredictability here and that was causing him to think more than we want.
>>I starte with the bang game
He did well on that, but the bang game and the elevator game should look more different than here: you were holding the board which means the elevator is coming, with all of the distinct steps. But instead you dropped it and cued the target position, which can be surprising (and cause dogs to start over-thinking, and slowing down). So try to always have one end propped up and no hands on the board for the bang game (hold him next to you) – versus if your hand is on the board, always do the elevator game. It makes it incredibly predictable which is good!
>> then did the crazy elevator game,
You can add a little more speed into it but not getting as far ahead, letting it drop more and then catching it – it is possible that being there too soon and already holding it is causing him to decelerate a little early? Especially is food rewards are not the main thing right now 🙂
>> then the full teeter. Still not extremly driving to the end but it was, okay. I’m guessing with the arousal of a trial environment it will get faster???>>
>>I tried to get his arousal up by doing a little mini course and well, that made things worse. He stopped in the middle of the teeter.
Yes, more arousal will get more speed, but I also think being more predictable will get it. When he stopped in the middle at 1:05, I don’t think it was because there was more arousal – I think it was because you were sooooo far away and behind him. Note how he drives onto the teeter then stops and looks for you. His frame of reference at this stage is you being ahead and close, so those were two big changes that were too big (Stark does not like changes on the teeter LOL!!!).
So in the interest of gradually adding in those changes, you can be a little lateral (a couple of feet) but ahead. And separately, be very close and behind (like doing the rear crosses from a wing wrap) – doing that from a tunnel is hard because he can’t see you til he hesitates and says “where did da momma go??” And try to add only one variable at a time so it is all gradually introduced.
>> I had a couple of pieces of chicken left so I ended with a crazy elevator game with chicken and then a quick release.>>
Perfect!
You can also continually work the One Hit Wonder concept at all stages of teetering. When he is starving for his dinner, do one rep of tunnel to teeter and his full dinner will be the reward. That really keeps the teeter high in value!
>>So, I am wondering…… with my paps, I put a spoon/measuring cup on the end of the teeter and they got rewarded for running to the end and driving down while I was away from the teeter. I am thinking this may not be a bad idea for Stark.>>
If his 2020 target still visible there? If not, it is fine to put it back in because it will really help him drive forward.
It is possible that the spoon attached to the board will help, but it also would need to be in the right spot to be able to get the 2o2o position after it lands – so you can play with a longer spoon or something that he might be able to reach when he is on the board and still step into 2o2o. Introduce it in the bang game with a tiny bit of tip so he is not surprised.
The other thing I think will help is a high value reward target placed about 4 or 5 feet from the end of the board, to serve both as a focal point and a reward. So his disc or a Manners Minder or something can be out there. And when he hits his 2o2o position, you can release to it (regardless of where you are). That can help maintain drive to the end of the board and also help him NOT feel the need to look for you as he is doing the teeter (looking for you slows him down). As with everything else, introduce it in the bang game so he knows the concept before adding the full teeter.
>>We are doing a teeter tour this Thursday to Paige’s house and I need to set a game plan for Stark. I only rented the ring for 30 minutes. I don’t need all that time to do his teeter.>>
Let his response guide the way, and it is fine if he does not go across the full teeter yet. All games should have a target visible (or if you try the reward out ahead, a target AND the reward out ahead. Start with the bang game with a target, do a couple of reps. Then take a break, and assess. If he is concerned? Come back to another rep – lower the tip and increase the value. If he is happy and likes it? Try some regular elevator game reps. Then take a break and assess when he is concerned or if he is fine.
The goal is to stop asking for teeters 50% SOONER than you are tempted to do so. Tempted to do 10 reps? Cool…. force yourself to stop at 5. Teeter tours are the ultimate in human self-control because nothing good comes from doing too many. You can spend the rest of the time doing weaves and other stuff 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>We did a dusk session split into two mini sessions.
He started off really well here, definitely a better time of day (in terms of temperature) for him – although by the last 2 reps, he was toast. To really encourage the speed and striding, you will probably have to limit to 3 or 4 reps total when it is hot out – he needs a lot of “oomph” to get the striding, and he does not have that when he gets hot. So the sessions can be dramatically shorter but the quality will be dramatically higher in terms of striding.
2 other questions, since he struggles to stay balanced and often criss-crosses his front feet: how often do you do low cavalettis (and circular cavaettis) and sideways walking? And, have you ever done zig zag grids with him? Those can all help him bend better without crossing his front feet over.
>> I have the tug toy and the MM placed.
I think it worked well! Have the MM as far away as possible so that he doesn’t decelerate towards the end of the poles to get to it. You can also start him from a tunnel to get more ‘giddy up’ on the way to the poles without you having to start near him or start him from a stay (stays are giddy-up-reducers in this scenario).
>>For the second session, we were having some handler mounting issues. Not sure why that popped up today, but since YouTube feels the need to ask me if my videos are safe for kids, I edited it out. Plus it’s just not a great look for me.>>
LOL!!! He might have been over-stimulated and also a little mentally depleted at that time of day.
>>I opened poles 8-11. He’s still trying to sort striding out. I’m hoping once I start putting weaves in full sequences he will have more momentum. I’m not getting much out of him yet. I get he’s being thoughtful but I feel there’s a lack of enthusiasm.>>
I think having the last few poles a little more opened up helped to raise the success rate, which is going to be a big contributor towards more speed. I don’t think he is lacking in enthusiasm… I think he is lacking in understanding of how to push from his rear and split his front feet while staying balanced. The ‘staying balanced’ is where he is having the most trouble: he is striding a few poles then falls out of balance then criss crosses his front feet and then regains balance. So striding games away from the poles (see above) as well as core and plyometric work will really help.
>>One thing that was an issue prior to starting this class was drive by if he had momentum. What would be the best way to handle running past the poles should the issue return?>>
Add in starting from a tunnel at this stage, I think he is ready for that (but bear in mind that more running = more heat = fewer reps to keep him cool). And if he fails once, I call back, send him back through the tunnel, start again. And if he fails twice, I open up the poles a little bit to where he can be successful, then try again with speed. I don’t want to take the speed out in favor of tighter poles because it is really important that the dogs learn to get the poles with a lot of speeeeed 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> It’s a constant struggle for us because we live in the south. He loses motivation when he gets hot. In agility he can stay level headed, but herding in the summer, he loses his brain.>>
This is pretty common with Border Collies… you can have a baby pool right near wherever you are working (or a hose) and then after every rep, do a pool or hose moment. It might make the training session a little less efficient but it will be more effective, overall, because he can stay cooler 🙂
Hi! He did really well on these, they are super hard!
He is doing a great job of keeping his head forward while weaving. When he was weaving towards the tunnel he was really strong – my guess is that the tunnel provided a focal point going that direction and there was not a focal point going the other direction. So when he is moving the other way, you can start by having a jump or tunnel as the focal point (and break it down like you did) and then eventually fade the focal points in each direction for the times when there will be nothing visible straight ahead.The only other suggestion is when you are cuing the weaves on your left side – let him get past you to make the entry. There were a couple of reps where you were moving too soon so he didn’t quite read it. When you had a moment of letting him get past you, he was able to get it really nicely 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHere is more about the lap turn and the tandem turn:
https://agility-u.com/lesson/handling-game-rocking-horse-turn-aways-2/
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>> Last week you told me not to point so much; this week you’re telling me to point more! Which one is it?! >>
Sorry for any confusion! On sends, you can totally use your arm and leg to indicate where you want her to go (and these lateral lead outs involve a send to the jump). The difference is that when she is behind you, you will want to send with connection: that means your arm is low, you and kinda rotated to face her, and she can see your face (connection). the ‘no pointing’ thing is when we disconnect from the dogs when they are behind us and point forward ahead of them: when we do that, the dogs only see our backs (no connection) so they lose the line and are not sure of whether they should cut behind us or stay on the line. So the ‘swoosh’ of the lateral sends are more connected and rotated back to the dog and not pointing ahead.
let me know if that makes more sense or if I need more coffee 🙂
>> This is a good reminder for me. There is a tendency for me to want to get a lot done because of the limited availability of using space/other people’s yards. One thing to mention here is that the videos are often pared down, cutting out a lot of the down time, and in some cases there are 5-10 minutes between tries. Is that a long enough time or should I be letting more time elapse?
Depending on the skill, usually 5-10 minutes is plenty of a break. So it can be 2 minutes on for training, then 5-10 minutes off. And the break time gives me a moment to figure out what I liked about the session and what I did not like and want to change. That will work for sessions where there is not a lot of jumping or weaving or contacts or heavy brain work.
For training work that’s physically and mentally harder (weaves, real jumping, teeter, a-frame or dealing with triggers) that can really only be done in one short session or every couple of days. That way the dog’s brain and body don’t get overworked. it does take longer for us to get those things trained because we have to limit training time, but that is fine 🙂
>> Yes, so many words, and so many things to keep track of! I could barely keep in mind what the course was that I was supposed to be doing.>>
I feel that pain LOL!!! It gets easier as you get used to it all, and the practice like you did here will really help!!
>> I didn’t get to the ones with like 11 steps. How am I supposed to remember all of that?
Ha! I am not going to lie: it is hard! But it will actually feel easier when she is on real courses because she will have to jump: you will have hang time while she is jumping and more yardage, so there is more time to do things like think and breathe 🙂
>>I did walk the course like 10 times before I tried it with Ria so that definitely helped!
Good for you!!!! Walking the course is a huge part of it.
>> The owner of Wholistic Hound came through at one point and commented on how many verbals I was using, that I was repeating them for a single behavior,
They are actually not cuing a single behavior, they are cuing a sequence of behaviors (which involves leaving you, committing to the wing, turning, driving back, and all of the physical coordination required to do it. So a wrap verbal on a wing is a far more complex series of events than, say, a sit or a down.
There are a few more reasons why we repeat the cue, with the most important ones being to cover our bases with the timing (otherwise you will have to deliver it once, and perfectly on time: which is impossible for all of us to do consistently), to break through the arousal of running the course so the dog can process the verbal, and to match the ‘energy’ of the behavior and help propel or collect the stride.
>>and wondering if that was causing Ria confusion/over-excitement.>>
I don’t think the verbals were causing any issues. The connection and teaching her to have more value for wing commitment will totally help sort out her questions. For example, remember how a few weeks ago she was having a little trouble with tunnel commitment? You have really added value to that and now she looks great 🙂
>> When you do the tandem turns when she has to come into you then turn away on the wing, you can pretend there is a cookie in your hand (or you can actually have a cookie in your hand LOL!) and draw her in then turn her away with big hand motions. Those hand cues will be pretty slow so she can read them clearly as they are pretty hard.
>>>Hmmm…I guess I’m not sure which turns these are and/or what you mean. It’s probably perfectly clear to a more experienced handler, but I don’t quite understand.
On the wing that was closest to the camera here, when she had to come in next to you then turn away to go around the wing – that is a tandem turn. You can also see them in the turn aways games. They are a pretty complex move because they are not natural for the dog to do, so we have to be more careful to cue them (dogs like to turn towards us, not away). I will go grab the links for the specifics and then it will make more sense 🙂
>> It’s probably perfectly clear to a more experienced handler>>
The name is clearer to more experienced folks, but the move is still really hard 🙂
I will be right back with the links to more of the tandem turns!
T
Wow, that looked GREAT! Lovely timing here. The only bad news is that she picked up even more speed so you will end up having to move faster when you are back to running LOL! That is actually good news too haha!!!
You can also work the tandem turns where you are turning her away while you are moving forward/parallel to the line. I think those can be done at a walk while your foot is recovering. And this is also a great opportunity to add some more distance to race tracks and tunnel sends – you can basically hang out in the middle, moving at a walk, and see if you can get her to commit to the wings and tunnels (and throw the rewards :)) She is a speedster so distance will be very helpful!
Great job here!
TracyHi! She is definitely making progress! But she still has questions about the new position. I do think she likes it a lot better than the down, though!
One thing that will help is if the target is closer – put it on the 2nd brick past the end of the board here. It was 4 or 5 bricks away from the end, which encourages her stretching way forward, which translates into stepping off the board with her back feet. Have it closer so her front feet are just off the end of the board will help her be more anchored into position and stay on the board better.
She was doing a great job staying on the board, especially towards the end of the video. Before moving the targeting to the teeter, I want it to be more independent of your body motion. I think by starting with her here and putting the reward on early, it was a good start but we need to fade it out so your body language is uninvolved with the behavior.
So while still on the plank, start a little further back from the end and send her to the target position while you stand completely still. You can move forward to reward after she has hit position and is holding it. Driving ahead of you while you don’t move will also emphasize her looking forward to the target, so we are hitting 2 things by having you take out all of your motion.
The other thing to add is having her wait on the plank, you move away from the board and stand still laterally or way out ahead… and cue the hit it cue so she can move into target position while you are stationary out away from the board. That also creates independent understanding while taking any dependence on your body position out of the picture.
That might take one session or a few sessions (this particular training has really no concussion on the dog’s body so we can do lots of short sessions). And then you can add motion back to it if she has a really high success rate.
The good news is that as soon as the behavior is “ready”, it will be easy to put on the teeter because she is confident on the teeter and has seen the other games. So I am not in a rush to put it on the teeter until it is fabulous on the plank 🙂
>> When is the last day for posting videos? – I am hoping I can continue these games in the next Max Pup course>>
The last day here is May 31. The next class for her is CAMP. You did the next MaxPup class already, back in December (putting it together). I will check to see what you have registered for, and if you haven’t registered yet – it should be CAMP 🙂 If you already registered for the next MaxPup, I can switch things over.
Nice work here! Let me know if the targeting ideas make sense!
TracyGood morning!
>> I wasn’t sure if you meant for her to get rewarded after the 6th pole for all of the reps or not – so I started off rewarding after the 6th, then tried having her weave the 2nd set before rewarding. >>
Ideally, we would reward the first couple of sets after pole 6 and then reward after pole 12, so what you did here was correct. The visual distraction of poles 7-12 was hard for her, and I think the frisbee might have been too exciting (especially in that first session). She was sorting it out by the end of the 2nd video here, but you can try a lower value toy on the next session (because the frisbee is exciting and also means run run run LOL!) or even meatballs. I think she will figure out pretty quickly, then you can move the bases closer together. Each time the bases go closer together, I think the first session should use the less stimulating reward so she doesn’t try to rush to get it – then when she is successful, the frisbee can come back out 🙂
>> I am wondering when this course finishes
This one wraps up on May 31 🙂
Nice work here!
Tracy
