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Good morning!
Oh yes, he is much more balanced going over the bumps and was beginning to bounce them really nicely! He did touch them sometimes on the harder reps where he had to think about the behavior and couldn’t multi-task the hind end coordination. But, I am sure he will sort it out within another session or two.
He did think turning away was something out of the bizarro world LOL! So you can do the low, slow hand help that you added later in the video – that really got the behavior! When the hand was too high, he was struggling to turn away.
He did really well as you added the neutral position too – it was clear that he seemed to be attaching the verbal to “take the jump then turn” and that is what we want. He was better in the neutral position start turning to his right and you helped him with the start position being a little less neutral for the left turns – perfect! I am guessing he is a righty so you can gradually add more neutral position to the left turns while he continues to be successful and attach the verbals.Using this setup, which he finds really easy: you can attach your ‘get the toy’ cues too! He didn’t seem to have any questions about when the toy or food was in play here (the dogs get really good at figuring out context LOL!) so it is more for you to make the ‘reward in play’ and markers second nature and not something you have to think about or plan 🙂
He was a good stay pup at the end! He does look like he is getting the idea of it. Happy dance!!
Great job here – let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Great questions here! About the chest use: the dogs read our shoulders as one of the most important cues (and motion/feet being the other super important cue). We use our hands and eyes primarily to get our chest/shoulders turned to the correct line because that is a lot easier for us humans than thinking about shoulders while running 🙂
>>From what we worked on in last night s live class, I’m a little confused about what a square chest is supposed to mean to the dog?
When we square our shoulders to the jump (upper body facing the jump, center of the chest to approximately center of the bar, feet moving along the line) we are cuing the come in-go out behavior of the line we fine on serpentines and also on ‘get outs’ and some backsides. The dogs naturally come in towards us, but the ‘go out’ element is NOT natural so the chest position gets it going. If we turn our shoulder so we are pulling the dog in and the shoulders are perpendicular to the line, we will get the come in but not the go out.
On some lines, we exaggerate the go out element of the cue with an outside arm when the turn away is more extreme, or when the dog is still learning to read it. That is why on some of the backsides it was useful to use the opposite arm because it turned the dog away very easily (the ultimate goal is that the opposite arm there is a training aid that gets faded for most dogs, and all you will need to do is connect and use a verbal :))
>> In the wing/SERP exercises you had me square, ie. make parallel to the dogs line, when he supposed to come in thru the gap.
I am not sure which part you meant, specifically? When we were bringing the dog through the gap after the wing wrap (wrapping and not taking the jump), it was a front cross/side change so there should not have been any chest squaring to the bar (because he was not taking the bar). When we sent him around the wing on the left or right soft turn and we wanted the serpentine on the jump – yes, that is where you will want your line of travel (feet/motion) to be parallel to the jump bar and towards the reward target) and your shoulders square and ‘facing’ the bar: the square shoulders mean come in – go out. If you turn your shoulders away, he should come in but not go out (like a post turn). So serpentines have the trailing hand and chest rotated to the bar to get the in-out behavior.
>>It seemed like in the Lines Lines seminar the trailing hand back with a squaring of the chest was to add pressure to the dogs line to send him out to the backside of the jump.>>
Serpentine handling is all about lead changes – on serps of all sorts, the dog’s line is coming in towards us and we need to use serp handling to turn him away from us (come in – go out).
Yes, in that context – because the jump before it was a weird serp jump 🙂 The dog was coming in to his left over the jump before the backside here, and you had to use handling to get him to go back out (to his right) to find the backside (which he did really well here!) And some with the tunnel exit to the backside: he is turning to his right exiting the tunnel, so if you did nothing he would take the front of the jump. By turning your upper body towards him, you got the ‘go out’ element of the line and he found the backside. We were using some outside arm to help him (because he was so young and so new) but you can probably just trail the dog side arm and turn your chest to the line and use a verbal in the future.
The weird serps in the Lines class still had shoulder/chest rotation towards the line and bar of the serp jump (or serp tunnel exit) but the context was different than the more ‘normal’ and traditional looking serps here. The Lines class had lead changes that were less traditional but still serpentines, because the dogs were generally more advanced than the pups 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense!>> I’m not understanding very well how, what seems to me to be similar posture positions, are supposed to have different meanings for the dog in different contextual situations?>>
The other way to think of it is the dogs are reading 2 elements at once: upper body is the present, lower body is the future. So as your lower body is moving along the line and your feet/motion are saying “we are going this way!”, your upper body is saying “right now, I need you to come in and then go out”. Now, the come in is the easy part because generally the line or tunnel is creating that – the go out is the hard part.
And the Come in-go out serpentines do show up in different contexts, different angles, etc. So the upper body is pretty consistent across the different contexts and the motion is what helps clarify the line. It is the same as front crosses or blind crosses or backsides showing up in different contexts – the dogs get really good as reading the cues.>>On the “find the jump” when you throw the toy/treat over the finishing jump, sometimes you use your wshooooo sound and sometimes you don’t. What does it mean? I thought it was sort of a run by me while ignoring toy/me command? Why not the “ get it” command we are working on.>>
On the find the jump, the noise is a ‘chase me the reward is in play’ noise, as the pups are learning the skills (and the get it cue was generally there but probably harder to hear because it is not that loud all the time :)) There is no specific cue to ignore the toy – that is implied in the motion and the directionals and obstacle cues, and the added noises or get it cues mean the reward is in play 🙂
>>I’ve just spent two years trying to train a super talented, but total adrenaline junkie crazy Pyr-shep, who never misses an invitation to switch into super exciting handler focus. Through numerous talented expensive trainers we finally figured out that he runs best by making the handling as uninteresting and quiet as possible; quiet arms, quiet hands purposeful feet and especially a quiet mouth with minimal not repeated, spoken commands and control primarily thru lines and motion can produce great runs with him. >>
Yay! Glad he is doing so well! I look at it as generational differences, plus sorting out the needs of each dog. Each generation teaches us something new – for example, the previous generation taught us to get the arousal sorted out and worked through before we start sequencing and establish the parameters of rewards and excitement. So while that generation might need a quieter approach, the next generation will have the benefit of our learning so we can use the verbals and toys and fast running. As the courses evolve, we need to be able to help the dog with as much info as possible, and also teaching the dogs to work in arousal is something that we are learning to do better and better. This current generation will have an easy time with the things that we have learned from the previous generation and I am sure they will teach us new things too.
>>Oh well, now I’ve got Kipling
So now I have fortunately arrived at Agility Universe where verbals are abundant but a bit of a shock to my handling system,>>I think you will find that verbals are abundant most places now 🙂 Some of the trainers who used to use very few verbals and only physical cues with their previous generation have gone to a TON of verbals with their current generation – it is impressive and fun to see!
>>Also I mentioned that running with a toy creates some “toy attraction” issues with Kip as he seems to think the game is now about finding and getting the hidden toy!>>
I think this is worth sorting out before you do more running of courses. Sort it out on a wing or cone, where he is a little less stimulated, or on shaping an easy behavior.
>> My thoughts are that maybe just running with a big obvious non-hidden toy that has my clear “no-no” attached to it while running might be more obvious and acceptable to him than always trying to keep a hidden toy from him while running. Any words of wisdom?>>
Yes – we need to teach him to let you hold a toy. It is a critical piece of information for him and it will reduce frustration in the long term (hiding toys doesn’t really work and it delays reinforcement in training, so I think training the dogs to let us hold a toy is VERY helpful). Rather than think of it as a ‘no-no’ with the toy, play simple little wrap games and add a cue for when the toy is in play. That will make it easy to clarify and then transfers really nicely to the bigger courses 🙂
let me know what you think!
TracyTotally true about it being hard to throw earlier!! But that means you had good connection because you could see him turn his head (that becomes VERY useful throughout his career!)
>>so just to be clear is throwing the toy to increase their arousal versus having a toy on the ground they can drive independently to? because I definitely don’t want him to be in the habit of watching me for his reward delivery.>>
It will increase speed on the line as a by-product, but the thrown reward versus the pre-placed reward has to do with offering versus luring.
If the reward is out there all the time, he is mainly driving to the toy. By having you throw the the reward, he is offing driving to the *jump* and not the toy. Plus, it helps you with the cue to drive ahead, add the verbal, connect to see where he is looking, etc. So it is more about teaching the dogs how to drive ahead with the jump as the target, based on the handler’s cue.When we had the toy out ahead on the ground, the main challenge there was a self-control challenge: can he wrap the wing turning away from the toy, or would he have trouble offering the wrap in the presence of the toy behind him? He had no trouble, good boy!
Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
TracyGood morning!
The neutral position on the rights and lefts are HARD!!!! But I am super impressed that it was easy for her turning away from you. You can totally repeat the cue “left left left” to help her get going and keep going, as it applies for each jump on course. The sending and turning away looked great. On the neutral positions – if she is incorrect, call her back and use a little boring cookie to reset her line up, so she doesn’t keep offering LOL! She was insisting that it was the right turn at the end LOL!
To gradually build up the neutral position – you can have her between your feet and not on your side – but place yourself closer to the bar you want her to turn over. Then when you change directions, do the neutral line up but over on the other bar. Then as she gets better and better, you can inch your way back to center so she is not getting any help with your position. That is really difficult, and might take several sessions. She seems to be GREAT at processing verbals so far, so I am confident she will get it. And I love that she is processing them because if memory serves, you do a lot of courses that require distances skills… which also means verbal skills. She is going to be great at those!On the baby serp video: very nice! Try to stay closer to the jump as an added challenge, as that asks for a tighter turn. And the other thing you can add is turning your shoulders more to the bar so you don’t have to draw the line as much while you are running (your arm was helping with a little in and out, and I think we can fade that and let the upper body cue the in and out now). The lower your arm on the close work, the easier it will be to run like the wind (she is going to be fast!) and then you can also use a high arm as more of a distance cue.
Her wraps were *perfect*, that is a hard balance for baby dogs and she was great. Your connection was spot on and that really helped her. Just remember to use your wrap verbal on those – on the first couple you used your ‘right’ but then when you switched sides, you went to your wrap verbal.
Your speed on both the serps and the wraps was really great – moving but not running, so she could have a moment to process the cue. On the Advanced Serps, she did a classic young dog thing of “WE GO FAST” and running past the jump when you added speed LOL! Very normal that young dogs do that. So you can add “fake speed” by pumping your arms and calling her name – then gradually add in real speed by actually running.
The other thing you can do at the advanced level to add real speed is angle the serp jump towards her, so as she exits the wing wrap, she can see the bar a lot more easily and you can keep running. And then you can gradually angle it back to the ‘flat’ serp angle you have here. I don’t have that on the demo video but we did it in the live class because some of the pups were having the same question when the handlers got running 🙂
And your FC wraps looked great here too, just remember the wrap verbal versus the left or right verbal. Great connection really helped her know where to be!
Lovely work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyYay! I am excited about June!!
Yes, there are a lot of steps, which is why I play traffic cop and direct you to the next steps LOL!!!! Pretty soon, the steps all merge and you won’t feel like there are a zillion small pieces 🙂
Holy cow the picture at the end was SO funny! “I will just relax here while you get my snacks ready, human.” HA!
His one hit wonder was great!I hear that your neck of the woods is on a lockdown so you don’t have barn access – yes, keep working the one hit wonders indoors, but if there is a way to get the teeter outdoors then we can keep moving forward while you are locked down. Fingers crossed that Canada gets vaccines rolled out ASAP! If you can get the teeter outdoors, start all of his sessions with very minimal tip, as if he had never done the games before. We might be making it too easy, but better to err on the side of easy & fun in the new location, and he won’t be sad about the snacks 🙂
He is doing really nicely with his target training! When you are behind, he wants to look at you a bit – so you can have a target out ahead (toy or bowl or something) that you can sometimes release him forward to so he maintains his forward focus on the line. It is not a problem when you drive ahead because he can be focusing forward and watching you a little, so the releases forward are mainly for when you are behind him.
If you weather is behaving, definitely take this outside! And you can add an inflatable like a fit bone on the end without the target, so he gets used to driving into position on a board that is moving around a little.
And, two other things to play with, because it will happen quickly:
– you can morph this more into the bang game concept by having him only start at the very end, to encourage the leaping into position we want on the bang game (as opposed to moving across the full plank).
– You can fade the target a bit (after you show him the bang game concept here). You can make the target smaller by cutting it, or if you are outside – cover it with grass or dirt, bit by bit. You can also use a piece of white tape and just have a smaller and smaller piece over the course of several sessions 🙂Great job! He is making fast progress!
TracyPerfect! Cheese as the top value is nice because it is pretty easy to use 🙂 And I am glad he is enjoying the food, that makes the training soooooo much easier 🙂
Hi! This is actually a good session! I know you are not totally comfortable with her end position understanding yet but this session got a lot of reinforcement in for the down at the end. NICE! From what I can see, she understands that the behavior is something stationary at the end of the board, with you there to help here. That means we are VERY close to having what you want, she needs one more clarification. I think she doesn’t yet realize that we would like it very much if she puts her front feet on the target at the end then use that to lie down.
The target is a good size in terms of length and width – the thing we can do to make it a more obvious foot target is to make it taller, so she steps up onto it: that makes the foot target sooooo much more obvious because it is a step up and then she can do the down.
You can do some arts & crafts and make it 3 or 4 inches high for now (Christina with Presto did something similar for the down behavior at the end). And the first rewards can be simply for the step-up with her front feet – but when you deliver the reinforcement, deliver it low by her toes so she goes into the down to get it 🙂 Then a couple of sessions into it, you can wait til she steps up and offers the down.That is probably the last piece of the puzzle – then it will be super easy to build the other games and the rest of the teeter into it! And the target is super easy to fade after she gets the idea of it fully.
For the higher target, you don’t need to start it on a teeter or a wobble board – it can just be on the ground and she steps her front feet up on it then gets rewarded really low to encourage the down.
I know she is thinking it through because she had the one run-off moment in the middle: I think that she needed a moment because her brain was working really hard 🙂 Then she came right back and was great!
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He is going to have abs of steel!The target out ahead is serving 2 purposes – keeping his head straight and also being a bit of a distraction 🙂 He was a little stalky on some of the downs because of the level of challenge at first but then was getting faster and faster going into the down (and he was looking straight at all times, yay!) And not surprisingly, the faster you moved, the faster he went into the down 🙂
I am not worried about the one foot off that he did a couple of times – I think it was mainly him sorting out the distraction and remembering he had to weight shift BACK and not lean forward. But I loved how he was not sliding off the side – he was keeping himself tight and straight! Abs of steel 🙂 Yay!So definitely leave this target out ahead as you add more height to the bang game. And also, have it there for the elevator game, which is designed to challenge him riding the board down and getting into his position.
How is he doing with the target fading on the plank? That is something to add some focus to because he is moving along so quickly with all the other games 🙂Great job!!!
TracyHi!
This is looking great 🙂
I think you got all of the various angles and challenges, no problem!
2 little ideas on this setup – you can put an inflatable under the non-target side of it, so she gets used to targeting on a board that has some jiggle to it.
And to prep for the bang game, have her now only leap on the side at the edge while you do all of the running away or sending ahead stuff 🙂The bang game targeting can totally have more tip/height and so can the elevator game, with the target in. If the weather is good, you can maybe have the teeter outside? I know the newest lockdown is preventing you from barn access, ugh 🙁
The other thing you can do on the plank is start to fade the target on the plank (not yet on the other games involving the teeter).
She is totally ready to move forward and be putting the bigger pieces together, so if your weather is behaving itself then maybe get the teeter outside? Let me know what you think. If that is not possible, we can get creative with indoor lockdown teetering 🙂
Tracy
Ah, that is a great question and it totally depends on which dog and where the dog is in the process:
With the biggest dog? Yes, mostly all the way around.
With the medium sized dog? Absolutely, she is a little older than the pups and nailing it, so I can get all the way around on one stick of cheese 🙂
With the smallest/youngest dog? Nope! I can work the top of the clock with motion, or the body of the clock with sends, but not both.And that is fine, because I know they will all even out and be able to weave eventually 🙂
PS – I think the camera angle at the end will be perfect for when you start closing the poles, because we will have a head-on view of his striding 🙂
Hi! I agree, it is great to be able to work the different poles in different places!! It will be so helpful for the future 🙂
He was pretty perfect here – the countermotion reps made him think a little, but he got them and the rest looked easy. Yay! I think you got all sort of challenges in, he appeared to be entirely weave-focused. Yay!There are a couple of ways you can build from here:
– yes, you can click later now to see if he will stay in the poles (I am betting that will be no problem)
– you can start to fade the MM and go to thrown rewards. The MM can be there as a focal point for now, then get it out entirely 🙂
– using 4 poles…. start to tighten 🙂 Since we have a choice of 4 or 8 on the channels, I think 4 is the better option than 8 but we will go to 8 very quickly.
– you can also do the Find ‘Em game on the wings as you start to tighten the poles… a bit of ‘look the poles are tighter, good job, now try it from a wing’.It might sound like a lot of steps, but I think you will be able to combine a couple (like the wing find ‘ems going with the slightly tighter poles). Of course, if he has questions at any point, we can dial it back – but so far he is finding the channels track to be VERY easy and that is fabulous!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there!
Looking at both of these videos, I think she has a really high success rate on a wide variety of entries. Sure, there is a little difficulty on the harder ones like 4 o’clock and 8 o’clock but that is normal. She did really nicely with the meatballs – much better about not hitting the poles (literally hitting them LOL!) I think the highest rate of success with not touching the poles is when you are moving at a walk rather than blasting at a run. That makes sense – running is stimulating enough that she loses the multi-tasking of finding the entry AND bending enough to not touch the poles. So on the left side sends on the 2x2s, I think you can be jogging more, running a bit. On the right side, be moving but at a walk until she almost never touches the poles. And keep on with the meatballs, she seemed to like that 🙂 I don’t think you need to click – that was causing her to look back at you, so you can just give a verbal marker and throw the meatball (or have it in a lotus ball to throw).The channels went well! You were moving nicely and she was doing a great job finding the entry while you were moving. Yes, that 8 o’clock entry was hard – but at this point, I think everything should have movement in it, even if you are walking very slowly 🙂 You can work that difficult entry on the ‘small’ clock (meaning, 8 o’clock as if there were only 6 poles, with 6 o clock being pole 6, so 8 o’clock is more like at pole 4) and then work your way back to the big clock where that 8 o’clock entry is down by pole 9 or so.
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here!
TracyYay! You totally did move sooner! And on the easier entries, the motion was no problem at all. On the harder entries, the running plus the hard entry was hard! But it looks like he sorted it out and was nailing it by the end.
You are marking things nicely when he is correct but silent when he is wrong – you can try to give a happy marker and call him out of the weaves when he is wrong, so you don’t have to snag the toy before him 🙂 I say stuff like “cheater, c’mere!” Or “that was super clever let’s try it again”. And if he continues on and grabs the toy, good boy, I just take it back, tell him he is cute, then try again (as opposed to the engagement when he is correct and gets the toy).
He did really well here staying in, once he was in the entry. So definitely work the same concept on the other side. And also, have you played with tightening the channels a bit on 6 poles? He looks ready to me! The really hard entries can be on the more open poles and 12 poles and the easier entries can go on poles that are getting tighter 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
