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Oops, I remember reading it but must have only replied in my head… sorry!!!
>>I had been focusing on 2o2o but yesterday I left the criteria lax in an effort to just have fun.
That is fine! He definitely was enjoying it 🙂
>>I am a little concerned of 2o2o and wondering if I should do 4 on? Last I weighed him he was 17 or 18 pounds. Can’t remember.>>
His weight is fine – I figure by the time he is fully adult, he will be around the same weight as Export (18-19lbs) and Karen Holik’s Sizzle (a Sheltie who won all the things many times over). I bring up these 2 dogs because Karen’s Sizzle had a truly amazing 2o2o and it was Sizzle’s teeter performance that inspired my training of Export’s 2o2o performance. Those two dogs had the fastest/best teeters around for their careers, and the teeter performance criteria held up for over a decade. So his weight is no problem, and I can confidently say that with first hand knowledge.
Elektra will be doing a 4on because she is maybe 14 lbs, a little too light for 2o2o.
Now – if you do 4on or 2o2o, that will be up to you. When Hot Sauce was training (same height as Stark but heavier because she has a lot of terrier in her), I fully investigated why so many people were moving to a 4on performance with the bigger dogs, as is the trend lately- and there is no good answer for it. From what I found
* people thought it was ‘safer’ (but that is not the case when a 2o2o is properly trained)* people thought the dog would get flung off the board in a 2o2o (not true if it is properly trained, in fact a 2o2o provides MORE control of the board)
* people thought it was easier to train (this is possible – but the downside is that the criteria slips because there is no really exact “do this” thing and so the dog stops short of the end of the board – which is slower – or leaps as the board hits
* it is faster to do 4on – this is NOT true in terms of getting to the end of the board and getting the board to the ground faster if both are properly trained. Simple physics: the more weight you can get closer to the end of the board, the faster the board drops. What might be faster is ripping the dog off the board when “criteria” is hit, such as in a national finals or something. But then with a 4on, it because very difficult to maintain driving to the end of the board because the dog start to stop short. With a 2o2o, drive to the end of the board is easy to maintain because criteria is very clear.
With that in mind, though, with the smaller dogs we have to do a 4on: so I add another layer of criteria so they drive to the end of the board more reliably. That is what seems to work the best for speed and accuracy although it will not be as fast as the 2o2o if they were physically large enough to do it.
But to get the great 2o2o, there are more layers of training than most people do 🙂
So it is a ‘pick your poison’ situation – to get a great teeter performance, there are many layers – so pick which one appeals to you and go with it.
As an aside: I was originally going to train a 4on with Hot Sauce so I could see what everyone was all excited about with that end position. Hot Sauce, on the other hand, thought it was stupid and decided to only offer a 2o2o – my guess is she had better control of the board that way and also she had a MUCH clearer idea of where to be.So you get to decide LOL!!!
>>I noticed that the other Pizza’s were doing 4 on.
I haven’t watched the others – not sure if Beetle is on a teeter yet and also I am not sure of how big they are. And, not sure they have obsessed on how each behavior is different or what layers of criteria to add. It is easy peasy to train a 4on… but then even the agility ‘greats’ are constantly re-training it after competition starts.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! You can have him release over it after getting the reward for stopping at the end. I think he would be fine to go over it, but let me know if he feels otherwise. And HAPPY DANCE! for the big breakthrough!!! Yay!!!!
Tracy
Hi! I replied in the other post but will reply here too, in case anyone else reading this is having the same issue. We haven’t heard of this happening before, even with posts with hundreds of replies… so if anyone else is experiencing this, let me know!
And let me know what browser(s) and device(s) you are seeing this on. And is the bump out happening after you hit ‘submit’?
You can try the good ol’ log out, clear cache, log in and see if that helps. And if you can catch a screenshot of what you see when it happens, please send it to support@agility-u.com
Those are the questions that the tech guru will be asking me, so I figure I will ask them in advance LOL!
Tracy
Thanks!
TracyHi! He is doing really nicely here! I like the set up, with the non-skid mat under the perch! And yes, he was really starting to use those back feets independently! This is a good place to keep working this skill and get more precision – no real need to change much yet, because his growth will change the picture. When he is fully grown, we can change things to add challenge. One suggestion to help him out at the beginning of each session: You can feed feed feed feed (rapid treats but no clicks) to get him settled with his front feet on the perch right at the start of each session. Basically we are saying: get on with your front feet and don’t offer any more front foot movement (he was offering different stuff – probably partially because offering is fun and partially because this is a new perch). Then the ‘stoppage of the feedage’ becomes the cue to offer back foot movement or to wait for you to cue it with your motion. That rapid cookie moment will also help generalize it to different perch thingies and it is a good signal to help the pup understand that we want him to hold that position for now (rather continuing to offer, which is what we generally expect after 1 treat). Let me know if that makes sense.
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>. I am having a lot of trouble with posting, and I think it has to do with the number of posts in this thread that have to load every time the browser refreshes. >>>
Hmmm, that is odd – it might be a cache issue but it shouldn’t be because we have had threads with hundreds of posts in other classes and haven’t hear of any issues. I will pass it along to the tech guru and see what he says (because my tech knowledge ends with “hmmm, that is odd” :)) I know his first question will be asking if you were able to log out then back in and still have the same issues, and also if you could send a screen shot of what happens when you run into the issue (as well as which browser(s) and device(s) it is happening on.
>>OK if I make a new “part 2” thread?>>
Absolutely!
>>Can’t believe how wrong my feet were yesterday! It felt wrong in the moment, but I was worrying about WM and the MM too much to notice, I guess.>>
That is what I figured was happening – trying to make the target hand clear without becoming pretzel 🙂
On the video – he is doing well finding the threadle! The hand cue is obvious (the little shake shake helps 🙂 Feet looked good! and he liked the MM. We can chalk up the previous MM stuff for being too close to the dog walk.
Two little tweaks: For now, keep him in the easier angles (slice angles) so that he is not almost wrong then fix it – that was happening on the first part and less so on the 2nd part when you changed sides,And (and this is the hard one for all of us): don’t move, don’t release position – until he arrives at the MM. The only movement is your MM remote trigger finger LOL! Staying perfectly stationary (for now) is so that he learns the default drive to the jump after coming in for the threadle without you needing to close your shoulders forward at all or point to the bar. And when we do add movement – you will be able to just leave the threadle and he will commit without you needing to cue it (it is a thing of beauty when it happens :))
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>>because my heavier, powerful dogs end up moving them on my grass field when they push off. I have tried many, many mats and many, many arts and crafts combinations.
I did a trip to Lowe’s last year and got industrial mats with non-skid grips on the bottom for this and for osme flyball uses – let me see if I can see if they are marked as to what they are. They have been perfect for the bigger dogs and also on the a-frame.
>>which today passed the test with both Phyzz and WM. It is two scratchy door mats sandwiched around a heavy dense rubber mat. The scratchy surface grips the grass and gives good traction to the dogs. Bonus, in that I have another of these mats attached to the down side of my DW currently for Phyzz’s training. So, the tactile feel will be the same.>>
Clever!! And a scratchy surface is likely a different depth visual, which will help.
>>No video, but we also did some toy races through the tunnel (WM, not me!) today while just goofing around. And he thought that was pretty awesome too!>>
Wheeee! More motion is AWESOME and it is especially cool that he didn’t lose his head 🙂
He did really well here on this mat!!! There were maybe 2 clicks that I thought were maybe not clickable (:42 and 1:02) but also, it is harder to see on this video angle and you were right there. The rest were all really strong (except the one non-click, which was correct to not click). I *think* these were front foot clicks (again, hard to see it perfectly, you had a better video) so you can shift to back feet clicks (a bigger mat will make it easier). Now if he hits with front feet – reward. If he hits with BACK feet: party like it is 1999. Jackpot!
And you can also add some angles: if he was running back and forth from noon to 6pm here with the mat at the center of the clock, you can start him at 11 or 1, or 5 or 7… then working your way around to harder angles gradually. It might take several sessions but that is fine because he is still growing and those feet are in a different place every time he wakes up 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi! Thanks for re-posting it!
She is doing a great job committing on these, good girl! She is better when she is going to her left and a little less sure going to her right, but she did it. Yay! So now – spread the wings further apart to add challenge.
And set up the sends a little differently so you can start adding more motion. You were sending sideways here and she was great, so you can add challenge now: face the wing you are sending her to and use your dog-side arm & leg to send, then do a FC and connect – and on the new side, send to the next wing with your dog-side arm and leg. When she can do that, you can add more distance and start walking/jogging as you do those! The goal is that you will be able to work up to a pretty big distance and running. Wheeeee!
Great job!
TracyAh! Thankful to hear that the conformation folks had the answers – I am not surprised though LOL! I bet some folks have seen it all 🙂
And yes, the little guy has a lot of new experiences ahead (like cameras rolling while he trains :)) but he will figure it out 🙂 Keep me posted!
T
Hi!
>>Yea I have a treat trainer. Hmmm…how would I use that with the serp?? Where do I put it?>>
The treat n train thing would be out past your reward hand, so she turns away to get it. I don’t think I used it in the original videos but I did use it in the concept transfer video when it goes on the jump (and on the threadle video :))
>>Retrieves. Yes Ruby has not much of a recall outside. She acts like she is deaf sometimes. Usually when she is out there by herself and she is eating rabbit poop or now poopcilles or something. If she goes out with the other dogs and she is hungry, like feeding time, she will…run back in with them. So that’s going pretty good. Okay, do the “go for a run” and keep sending her till she gets bored. (sometimes I do have to be careful if it is icy out) But I will do this. And then just once in awhile do a recall and party. Got it. Otherwise just tell her to go for a run. Got it. >>
And it is also perfectly fine to use the long line to reel her in when weather is bad or when you don’t feel like standing out there to keep letting her go for a run. It is COLD out! LOL!
T
Hi!
>> great day in America, right?!>>
Oh yes, what a day! Onwards to a good 2021, right?
On your turn away video – ah yes, you had to call pretty early to get the turns. When you called him as he was exiting, things went pretty well! Ideally you would call him before he entered the tunnel to get him turned before he exited and that will make it even easier.
The lap and tandem from the stay on the tunnel exit looked great, at the beginning and also when you revisited them later. Motion is the harder part:
When you added the tunnel – things got harder for sure 🙂
Two ideas for you:
On the lap turn – this is the one cue where I think it is better to bend over (normally we want to be a little more upright). To help get his attention – bend towards him and extend the cue arm (and the magic cookie hand) totally towards his nose locking your elbow, as if putting a cookie into his mouth (at mouth-level).That should make it really easy for him to drive into you on those!On th tandem turn – add a little more motion on the parallel line so he is reading these in motion. I would say walking at first with a really obvious arm cue (maybe both arms LOL!) He was getting it with you standing still, but these will be done in motion 99% of the time so you can add the motion now (feel free to be as far as needed from the jump to get his focus on your hands).
The foot targeting looks really good! I have the easy task of watching video and staring at the mat – and I thought almost all of your click/no click choices were really good. There was one that I thought was “just ok” (1:09, I think). You sometimes tended to click front feet, so try to wait for rear feet. The good news is that he was doing a great job with his rear feet! You can reinforce good hits but go wild for GREAT hits with the split rear feet 🙂 I like the run cue and I also like how he was galloping AND accurate. Very cool! And I have a game coming tomorrow for this which will be useful for Katarina’s class 🙂
Great job here!
TracyHi! That makes sense, he is probably not all that solid with the table yet and I don’t think we have really added any stop behaviors into sequences – so stopping on the table was a definite WTF moment LOL! He was a good boy and I know he will learn that the table is only a little stupid 🙂
T
Hi! Totally makes sense 🙂 You might have to pick the position for him. Which seems easier for him: the stand or the sit? I find that most dogs do best with a move into a specific position, like a sit or down.
T
Hi!
>>I think the trigger for the running off was noise on the other side of the wall- either people talking or walking by. That tends to be the issue.>>
It is good to know the triggers! It makes it easier to work through them: part of the time you make sure he does not have access to rehearse the behavior, and the other part of th time you are desensitizing/counterconditioning the triggers.
He looked good on the night session with the tunnel!! Good job building the skills up!! My only real suggestion is to use your left and rght verbals sooner – when he is approx 3 feet or more from the tunnel entry, start using them so he hears them before he goes in. That will get the turns tighter on the exit: he was wide but that was only because the turn verbals and physical cues were a little late. I know it was tricky to make sure he was committed, but that looks really good here! So you can add the verbal with less motion and then build the motion back in.
In the last session of this game, he had a lot of trouble turning to his left and he looks lovely here. So I am guess the turning to his right was probably a lighting issue, especially since it was better during the day.
On the 2nd tunnel & wing video: He had a little trouble on the very first one turning to his left. I don’t think it was a left or right turn issue, I think it was more of a turn-towards-the-fence issue: it looks like he started to do a bit of fence running when he was excited and getting started. But gold star to him for coming back and getting into focus! THat is good progress! You stayed nice and chill, and that really helped too 🙂 And also, on this clip, his right turn to the tunnel looked great. So while it is nice that his sequencing is going well, I am most excited that you are turnig the corner in getting the focus even when there are triggers!
He was definitely excitd about the teeter game but in a really good way! He did not lose himself to arousal and even when the reps were not perfect (his butt fell off a little haha) his first response in that moment was to try to fix it and get back on. That is exciting progress!! You can help him not swing off by moving with him to get closer to the board. When you hung back and sent him, he was hitting position nicely but then curling towards you. I don’t think he fully knows how to hold his butt there yet with you laterally away, so you can move in closer on these. I think you can also raise the board a little!! Add some challenge with more height! He looks ready.
The crate tunnel discrim looks really great, especially for a first session. When he makes a mistake, you can tell him he is a good boy and call him back (and he can have a treat for coming back :)) – it is kind of a ‘good boy nice try come here’ moment, all smiley 🙂 He didn’t seem to stress out on the mistake though, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders – unless you edited out a bigger reaction LOL!
I think you were fine in your position and set up the session well. All of the dogs have one thing that is slightly higher value – in his case, it was the tunnel. It might also be that you were starting both cues with “Go”, as in “go tunnel” and “go to bed” – so it sounded really similar on those first 2 reps. Try just “tunnel” and “bed” and see if that helps him.
Great job on these! He was a good boy and you are doing a great job setting him up for success 🙂
Tracy
Hi! Obsessing and writing it all down is good 🙂 Then, pick the ones you think will be most important and more useful right this very moment – and focus on those. For example: an independent backside push is probably more important and useful than a jump threadle or a threadle rear cross wrap. Jump threadles and threadle rear cross wraps are very fun to train… but not all that useful LOL!!! But a tunnel threadle is VERY useful. Let me know if that makes sense! Eventually, we can all have a zillion verbals but the trick is in adding them in gradually so we don’t get overwhelmed and also so we don’t forget them 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
He did well figuring this out here! I think he has a LOT of value on wrapping a wing (and probably multi-wraps too?) so when you were not moving and just using verbals, the strength of the wing over-powered the tunnels. So even as he started to go towards the tunnel, the wing was almost magnetic in pulling him in and that is why he would do that quick spin before going in. You can also have the wing a little closer to the tunnel, so the tunnel is a little easier to get to and a little more visible (making the wing less tempting).
>> Spent some time with just tunnel sends. Wondering if my restraining him at the start had me leaning down to much putting pressure and causing the spin…or was it that he just didn’t know what the tunnel was.
I don’t think it was the restraining or leaning – but you can test the theory by starting him from a stay.
I think you can totally help him with one step to the tunnel, even a little one: as small of a motion as you need to get him to go into it without the spin. And then you can fade that out pretty quickly. He was already figuring it out really nicely! And then since we want a little more tunnel value, throw in a wrap here and there but focus mainly on the tunnel like you did on this clip 🙂 It will balance out pretty quickly!
Nice start here!! Keep me posted on how he does!
Tracy
