Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi! I love that you even had your barrels with you to whip out for this game LOL! You are doing really well so I bet a lot of your feedback is “nice job!” – but being able to work in that environment is HUGE!! And I am glad you came to class, he rocked it! Hopefully you both slept well afterwards 🙂
Piggie to hand looks great!!! And so adorably funny LOL!! You were actually cuter than he was with your songs lol! Keep working on this, change up to different toys – and it reminds me of another game we can play to build more dead toy drive: you can shape him to progressively pull harder and harder to get it out of your hand in order to get the reward. Basically, he grabs the toy and if he pulls it out of your hand, he wins (can win a treat or a better toy). At first you make it easy for him to do that, then make it harder and harder til he is legit tugging like a fiend and you are doing nothing except holding the other end of the toy 🙂 It takes several sessions, but it really helps. I totally have video of this… somewhere. I can’t remember which dog is in the video (Nacho or HSM) so it will take me a while to find it 🙂 I will post it when I find it! Let me know if it makes sense 🙂
T
Hi! This is a really interesting video! I think there are 3 things to consider on the big barrel (2 are related :)) and then we can sort it out!
First thing is a value issue -the reward placement is from your hand, so value is on your hand – so you can take the big barrel and shape it like we did with the PNU and the smaller things, with rewards tossed out to the other side as he is going around it. A couple of sessions with all of the value placed out on the other side of the big barrel will really help!Second thing, and this is related, I think – he easily goes around the squished up tunnel and not the big barrel. In fact, his commitment to these games on the squished up tunnel is terrific! The main difference is that he can see you around the tunnel and not with the barrel – so perhaps he doesn’t like it when he can’t see you? That is related to value: you are valuable 🙂 Yay! So yes to the shaping for value like I suggested above, but you can also use something where he can see you more, like a big cone or small pop up crate or something 🙂
Third – I don’t think he likes when you give him little pushes when he gets a little frozen, he always seems to back off after those. He might go to the barrel sometimes after it, but he might also be associating the big barrel with the pushes so he doesn’t really love it. So, you can urge him on with a little ready steady game or try moving into it more, but try not to touch him as part of the game here. You can also put the target bowls in as part of the shaping game, that can help just start the game on the big barrel!I am betting he will be just fine on turn and burn as well as rocking horses on other objects as you bring the big barrel up to full value. Feel free to try it on some of the other objects and see how it goes!
Let me know if the ideas makes sense 🙂
TracyHi! Thank you, Min, for helping with distraction 🙂 This is also looking good! I think this will feel a little more comfy when you are outdoors and there are no walls to stop you, you might have been slowing down because there was a wall there LOL!
My only suggestion is to catch his eye a little sooner with your opposite arm/magic cookie hand so you can have him ready for the turn cue sooner. At a walk, he was fine with the timing, so I am thinking ahead to when he will see you running through these – if you show him the magic cookie hand on these tandems sooner, he will be able to prepare (by slowing down :)) for the turn cue sooner too. You can play with that by add more speed to your motion!Nice job!
TracyHi!
>>Question on your comment for the get out. You said:
Remember to start him behind you (stay or cookie toss) so you can move up the line and give the cookie while he is still behind you.
Give cookie while he is behind me? I thought he goes ahead and out to the prop?>>It is more of a parallel path behavior when we add motion, rather than sending him out ahead (that was just to get things rolling). So if you toss a cookie back, you can start moving and he will be moving up the parallel line a little behind you – you can then show either the get out or the come to momma cue (always easier when you are a little ahead). Let me know if that makes sense.
>>And when do I name this one?
When you have the behavior with the physical cue – and it appears you do 🙂 so go ahead and add the name. 🙂
T
Hi there!
>>What should I do when Lennan successfully moves in the direction I want when working with the prop but misses actually touching it? >>
We find *something* to reward 🙂 Because the prop is going to be faded and doesn’t need to be used in competition, we can reward approximations rather than perfection (as opposed to, say, weave poles which need to be done a certain way so we need to reward more specifically). the goal with the prop is to get the concept across with a high rate of success, then transfer to a jump. In the session: If there was a clear error, you can reward stays, sits, tricks, etc – to keep the rate of success high overall. But, also, a lot of the parallel path behavior on the prop (like parallel path, get outs, etc) is meant to emulate extension on a jump, so the pup’s approach and interaction with the prop looks different than hitting it directly. With that in mind, and also bearing in mind that we are training concepts that will be transferred to a jump or tunnel – you can reinforce correct response to the cue (such as the lead change away on the get out cue) or general interaction with the prop even if it is not a perfect paw smack. So, for example, on the rear cross – if he goes over the prop and turns – reinforce! If he turns on the flat without any effort to interact with the prop – don’t reinforce. (More on rear crosses below).
2 other things to consider:
– If you get one failure, you can ask the same question but if you get two failures… make it easier (or assess if you should be reinforcing the behavior he is offering).
– don’t use a marker if he is wrong (avoid saying the same thing, like ‘nice try’) because those can end up being punishment markers (associated with negative punishment). Instead, all him back and either re-send immediately or cue/reinforce something else.>> He wants to go faster now which I think makes it more difficult for him to actually hit the thing. Is my prop too small?
Yes, for the faster moving behaviors, I think it is so you are getting REALLY nice general interaction but not very specific paw hits. So, you can reward the general interactions (visualize them as him going over the bar) and/or you can put the prop on a bigger mat and reward anything that happens on the mat (any behavior on or near the prop). We will be off the prop soon enough and onto jumps, so perfect paw hits don’t matter right now 🙂 You can also wad the fixes – when he strides over the prop than says “oops, let me smack it!” that is clever and can be rewarded 🙂 It will not have any negative fallout when we transfer to jumps 🙂
I think his get outs look really good, you can reinforce the choice to move away and then toss the reward out towards the prop (think of it as a jump). He did well on the balance reps too!!! He was a little wide, drifting towards the prop on the balance reps, but that is normal because that prop has so much value 🙂
Rear crosses are also looking good – try to start cutting in behind him sooner. I think that you will need to start further back, so you have time to show the rear cross before he makes a decision. You were a little late on some of them, so either he didn’t get the turn til after the prop, or he was on his left lead hitting the prop and then turned after that. Good boy! Try to aim for changing sides while he is still 6 feet or so from the prop, so he can adjust his leads and then finish approaching the prop. His understanding of the RC is looking strong!
I am happy with how the turns on the flat are going – at this point, start him a little further away so you can set up your turn with more time – when he was close, you didn’t have a lot of time to set it up LOL! He was driving into the toy hand really nicely! Towards the end he wasn’t as strong as the beginning of the session, it was hard to tell why but it is possible that you were drawing hm back and turning him away in one motion, rather than 2 distinct motions like you did in the beginning of the session. He was going faster so you were going faster which made things harder to keep distinct. So, even when he is going fast, this handling move should be done slowly 🙂Nice work here!! Let me know if the ideas about the prop make sense 🙂
Tracy
Hi there! It is not uncommon for pups to avoid collar grabs or being restrained, so two approaches that might help –
you can do hand moving towards Kai’s collar or harness, and then something fun happens, either a game starts or a big reward gets delivered. That can split the desensitization of it into tiny chunks and conditioned him that good things happen when your hand moves towards his collar.
You can also do quick touches, meaning you put a finger on the collar then immediately release to a game or deliver a toy or treats.
And with both, you can gradually work up to restraining by the collar but take your time, so he is totally comfortable and enjoys it.
For driving ahead, you can try using a leash to restrain him? Leash is hooked to a harness, you hold the end of the leash, throw the reward, then race to it – he might enjoy that more than a collar grab 🙂How is your finger feeling?
Your video link brings me to your post on the the thread where you posted that cool article – can you repost the video? Thanks!!!
TracyHi! I totally feel that pain, soooooo many words!!! Pick just a few and we slap them onto existing behaviors 🙂 For super fast pointy dogs, I vote for the following:
GO (plus that is really fun)
Get out (to push him away on lines so you can run to the next one)
And wrap-towards-meSo, only 3 to start. Play with those…. then we will add more! A left & right verbal would be next on the list, then a backside and threadle verbal. But those can all wait, he is only 6 months old, we have time 🙂
T
Hi! Good question about the dog-side arm versus the outside arm:
If the verbal is well-trained and the dog really understands it – for most dogs, it will be easier to just point with the dog-side arm and the handler continues to just run forward 🙂 The outside arm rotates the chest/shoulders to the line, so the handler has a physical cue to support the verbal, which is super useful for getting the behavior with young dogs, and also getting the behavior with dogs that either aren’t great with verbals (some dogs just don’t process verbals that well) or with dogs that are really hard to push away (I have a dog like that so I always use the outside arm with him). For the dog-side arm to be effective, the verbal understanding needs to be very well-trained and well-understood, because the physical cue does not support it as well as the outside arm does.
So, it will end up being a personal decision based on how the dog picks it up (is it easy, or do they need extra help?) plus how much you want to train your verbals 🙂 I figure you are already really good a training this stuff, so you can easily get Keiko going on a dog-side arm (she seems like she processes verbals really nicely!)On the video: Great hint about the fireplace glass LOL!! And the sun spot on the floor helped provide a good running line. Keiko did really well with both the balance of sticking with you and also going to the prop. Good clicks for when she changed her lead to go to the prop! Towards the end, when you were using your outside arm, she seemed faster shooting away to the prop! Now, it might have been because the outside arm was a powerful cue…. but it also might have been that she had already gotten a zillion clicks & treats for going to it on the dog side arm LOL!! She did really well on that arm at the beginning too, so if the dog-side arm is more comfortable then I think you will easily be able to use it. Let me know if that makes sense!
Great job!
TracyAh, here is the serp versus threadle work – it is hard! She really wants you to move your upper body to cue the ‘go out’ element of the behavior, and we really don’t want you to have to do that LOL!! So an idea to get her to propel back out after the threadle or serp – you can throw something with your other hand. So if the left hand is your cue hand, your right hand can toss the reward (lotus ball or tennis ball or cookie, whatever you think she will like the best :)) so you can get a quick reward in and she won’t hesitate or want you to help. When we get you running through these, we will want her to go the in-then-out turns on her own, so hashing out how to convince her to do it without you turning your shoulders forward will be super useful 🙂 The come-in element of both the threadle and serp are looking really great!!!
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is going well – the harder angles are indeed harder, there was steam coming our of her ears! And on the super hard angles, affirming it early (just as she gets around the entry wing) will help her – she wasn’t sure, so be quick to tell her she is correct 🙂 When you were in the center of the bar and wanted the serp at the beginning, she was not as sure (she might have been asking if you wanted the threadle or not :)) so you can balance more of those back in during the session. And to help affirm that you want her to come over the bar and NOT threadle on those, you can call her name and shake your hand a little so she doesn’t think about the threadle.
Nice work!
TracyHi! This is looking good! And she LOVED it when you took off, hootin’ and hollarin’ 🙂 We don’t need much speed on the back and forth yet, the speed will come when you take off like you did. You can build on this by trying to rotate earlier and earlier. On these, you were starting to rotate away as she was just arriving at the barrel/wing. Nice! Since she is doing so well, 2 more steps to add:
– rotate away when she is one foot (approx) from arriving at the barrel or wing
– if that goes well, rotate away when she is just past you! If this is hard, you can spread your barrels out a little more so you are running into it more to help support commitment.Great job!
TracyHi there!
The lap turn is looking really good! You might need to reward directly from your hand a few times mixed in like you did at :29, when you are close to the prop – just to maintain the value of coming to the hand compared to going to the prop. His turn Aways are looking really good! Loved the quick transition to the prop on the other side of you, that was a slick way to switch sides! One small mechanics detail – don’t move your leg back until he is just about at your cookie hand, maybe an inch or two away. If you move your leg back too soon like at 1:16, you might feel awkward or sideways, because it is hard to draw him back through the turn if your leg is already back. Your timing at 1:30 with the leg step was perfect!
Tandem turns – you might have to reward him from your hand a few times mixed into these sessions on this one too, to help keep convincing him to go past the prop LOL! He went to the prop on the first one and at :39 and gave you the whippet judgemental look on some of the other reps haha! So rewarding for coming to the magic cookie hand will help him remain convinced (and be less judgey about it LOL!!!) The turn itself looked terrific! And he is going right back to the prop on the line, very nice!!!!
Serp game: you did a really nice job of being as stationary as possible while still dropping the treat into the bowl. Will he start from a stay (or a mat or Cato board) and allow you to already have a cookie in the bowl? That will make it easier. The ready treat will make it MUCH easier because you won’t have to move at all 🙂
He is showing us that he is beginning to understand the in-then-out chain and I am really happy to see that!!! yay!! So the next step is to fade out the actual touching of the hand. You can take the target out and when he gets close to touching the hand (but not quite touching it yet) – click the ready treat 🙂 That will develop more of the in-then-out and you will be able to start motion when he is happy with that.On the toy-treat games… yes, toy mechanics are hard! I agree! But totally worth it to hash it all out 🙂 What type of food are you using? You can go to lower value treats. And also try this just after a meal so being hungry isn’t a factor. A couple of ideas for you to consider –
You don’t have to reward the out with a cookie, you can reward it with more tugging!
You can do one rep of cookie to toy, and end the session.That way you have 100% success 🙂
When you do go back to the toy after cookies, make sure your hands are empty and also you should probably not have a bait bag on. That might be toooooo challenging because of all the food smells. You can have the boring cookies up on a shelf or something, give him one – then run to the other side of the room and drag the toy around (make tie 2 toys together so you can really swing it around). Being away from the cookies will make it easier to tug because he won’t be surrounded by yummy food smells. When I was working this with one of my dogs, I ran down the hall to a different room to get away from the food smells 🙂 Then when I would get tugging, I would run back to the other room for a cookie. It was a great workout LOL! And it worked nicely to get the tugging to cookie to tugging transitions going. And I gradually worked up to being closer and closer. You might not need to run down the hall haha! But the other side of the room with no cookies in your hand is a good start!Let me know how it goes – great job here!
TracyHi! Poor little paw, I am glad he is feeling better!!!
The power of the prop made the get out very easy, I am glad you added the verbal and motion. All of the stationary stuff looked great. When you added motion, on the first rep he assumed prop because you moved and released at the same time. On the other reps you were generally in motion before the release so he could see the difference between the get out and the balance reps. It was easy to do the get out and move at the same time, but much harder to do a balance rep and move at the same time because that prop is so valuable 🙂
He seems ready to have you add a little more distance here, laterally away from the prop! And you can add more motion by starting from a cookie throw back too, so you are both moving up the line (rather than starting from a stay).Rotated sends: I loved your roller audience on the couch LOL!
The forward and sideways sends looked easy! The backwards send is indeed much harder – something that helped him was when you shifted your connection to where you wanted him to go. You watch your eyes on those – at :24 and :32 you were looking behind you more than at him, compared to 1:09 and 1:19 when you were looking right at him
On the second session, he had that backwards send all figured out!! Very nice!! He just had to think it over a little LOL! When his paw is back to 100%, definitely try the rocking horses 🙂Threadles – Almost perfect! He is driving in beautifully!! I don’t think you are changing your position to help him, I think you were just relaxing your position too quickly, right after you clicker the MM. So, do everything the same but keep your upper body frozen until after he arrives at the MM and eats his cookie. You can also start to fade the actual targeting: click the MM right before he gets to the hand to help create the in-then-out threadle behavior. And you can take the target out of your hand, he is ready for that too! No worries about the one time he didn’t take the jump – your position was a little further over so it was a little harder. You can wait a little longer now for the click of the MM – rather than clicking for arriving at your hand, you can click when he turns his head back to the bar for the ‘go back out’ part of the threadle behavior.
Great job here! Let me know what you think.
TracyGood morning! Great job in class last night!
I admit that I am a little jealous that you get to go to class!!!!
And I love that you brought your barrels. – brilliant way to help him generalize the behavior!!!
Loved your connection on these. He really lies on the connection. And you can use your arms a little more for a little added swoosh but don’t sacrifice your brilliant connection – it rocked here!
He did best (in terms of focus) when you were a bit wilder with the toy 🙂 So, only do 2 barrels in a row for now – tug before and after. Those moments when you exploded away and he chased you for the toy – that was awesome! I think doing 3 or 4 in a row without much action and for cookies is a little too calming for him, so he has some “ooh, what’s that?”moments and loses a little focus. But if you tug, then do a couple, then tug – perfect! You can also now spread the barrels apart and add more running (like we did last night :))
He did a fabulous job focusing with all of the people in the room, and I am sure there are a million good smells too. Great job!!!Tracy
