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Hi! Nice work on this, it is going really well!!
>>Moved to the kitchen. Cap started sliding on the laminate floor so I put a yoga mat platform underneath it.
That was a smart move – as this game picks up speed, he will need the grippy surface.
>> In the middle he started getting pretty mouthy in his excitement so I paused a bit and let him settle.
You were doing a bit of hand play around his face, ‘smack da baby’, on the ready game there, which will generally elicit that mouthy response. So, you can do the ready dance but your hand more near your belly and less around his cheeks, and I don’t think he will be mouthy.
>>– Should I be standing up more when I engage him in the ready game? (he seems to have no problems with me leaning down to him though)
Yes, definitely stand up more – partially because it will be easier to add teh next steps (coming on Saturday :)) and partially because it will prevent the mouthiness (hands further from his choppers haha). You can use a little upper body tension to build anticipation without bending as much.
Interestingly, with food involved, the leaning over was not an issue as much as with the toy (also, you were inside which is more comfy).
>>– What kind of distance should I be working towards?
For now, about 6 feet away is all we need. This looked good, and he was doing a great job with his hits!!
>>– Are my sideways and backwards movements too exaggerated or is that good for this stage?
I think they look great! Very crisp and clear, and he did really well 🙂 Great job on this!
THi!
>>What do you make of this? I tossed the whole long toy so he wouldn’t grab the part 2ft away and he just continued to stare at it and then lay down…twice. Distance too far maybe? So I did a recall to the toy to get him moving more and then he does a deliberate send out to the toy. I cropped out some of the extended playing between the tosses and also the warm up game where he was tugging well…right before he decided to stare at the toy and lie down.
It looks like it might have been too much pressure, in terms of the restraint plus bending over plus being outside, plus you were not moving – and the toy has value but not enough yet to offset the pressure. When you got him moving on the recall, the excitement level came up so he did engage, but he still didn’t engage with the same excitement as he does when chasing you.
So, you can just sit on the ground and throw the toy around – no real driving ahead goal, but mainly to just get him enjoying the toy time outside with the big toy, and with less body pressure.
That will build the value of the ‘get it’ of the toy in different places, and then we can layer in the restraint and standing up with the toy later on. He might find the pressure and environment perfectly fine with a giant cookie or food toy, so you can totally build the skills separately: drive ahead to food and drive ahead to toy. I always work both with my pups and I also always find that one skill is stronger than the other early in the training process.I also do a lot of latent learning on these games: give the dogs 2 or 3 days off before repeating the games, so their puppy brains can wire it all in, and then it is fine 🙂 So you might find that if you try it again on Friday or Saturday, he will find it to be easy peasy 🙂
Let me know what you think!
T
Hi!
Doing it from the stay worked nicely and he did like the tugging between reps 🙂
One thing that I think might help: think of the toy across the body as part of the cue, not as the reward. This will make the reconnection earlier and get the side change earlier. You were blinding, then showing dog-side arm then when he changed sides, you were presenting the toy across your body. But that made the reconnection late, so he had a few questions (especially on the 2nd one, as you noted). So – don’t wait to see him change sides before presenting the toy across the body – use that toy across as the cue to get him to change sides. It works because it pushes the dog-side arm back and away to unveil the connection (not because the toy is there :))>>For comparison, I have some drive to handler videos in a thread from July 12 (5pm-ish)
I will go look, I might have missed them when originally posted? If they were added in later, the software doesn’t tell me.
Nice work on these blinds!!
T
Ah! Small world! Cheese is in my flyball region. I hope to meet him… someday… LOL! Dog sports are a long ways off at this point.
And scruffy dogs are the BEST dogs (yes, I am biased haha)
Sounds perfect! Little itty bitty games in the backyard will help, I am sure he will be able to play the games out there very soon 🙂
T
Hi!
Wilson: run 1:Very nice opening in terms of connection and handling choices!! So fun to see you going for the blinds 🙂 especially 8-9!
You do run quietly with Wilson, which is fine sometimes but also he does need to know where he is going after tunnels, for example: from 2-3 he really had to catch himself on 3 so you should use a name call there.The error on the backside at 11 (:41) is a training question from Wilson. You did a great send then ran forward to your next position, so you were on the takeoff side when he was and you were looking towards the blind cross. The handling was spot on! But he is probably used to you helping him a lot more and it seems that he doesn’t have a default “take the jump’ on backsides when you takeoff. So we can train that so you can handle the way you wanted to: on a low bar, push to the backside like you did here, and takeoff *without helping him take the bar* but as you takeoff, toss a reward in behind you. That will help him learn to look for the bar and not chase you – and then when he begins to default to it, we change the timing of the reward until after he takes it as a default when you move through.
At 1:03 you were helping even more and he still had a question. He did fune at 1:22… but you stayed there and helped the commitment, which made the blind late and you didn’t get as far ahead as you could have. So, it is a training hole, but easy and fun to fix!I will bug you a little bit on verbals for him – I think tunnel verbals are really important for Wilson.
On the 12 tunnel at 1:28 – the verbal was late so he was wide. It was late at 1:40 also, so you had to threadle him in (and his name is a little too general for that line) and he pulled the bar. You got it on the next rep, but using verbals at the 6 foot info line before he goes in will help smooth out the exit for that all-important first rep (based on how it was built, I suggest a wrap verbal before the tunnel because it was a really tight exit.>> I know I pulled up before the last jump 😬. I was worried about the wall in front of me, which the other ladies convinced me that keeping the bar up was much more important than a wall face plant. 🙄
Haha, well, yes and no LOL!!!! If there is a jump near the wall with insufficient room, just make it a 12” jump. He doesn’t need to do full height on all the jumps!
>>Demi’s first sequence felt like a blur.
Running young dogs always feel like a blur! You were definitely working the connection and it looked good! Now we will get you working the earlier timing – we need the timing to be sooner before the bars go up.
>>I’m struggling with Demi’s verbals in general.
When you tackle a sequence or course, try to pick one or two really important spots or one or two important verbals, and make sure you get those in (rather than trying to get ALL the verbals in). Focus on a couple of super important ones and then it will get easier and easier to add more.
On the run:
Great connection! And you were pushing hard, which si also great! Now, start to trust her more and get the crosses started sooner: the FCs at 3-4 and 7-8 started when she was landing (causing the dropped bar at 4 on the 2nd run)! The BC 9-10 was a little earlier but can still be sooner: when she exits the previous obstacle, trust her, cue the next one and start the cross. She will either get it perfectly or let us know what she needs for more training.
Also, focus on those perfect path running lines: at 7, you were moving backwards so she landed long then had to turn back. On the BC 9-10, you were running to between the uprights of 9 so she didn’t catch the line to 10 til after landing on the first run. She tried to adjust in the air on the 2nd run (3:16) but pulled the bar.
On the RC line at the end – it is great to practice the RCs! You can get on the RC pressure diagonal sooner, almost as sooner as you pass the wing of the 3rd to last jump. You drove her straight til takeoff of the 2nd to last jump (2:38) then cut in, so she read the RC really late (and verbals will help with all of that :)) On the 2nd run at 3:20, you did a great job of setting up the RC line as she approached the 3rd to last jump – but then you stepped away and drove forward til takeoff at 3:21 so she didn’t read it. Set it like you did at 3:20, facing the center of the bar of that 2nd to last jump – then move forward towards the center of the bar there so she can see the RC coming sooner.Wilson: Hard to see exactly why he dropped the bar at 3 on the first rep, I think there was a stop then start with your motion 2-3 so he was not sure how you wanted him to approach it. You were much smoother on the 2nd rep and he kept it up!
On the 2nd rep – one thing to consider is NOT always jumping him at 24 on these courses… he read the lines but was struggling with the jumping effort. I am a big advocate for working courses on lower bars to save the dog’s body.
Timing of the FC 6-7 at 3:57 was really good! Work the perfect path – try to be moving towards 7 and not out past 6 – he knew a turn was coming but went towards you so landed heavy and had to turn after landing.
LOVED LOVED LOVED your FC 7-8 at 3:59: gorgeous timing, connection and line. YAY!!
It looks like you started your push cue right before he entered the tunnel #8 at 4:03, so he was able to read the turn on the exit rather than continue straight. That was an effective use of verbals!
On the serpentine line: he is reading it really well – try to stay much closer to the line the whole time, you were pulling back and forth so it was harder for him to read the next section, going into the FC and then to the tunnel at the end, creating some zig zags there.
Demi read the opening line really nicely! As with Wilson, work the perfect path on your crosses – your timing of starting the FC at 6-7 at 4:46 was good bt the running line was pretty wide past 6. She also needs a bit more turn cue on 5 to be able to find 6 (she passed it on that rep). The second rep had a little bit more decel into 5 which set her up to find 6 nicely (yay!) but same thoughts about the line for the FC 6-7: it should be on her perfect path towards 7 rather than heading past 6.
Great FC on 7 at 5:15!
The push verbal on the 8 tunnel at 5:16 and 5:34 was a little late (she was in the tunnel) and also she probably needs a turn verbal on the tunnel exit there: push applies to jump 9, and we needed her to know there was a right turn on the tunnel exit, so a right verbal would be more helpful.You added her name sooner at 5:47 and 6:12 but she probably needed it with less motion in order to be successful – remember that 2-failure rule: if she can’t get it right, twice, you must make it easier to get success (and especially don’t tell her ‘no’ for driving on a line, you will lost smart phone time!)
You did it with less motion on the last 2 reps which really helps, so try to dial back the motion sooner if she fails in there. And the name call definitely helps, and that is a great place to put the ‘right’ verbal in play!So, going back to verbals with Demi – take chunks of the big courses, maybe 6 or 8 obstacle sequences, and isolate them to work the details of the verbals (so you use the directionals and not just her name) as well as the timing and perfect path. The connection has really come together because you really focused on it!! So now we can focus on the timing (that should be the next priority, I think) and then the path and adding more verbals.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>after being drilled on connection…I felt guilty and weird with the purposeful DISconnection. You are messing with my brain!>>
I know, it feels so weird and then when we are connected, it feels so nice! Don’t feel guilty: disconnection allows us to run faster and the dogs really enjoy that, plus it helps us show better info in the harder sections and the dogs appreciate that too.
On the video:
Yes, he was totally looking at you during the straight line reps and that was why he had the zig zag lines. No worries, though: he kept the bars up and found the line, so it will continue to get smoother and smoother.On the backside reps – on the first rep you were a little too close to the entry wing on the send, but the second and third rep (:30 and :38) you were center of the bar and he went beautifully to the backside.
You are going to laugh… you can actually disconnect for LONGER on those backside/serp/bind/german turn moves: you don’t have to reconnect until you are past the exit wing – that will allow you to get up the line faster AND show the correct tunnel entry.
Speaking of correct tunnel entry: At :32 you used the tunnel verbal but your motion did not support it and you disconnected (you were kind of looking at him but your shoulders turned towards the garage and so did you line of motion) so he came off the tunnel entry. When you reconnect, look at him and run more towads the tunnel entry and he wil be able to get on the line to it. You were clearer on the last rep there but you can be more connected to move forward to it for one or two steps more.On the 3rd video: I think all 3 of these reps looked really strong!! You had excellent motion and verbals running up the line, so he had no questions about it (no zig zag) and you were easily at the wing to reconnect and threadle or wrap – he had no questions. NICE!!!!!
>>We did not attempt the 2 that involved full knowledge of a threadle.
You can do the one-jump threadle game and add in moving away as his head turns to the jump bar!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Great job on these!
>>There were a few times when bars came down. I guess if I’m going to handle this way, he will have to get used to it. This is when we would say, “The bar came down because you lost connection.”.
>> Haha, yes! That is the 2019 app: “it was a connection bar, so be sure to be MORE connected” The 2020 app has been updated to: “we can successfully apply disconnection the same way the European handlers do and teach the dogs to have no problem with it” So the dropped bar here and there is part of the learning curve for the dogs, who are used to our connection being a big support all the time. But Enzo did REALLY well with it and didn’t have a lot of jumping questions (a couple, yes, but those will go away).
On the video: It is hard to disconnect! It took you a minute to get into the groove of disconnecting, the first rep was entirely too connected LOL!
Then you got the hang of it and he did just fine going towards the tunnel. He had a harder time on the line that starts with the tunnel – when he was on your right, he seemed to have a slight head tilt in your direction. When he was on your left, he had a jumping error – tried to bounce between the jumps. He actually did it twice: he pulled the rail the first time and on the 2nd time he picked up his hind end more but was off balance (back end higher than shoulders over the bar)The around rep was great in that you saw his commitment then left on both of those reps – he seemed to be able to still be mindful of his jumping (I think we will see the zigzag grids turning out to be helpful on these courses this week!) and also because you were long gone, he had the entire bar to himself, didn’t rush, and landed with power on the next line. Very nice! Plus, you were practically in a different county being very far ahead, which is tremendously useful for both building speed AND handling anything crazy further up the course.
One suggestion on these is to send to the backside slice from no closer to the entry wing than the center of the bar. Ideally, you can send to the entry while you are at the exit wing but starting with your position moving towards center of the bar is fine until he is very comfortable with it. Being further over will make for better exit lines on the more difficult turns.Threadle reps:
I think the “bye bye I am leaving now” distracting him on the first rep at the threadle: you seemed to be really watching til you got the head turn. then appropriately took off. His head came up and he gave you a distinct “wait, what??” moment haha! 2nd rep was great, you did basically the same thing and he was fine with it.
3rd rep was really good – you stayed connected longer than you needed to there with your upper body (1:00) but your feet were sailing up the line perfectly so you still made it across the county line before he landed from the threadle jump 🙂Threadle- blind (I love this move :))
You can be sooner on th first rep of it at 1:08 and the mirror image at 1:16 and 1:25, starting the disconnection into the blind as soon as you see his head turn around the wing to look towards the bar (motion and verbal are supporting the jump, so you don’t have to connect). You were maintaining connection until takeoff, making the blind a little late so the turn was a little wide. But even the slightly wider turns were good and you were in a great position – the timing of the blind is the agility version of a ‘trust fall’: you will have to trust his commitment on his head turn, so the blind is basically finished before takeoff 🙂 (BTW, when we time it, this move is a winning move because it is SO tight and fast in and out of it, I really love it :))Great job on the straight line from the tunnel to the threadle – you had a REALLY clear reconnection moment and that helped get him back into handler focus for the wing threadle. Remember to use your “go” or ‘jump’ verbal on the line after the tunnel, you got a little quiet. the Timing on the first rep was better (earlier) than the 2nd rep, so stick with the 1st rep timing: he knew before takeoff for the 2nd jump that he was threadling on that first rep and on the 2nd rep, he knew when he was over the bar.
I loved the straight line to the wrap reps! You were able to do the Usain Bolt sprint to get up to the wing to set the wrap, and he did really well reading all of it! The clear reconnection helps too. As with the previous reps, remember the Go or Jump verbals on the line after the tunnel, just to support the line when you disconnect.Great job, let me know what you think!
TracyHowdy! I am glad you are having fun! And of course we will tweak things to make it easy on your knee 🙂
The skills stuff here is helping us identify the little details of how to handle Mochi! So fun!Backside wraps – this actually fits nicely with the Pack 3 concept of the dog’s head giving us permission to do the next thing. The good reps and the not as good reps here were all about your connection – I would say that all of the reps on your right had very strong, clear connection directly to her eyes and very little looking forward. On your left, things were different and she is too green to cover you – when she was on your left, note the difference in connection on the first rep and :29 (and couple at the end, versus reps 2 and 3 then again at :24 – on the successful reps, you established the strong connection at landing of 1 to get her on the side you wanted, thn maintained it until she was definitely heading to the backside. On the reps where she went straight, you never looked at her directly to establish the side, so she never considered coming to the side you wanted. You might have been able to see her but that is not the same as being connected until her head turns the right way, if that makes sense? It is possible that being on your left side is indeed harder for her, so yes, a stronger connection would be needed there. It is also possible that you are more comfy with her on your right, so the clear connection is more natural. But to even it out, make the very strong connection to her eyes until you see her look at the backside, then you might be able to soften it a little and look ahead.
2nd video – straight line disconnections: isn’t it nice to have permission to disconnect LOL!! You can disconnect more – happily, you have a habit of connection so on those spots you will have to train yourself to look ahead even more 🙂 She did a great job!!!
3rd video – straight line disconnection out of the tunnel:
You are actually a little too connected here LOL!!!!! And remember to use your loud verbals (it was a little quiet) – the verbals are critical in times of deliberate disconnection 🙂>>She did OK with the first jump out of the tunnel, but would then hit #3. >>
That is a normal spot where fast dogs would drop the bars – great proofing moment! You can put that bar really low to be able to reward it, then gradually work it back up, with big rewards for not touching it.
4th video:
>>And the last video is a hot mess. >
Ha! It was not at all a hot mess – it might have had 3 distinct elements that were difficult, though!2 things that we can train that will fix the difficulty of getting out of the way:
from the dog training perspective, she doesn’t seem to default to coming in to jump the jump on your push cue, she seems to need a bit more cue and support – which means it is hard for you to disconnect and run run run.
So, we can train it: as she is going around the backside entry wing, as you move away: don’t help her come in with a cue, but rather drop the reward in behind you as you move away (or have a manners minder there if she likes those). Start with the bar low so she doesn’t face plant as she sees the toys. You can help her with a jump verbal but try not to use a physical cue: we want her to default to taking the bar and the reward placement will help that.
The other thing to add here is related to the backside wrap: the strong connection very directly to her eyeballs on your push cue until you see her head turn to commit to the backside. Your connection was peripheral, so she was getting the backside when your motion really help but when you tried to peel away, she didn’t get it as well. So it is a volume dial moment: HIGH VOLUME connection (turn it up to 11!) until you see her committing to the backside – then turn down the volume and get outta there.I think playing with this connection stuff will be fun with her – we can figure out what needs more training and then find ways to get you way up the line 🙂
Yay!Tracy
Hi! Oopsie, I didn’t see the others, thank you for the reminder!
Can you repost the first one (Sending) – it brings me to a main youtube page and not the video.On the sends: The sends are going fine! He is moving away and touching with intent – we don’t need speed at this point (I personally prefer it when the dogs are a bit slower and more thoughtful at this age – that way they have strong understanding and we can switch on the speed later. He is getting it and we will be building on it this week 🙂 You can get closer to the pillow case and do the sideways sends now too!
Decel and turning: Your timing was really good on the decel! He was able to collect his stride to arrive at your side when you were facing forward. Good boy! You were nice and early on those. He is bending nicely on the turns when turn – one little suggestion is to turn more slowly so he can bend his body even more. Because he is so young, he hasn’t quite mastered how to move all of his parts LOL! So, pivot more slowly so he can follow the line and bend through his body 🙂
>> Sometimes he will be playing with the toy just fine and then all of sudden all his energy is directed at jumping and biting me. Like you said, I don’t really understand it, but I suppose we don’t need to know the underlying reason to begin working on it.>>
I think he is probably crossing an arousal threshold when that happens: it isn’t necessarily a choice he is making, it is just a reflex when he is stimulated/frustrated for whatever reason. So… set your timer for 30 seconds and end your sessions early! Then give him a long break. That will actually result in better progress because he will learn efficiently and not cross that threshold. As he matures, he will have more tools to help keep himself under that threshold.
>>What do I do if after he eats the cookie and is calmly standing there, and I present the toy, but he doesn’t want it?
You can try throwing the toy away so he can chase it. Or if it is on a long line, you can try dragging it. And if he simply doesn’t want it, no worries, we don’t fight with him about it – use the cookies and we can figure out other steps.
>>And what do I do when he does come at me and bite me? He will do that behavior (jumping, biting) almost every time we stop playing with a toy, even if he is the one who ends it by losing interest. I will pick it up to put it away and then he “attacks” me.>>
So is that the main pattern you see? You stop playing and then he goes all velociraptor chomp chomp? Does it happen early in the session, like on the first rep, or generally after several reps? I suggest a bit of training game with a low value toy: a little bit of play, nothing too insane, take the toy away for a heartbeat and if he does NOT velociraptor you: throw the toy and let him run around with it as a reward for modulating the arousal (throwing the toy and letting him run with it can be a nice stress release). Let me know how it goes and we can build from there!
Tracy
Hi!
OK, hopefully this makes you chuckle:
the first 30 seconds looked awesome: perfect click timing, good placement, she was looking at her work – terrific! The prop has value and you can definitely move to the sending game with it. Yay! Super nice!
Suddenly after the first 30 seconds, the clicks were all wrong, she wasn’t touching the prop, she was looking at you, I was very confused. HA! When I watched it again, turns out that I had missed the part where the video said “Pre-Game 2” because I took a bite of a snack – and on the 2nd watching I saw that you were holding the target in your hand and the prop wasn’t there, it was a sun spot on the floor. LOL!! It was hard to see all of the clicks on the hand target, some were cut off, but the ones I saw looked great 🙂 And it explains why she was looking towards you LOL!! You can get it a little lower so she targets downwards – you can sit on the couch to do it so you don’t need to be bend over.We build on pre-game 1 in the Sends game and we build on pre-game 2 on Saturday 🙂
Great job!!
TracySo he is perfect, is that what you are saying? LOL! My Hot Sauce has all of those in her too, such a fun mixture.
Does he have a littermate named Cheese in South Carolina?Hi!
>>When you say softening the side info, would that be when a dog crosses behind when they shouldn’t? Because they were confused about which side to be on?
So by soft connection, I mean a peripheral connection where the handler can see the dog but is not looking at the dog… and the dog can’t necessarily see the handler’s upper body clearly.
Yes, that crossing behind the handler one thing that could happen – if the dog sees the handler’s head turn forward, the dog might think it is the precursor to a blind cross and switch sides. If the dog is coming out of a tunnel or around a wing and is seeking out side info and the connection is too soft (too peripheral), then yes, the dog might choose the wrong side.
Other dogs immediately sniff in that moment, some drop the bar, or some dogs just come into the handler. All sorts of different reactions to the same soft connection.
T
