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Hi!
Thank you for putting the walk through in!!!Two things I noticed in the walk through that cropped up in the run:
– It looked/sounded like you were saying the verbals late, when she was already arriving at the line where she would need to execute the behavior. That means she would not hear them in time for the real run, which could lead to questions.
– you can give her more obvious threadle cues in the opening at 3, as well as at 6-7 and 10-11. What I mean by that is keep moving to the jump but swing your threadle arm (dog side arm) way back to open up your shoulders. That is what cues the in-and-out on the threadle line. You were rotated feet and closing your shoulder, which could send her past the threadle jump.
Looking at the runs:
Full run –
You can trust and threadle 1-2-3 more with that arm back and moving to 3. You helped a little more than she needed on the first run (but she got it). on the runs where she didn’t get 3 (1:42 and 3:10), the threadle arm was not back and you closed your shoulders forward, which cued her to go past the 3 jump.She had a little trouble finding 5 when you layered – it was because you were quiet when she entered the tunnel and the GO verbal happened after she exited (first run and 1;54 for example). That caused her to exit curling into you, and then the “go” verbal applied to the jump she was looking at. You can start that go verbal when she is still 5 or 6 feet away from entering the #4 tunnel, and keep it going til she locks onto 5. You can also use bigger/more direct connection to her eyes and even an outside arm to get 5 when you layer.
Taking out the layering at 2:15 and 3:21 and converging into 5 totally helped too but made it a little harder to get the next line.
The 5-6-7 slice then FC looked good in isolation!
In flow: as you threadle 6-7, use a big arm back and slight rotation at the waist, rather than pull away from the 7 jump (2:20 and 2:30). Pulling away from the 7 jump then trying to send her back to it delays the info, so she either a past it or got it at the very last minute. You can start the threadle info (arm back and verbal, plus line of motion to 7) as she is lifting for 6, and keep moving towards 7. Keep the threadle arm back until you see her turn and look at 7.The first BC after 6 put her on a line to the backside (3:25) then into the off course tunnel. You had much better position there at 3:45, nice adjustment! You can do a spin on the exit of the wrap rather than a full post turn to show her the best line there.
Warming up on the 10-11-12 section:
>Tried to go right after 11 but with Roux I couldn’t call her off the tunnel.>
Slicing right is definitely the better line: a spin with a delayed BC (rather than a post turn) might get that line more smoothly, plus calling her name. Think of it as doing a full FC as you are moving to 12 then as she exits and ignores the tunnel, do a BC.
Wrapping left there gets the tunnel out of the picture but the line as not as good as slicing to the right – it almost sent her to the backside of 13 at 2:43 and 3:59.
14-end looked really good, and had some of your best connection on course! Adding GO as the verbal for last tunnel to last jump worked best! Add it sooner, so she can hear it before she enters the tunnel.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
> Thanks for indulging me.>
It was fun! Keep it coming!
>I came to the same conclusion about running the last two snooker runs on Sunday (today) as if there were numbers in the Snooker opening. She cued the advanced snooker run, and the masters run right afterwards!>
SUPER!!! I think the dogs are wondering what happened to their normally aggressive and connected handler when we handle differently in the games classes 🙂 So making it into a course is great!
Tracy
Hi! So much good stuff here!!!! He is running great 🙂
Nice job finding the weaves at :18 & :50 & 3:44! That is a hard discrimination!
> I do feel like he’s super good at them when I can successfully set that line to the backside and he’s got nice commitment and independence on them when that goes well.>
Agree! Which is why if something goes wrong, you will want to carry on to the next obstacle and reward. Stopping and withholding reward had a bit of fallout here, making him tentative in a hard spot when he was reading the cues correctly. I know people will tell you not to reward… but if the dog is correct and the handling is incorrect, the dog should get a reward either in the moment or continuing up the next line.
>I think I was trying too hard to copy your arm style to see if that would help him get more clarity but not doing it “right” and making it worse. We had moved to a single low inside arm a while ago that works well most of the time. It’s only when the line isn’t set that I feel that doesn’t give him what he needs.>
You can use the single arm, that works great too – but you would still need to set the line the same way. Some of the TWs here had a natural set of the line based on where you were coming from, so didn’t even need a decel! But bear in mind that the harder TWs need a line set and very often, they need decel too so you can get the wrap.
>P.S. we did lots of push wraps too but the threadle wraps are what gives me anxiety so I’d really like to focus on them.>
Your push wraps are looking pretty fabulous!! And there are courses nowadays where the threadle wrap is the only option, so it is good to focus on them.
Looking at the video:
I grabbed some screenshots of good line sets into the TW versus moments where you did not set the line:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18IQWosQsQ3hLK2uREh8SpSvAsiDRgPbadMxi7gYn5SA/edit?usp=sharing
:26 versus :37, for example – at :26 you were facing the front of the TW jump when he landed from the previous jump. At :37 you turned to face the parallel path line to the TW and he got it there.
At 1:09 – there was an intuitive line to the correct side of the jump, plus you decelerated and faced him before setting the turn.
In the same spot at 1:25 and a bunch of reps after it – your feet faced the the slice line, no decel, looked like a threadle slice (reward the dog, he is correct!)
1:34 had foot rotation and motion towards the slice line (no set of the TW wrap lin and no dece)l so he barked at you but read a threadle slice – the arm movement/foot rotation to cue the wrap happened as he was taking off so it was too late to respond too
1:45 – you were rotated but moving backwards into the threadle slice cue 🙂Then pressure was added (instructor standing there) plus lack of reward on the previous reps despite him reading the info correctly, and he got tentative there. He got the TWs because it was the only option thanks to large dude standing there, but I don’t think it helped sort out the reason why he was slicing on the previous reps 🙂
Good line set at 2:04 for the TW! It is subtle and timely, so he reads it perfectly. He got the hard spot in flow at 2:17 thanks for decel and more timely rotation towards him. That does seems to help him get it but it puts you facing the wrong way for the next line, so it is more ideal to turn away from the jump (and towards the next line) to set it rather than towards him and away from the next line.
At the end, getting the TW off the dog walk: the cues did look slice like!
3:14 – motion is cueing the slice
3:26 was a little better but still had too much motion and not enough setting of the line
3:35 had rotation towards him and decel but he wrapped after landing – it is almost like a lap turn when turning towards him. So to get the TW off the RDW, the timing would need to be no later than top of the down ramp and also have you turning more to where the instructor is standing. On that angle, it is almost like rotating to sit in a chair (the TW wing is the chair and you rotate to pull your back to it while he turns away to it).Really nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! Sounds like a fun trip and congrats on winning it with Kaladin!
Lift was a really good girl – that was a BIG course with things that might have been new to her! And she walked into a giant ring with all sorts of distractions… but she was totally confident and engaged. LOVE IT!! And yay for the tug toy at the practice jump!
2 things that caused a bit of leaping up:
disconnection (this is normal, dogs gt mad when we disconnect) but also – she had a big mad when you praised her 🙂 Not enough info in praise, and she already knows she is awesome 🙂It took a bit to get you re-connected, but then the ending was lovely! Remember to keep your arms down so she can see full connection.
>They ended up with 490 runs Fri & Sat & 540 on Sun (before some scratches as people gave up and left). >
Yikes. They might want to consider making it a 2 ring trial.
>Pentathlon Gamblers (152 dogs) on Sunday took more than 4hrs because of scoring issues where they were trying to do math and had multiple people hand scoring and comparing numbers while the dogs were running so they kept taking pauses to work out discrepanices – all this because they wanted to save paper and wanted to score directly into the computer. >
Oh dear. That sounds exhausting LOL
> The secretary switched up the heights for each class but never swapped the groups so Kaladin was always in Group B that ran 2nd. And somehow with all the confusion over a different height order in each run, he was either the 1rst height or at the very end for every class. (usually the first for the first class and then the last for the next few so we had super-long days. Thank goodness he actually won the Pentathlon Finals on Sunday night by a Sheltie nose. They ran that small to tall so we managed to leave (with our loot) at 7:30PM while they were still running the large dogs.>
Sounds like they have some learning to do about trial management for this type of event! They will figure it out and the events will keep getting better and better 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
Keep me posted on how it goes – using the organization exercises is probably going to be the most effective for him, and it is easy to do in the a/c 🙂T
Let me know if the comments came through! I think your analysis was really good. Overall, treating gamblers more like a course and running with more intent will smooth out the question spots 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
This went really well!>I was trying very hard to stay connected after the turns, as well as going into the turns>
Totally agree – your connection was really strong!
Your rotation into countermotion got earlier and earlier. On the first run, you were beginning to rotate as he was passing you at :04 and :08 – that looked great and his commitment was lovely! These were your earliest rotations along with 1:01, so keep being as early and you can try to be even earlier!
The 2nd run was not quite as early – if you add in decel before he gets to you, you will be able to turn sooner. And another small delay came in the rotation when you were switching the toy from hand to hand – thta was happening when you should have been rotating 🙂 So you can either have it in your pocket, or leave it in one hand. There is no precision reward needed on this game, so having it in your pocket is perfectly fine 🙂
> He did shoot off into the nearby tunnel when we were doing the circle to left.>
Actually… he was correct 🙂 You had a really nice early countermotion at 1:01 and the line of approach to the wing before the tunnel set him directly on the line to the tunnel. Then as he went around that wing at 1:04, you faced the line to the tunnel for a moment so off he went. Good boy! He was on a similar line at 1:15 (directly to the tunnel) so you would need to move the tunnel about 10 feet off the line there to be sure he doesn’t go in when he thinks it is on his line.
Looking at the 2nd video:
All of your front cross wraps on the wing looked fantastic: super nice rotation timing, great connection, and great turns from him! Yay!>I didn’t always get my timing right for the spin.>
Yes, you can be sooner on the spins – if you start them sooner, you will be finished sooner in order to make a big connection. As soon as he is passing you, start the rotation. Then just before he arrives at the wing, disconnect and begin the blind.
At :15 you were a little late then looked forward as he exited the wing, so he guessed on the line. He didn’t get rewarded there, but it was a good example of why we should always reward off courses: the last thing he saw in terms of connection as he exited the wing was on your left side, so that is where he went when he didn’t have the new connection in time to get to your right side. So even if you didn’t see it in the moment, reward his effort because the video will almost always show that he was correct.
You had earlier timing and much better connection at :25 – he was being a little careful there too, so we don’t want him to slow down as you sort out the timing & connection.
Here are the screenshots of those moments:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k_BMMKbP-1khjxfsVqiui-3mbI9Ps6poS8q7ZtWGl6M/edit?usp=sharingYou got them on the other side because your timing was earlier for sure! Remember to reach back to him with your eyes and arm pointing back to him on that side too.
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>I really need to just practice those for me and maybe drop a toy for her so it’s more me training then her?>
Dropping a toy at speed might be too much slam on the shoulders as she tries to stop for it, so you can toss it at the end (she will give you feedback on the handling :))
For the RCs:
>She missed a jump and I just kept going assuming it was me and did a second loop.>
You gave a lot of decel on 4 at :19 and 1:25 (she really collected, more than needed) then disconnected at :20 so she went past it. You can power her through that loop 🙂
You can be pushier and earlier on all the RCs 🙂 The first one at :23 was a little late (RC after tunnel) but she did see the info before takeoff. You can be a little ahead of her when she exits the tunnel and you can be already showing motion to the center of the bar, so she drives past you to make the turn.
On the other 2, I think the toy throws created the RCs 🙂
At 1:29, she had exited the tunnel and you had not started the RC yet. She was actually turning left at takeoff at 1:30 until you tossed the toy to the right (so she adjusted and went to the right).
At 2:11, the info was late too – you pulled to the left turn wing and then as she was preparing for takeoff, you starting stepping in and threw the toy to the right. At 2:12 she takes off going left then adjusts when she sees the toy throw. Ideally, you would be driving to the center of the bar of the RC jump the whole time so she turns the new direction before takeoff.
You can test yourself by not throwing the toy til after she has landed – that will give you better feedback on how early you are showing the RC info 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
>So behind it is fine but what happened to week 4?
Package 4 gets published on Monday the 28th – they come every 2 weeks in CAMP 🙂
Pop Out 1:
On rep 1, you looked forward right when she needed to know if it was the jump or tunnel so she came into you at :14. Much clearer connection at :22 and she got it beautifully 🙂>I overestimated her weave entrance.>
I think it was more of a context question: She had trouble passing the jumps to get to the weaves, might be a new context? She probably hasn’t seen weave entries with stuff to ignore on either side 🙂 It was good to expose her to it!
Pop out 2 had more of the walk through – you are really working the connection which is great! I think you can add more speed, meaning try to run it at Taq speed 🙂 She smoked you on the line 3-4-5 and that gives you an idea of how fast she is, so you can be running those lines as fast as you think she will go (while staying connected and saying verbals :))
The opening 1-2-3 line went great – yo can send to 3 more to get back up the line to 4-5 because the connection when she was at 4 is what was helpful to get her to push away to 5. Be sure to keep moving towards it until you see her lock onto it and get ready for takeoff (you stopped a little short on the 2nd run).
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
>but I would find it much easier to believe “Casper doesn’t understand backsides” than “…because you had not yet told him where to go next”. >
We can split the difference 🤣😂 We don’t really know what he understands because he didn’t know where to go next. So, the jury is still out 🙂 Either way, it is all good – we have training we can do and info to give him (more below). But there were definitely too many errors here – he was getting a little frantic and that did not help the cause with the jumping (he was circling between reps and just kind of flinging himself around).
So two things to consider:
– be are early with the exit info as you can, like at :45 which was great timing both of the cross and showing the next line. When you were doing the cross but not really showing the next line as well, he would look at you and hit the bar while doing so.– you can train his organization skills for this type of jump effort, to reduce the need to have to be perfect with handling (he is way too fast for anyone to be perfect in handling!!). You already have the course:
So this would make it easier to get him over the bar regardless of what the handling was doing, because he would more automatically push from the hind end.
And for now, keep the bar lower to help him keep it up.
>(And, of course, I’m struggling with rehabbing the broken leg, if I need an excuse to be so needy.)>
The leg rehab gives you complete permission to be needy or complain – it was not on the original agenda for the summer!!!!
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>Okay, sh@*t’s getting real. >
That is the fun part! Yay! I like puzzles!
The backside push circles/circle wraps looked great. And once he was committed to the correct side of the jump, he finished his turn beautifully too!
About the TWs: It appears to be a conflicting indicator question. What I mean by that is while your voice and outside arm are saying one cue, the motion/shoulders and your line are saying something else. That is why he is being a bit careful and you are getting the detours and the wrong side of the jump sometimes. Plus you are needing to rotate your feet towards him and dial back your motion (which I not what we want, ideally).
So what can we do to make sure there are no conflicting indicators? Turn your line to be parallel to the line you want him to take to get to the threadle side at the very beginning of the TW cue. This will feel like you are turning away from the front of the jump (because you probably are 🙂 depending on the exact setup). Facing him or rotating towards him will all potentially set the line to the front of the jump, especially if you are already on the line to the front of the jump – which is why you are needing to slow down to get it on the lines where the line to the TW is not obvious (like in the trial video). It appears that the detour where he does get it is cued off of big decel or standing still.
The session started off really well – the TWs after the tunnel had you on a good line to set up the TW, like at :19. At :30 still got it but you were converging into the jump, so be sure to stay on your line and show zero motion to the front side of the jump.
But on these, the line you ran after the BC was parallel to the path to the backside of the jump, so he got it really easily 🙂 We need to replicate that line of motion on the harder TW lines!
Side note:
I know the hand touch on course is a hot topic (getting dogs to drive in for repeated hand touches to set up turns) but it really doesn’t work all that well, or work the way people think it works 🙂 That could be the subject of a whole seminar LOL! When he was coming towards your open hand, it was more about the connection, change in motion, and the arm back like a threadle pulling him in.
So to get the TW like on the sequence here where the line is not obvious:
– First, figure out what his ideal line would be to the backside of the jump (you can even draw it in the footing :))
– Second, as you start the cue – turn your motion and shoulders to be parallel to that line in the dirt (his line). This is away from the line you are on – it will feel like a little bit of a pull in the more exaggerated cases. Your TW hands will pull with your shoulders – for less experienced dogs, I show them my hands up high then drop the hands down as I change my line to be parallel to the dog’s desired path. Experienced dogs don’t need this.
– You can be saying the verbal and using your hands, but stay on that parallel line until he turns himself away to the jump. Don’t face him, don’t face the jump 🙂 It is fine to decel if you are too far ahead, but we don’t want the decel to be what pulls him in to the TW line.Since I am a little under-caffeinated 🙂 I figured pictures would be useful!! So I grabbed a bunch of screenshots here:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1pqjKlP2X_y019_gJwk2Lmclmt85W9919PbwUsjbPAdE/edit?usp=sharing
Starting with the successful TW after the BC, you can see how your line was parallel to his desired line.
Then a few looking at what was not really working: rotating to him and then ending up facing the front side of the jump, so he was either taking the front or you stopped moving to get him to the TW.
Then a screenshot of the really great TW at the trial – your motion naturally ran parallel to the TW line (and not to the front of the jump) so it was lovely there!
Then comparison screenshots from the demo video: as Contraband is over the previous jump, I am already facing & moving along the line parallel to his line to the backside (you can see his eyes are locked onto that line). Then I stay on that line while he turns himself away to the jump (Ripley totally has this skill).
I can go fire up the course designed (on a different device) to draw the lines of motion, if that will make more sense. Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! I love the side-by-side analysis idea! It won’t let me edit the doc to add thoughts… I sent a request yesterday but it might not have gone through? It was from my agilityuniversity@gmail.com address. Let me know if you can get it to let me edit 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>For the ISC AKC Trial, yes the multiple backside challenges were set at AKC distances for the Masters courses which made it tougher. >
Yes, that is a little icky!
Sounds like the dogs did well with handling skills!! Did you video your walk throughs and compare to the run? I am curious to know how close you can get your walk through to be to the run, for each dog. That is challenging especially when running 3 different dogs!
A good mental challenge can also be to walk it for all 3 dogs in the same walk through… then run them back to back (one time only for each). And then see how the run stacked up against the walk through 🙂
>And I am on the list for a possible whippet puppy from MaryHope Schoenfeld’s girl Prana and Korbo from Poeta Whippets in Canada. I am hoping 🙂>Yay! I am excited for you and I hope you get one! My Contraband is from Poeta lines – I don’t think he is related to Korbo, though. And I have met other Korbo pups in MaxPup and they are so fun!!!!
Thanks for the update! Stay cool!
TracyHi! This went really well – he is very literal so he gives good feedback if the cues are on the wrong line or connection is not as clear (bars come down).
He had a little trouble turning away from the course at the beginning – he might have thought it was weird to turn away from the obstacles? It looks like you exaggerated the turn a bit and he got it nicely 🙂
Looking at the blinds:
Absolutely gorgeous blind cross timing and connection at :27 which set up a fabulous wrap on the next jump, thanks to decel and connection. He had a little question on the jump after the tunnel (#3) on this run, I think it is because you were not moving (so he was thinking turn) then you accelerated forward and he tried to adjust mid-air.At :41 on the next run you had more motion and he had no questions on jump 3.
The blind at :42 also had good timing, but line was too straight as you passed 4, so he pulled the rail when you finished the blind and moved to 5. I grabbed screenshots of your position on the blinds: on most of them, you were heading to 5 and he read ti perfectly. On this one, you were heading straighter (towards the a-frame, almost) so he didn’t know he was turning:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1JKUUumQR-3ZLzPQZYDgAq2VWZtzMs7L53trlUVZ5ao4/edit?usp=sharing
Another nice decel and lovely wrap on 5 on that rep!
Bar down on 7 at :48 – probably a combination of a dog suddenly barking and your arm coming up high and blocking connection
3rd run – more great timing on the blind at :55! You are really nailing it!
You also had a really good line here, so there were no questions about the bar.Bar down on 6 at 1:19 and at 1:15 – that was a little bit of late timing but to help get the turn so you don’t have to be perfect, you can cue that jump with 2 hands (brake arm) – let him see both arms pointing back to him (I like to have my palms facing the ground) as he exits 5 so he can add a collection stride.
The timing at 1:10 was also fabulous 🙂 And you were on a good line too!
Great job 🙂
Tracy
