Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Good morning!
>I do have a question about running NFC at the local UKI trials. You mentioned having someone throw or place a reward or target to help Tarot drive ahead in trials! It never occurred to me to have a second person in the ring as a helper. Is that allowed in NFC? If so that would be fantastic since there are a lot of UKI trials in the area!>
Yes – it is allowed in UKI. You can have a ‘helper’ come in and hold the dog on the start line, throw or place a reward, or even use a target. Food rewards are not allowed, and the target must not touch any of the obstacles. But a target on the ground is allowed and also toys can be thrown! UKI is great about that.
Tracy
Hi! The session went really well! The GO reps look pretty perfect 🙂
>Hes pretty good on his rights. I think he has a lot more questions on left. >
Yes – partially it is a side preference, and also it was a cue timing question! I made a slide show for you 🙂
Because of his size, stride length, and speed, his brain is (correctly) making a takeoff decision no later than one stride past the tunnel exit. That gives him time to set up the jumping mechanics.
On the first couple of left turn RCs: when he was making the takeoff decision, you were still showing straight line cues. The RC cues started after he made the takeoff decision, which is why he turned the ‘wrong’ way but immediately fixed it after landing – he could not make the change once the takeoff was underway.
Compare to the right turn RCs – you were getting directly on the RC info line basically as soon as he was out of the tunnel. He saw it, processed it, and turned the way you wanted. Lovely timing!
And on the last left turn RC, you got the cues in at about the same time as you did on the right turn RCs, and he got it! Yay! You were also using your arms/hands there, but I don’t think you needed that – it was the timing of the RC pressure to the center of the bar that got it done.
Here is the photo evidence LOL!
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1G5W1KOm2vKdWJ2MFKwDv9lqz3PFZNXNlG7QSjDgJ6iM/edit?usp=sharingSo to boil it down: the right turn RCs had timely info, and the left turn RCs started off with late info then you were timely on the last one 🙂 Nice work!
Tracy
Hi!
I did not watch any of it – I know the source all too well to give it even the benefit of the doubt or any financial support 😉
>It was super interesting how some actual science was presented, but with interesting bias added in that if you’ve never actually examined the original science could be convincing>
That is a huge problem in seminars and lately in AI-generated posts on social media. So convincing! But also… not what the science and data are telling us. I find it all to be an ego-centered, human-focused approach to training dogs without any true study, understanding, or application of the science. The newest insights coming from research are also changing our view of reward prediction errors – just fascinating stuff! And it is all pretty accessible so I have limited patience for people who try to Teach The Science but aren’t actively studying, understanding, trying to apply what the research is giving us.
> appearing to bite his tongue when others were actually trying to use the techniques the lecturer (a different guy) was advocating for.>
Yeah…. that is a problem. He should have said something if he disagreed!
T
Good morning!
>I will try that with him. For the backing up to something do I want something flat or would a Cato board work?>
Cato board is probably a little too high for now. A folded towel might be just right!
>For the RC I am afraid the hallway is directly above this space so it would be the same length. Should I move the target more one direction>
Yes, you can move the target as far as possible in the direction that is easier to set it up. We will take it outside as soon as mother nature cooperates!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Yes, you can limit reps of break the CBs in half. Mine crumble into a million pieces! Maybe I have an extra dry batch LOL!>
Oh no!!! Mine crack in half, I wonder if it is because I forget and leave them in the car so they are really cold LOL!
The collection sandwich looked brilliant! I loved your connection with your arm back to her while she was getting the cookie. And you have QUICK FEET! You were able to accelerate, blind, then decel into the pivot all in a matter of seconds. Wow! That allowed her to drive to you, change sides, and also collect for the turn. Click/treat for you both! My dogs are wondering if they can trade me for you because my feet are not nearly as quick as yours LOL!!
You can add more room if you have an area where she can really run without slipping, as well as the Go Go Go with the thrown toy after the pivot.
>When I was doing the wing wrap in the very beginning and sometimes it still comes out. Here is your comment: She had a bit of a chain going for a couple of reps: going around the cone to her right (from your left hand to your right hand) then sliding between you can the cone to her left. That likely means she is a righty, so we can adjust things a little to help get the left turns (moving from your right hand to your left hand).>
Aha! Thanks for finding it!
On the dog-on-left (right turn) video: she started by mushing the barrel LOL and this I exactly why we start on barrels and not wings 🙂 She needed a moment to sort it out but then she had a lightbulb moment followed by a big energetic reward from you. She did really well after that! It is a new puzzle and she was definitely putting the pieces together on the right turns. Super!!! You can add a tug to to the right turns here!
>This video is about 3 min, I didn’t want to edit anything out. I understand if you can’t review because of the length.>
I am very flexible with length of video, especially when we are looking at the whole session to troubleshoot/problem solve. Thank you for NOT editing it!
This session was not too long as you figured out how to help her. Your goal here seemed to be figuring out how to get reward to her and that is GREAT. You did not frustrate her or tell her she was wrong, you were looking for ways to tell her she was correct. Love it!
She is definitely not a lefty on this game so she was really thinking about it. Steam coming out of the ears as she worked on figuring it out!
You got her moving with a thrown cookie and a go, then rewarded for finishing one around when she was on the way back to you. Clever!
Brilliant training moment to go back to the original game with you sitting in front of the barrel.
She was so funny when she offered right turns – definitely rewardable for now! And it helped her get the left turn at 2:29. And you had a strong finish shortly after that.
The only suggestion I have for you is when you do the turn and burn with her on your right (left turns) you can bridge the gap by putting a bowl out about halfway around the barrel – she might have an ‘a-ha!’ moment as the visual helps her turn to her left. Then you can gradually move the bowl further and further around the barrel until it is gone and she will send to her left.
>Didn’t want to go that long ( I didn’t realize at the time) to avoid in the future, at what point should I have stopped?>
If you were unable to get reward to her, or you were stumped on how to help her, you can stop earlier. We don’t want her to get frustrated. I think you had excellent ideas here and she was still getting rewarded, so stopping when you did was good!
One thing she is doing is sniffing her way through the question sometimes and I wanted to mention it because it is perfectly fine 🙂 She is clearing her head and problem solving! My 2 year old dog did the same thing at the same age as Sunnie – when it happened, I noted it as super interesting but didn’t worry about it. He sorted things out quickly without me bugging him 😂 and most definitely did not end up being sniffy at all in his agility or flyball.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
Super nice session on the prop here! So much good work!!!
>-Watch in real time as I realize the mistakes I’m making in this one.>
Ha!! That is exactly why we spend time on the prop: so we can sort out all the handler mechanics, markers, dog mechanics, etc – all before we add it to the real stuff like jumps and tunnels. And if we make mistakes on the prop or accidentally add frustration (you did NOT have frustration here) – no worries! We can always change the prop if needed 🙂 And we get it all done to have a really easy, happy transition to the jump.
The adjustments and engagement are what really makes it a lovely session: she got a high rate of reinforcement as you adjusted what you were doing. Love it!
For the sending: She sent really well. My only suggestion is to center the prop in the area on the sends so she can turn towards you and not away. The couch was blocking her from turning towards you on the sends, so if she has more room you will get turns in each direction more easily.
The parallel path went really well too. Switching to the thrown reward really helps get more independence. So when it stops raining, take this outside! That will give you more room to add more distance 🙂
Great job with the reward placement on the backing up! The warm up on the flat went great and she is really thinking about moving back.
>For a few sessions she was working her back legs even harder by strategically backing up to avoid the mat – but we made some baby steps in the right direction this time.>
I was very happy to see her get totally on the mat as soon as you put it down! She didn’t seem to be avoiding it here – maybe she just didn’t know how to lift her back feet to get up on it so she was backing up a bit sideways. So you can help her out – since puppies are very front-end oriented, you can lure her to get all 4 feet on it – then lure just her front feet off of it. Then wait for her to step her front feet back onto it. That might be the lightbulb moment: “oh, I need to LIFT my feet!” So do a few reps of that and when she is easily stepping back with her front feet – you can lure all 4 feet off and see if she gets her back feet bck on directly.
Great job here! She looks great!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I wonder if I should try “spinning the room” and make my left side be on the blue & green yoga mat side too?
Great idea!!! Definitely try it! For science. 😂
>I introduced the beginner Pattern Game. I think we has giving me good attention between treats.>
The pattern game went great! He is so little that he really has to lift his head up – but that is actually really good for arousal regulation (changing the plane of the head helps the parasympathetic system regulate arousal).
You can keep moving this game around – first try with different locations in the house or yard. Add in having him on leash because when you play this in the real world he is likely to be wearing a leash – and the leash is a pain to hold 🙂 When he has some more experience in new places at home… try it in a new place entirely! Road trip!
The collection sandwich game went really well!
>My turn is wide, I need to pivot more instead of taking steps to turn. >
That is the only suggestion: decelerate immediately when you do the blind, so he sees it and collects. That will help you pivot more plus give the info to him sooner. You were in fast motion the whole time so he was surprised by the turn and that is wide he was a tiny bit wide.
When you decelerated a :45 and :52 for example, he turned really well!
>We started with the cookie toss, blind cross & collection turn. Then I showed him the pivot & the thrown toy. >
He did a brilliant job and I agree – I was super excited to see him go to the toy after all the cookies! YAY!! So terrific!
>I did see his enthusiasm diminish as we went along. It could have been that he was tired & it was a lot for him by then.>
I don’t think it was lack of enthusiasm – his engagement was still really great! He really wanted to keep going! But I do think he was hot – it is a lot of running for a little brachy dude and it is starting to get hot in Florida! You can see his mouth open and his tongue getting curled.
It will take him a little time to acclimate after a cold winter. And you can also do one minute session then an a/c break to cool down, then back out for one more minute, tops, in the sun. As the games add more running, you can change up the length of sessions and stick to super short with lots of breaks to keep him cool.
Does he like water? A dip in a cool baby pool can help keep him cool too!
>Do you think we are ready to try the Novel/Exciting Stealth Self Control games or should I do a few more sessions with some novel/neutrals?>
I think you are ready! You can start with boring exciting things LOL and have it far enough away that it is easy! But I think he is ready for it 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
What a fun and informative session!
>I left the beginning in the video so you could see his immediate interest in the area where the toys were piled on the workbench. Interaction! >
So cute! And definitely interested!!! He looked like a kid on Christmas morning 🙂
That first toy was a definite winner and you were great about keeping it low and moving it away. Super! What was the dark fabric at the top of it? That seemed to be a texture he really liked.
He got a little tired by about a minute into the tugging, so you can aim for 10 to 15 seconds of tugging, then put the toy away even if he still wants to tug. Leave him wanting more 🙂
He gave GREAT feedback on the 2nd toy (braided flannel): a big instant NOPE. Good to know! But he was still interested in playing, and that is great. You can use the braided toy as a handle for the other better toys, making them all longer so you can swing them for him to chase even more with you needing to also move.
3rd toy, sheepy fleece toy was also a big winner, he was definitely into it! I agree that this might be his favorite/ And it is a nice texture for baby puppy mouths who are teething. He got tired after about a minute here too – good to know! Keeping the sessions short and sweet will be key to the toy play.
4th toy: rabbit pouch was also super fun! Many dogs love fur toys. And I like the bungee handle because it is easier for me shoulders and back to tug as they get bigger and stronger. I am sure he smelled the lamb lung but was definitely pulling on the toy like a tug toy.
>I think it is best to let the lotus ball be the only toy/food combo.>
I completely agree! And the lotus ball provides a ton of flexibility in how you reward: you can throw it to get a food reward placed on a line, or you can tie it to a line to swing it for him to chase and grab 🙂
And for now, keep the food training sessions separate from the tugging with toys – his food value is very high and it is overpowering his toy love. So the lotus ball and food can be used for much of the training, and you can separately keep playing in short bursts, and use the toy for some of the faster moving games that don’t need food (like short bursts of toy racing).
It is totally normal to have toy play and food rewards stay separate with pups (all of my dogs need this at some point too) and as he grows up, we slowly bring them back together (no rush on doing it though, he is doing great with his training!)
Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning!
Backing up is going really well!!!
That 2nd rep was GREAT – the lower hands made an instant difference! You can toss the treat to him instead of walking it to him. When you got a little further away, he still used his body really well but didn’t find the mat as well. No worries, you stay closer for now and we will also be adding to this game soon 🙂Looking at the prop games and rear crosses:
>Can I get him to drive ahead of me on this one so that it is easier to get behind him?>
Yes, we can get more driving ahead which will definitely make the RCs easier. It has to do with how you place the reward based on which skill you want.
Looking at the sideways/countermotion sending – you were sending really well so he had a nice snappy hit of the prop, followed by the reward from your hand. That is ideal for this behavior: we want a turn, so having the reward come from your hand works great!
Going back to the parallel path and RCs: this is where you can throw the reward out ahed, past the prop, so he doesn’t focus on you as much. On the parallel path game at the beginning of the prop session, you were rewarding from your hand so he stayed next to you.
We can flip that: as you move along the line and he hits the prop, fling the cookie reward out ahead so he leaves you to get it 🙂 You will see that he will drive away to the prop (as if it was a jump) very independently. Then when you start moving forward, he will drive ahead of you – which is where the RCs get much easier. If he drives ahead, you can cut behind him easily to get the RC (and continue to throw the rewards out on the line so he doesn’t want to stay near you).
When you did the RCs, he was understanding to turn away. Super! So I think getting him to move to the prop more independently with the thrown rewards will make it even smoother 🙂
Nice work here!!
TracyGood morning!
His stay is off to a good start!A few ideas for you:
We can get more stay behavior if we change the placement of reward:
Don’t go back to him to reward from your hand – that makes him want to be near your hand, so adding distance is harder 🙂
Instead, as you move away and he holds the position, throw a reward back to him. I use a ‘catch’ marker (even though the dogs don’t need to actually catch it LOL!) and when I throw it back towards them, they can move to get it. Then I reset and start over. The reward can be a cookie or a toy!
Start with just a step or two, then mark and throw back to him. That will get the stay and the release!
I bet he can also do it without the Klimb – you can cue a sit on the flat and play. That way you don’t have to fade out the Klimb and transfer it to the floor.
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
>In the layering game, I was wondering at the time if I should have been saying jump but I wasn’t quite sure as the only cue I could hear on the demo video was go. We tried it again using the jump cue which he seemed to respond nicely to.>
He did great here! I didn’t want to start with the jump cue in case it all went sideways and he didn’t find the jump 🙂 He said it was easy, so you were easily able to add the jump verbal.
You can also add in a parallel line to the wing on the other side! And sometimes wrap the first wing tight and cue the tunnel instead of the layering.
>Aelfraed says that working on stay is much easier with the help of a station. Even with the slightly squeaky brother behind him. This was an unintentional hard distraction.>
Hard yes! But if I recall correctly, there were a LOT of good sessions at home when his big brother was on a station in the area, and Aelfraed was great about ignoring him. So it was a little hard but not unfair and he was GREAT! And he will experience dogs whining behind him when he is o the start line at a trial or even a class/seminar, so it was actually a rally good, real life exposure 🙂 He was super successful! And since he was able to release with speed and not slipping (the mat was not sipping either) you can mix in having the mat there to help with stays during other training sessions.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
>I did the wing close because he wouldn’t send from farther >
Work the connected send, and reward it with a thrown reward. If he is not going to the wing, the connection is likely the issue.
>As far as wrapping- it’s not likely to happen. I train in five minute bursts. It’s just not feasible.>
That’s relatable – it gets faster in terms of wrapping (take me 30 seconds with Hot Sauce now) but it needs to be practiced consistently.
> Maybe spray is warranted. He only slips IN the tunnel when he has to change leads.>
You have to do something. My guess is you only see the BIG slips and they are in the tunnel, which is of course affected by footing/appraoch to the tunnel. But he slips on the turf too, and has to adjust his movement which is less obvious.
>And it can’t be just me having to do it. Meaning, Am I the only one with dip sh*t dogs? I can’t believe in that concept. >
>I’m not trying to be confrontational I’m just not understanding why it only happens with my border collies. What am I doing wrong?>Your dogs are not dipshits – maybe you are the only one getting your dogs worked on and you see these issues. I see poor movement all over the place in agility, but the handlers don’t have their dogs worked on or checked out. You might be the only one who has body work or ultrasounds or sports vet checks done, so you will be the only one who finds issues. That doesn’t mean issues don’t exist – it just means others are not looking for them.
Many dogs will have underlying issues (such as trashed shoulders) and it shows up as things as changes in movement, slower times… but also these dogs might get more frantic and overaroused. Many dogs will continue to work
> but it does not mean they are sound. If I had lots of extra money, I would take the dogs that get frantic/overaroused or stress ‘low’ in agility, then dog MSK ultrasounds and physical evals. I don’t think these dogs have had that but it doesn’t mean the problems don’t exist.
>With the find the jump- I should not need a go to exit him out of the tunnel?>
You can work on being anywhere including the exit of the tunnel – but for now a little more onion closer to the line will help a lot.
T
Hi!
>I still struggle with encouraging Tarot to drive out ahead of me (she want s to turn and flank) and she will still occasionally run past an obstacle but this 4th time around was much improved over previous runs. >
You can play lots of toy races (using food or a lotus ball is fine :)) with Tarot, but add in doing it with a jump! And when you are behind her, make sure you are keeping your arms down and connected to the back of her head (or her butt). That can help a lot!
Also, if there is UKI in your area, you can enter NFC and have someone throw or place a reward or target to help her drive ahead in trials!
>The video I am sharing is not of one of our runs but the warm-up. A while back, I attended a workshop with Bobbie Bambhree at Y2K9s and she talked about these dots. Tarot trends towards high arousal and this dot game really helps her to settle. >
Yes, the pattern games with targets are known to help reduce arousal/anxiety by giving the dogs a focal point to reduce scanning the environment. She is doing really well! Just be sure you are standing still to let her offer rather than to move to help her 🙂
One other suggestion is to hold the leash rather than step on it, in case she scoots off. If you are holding it, it is easy to gather her up. If you are stepping on it, she will get accidentally yanked on the neck which we don’t want of course.
You can bring 2 of these dots ringside and play right before you go into the ring!
Have fun, keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
OMG! It was so windy! I think she liked it – full of energy and speed! Fun!
She was definitely getting the idea on the RCs – there was a pretty massive difference in the straight line cues a the RC cues, from the moment she exited the wing wrap. Super!!
First right turn RC was a little late (looked like a straight line cue for a few steps) but then you got the timing in better and did great. It was fun to see you be able to switch back to the left turn RCs and she still got it immediately. SUPER!
The only blooper was at 5:20 where you ran straight almost all the way to the straight line wing – then did the RC info after she was already thinking it was a straight line. You were earlier on the next rep so she got it but even earlier & clearer on the last rep, so she nailed it. Yay!
>but still felt a little cramped so I’ll need to keep working on that. >
Part of what was getting the RCs successful was that you were setting the line with deceleration at the wing, then driving into the RC. We will keep doing that when she is running grown-up sequences 🙂 And that cramped feeling is what we will need to plan for on a lot of courses with her speed and stride length! You did great getting the info to her!
The serps are going well too – she was definitely ready to run 🙂 The hardest part might have been the snd to the start wing – that helps get you up the one to the serp! The best sends were when you had a TON of eye contact and very little arm pointing. She was not super fast on the send to the wing at first (probably because it turned her away from where she knew you were going) but then she caught on and added a lot more speed. The other side was really lovely! Great sends and great serping!
>. I realized after watching that I was rewarding her with the tug at my hand rather than having her go out to the tug, oops.>
No worries, it was lovely serping! You can add that on the next session, and you can also add moving the start wing even further away by a few feet: that will add more speed and also challenge you to get the send to it from even further away. Fun!
>We did some Diamond game too but I had to move the camera to a different spot and it was so windy it kept blowing over there, and some wings too, LOL. >
Yes, Mother Nature was not cooperating. But the rest of the training looking lovely! Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
Serps – You are good at serps! They might be your frenemy 😂 but this session went well overall! I think having the wing so close to the jump made it harder for the first few reps – being so close, it is really hard to show the cues & position while also giving him time to process it. The last couple of reps were super good because you did show all of that! But you can also move the wing away a couple more feet to give hm and you more time.
About that wing – don’t be pointy when you send to it. When you pointed at it without a lot of connection, he did not go to it (because it turns your shoulders to the backside of the jump, not the wing). When you were very connected with minimal pointing? He sent to the wing beautifully. Little dude keeps you honest haha! And if you accidentally fling your arm/point so he goes to the backside of the jump instead of the wing, reset with a cookie because he is actually correct there.
Zig Zags –
>We did it but I needed coaching on which side to be on !>
It takes a village LOL! He can definitely make the lead changes, so it is a matter of how early you give the info.
His stays are looking strong which really helps! It will be easier if you don’t turn your back on him or face forward on the lead out. You can face him and cue the zig zags – those reps went great! When you did it more like a lead out pivot where you were facing away and then had to do a full FC, the cues were a little late and harder for him to read. You can still reward him – he was right each time, based on what you were doing on the release.
Lookng at the find the jump video:
>I have a lot of worries about tunnels since that’s how Ella blew out her shoulder.>
Poor guy!!! Hard truth: the escalation in shoulder injuries in dog agility (Border Collies in particular because of their hypermobility) is most likely directly correlated to the escalation of using synthetic, flat surfaces.
So you need to have something on his feet every time he runs on turf. Is it a pain in the ass to do it? Yes! Is it helpful to protect against injury? YES which is why it is worth being a pain. Wrapping with powerflex so it covers from his stopper pad to his large pad (leaving toes unwrapped) is my preferred way – my Mal/Whippet mix wears rubber tape over the powerflex to prevent the slipping.
If you don’t want to wrap, you need to spray his feet with one of those sprays or water of Coca Cola or whatever prevents the slipping. Sprays are easier and faster than wrapping, so use that if they work (they might not all work so you need to experiment with which one is best). But not doing something going to get slipping which is where the repetitive injuries come from. It is unavoidable and also protects the dogs from slipping/wrenching themselves when going to toys. Just.Do.It. and don’t make Auntie Tracy wag her finger at you!! Maybe in May I will do a session on How And Why To Wrap Agility Dogs For Turf Training. And at trials on turf, they all need to be sprayed. I had already been suspecting this and have gotten the lecture about it from Canapp TWICE (and I am sure I will hear it again haha because we are getting ready to do collaboration thing with him!)
He did well finding the jump when he knew you wanted the jump 🙂 On the first few reps, I think you were too far away, too decelerated, and too quiet 🙂 so he looked at you. When you were further ahead and closer, he was getting it really well! My favorites were the rep at 2:20 and the last rep – clear and connected! You can be adding more motion here to help support the drive to the jump, especially as you add more and more distance.
Nice work here!!!
TracyPS – wrap or spray his feet. I will keep bugging you 🙂
