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Hi!
Starting from the end of your post first:>>If I can’t produce the result I want from close in, then there is no point in moving away, so we’ll stay close for a few more sessions. Ideas for more effective training always welcome. (I cut out most of the play/praise but it was there.)
Agreed – start close in but I think the wing-to-tunnel set up is close in enough while still having a bit of speed. It allows you to show motion – being at the end of the tunnel with the toy is a good warm up but I do believe we need do it from speed and motion as early as possible. And along those lines – systematically 🙂 I use my 2×80 rule when deciding if I can increase challenge or if I need to decrease it: 2 sessions in a row at 80% success or higher before I change anything (such as adding speed or more distance, etc). If we don’t get that, we tend to move too quickly and then there are holes. If my sessions are logging in at 60%…. then I need to decrease the challenge. So you can start start with a set amount of motion with the wing 15 feet away, for example: do 10 reps of left/right from handing the entry of the tunnel. See how many fall within the proper success level for 2 sessions then move to the next step of increase or decrease.
(You could do it from the exit of the tunnel, but I think the lure of the toy or hand was producing the turn plus there was not a lot of motion – so I would start after that step – perhaps not a lot of motion but without the lure)So on tunnel exits, how to judge success? You can have something that you can see as a marker but also that he does not think he needs to go around. Watching the tunnel bags… he was exiting pretty nicely then lined himself up to go around the tunnel bags, so it is entirely possible that he thought he was supposed to go around them like a cone or wing or something. When there were no tunnel bags on the right turns, his turns looked much different (better!)
I do leashes on the ground to help judge, and I also do jump wings: a jump wing maybe 15 feet past the exit on the go line, one 15 feet past the exit on the left line: it gives the dog an anchor to drive to. Sometimes I do a C-shaped tunnel so one end is a go and one end is a left 🙂
>>He likes food – should I switch to food rewards for a session or two?
You totally could, as long as it is highly worthwhile to drive to!
>>I want to get right, left, go-on and chkkk-chkkk close in with no motion before I try anything else.
You could do this in the 2×80. But by close in, I do recommend being on the tunnel entry and not the exit at this point.
>>Then in a burst of either forgetfulness or masochism, I started going left. I did some chase-rewards but it didn’t seem to help and the number of chase recalls I can do is quite limited.
Haha yes sometimes we do have those bursts then we wonder why we did it LOL!!! The chase rewards are compelling and get a lot of drive to a new line – hard to know if it helped or not in just one session. You don’t need many reps in each session but multiple sessions are in order.
>>So the first one is at :18. I give both verbal and physical cues; he exits the tunnel looking left and on his left lead — and he makes a wide loopy turn to the left. (Love how YouTube lets me do slo-mo wherever I want.)
I think he was wrapping the tunnel bags on those.
>>The right turns were much better.
No tunnel bags on those 🙂
>>What do you think? Are the loopy ones ‘good enough’ or should I stick to the 90 degree criteria?
I suggest marking the criteria differently do he can drive to something – a leash on the ground perhaps to mark the line you want him inside of, then he drives to you or a wing or another tunnel?
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Oh, I meant to add: I am a bit disappointed in how poorly Enzo responds to tunnel cues, since he has been working on them for a long time. At least as long as cues that he responds to very well; for example backside wrap versus backside slice.
Understandable! I think part of it is that he is feeling the wind in his hair more now especially in the tunnels – speed has increased, excitement has increased… totally normal and in fact, desired! But that also always means that something, somewhere is going to get “looser” – and in his case, tunnel exits. Many dogs lose their weave pole entries/exits or their contacts or tight turns on jumps at this point as well (I have been there!!) and I think Enzo is looking good on these so I will happily take wide tunnel exits as the ‘loose’ skill LOL!
>>Oh well, it doesn’t really matter. The dog tells us what he does or doesn’t know, regardless of what we think we have taught or we think he should know.
True, the dogs give us the actual feedback on the training… but a bit of venting is allowed LOL!! We don’t train with punishment and we don’t get mad at the dog – so we are totally allowed to vent about it.
>>Possibly has something to do with how easy it is to work jumping drills and what a pain it is to work tunnel drills.
Relatable!! I work very few tunnel drills lately, between the heat and the tunnel bagging and Voodoo ripping his dewclaws apart in tunnels and and and…. jump drills are so much easier LOL!
OK back to that lead out: sorry for any confusion!
>>The first one, with the circled A is that I considered that I did:
– Lead out to a strategic position at the point of the first turn.
– Move as soon as he is committed to jump #2 (almost immediately)>>Yes, that is what you did – and it produces a turn on landing with a bit more of a zig zag than we want. Almost universally, we want the dogs to turn on the inside section of the bar of jump 2 (the side closer to 1, where you drew the red line) but with that lead out position, they jump the center of the bar facing the handler and turn on landing (even with the great connection and fabulous timing you showed). My guess on why is that the dogs are making decisions before they leave the stay on a lead out so based on where you are standing on the release: boom, decision made even *before* the release. That position can work better in the middle of the course where handler motion is affecting the turn into it and the dogs can see the bigger picture.
And yes, B is closer to what I mean –
>>The second shows me starting on the path (is this what you mean by “Try to lead out right on the line and execute the FC with the same timing but on the exact line you want him on (then get outta there of course)”. But I don’t like it because then my path is not parallel to the dog’s path. Running a parallel path is one of those “things” I do.>>
I agree that it will feel uncomfortable at first – it is more “on” the line and not as much parallel to the line. It is more of a serpentine position on 2 and the dogs read it really well – you will be well past the #3 jump to cue the line to the tunnel with no problem. I did a snippet of it with the blank slate baby dog (part of something else getting posted) – these are jumps 2 and 3 (I turned him over the 2nd jump here to reward but he was center of the bar on it, so it would have been easy enough to get a tunnel out in the distance – I would not be there that long with the adult dogs, I would be setting that turn on the release and long gone when he landed at 2. That is something you can easily do with Enzo.
>>I thought you were taking the weekend off?
Only Saturday 🙂 It was a do-nothing day at home 🙂
Let me know what you think!
T
Hi! I bet the a/c felt GREAT!!!!!! Yes, you are going to have to get running, he was really happy to be able to open up 🙂
Great threadle from the DW to the tunnel at :12 – you were on a perfect line (on the video, you were parallel to the center of the teeter) – great connection, great footwork – Cody read it perfectly.
He dropped the bar after the tunnel at :17 – you were standing up to make the transition to the turn, I think the bar was just a combination of him getting used to the different footing after some time away from it, and you sorting out the timing, shaking off a bit of rust. Based on how long it took him to get back into the camera’s view, I am thinking that he did not turn very tightly on the next jump LOL! Coming in with all that speed, the early cue is probably what he needed – and you can be even earlier to you can be more fully rotated and connected with a strong brake arm.
Obsessing on the off course tunnel at :41-:43, it is really subtle:
I think there was a subtle difference in how you handled it that caused him to go back to th other end. Comparing it to the same thing at :12, where you had the arm but you kept moving forward towards the line you wanted, feet facing the correct end of the tunnel, no stop then start… on this rep you actually turned back to him and connected TOO much (I know, too much connection, who knew it was a thing?? Ha!) But turning back as much as you did, it caused your feet to turn towards the end of the tunnel he went into (freeze it on :42) You had a little more stop-then-start than on the rep at :12. That caused you to block the line a little (on the rep at :12 you were moving away from the line and on this rep you were on it for longer which pushed him away to the other end. Then, with your feet facing there and you starting to move, he was pretty convinced about which end it was 🙂
Then note your running line and feet at :58 when you re-did it – much closer to what you did at :12 and Cody was perfect.
The rest looks really good!! You can add in a little soft brake arm on the jump before the teeter (like the one you did at the very end) to tighten it up. Cody looked like he was moving beautifully and confidently!!!!Let me know what you think! Nice work!
Tracy
Good morning!
She is really beginning to read these lines like a pro!!!Seq 1 did go really well!!! By putting the BC after the tunnel, she wanted to curl into you over 3 on the 1st run which is why you needed a stronger connection to get 4 and 5 – which is what you did on the 2nd run (the last bar was just the toy throw being a bit early). That looked great! The other option on this sequence is to send to the tunnel and put the BC between 3 and 4, which should set the line a little better to 4 and keep you further ahead.
The wrong-way-wraps aka accidental rear crosses are something we see a lot! After quite a bit of obsessing, I realize that the turn-away is caused by too much pressure and/or motion in towards the takeoff spot during the rotation of the cross… so it looks like we are cuing a rear cross based on where we are and where our feet are pointed (and how we step out of the rotation). That is what happened at :18 on the first run – as she was deciding how to commit, you turned your feet to the RC line and that is what she read. It is VERY subtle and easier to see in slow motion. Your position seemed fine (on the outside of the wrap wing you wanted) but it was the run fast-then-turn that pointed the info to the RC line. So – maintain your running line to the outside wing like you had, but use a wrap transition: go fast til she lands and then slow down while still facing forward – then as she is passing you/getting into that last 1/3rd before the jump, rotate and head the other way. That decel element of the transition will take out the RCs and also eliminate the tooth hugs 🙂
On the 2nd rep, you rotated away from it more (shoulder pull) which actually pulled her off the line – so keep heading that direction but you don’t need to pull quite as much. Let me know if that makes sense!Nice work!!
TracyHello and welcome! So sorry to not be able to see you in person this year 🙁
I have consolidated your threads an put your 2nd set of videos in here too – it will be easier for you to find everything this way 🙂
The videos are marked private, so I can’t see them. Can you re-list them as Unlisted? That will let me me see them. Let me know if you need help relisting 🙂
Thanks!
TracyHi! I figured you were doing the rear crosses specifically to get them more comfortable – they are looking good, I don’t think he turned the wrong way on any of them here.
>>It’s so cool to feel our teamwork coming together.
YES!!! How old is he now? 18 months approx? I am not sure what is going on in your area in terms of trials, but maybe some UKI speedstakes NFC runs would be good to try!
>>By the way, this was the first assignment that all jumps were at 10″.
He did really well on his jumping 🙂 So fun to see!
T
Thanks!!! I admit to snorting at your subtitle “Why am I still looking at her” LOL!!!! Still giggling lol It looks like you started the blind and then looked back at her then re-started the blind. On this particular set up, you can start the blind as soon as you are pretty sure she is going to the tunnel (so at least when she is 6 feet from it, if not sooner) – the BC can be that early here because your running line supports 3 and your new connection will support it too. That is not the case for every BC but it should work nicely here.
The second rep was NICE – you started the BC right as she entered the tunnel (and right verbal) so it was done a lot sooner (she was one stride out of the tunnel) – she read the line beautifully and it looks like you ran a perfect line to the #4 backside (:16-:17) she had a pretty dang straight line to 4!! I bet it felt like you had at least one more heartbeat before cuing the backside 🙂 Nice rotation on that cue! You can actually start your go tunnel verbal sooner – as she is rounding the backside wing, start your go tunnel – it will work in this context for 2 reasons: your running line was great and also there is no other visible tunnel 🙂 If there is a visible off course tunnel, I would delay the tunnel verbal but definitely call her – if you watch it in slow motion she actually hesitated a tiny bit on landing of 4 LOL!!!! Honestly, that is just a bit of inexperience but using the verbals sooner can help too.Great job here!! Let me know what you think!
THi! That is a bummer about Lily, I hope she makes a fast and complete recovery!!! She is faster AND more thoughtful? That is an interesting combination but it is was we strive for: fast and thoughtful 🙂 Yay!
>>I did realize that my lefts and rights and wraps are not as dependable at the end of the tunnel as they are over a jump.>>
We have to cue them wicked early because the dogs cannot see the body cues while in the tunnel… so if we are late, we are stuck with whatever the dog thinks we want LOL!!!
And congrats on your new puppy!!! Corgi pups are the *cutest*. What is her name?? I am SO excited for puppy class 🙂
Tracy
Hi there! Nice work on these!
1st 2 GO reps – nice! She really fires up into extension here when you accelerate (keep that in mind for a moment…)
On the first right cue at :08 – flip the energy your motion so the timing of it doesn’t include sudden acceleration. You were slow coming around the wing then as you cued the right, you exploded into motion. That adds a bit too much acceleration. The turns were good – but when you were less explosive and more chill at :22, that is when things got REALLY lovely on the turns. So go fast as she comes around the wing, and slow down into the turns.
Wraps:
Check cue at was :29 very nice! On the dig cue on the other side – I thought your timing was good but she might have felt too much pressure as you pushed in so she rear crossed – that is something we saw on the jump stuff last week too. She did MUCH better when you were more lateral at :41 and on the reps on the rest! Pressure towards her really pings her away from the line.
:37 was just a little too soon 🙂
The rear crosses looked great!!! And the entire progression at the end looked great – working through all the turns is challenging but you nailed each on in terms of timing, reinforcement placement, verbals, etc. YAY!! Great job!!!Tracy
I think there is total hope! And I an ever-thankful for slow motion LOL!!!!
I for one am NOT so good at conformation critiques LOL!! And slowing improving in gait critique 🙂Hi!
This is a nice continuation of what we were doing in tunnel class 🙂
Wilder’s GO looked great!
It was a little hard to see his right turn on the first rep rep at 14 but I think the turn looked good (and the nthe toy was there LOL!) but the left turns looked great both on the regular left and the rear cross! The right rear cross also looked great,On the wrap cues – perfect timing on both the wrap cues and he turned really well! Verbal and physical cues were very timely and clear. Yay!
Poor Bit, I hope her shoulder feels better!!!
The Go cues looked great – nice timing of the cues and great job getting the reward out ahead nice and early too.
The first left cue was really good, she was actually turning tighter than the toy throw!
The other left & right cues had more motion so she turned correctly but a little wider: good to know that you have the added power steering of being able to add a little decel and get a difference in the turns!First wrap – I didn’t think you were too soon at :39 in general terms… but she had a little trouble committing on that cue for sure! I think it is just lack of experience – she is committing really well but is still very inexperienced on this crazy stuff LOL! You waited longer on the last 2 reps and she looked great!
Sequences with Wilder:
That #3 jump was giving you trouble on the first course! On the first rep, you had a little connection break (:05) and it ended up pulling him into the front side at the last minute. He needs a lot of arm-back, eye-to-eye discussion to push away from you there 🙂
The backside wrap at :12 worked well – you can be closer to where the wing meets the bar so he can see the full wing, and that will give him a straighter line to it. Then stay super connected to his eyes to convince him to drive ahead for 4 – you pointed forward so he did not read it as a push into the gap for 4.
At :21, you had great connection to get to the backside slice and I thought you had clear connection to convince him to jump it – he thought otherwise LOL!!!! So that is a good skill to isolate: take the jump automatically on the backside. You can help get it by dropping a reward in to the landing side while you move forward towards 4.
Circle wrap on the outside wing went really well! And you had great connection on the send to 4 and easily got back up the line for the 5-6. Nice lines there!>> Unless I am sending him ahead for a distance challenge, I have to pace myself with him or he knocks bars when I move ahead.
You were way ahead on this section, bars stayed up – you were super connected. But it did seem like he slowed down a bit 4-5? You might want to call him more, quietly, when you get way ahead?
Seq 2: Speaking of bars down… he dropped #3 at :52 when you were ahead. He might rush to catch you in those instances, and lose jumping form? You were not as connected here so you can possibly help him when you get way ahead by having your dog-side arm back so he sees more connection. I love that you can get way ahead, but we don’t want to sacrifice bars: so we can try to figure out if there is a helpful way to keep the bars up while also getting you waaaay ahead.
The 2nd rep looked great – but you were pacing yourself here at 3 and not as far ahead.
BTW – that pacing you mention is one of the hardest parts of small dog handling. Big dog handling? Just run as fast as you can LOL!! Small dog handling? HARD because we have to figure out how to pace the lines. It takes some experimenting for each dog!
Seq 3: Speaking of pacing your running… you had a great running line on the first rep and you were way ahead: either he was hot or he did NOT like it, he slowed down to a trot. Wilder is giving us a lot to obsess on LOL! Or maybe his cookies were behind him?
He was a tiny bit wide on the exit of the circle wrap at 3 and front side wrap at 5 – you stepped out to the side, so he read that line. Remember to step forward on his perfect path until he gets on it.He seemed to like the BC on the ending line there – you can actually turn sooner on this line: on this type of line, the latest to start the BC is when you see him exit the tunnel. You can actually start the BC earlier on this line, because your running line and your new side after the BC also support 7. The BC is definitely faster than the RC here 🙂
Bar down at 1:53 (I am looking for patterns of what specifically causes it when you are ahead, so we can work that out) – you were very lateral, moving fast – as he exited the tunnel at 1:51, you were ahead and looking forward (not connected). You reconnected at 1:52 but he might have already been distracted. When you did the next rep, you were very connected but not as far ahead.
So feel free to experiment: very far ahead & connected, and running the same line (very far ahead) but not connected. And we will keep track to see if we can find the exact pattern with the bars – it might not just be far ahead, it might have something to do with connection or if you are lateral or not.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHello!
Good job on these!!Seq 1:
Hey, nice job on the RC in the first rep!!!! Yay! You can actually face the rear cross line sooner – as you pass the wing of 3, you do not need to straighten up to face 4, you can be slightly turned and facing the center of the bar already. Excellent verbals too!!Rep 2: BC – you can start it sooner – as soon as you see his head exit the tunnel, execute the blind. You waited til he was centering in on jump 3 – you don’t need to wait that long, especially on this type of line. On this type of line where your motion really presents the #3 jump you can probably start the BC as soon as he commits to 2!
Sequence 2: Wrap on the 4 jump:
Hard to tell at :26 how deep to the tunnel you went, so remember not to go too deep – it looked like you went a little closer to the tunnel than needed, but I think that was more of a depth-perspective thing on the video angle?
On the wrap – this is happening to almost everyone 🙂 You are trying to get to the rotation too early so it is actually producing a wider wrap than we want. When he landed from 3, you were trying to rotate and send back to 4 at :29 and :43. The propulsion of the big send back to the 4 jump is more motion than needed here (backwards motion is often read as forward motion when there is a lot of it) so you can delay the rotation: as he is exiting the tunnel, show him acceleration. Then as he is approaching 3/landing from 3, show him a forward-facing decel and hold that decel for a step or two, exaggerate it as needed… then when he is maybe halfway to the jump, rotate and leave. That can get better collection which will tighten the turn – and also keep you from getting too far ahead there, which makes it harder to show the line.The rest of sequence 2 looked great!
Seq 3:
Rep 1: RC on the flat to 4 is a good RC to practice – you can start pushing in towards the tunnel sooner, so he is a little further over on the bar towards the tunnel on the 3 jump.
The wrap on 5 is another spot you can emphasis the decel and delay the rotation a little bit.
On the RC on the ending line 0- he is reading these RCs really well!!!!!! You can face the line to the rear cross sooner (no need to face forward to 8) and then it will be perfect.Rep 2 – I love the idea of a long lead out on this sequence! Check out where you were on :29 – on a slice line on 2 that is not direct to 3. That set off a chain of events: he got 1-2 but then had to turn on landing of 2 to find 3 and at 3, watch his jumping effort – can you see how high his butt comes? (:32-:33) That means he was off balance and a water skiier losing the line of the boat LOL!
So on the lead out lines, the perfect path rules apply – lead out on the perfect path so you can handle it from the perfect path – as a FC or a serp, or moving into a BC.
Ooh, I liked the switch at 5!!! Very nice line and turn and it set a nice line back ot the tunnel. Because it was a RC, you had a decel then rotation and he was lovely!
You pulled away from the RC line at 7, so he slowed down a little on the 7-8 line. Stay tight to the wing there and get right on his tail 🙂
Next rep – you did the RC opening on 4, you can also push in sooner to turn hi to 4 – that will get you to the wrap even more easily. I liked this turn on 5 the best so far – you can still cace forward a little longer to make it easier to decel, but the entire cue here was decelerated and he was really lovely!
He smoked you a little on the last line at :59 🙂 You made a clear connection as he exited the tunnel there and then I think you had a “OH CRAP HE IS OUT OF THE TUNNEL ALREADY” moment ahd took off LOL! That made the blind late. So on this type of line – as soon as you see him heading to the tunnel, run like mad and do the BC before he exits.Let me know if that makes sense about why we can get away with doing the blind so early (because the motion makes your line so obvious and also when hte blind is finished early, it will still cue 7). Other angles would make it a bad idea, but it works nicely here.
Seq M3:
I think the lines you set on the first rep 1-2-3-4 and 7-8-9 are the fastest lines through the backsides. You did rep 1 as serps with rears on those spots – it worked nicely, but yo ucan also try them as serp-to-blind (german turns) which will be faster 🙂The switch at 5 on the first rep was lovely!!!!
On the 2nd & 3rd rep – you can set a nicer line 2-3 by leading out more on the exact line and not past the wing of 2, that set a big zig zag. Having to push back to get 3 delayed you from getting into the exit line – you did run the right line, it just took a little longer to get there so he saw you slicing and that is the line he took 3-4 which contributed to missing the #4 tunnel at :42
You wrapped him to his left on 5 – hard to see inthe sun spot but his exit line was a little wide – that is a spot for decel too before the rotation.
At 1:10 on the last rep you did the serp-blind on 7 – nice! To get it really smoothly, send him to the backside there from further across the bar – at least center of the bar but ideally closer to the exit wing. Your goal is that you are already on the takeoff side of the bar when he arrives on the takeoff side of it – then the blind will be earlier and he can have a tighter line there. You were a tiny bit late getting to the takeoff side so he had to go around you on the blind.
Nice work! I am especially happy with all of the RC work 🙂 Let me know if the ideas make sense!
Tracy
Great job on the verbals, everyone!!! I love that you all also posted ones that are not yet trained 🙂 Priorities!!
It can be SO overwhelming to face training ALL these verbals, so I have prioritized them. GO, wraps, left/right: those are top priorities for me personally, based on what my dogs will need to know and when they need to know it. Along with the name as an attention cue.
Then… obstacle names for commitment.
After that: tunnel discrims/threadles and ‘get out’
Then threadle slices and backside slice/wraps.Somewhere after that – threadle wraps. I almost never see those on course. I will need to emphasize them more if I ever want to go back to Europe to compete, but that is soooo not on the radar with the youngsters right now, and Voodoo is not a dog that I want to jump at 24″.
Just a bit of Sunday morning food for thought!
Tracy
I totally have an out drill 🙂 Disclaimer: there are some handling schools/systems that will not like the way I cue it LOL!! But it gives my dogs useful info, they get to be fast AND accurate, and it does not damage any other cues 🙂 One of my favorite instructors hates it LOL! But I can’t survive those big UKI courses with Voodoo without it 🙂 I will dig it out and post it up with the custom skills sets tomorrow 🙂
