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Hi!
He did really well here too! Yay!
For these backside slices, you can add a wing to the entry side of the backside – that will give him a bigger visual to go around as we add more challenge to the game.He did really well sending to the backside here, so you can move to the next level. Rather than step and send, we will have you set the line from further back with the parallel line motion. Start him from a stay facing the line to the backside (at least 10 feet away) – then you begin moving forward *then* release him with this backside verbal. That way he can see the line of motion before the release and will stay on his line to it. Your line will be towards where the wing bar meet.
When he can do that, you can start to add lateral distance and independence by moving up the parallel line further across the bar, bit by bit. That can help us teach him som really big independence on his backside lines!
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
Strike a pose:
He was really good with his engagement here even with the distractions in the great outdoors!!He was reading the serps cues really well! When you changed sides – it was 100% correct based on what you were doing: showing a threadle cue so he threaded and took t he jump. Be sure you reward all of that so he doesn’t get confused.
He is ready for the next steps where the reward gets placed on the ground before he begins the rep, so he learns to come in then go out all by himself:)
He did a great job holding his stay – just be sure that your reconnection and hand movement is *not* part of the release. I think he might think it is, because your release and hand movement/looking at him are coming at the same time. So mix in a couple of things to solidify the stay:
– get to position, put your hand out, look at him, praise….. then release
– get to position, put your hand out, look at him, praise….. then throw a reward back to him.That will help him know exactly what the release is.
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I used to think I was a decent trainer…. So many errors on my part. >
You are an excellent dog trainer! The hard part about puppy training is that it is not as systematic as we want it to be. I feel like we are all basically re-learning mechanics every time we get a puppy because we are also learning about the puppy’s specific needs and preferences. Our adult dogs have trained us already:) so it feels easy but those mechanics might not apply to the new puppy.
>Toys are tricky now as she only likes a few and it changes, But, I’ll see what else I can find that she may actually play and tug with. Dot likes chase better then tug so far.>
I think the tugging will get easier when the teething is less a part of the issue. For now, chase and grab is a good way to go and we will gently and gradually get more tugging.
The first parallel path (cookie rewards) was a really good session! She was fast and accurate, finding her jump. YAY!! And yes, there was a good noise distraction that she overcame. Plus, the session was short and you broke it off for tugging. A click/treat to you both! Keep revisiting this here and there, with you adding more and more lateral distance.
On the retrieve video: I am not sure she was retrieving to you as much as you had very fast hands to catch the toy as she was running past with it. Then when you reached for it on the 3rd rep, she was like “nope!” And went the other way LOL! Smart girl LOL!!
So to get her coming to you more and not trying to go past you – use a 2nd toy as a reward. When she picks up the thrown toy and turns to head in your general direction, only one step or two – you can be running the other way and whip out toy #2 to engage her with. She might drop toy #1 at that point but that is fine for now: getting her driving to you is more important>No hackberries were harmed in the making of this video. So this is huge progress.>
Excellent! These were lovely sessions!
Great job!!
Tracy
Good morning!
The Ace bag makes me smile every time I see it 😂 😆
This went great too, he was finding the line to the backside very well and the verbal is added. Super!!!
As you add more independence where you are further across the bar on the backside, you can toss the toy down to the landing side behind you so he looks back for the bump even as you are moving past it. I think he is ready for you to be moving up the line to the 2nd position (center of the bar) and further over to 3rd position (far side of the bar). It might need to happen outdoors or at your training facility to give you enough room.
It is possible on the front side balance reps that there was not quite enough room for him to see the difference in your line: it still looked enough like a parallel path line that he was going to the backside. So having a low hand cue really helped, and you can also save the balance reps to where you have enough room to really change the line and move away from the parallel path.
Seems like he got your hand (hard to see but seems that way based on your reaction at :41 when you were reaching for cookies). The transition of letting him keep tug while you reached for cookies was probably part of that – a little moment of disconnect and a ouchie re-grip!
You made a big adjustment which was fantastic and much cleaner after that, to help protect your flesh: at 1:09 after a tug reward, you did some outs and then a cookie toss to make the transition into the next rep. It was even cleaner and smoother at 1:50 – 2:13 for example. This adds extra focus to that transition out of tugging and I think it is great for protecting your hands!! He has improved a lot with this and seems to be hand-gripping a lot less, so definitely keep going with those clean mechanics!!
Great job 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
This is the advanced level where we mark turning the head as the pup approaches the upright: I like how he was immediately offering the head turn as he approached the upright! Good boy!!!
You can mix in helping him turn away from the second wrap (like we did in the first level), so he completes the circle and isn’t anticipating the cookie placement when you click. And you can also give him an arm & leg step to the upright so he knows that he has permission to start. Without the cue, he was sometimes lining up at your side and waiting. But with the cue, he was lovely and smooth on the way to the wing like on the last rep, that was lovely!!
He looks ready for the next step, where you are doing the 360s with your movement: a backside circle wrap.
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
Good session here! I agree – she seems to know that it is about getting her front feet on the perch. And she was thoughtful about it, which I love!
So why was she having trouble with it? I think the perch might actually be too small to let her be able to put both front feet on it in a comfortable stance. She could get one foot on it comfortably but not the 2nd foot. If you look at where she had one foot one (like at 1:44), the 2nd foot was either up in the air or on the ground next to it. When both feet were on, she had to squish the together a bit – and that probably is what her brain was devoting all of the bandwidth too: getting feet on and staying balanced.
Easy solution: you can make the perch bigger by just enough than she can get both feet on very easily. This can be 2 or 3 inches – do you have another perch like this and you can duct tape them together? We don’t want it to be massive 🙂 but it should be wide enough that she can easily step onto it without having to think about it too much.
I think the height of the perch is really good – we just need a little more room for her front feets. 🙂
Then it will be pretty easy to get her hind end moving by tossing treats to the sides so she can circle with her hind end back to front.
Nice work!
Tracy
This is so true about the peer pressure. Be sure to hang out with supportive people only! And I have found that staying off of social media helps too, so I don’t see all of these young dogs doing adult things. Even though I know it is not what I want to do, it can still mess with my head! Social media is bad LOL!!!
T
Good morning!
>>The 80% rule is a good one but I like to be a little more like 90% with adolescent dogs due to their ever-shifting adolescent sensitivities LOL! This stuck out to me – good to know, and makes sense as they start to process/remember more things.>
I believe that 80% rule came from Bob Bailey as something he taught trainers in his chicken camps. It was perfect for chickens (and trainers-in-training) because chickens are intrinsically motivated to do the tasks asked of them with the chicken feed we are holding. Plus the chickens were not adolescent and honestly, I am not even sure if hens have an adolescent brain development period like dogs/mammals. LOL!
And dogs are different from chickens – I don’t think a Dalmatian, for example, is intrinsically motivated for agility so the reinforcement needs to be really great and paychecks need to come pretty often 🙂 Or a Papillon and flyball… I don’t think there are any genetics or epigenetics or intrinsic motivation there! So being as close to 100% rate of reinforcement as possible while also leaving enough failure for the help in learning and motivation that failure is useful for.
>Skizzle and I participated in a nosework trial this past weekend. It was a great “trial weekend” for him – just 15 months now. He handled the dogs, site, people, environment quite well – not without some moments of distraction, but very good considering his baby brain. It was also a bit of a break from agility things, which is ok.
That is great! The behavior people have been telling us for a while that scent sports are great for dogs, and now there are studies confirming it!
>IDK – seems like through the legs is valuable for setups/training for agility (and obedience, etc) – where maybe I need to incorporate it more into multiple settings instead of reserving it for fetch? >
I think setting up between our feet is a good lineup for sports! I use it as a way to come into me for some control before whatever we do next – basically, the dog lines up and waits, and whatever happens next usually takes a short while (no immediate explosions LOL!) If it is only for fetch (like go between ight feet then run because we throw it), it becomes less of a line up and more of a run through to get the toy – same as a behind the back skill that people use for disc throws, it becomes associated with the high value fetch or chase game so the dogs start looking out ahead for that.
>I still haven’t sent him over a jump bar yet (only cavaletti) – so he cracks me up with his hops over the bar on the ground.>
That was so cute!!! And he did a greta job finding it! He is old enough for a bar so it is on the radar for being adding to this game soon. We do add jump organization work in MaxPup 2, which will help him get over the bar efficiently.
The backyard parallel path session was definitely his best one so far!!!!! YAY!!! He is looking for the jump now almost perfectly. You can put a pool noodle or low bump between the uprights so he has a bigger visual there and it is a precursor to a bar.
I see the rep where he went between your feet and took off running for the toy throw… he didn’t take the jump there and it looks like he ran *next* to it and jump an invisible bar hahahaha So yes, I think the between-the-feet lineup might be something you stay away from around the jump for now. A different type of lineup, like being at your side, will provide a context cue that we are doing jumps rather than the between the feet lineup which is a context cue for chase the thing 🙂
For the backside slice game – he did well staying on the parallel line to the backside! Yay! Great job adding the verbal. And he was easily able to find the ‘front’ of the bar when asked too. To add more lateral distance (where you are moving to the center of the bar) it will be easier if you are a step or two ahead. You can use a stay to get a couple of steps ahead if you think his stay is strong enough for you to release while you are moving a few steps ahead. If you want to protect the stay, you can send him to a bowl with a treat in it so you can be moving up the line just before he moves up the line.
Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning!
OMG – BASEBALL sized hail – EEK!!! I am glad you didn’t get any damage at your house. I like the non-dramatic Spot doing his thing. This went really well!>I see that you use 2 hands for your threadle wraps. I’ve been working with Lee Gibson and he has made me stop using the offside hand I used to use.>
That is perfectly fine! It is really handler’s choice, based on feedback from their dog(s). There is no one-size-fits-all approach. I found that one hand worked perfectly for all of my dogs, big and small, when I was comfortably ahead. But when I was parallel or behind? They didn’t see the one hand as well – especially the smaller dogs (I have 2 dogs running in the 12″ class) and when I was behind. They saw the 2-hand cue perfectly no matter where my slow-running-butt was 🙂 so, 2-hands it is for Sklenar doggos. And it has to be the same for all of the dogs, because I do not have the mental bandwidth for different cues when running 4 or 5 dogs LOL!
But the other elements of the threadle wrap cue involve line, motion, verbal – and that is important regardless of hand preference.
Looking at the video:
Well done on the push to backside versus front side reps!!! Your running line was basically the same (as we wanted it to be): to the wing closer to the tunnel. But the cues as he exited the wing wrap were different: there was a bit more shoulder turn on the front side of the jump cues, a bit of a softer connection and a different verbal of course. Compare to the backside push cues like at :26: more intense, bigger connection, more urgency in the verbal. LOVE IT! That easily cued the backside will allowed you to nail the timing and position of the blind at :27. Click/treat for you and Spot!!You were a little late with the push cue at :36 – he was a stride past the exit of the wing wrap and looking at the front of the jump, but he did respond to the push cue and went back out to the backside. You got the FC really nicely (good timing!) and then had a good running line and verbal to get to the TW on the wing at :39. I did not see the dog-side hand clearly as part of the cue, so you might need to emphasize it more when there are other options out there or you are not as far ahead.
The next rep of that sequence :43 – :53 was even stronger, because your ‘push’ timing was better and the blind set up the TW more easily. I think you were trying to get the TW dog-side arm cue in, but in the moment he would need it you were switching the reward to the other hand, so a reward in your pocket will make it easier for the quick hand cues.Play the next section without the sound:
Compare 1:02 where your line of motion which looked exactly like a front side cue
versus the runs at 1:11 and 1:19, where your line of motion was a big pull away and your dog-side arm swung back then dropped forward, and he got itYes there were TW wrap verbals on all 3 of those reps but the physical cue overrode it on the first one (you can see him looking at you to figure it out).
So definitely keep the shoulder turn that changes the line of motion to indicate the TW. I would like to play with getting it, without having to pull away laterally because that negates one of the reasons we like TWs: they can get us really far ahead on course!! Plus the lateral pull away in this setup put you almost in the tunnel 🙂
Things to consider – instead of pulling away laterally as he exits the wing, you can turn your shoulders and feet parallel to the line he needs to take to get the TW while you continue to move forward. That can cue the line AND keep you ahead! And of course, use your TW verbal and dog-side arm. Are you doing the arm cue as a straight arm, closed hand, kind of punched down at your side? That can fit really nicely with turning your shoulders to the line!
Because words might not be as effective in describing this, I made pictures of what I mean by the line, versus what you were doing. It is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CTxU0pZJM-9LixMdUBtkzBQ61tEd2By4YhcvjfQI7J8/edit?usp=sharingLet me know what you think!
Great job!Tracy
Good morning!
> in addition the dogs nails can really sink in deep because it’s pretty high piling.>
Deeper than good grass, or same as?
>Then I tried to move my hand along the surface and because of that high piling the whole carpet moved with my hand, up to 1/2”. 😔>
YIKES. That would explain why she slid sooooo far.
>Running Beat, yeah, it FELT like she was slipping, and I thought I could hear it, but watching the video I couldn’t actually see her feet slipping (other than the obvious). >She was doing a great job of NOT slipping for most of it, but running short, almost a bunny hop movement. I see tons of dogs doing that on turf which is why I take the unpopular position of most turf being detrimental to the dogs (even though I love it for myself!)
>I think the sound is the carpet fiber moving against itself. >
This is entirely possible. It definitely sounds different.
>I think what is happening is the dog’s brain is getting conflicting information: foot pads say the surface is stable, nerve endings in tendons and joints say it’s unstable. Recipe for disaster. >
Also entirely possible. There is SO much sensory info going into their brains that is makes sense that the brain is devoting a lot of bandwidth to the ‘don’t fall over’ stuff and not as much to the ‘read the handling cues’ stuff.
>To be honest, I hate most dirt surfaces and feel on average they are more slippery than is ideal, but at least the dog’s brain is getting consistent information about whether their foot is stable or not. >
Totally agree. There are some dirt places that I really love. But dirt takes a TON of work to get decent (I am NOT looking forward to dealing with that at the US Open) and then after a bunch of runs, it changes and can be too deep or as slick as an ice rink.
>And unfortunately our dogs need to be able to run on dirt since all national events are on it. Just like with dirt, I think they can learn to adjust for the slip, but is it worth it?>
I guess it depends on how they learn to adjust for it? On turf, they adjust by going to an unnatural stride which I think results in injury. I REALLY want all of those research people to do a SURFACE study and not be as concerned about the dog walk for now.
Dirt can also have weird issues but I see less compensation overall in dirt, Plus, I can also advocate for my dog by asking for it to be raked or stomped down if I see an issue. I definitely prefer dirt over turf (there are some turfs that I have liked in the past but haven’t run on them lately, so I might change that opinion :))
> After videoing my own hand moving with the turf, ugh, I’m not sure I even want to run Roots on it. >
I think center of gravity might have something to do with it? Beat has a higher center of gravity than Roots, which might contribute to him being more comfy on it? Plus he is adult and more experienced so might not have had to devote as much bandwidth to processing proprioception info?
>He’s never had an issue and was even moving with extra oomph than usual as even good dirt is usually his slowest surface and that’s what we’ve mostly been on. >
He did move well! And the course played to his strengths too in that regard.
>I hate “untraining” good proprioception so will have to think about it. >
Good point. I worry a lot about injury risk and wow, agility has sooooo many injuries. I was honestly shocked when I started flyball that there are far fewer injuries in flyball as compared to agility – and the predictable surface is likely a big contributor to that.
Keep me posted on what you think, especially from the veterinary perspective.
Tracy
PS – in the live chat last night, I posted some ideas to help with the jump-before-tunnel bar!
Good morning!
>Going on a long car drive to a new place can be a lot! I was so nervous!>
It IS a lot!!! And he did really well – that is why we do a lot of resilience work with puppies, to teach their bodies how to respond to stressors like long drives, new places, etc.
And yes – I can TOTALLY relate to being nervous at a puppy seminar! I used to try to calm myself down but now I just go with it and let the puppy see me being a bit nervous… that helps them recognize it as a good thing (puppy gets treats and toys even when mom is WEIRD) because I am going to be nervous at trials!
>I’ve had dogs that I thought would be OK in a new environment, have a meltdown, disengage and try to leave the ring. They wouldn’t take food and tugging was definitely not on the menu >
That is definitely harder! And those dogs need more support with resilience than Tribute seems to.
>so I was thrilled when this little guy walked into the building ready to go. >
YES!!! It is really so joyous!!!
>Some were a couple of weeks older, while many were in the 7 to 10 month range. They all had incredible startline stays and sequencing skills (through the wings no jumping). I am wondering if I am being too conservative and if I should be doing more. I>
A puppy with incredible sequencing skills at 10 months old has started learning to sequence when they were too young. It makes no sense from the neuroscience/behavior perspective to start that young. And from the veterinary perspective – it is absolutely too young to be doing it even if there are no bars. It can all lead to burnout, poor arousal regulation, etc etc
You are NOT being too conservative. It is better to spend the first year or so of training (which brings him to 14 months old, approx) getting ALL of the pieces in place (including body awareness, arousal regulation). And letting the puppy’s brain and body grow up. Then when you go to put it all together? Easy peasy and your pup will be further ahead than pups that started sequencing earlier because Tribute will have a better foundation.
> have seen young dogs that were amazing at first and then fall apart mentally when things became difficult.>
Sadly true. Physically and mentally fall apart. Poor pups!
>Question: How can I gage when to ask for more without crushing confidence and desire for the game?>
Part of it is making sure he has a very high success rate – a failure or two is fine, but repeated failures (more than 2 total in a session) is too much. And if he asks a question, we answer it with reward even if we simplify the goal (rather than add pressure or tell him he is wrong).
And part of it is making it all about play – lots of toy rewards, smiles, and laughter! And resisting doing too much repetition because that can really kill the joy.
Take your time getting him trained, ignore what other pups are doing 🙂 and enjoy the process! The long term goal is a long, happy career and partnership.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Aelfraed was in a very funny mood today. We got one great repetition to start and then he wasn’t interested in his toys any more. I tried switching to a variety of other toys and he was not into it. He was however very into his cookies today, except cookies in the dirt were extremely offensive so tossing cookies for any of the games we did was not possible.>
I agree, that first rep was great! And he was tugging hard! I was watching to see if dirt got on the toy and that was offensive, or if there was a pain response to the tugging because he is teething? I didn’t see it on the video but it might have happened after the edit? My guess is it was teething pain, poor dude – he should be at the end of teething (he’s 7.5 months now?) so keep an eye on it! You can also show him a lotus ball for cookie tossing in the dirt, because dirt is a way of life for you in the winter.
The cookies reps went great, so you can keep adding distance and speed to the rocking horses!
Parallel path looked great! I think his commitment to the line is going really well, so we can play with the reward type and see if we can get him to look at you less.
You had targets out for throwing the food reward but he was trying to track the throw from your hand more than driving to the target. This is where a lotus ball or treat hugger can help for the cookie throws, so you can show them to him separately and see which one he likes. What will happen is you’ll get one reward then have to reload and do the next rep, but that is perfectly fine because the reps will have really high quality so you won’t need do that many. The other option is to have a couple of lotus balls so he gets the reward from one, then you go the other direction and throw the 2nd one.
He did well with the ‘get out’ the prop! It is a little harder when the pup is parallel to us, because they don’t see the line of motion or cue as immediately. If you feel his stay is strong enough that you want get a couple of steps ahead, you can use a stay. If you feel that the stay is not ready for this yet, you can load a cookie target, send him to it as you begin moving up the line a bit so you can get ahead. That will also allow you to add more motion in the form of jogging and running, and I think he will like that!
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Do you think I could put a tarp under the jump for the treats?>
Maybe? But I would be concerned that she would slip on it when she was running back and forth. I think towels on either side of the jump are good landing spots for treats plus they are visual aids to get more forward focus.
>Dot thinks a lotus ball is something you grab and run away with.>
You can put it on a line – most lotus balls have a piece of fabric on the bottom for attaching a line or another toy to it.
Rocking horse video:
This is coming along nicely!>She’s pretty distracted there as she doesn’t get to wander it on her own.>
She was actually really focused until there were a bunch of failures then she left at 1:35. We ca smooth out the mechanics to make the session more ‘clean’, which will reduce failures and so she won’t be looking at other things.
>The toy was hard for her. She spent a lot of time trying to grab it rather than work. >
That is a really good toy! And you might not need the highest value toy in the living room – you can use something a little lower value But also, I think cleaner mechanics will help with her begin able to ignore the toy. At the beginning, you were sending with the big toy in the hand right in front of her nose which was tooooooo hard for now (:22). She didn’t really know where to look (she is still young, of course) and when she was told it was incorrect by lack of reward and resetting, she got frustrated and jumped up for it.
Having the toy more tucked away helped later in the session: It was up in your armpit which was good! A smaller/less valuable toy will help too, saving the extra great toys for the outdoors.
Also reward her for giving it back, rather than going directly into the next rep. The reward can be a cookie or another bit of tugging. That will also help her not jump up for it as much plus it will keep her giving it back really well.
And if something goes wrong (like she doesn’t go to the cone, or heads to the wrong side of it, etc) it is fine to assume there was some lack of clarity and reset her with a cookie. That effort cookie will keep frustration levels down and let you keep cleaner mechanics.
About the mechanics: a clean lineup and start will make a big difference.
You can line her up (cookie) take a breath, connect, then send. Reset with a cookie if something goes wrong (because this is a new behavior, it is entirely likely the cue was not as clear as it needed to be).
For example, at 1:20, you were kinda lining up but then immediately stepped into the send and she was not really connected on the new side yet so she went to the toy.
Compare to 2:21 to the end: that was a very clear, clean setup so you were both ready and that was a lovely rep!! You can see the heartbeat of connection at each stage: lineup, connect, breathe, send. BIG difference!! So nice!!!!
She did well with the serps! That last rep where she found the jump on a hard angle was excellent!!!
>The pool noodle wouldn’t stay in place either.>
Yeah, it was a pain! LOL! You can try a strip of duct tape on each side to attach it to the carpet, very lightly so it doesn’t get gross stuff on the carpet? But it ended up being basically in place enough that she was able to work the concept really well.
You can move to the next step here and have the reward dangling a bit – it adds a self-control element and also brings in toy placement to get her going in-then-out. Eventually the toy goes to the floor – but for the dangling and toy-on-floor element, be sure to use a more boring toy at first 🙂
At this stage, with the placed reward, you might see the serp behavior change: she might start to side-swipe the hand target. It will look like her coming in but also turning to face the line to the reward. This is perfectly fine and rewardable, and it is actually what we want the behavior to move to being as we fade the hand touch/target. So if she comes toward the target but doesn’t touch it – you can totally still reward.
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
The threadle session went great! Having a strong stay definitely makes the whole thing easier. Yay!!
Your ‘pose’ and looking at your target hand were great! And she did a great job reading the cues.
>Watching the video I think I need to be further off the wing for threadles.>
Not sure if you mean more centered on the wing so she can see more of you outside the line of the wing… if so, then yes 🙂 You can totally center your torso on the wing (rather than centered to the bar) so at least half of you is visible outside the wing (like you did at :52 and 1:45). If you are centered on the bar, with most of your torso visible between the uprights, then she will read it as serp (like at :33).
You can also be closer to the wing (close enough to touch it with a relaxed, bent arm) so that she bends around the entry wing and can easily see the bump/bar.
Next steps: Add the threadle slice verbal (it does release her from the stay – you can use it before you say ‘ok’ if she thinks that ‘ok’ is the only release). Also, you can replace the empty bowl with a MM or a toy on the ground so you don’t have to move to get her going to the reward. That will make it easier for when we add your motion, but helping her default to going over the bar after she gets to the correct side of the jump.
Leading with the head – this is definitely a game with harder mechanics! You can toss the treat from the clicker hand if that makes it easier.
To smooth out the mechanics, you can use the send hand to draw her further across the front of you, then turn her away to go back around the wing. Getting your hand to her nose level will help with drawing her across the front of you as well as turning away, in 2 distinct steps.
What was happening on the reps that didn’t get her wrapping the 2nd time was you were trying to pull her in front of you and turn her away at the same time – so the turn away hand was happening while she was still somewhat on the other side of the jump which is why she thought you wanted her to go back to the other side of it.
Doing the cues separately – pull her across then turn her way – was when you were most successful, like at 1:46 – 1:59 for example. Compare to right after that, at 2:07, where the cues were more simultaneous and she didn’t make the 2nd wrap. So keeping the ‘come across the front of me’ and the ‘turn away’ cues very separate will really help. It will feel almost slow motion, but that is correct 🙂
Nice work here!!
Tracy
