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Good morning!
>>>>>>So did you have to give yourself any time outs from electronics? LOL!
I received 2 penalties. One was time out from electronics, one was picking up shit in the backyard. My wonderful husband typically does that, and he was certainly lovin you that day!!>>>HA!! You’re welcome, Doug LOL!!!!!!!
>>>Also, she really likes the ball as part of this game. Super high value rewards. Yay!
The tennis ball is Wilson’s fav. I tried it early on with Demi and she hated it. I never went back. Guess I should have! It has been awesome in weave training.>>>I guess she likes it now LOL!! She was SO FAST. It was super fun to watch.
>>>>you are bending over a lot and I think that is slowing down your running.
I will try to address this. I have always done it, and it bothers me. Time for a change.>>The key is going to be finding what feels comfortable for you, while allowing you to stay connected – if you run more, you will find that zone. I think you were hovering a bit 🙂 and not running a lot, so ended up a bit bent over. Now, if you are comfortable running and you are connected and you are bit bent over… that is perfectly fine. Some of the best handlers in the world run a bit bent over! So find what makes you comfy and go with it 🙂
T
Hi!
Bearing in mind that everyone can define their verbals differently:>>’m a little confused on right/left verbals….I thought they were more for soft or 90 degree turns. On the serpentines the dogs are doing more of a wrap as they send away and come back in for the serp. So I am trying to decide what the verbal should be for my handling vocabulary or at least understand when/when not to use a directional cue.>>
I define my left and right verbals as “loose turns” where the dog makes roughly a right angle of turn (L-shaped). The dog does NOT come back around the wing in a tight angle on my left and right turn verbals. So, on a 3 jump serpentine, I send him away on my right – he turns left (L shaped) over jump 1, then right (also L shaped) on jump 2 to 3. He never crosses the plane of the wing he just took, so he isn’t wrapping.
I use noises (tststs and choochoochoo) for my wrap verbals, which as U shaped turns and the dog comes all the way back around the wing in a tight collection (very close to the wing, not eventually coming back around it). So on a 3 jump serpentine – he is not wrapping because he never comes back around the wing into the gap. I might use the wrap verbal on a threadle, though!
Let me know if that makes sense.
TracyGood morning!
So did you have to give yourself any time outs from electronics? LOL!
Holy cannoli she was BLAZING on the Go lines. And on the turns! You’re going to need to go shopping for roller skates lol
She pretty much nailed everything here – she lost her line and ended up backside line at :52, you might have been a little closed forward in the connection and blocking the jump a tiny bit – you were further over on the next rep and she nailed it.
On the turn cue at 1:20, when she went straight – your shoulder was closed forward so she did not see the line change. It was a moment of you seeing her but not connecting to her. Scroll back and compare it to what she saw at :34 and :44 -arm back and lots of eye contact and she saw the turn clearly. You had more connected at 1:27 on the next rep and it made a big difference to her.Also, she really likes the ball as part of this game. Super high value rewards. Yay!
On these tunnel turn games: now add in more of your motion so that you get used to driving her in and then driving away on the lines, while maintaining your connection.
On the running rewards sequence:
first rep – she had to collect on jump 2, tried hard, didn’t quite jump high enough. Same thing happened at 3:12 – but I think you were stopped then suddenly pulled away there, so she tried to adjust in the air. Then you turned too much and closed your shoulder forward and a bit too lateral from the line – and you said tunnel to the tunnel, not to her 🙂 Your feet were also pointing to the end of the tunnel she took. So she ended up in the wrong spot. This also happened at 2:50. You were good to reward her! I know you were not fully on board with the reward there LOL! but still be happy because handling errors are always human errors… so happily reward her and don’t beat yourself up 🙂The reps at 2:38 and 3:00ish were GREAT – you were connected and moving along the line, rather than trying to pull away. And she nailed it. Yay! And wowza, she has a new level of speeeeed, I love it!
Speaking of speed… you are bending over a lot and I think that is slowing down your running. You are probably bending because you are working the connection a lot, which is great! You can play with being able to be a little more upright and connected – whatever feels most natural. Having your dog side arm way back, pointing to her toes, when you are ahead might allow you to be more upright and stay connected – play around with it and see how it feels!
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
I am glad you posted these! I love serp training and there are about a million ways to do it 🙂 Feedback from the dog is always welcome and we can tweak things to help him see what we want 🙂
I am not a barrier girl – I find that barriers make us think the dog is understanding but then when the barriers are gone… dog doesn’t understand LOL!!! We tend to use barriers to try to get the full behavior when we will be better served to go back to earlier steps and figure out what the dog isn’t understanding. So I don’t use barriers at all. I agree, though, that we don’t want the mistakes, so here are a couple of other options:
Using the pet tutor was 100% the right choice for him on the 2nd video. The ball was just too stimulating – motion is stimulating plus the ball, so as a Border Collie, he didn’t know how to drive into you and resist the ball. It is an impulse control struggle for sure! So –
A couple of things to build the joy of serpentines:
take it to the flat, away from wings/jumps/barriers. Put a toy on the ground on your right side, and ask him to do a nose touch to your left hand. Your body can simulate serp position but it doesn’t have to – basically, it will help him understand the impulse control of – come to the hand, not the ball, in order to get the ball. If the ball is too hard, start it with the pet tutor. Then go back to the ball after a couple of successful sessions.
If he can do it on the flat – take it to a wing. Add motion while on the wing – but he will need to touch your hand in order to get you to hit the PT or cue the ball grab.
No worries about having him touch your hand for now – it is just to build value for driving in. The chain in in-then-out will be super easy when he loves to drive in.The other thing you can do is one jump without a toy or PT out ahead – just come in towards the momma. I suggest having him touch your hand on the first couple of sessions as he comes in – I think he will appreciate the very clear ‘thing to do’ at first. You can reward that with a cookie then swtich to a toy from the other hand after he is happy to drive in. Then it will be easy to fade that and add in the reward on the ground out ahead.
After a wing with motion, the skill can go back to a jump. And then 2 jumps, When he understands it on a wing and one jump with motion, the rest will be easy peasy! If you are tempted to get out the barriers… go back a step LOL!
The first rep of the big pinwheel tunnel sequence was lovely!! Connected, all the good verbals, FAST!! And a nice turn on the tunnel exit. Yay!
I have no idea why he left after the tunnel on the 2nd rep – something caught his nose and smelled good? Go and Ro sounded too much alike, he realized there was an error and needed to sniff? I do plan to keep bugging you to use something different than Go and RObie 🙂
FC rep: speaking of bugging you about Go versus RO – you said a clear GO and he exited looking at you at :37.
On the FCs – you were actually too early 🙂 Early is good though as long as you are driving forward! But being early slowed him down for a couple of reasons here: by working to get the outside arm up so early – you ended up moving in a bit of a parallel direction towards the 3rd jump rather than a diagonal towards the tunnel – so he went wide over the pinwheel jump, matching your parallel motion. Also, by being a bit too early you ended up facing him and stationary, so he didn’t drive in. On your swing at :37 and :52 – send him to the pinwheel, turn to the tunnel and run forward for a couple of steps – the send to the pinwheel happens when he lands from jump 1, so you will send then leave (with connection of course) – he will see the acceleration cue and 2 thngs will happen: you will drive back towards you faster and you will get to a better position. Then when he lands from the pinwheel jump you will be able to execute the FC – still nice and early but with more speeeeed 🙂 and you won’t end up standing still. You’ll still be on the new arm nice and early and get a great turn but with speed in and out of it. Let me know if that makes sesne – it will still involve the outside arm coming up as you were doing.Nice running rewards on the exits of the tunnel on these – wheeeee! Great job!
TracyHi!
>>His grabbing stuff isn’t all operant yet for all situations, but I’ll take it as a good thing. Pat Miller had a dog, who it was hard for her to keep from picking up rocks. She got it to the point that Bonnie used rocks as a form of currency and brought them to her for treats, but at least she wouldn’t chew on them anymore
Exactly! Grabbing stuff to trade for a treat is far better than grabbing stuff to eat. I will take it!!
I agree that stimulation helps but not always – it is more of a proprioception thing: “how do I do this, mom?!?” 🙂 I think as soon as we can wake up his understanding of pushing from the rear, he will be able to bounce the whole thing. So a suggestion for a different approach:
let’s do it first as a bent set point. He was doing fine bouncing the set point if I recall? So… let’s bend it and transfer the bounce 🙂 It will be 2 of the 3 jumps of this bending grid, on the angle you have here with the 3 foot distance (just remove the 3rd jump). Get him pumped up, then ask him to stay/stay relatively close to the first jump. Plop the toy out past the 2nd jump – straight at first, to get him to bounce it with the jumps angled. If he can do that – then you can repeat the process and gradually change the placement of the toy, so it encourages more and more bending on the bounce. Doing just a couple of reps while he is excited will help! Let me know if that makes sense!Nice job 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
These serp sequences are indeed difficult! They are training sequences and they ended up going really well! Try to be careful of where you have tunnel entries – the red tunnel was a bit of a visual draw for her that made it harder.
1st rep – good handling good reward!!2nd rep – starting with her at :18 made you late to show her the line to 2 so you had a little zig zag. Give yourself a little lead out to make it easier. Nice handling on the serp line!
3rd rep – she missed the middle jump at :30 here. I think a few things caused it – a little bit of delay on the info 1-2 by starting with her, plus the visual draw of the tunnel, plus you turned your shoulder forward. The toy grab was funny though LOL!
4th rep – MUCH better position on the upper body for the serp, great job rewarding that!
Last rep had all the elements – slight lead out so you had clear info 1-2, so she had a great turn on 2. Good serp cue! You moved in towards the last jump a bit more than needed, so be careful not to pressure in, just keep running straight.The tunnel sequence is SO HARD, right?? That was Voodoo in the demo and you can see how hard it was for him as an adult 🙂 The visibility of the 3rd jump makes it pretty hard. Breaking it down was smart – your motion was fine when you started it but she needed to look at it without motion at first, that really helped. When she is coming from the tunnel, you can also slow down – you were moving pretty fast and either it was a little too fast or she got ahead 🙂 So send waaaaaaay away to the tunnel so you can trot through it. Your connection looked really good throughout! And you can also add verbals – calling her name or left/right verbals to help out.
Nice work!!!
TracyGood morning!
This is looking really good! She is showing excellent commitment to the lines – is she barking at you? LOL! She is getting pumped up 🙂 One general note is that you don’t need to call her at the tunnel exit – it turns her attention up to you when we want her to go go go to the jump. A go verbal or a jump verbal would help her not look at you. The crosses look GREAT! I looked at each of them to assess timing: your timing ranged from really good to freakin’ awesome Yay!!
FC: the timing at :05 good. :16 even better! BC timing: Blind at :29 was super! Same with :41 and :51 and 1:03.
On all the crosses you were finished before she took off, and she was reading it because she was turning before she took off. Happy dance!
So – onwards! You can do 2 things with this setup:
spread it out, so she has longer distances between jumps. That will actually give you more time for the crosses – you had very little time on the shorter distances and still nailed it.
Give her a bar to jump – first on the easy jump (the one after the tunnel). Then next session, one of the harder jumps can have more bar (the pinwheel jump or the cross jump) and eventually all 3 will have bars.Great job!
TracyGood morning!
All of these videos looked super! Yay!
One jump serp looks good! Just move the toy further away if it is placed on the ground, he is landing on it2 jumps on left – very nice! Your line of motion was spot on, perfect upper body, and the angle of the jump really helped on the first couple. And you maintained it when you flattened the jumps – note how well he read the line to jump 2 without you needing to step to it.
2 jumps on right – also very nice! You were dipping your shoulder here (maybe looking at your hand or back for connection) on the serp jump and I don’t think he needs it anymore – you can maintain the position and look at him, see how he does with that!
3 jumps – looks good! the slight angles are helping but he also did fine with the flat lines. Your line of motion was exactly right which really helped him out. You were super connected – as with the 2 jumps, leave your upper body open but see if you can fade the dipping shoulder – just look at him with your arm up. I suggest it because it will allow you to run faster. You can also add verbals to this – left/right or soft name call or a jump verbal, just to be able to name the behavior. We add more to this tomorrow!
He did well on the bending grid, I don’t think the height was a problem at all. In a few dayss, try the middle bar at 8″. Also, you can keep turning your shoulder so he turns on the 3rd jump as well. He is following your line of handling, and you were facing a bit straight over 3 so he didn’t really turn. If you keep turning as if you are going to have him take 1 again, he will continue to turn over 3 as well.
Great job!Tracy
Hi!
I think he is doing fine on the tunnel exits – I prefer young dogs to come blasting out as opposed to turning too tightly 🙂
First rep – Go – terrific! Very nice.
Second rep – the last thing he saw before he entered was you facing forward, which is the same cue as the go cue – so he came out turned.
Third rep – I think you were working harder to get him to turn by getting to the tunnel exit faster – so before he entered, he saw you moving straight, faster 🙂 which means accelerate more on the exit.
So to work the turns, maybe put a cone out 3 feet away from the tunnel entry (off to the side, so he passes it and you can see him passing it). When he gets to that 3 foot marker, you turn your feet, call him and move the new direction. That should immediately tighten up the exit because he will see it before entry. He was great about changing lines when you connected when he exited, so I am confident he will read the earlier turn cues really nicely 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense!!T
Hi!
Skye says the bending is hard!! He has his head turned and is sorting out his leads but yes – we need to convince him to bounce these 🙂 He was starting to get it coming in from the wing wrap on the first wing wrap rep at :55 but he couldn’t quite get it sorted out so went to adding a stride. That is a smart way to sort it out! So now we can tweak the grid to help him choose the bouncing – the two things I suggest for that are
– lower bars or, better yet – jump bumps if you have them. Even with low bars, he will hit/drop them so we can use something that is not displaceable.
-shorter distance between the jumps. The grid distances are just general suggestions, and then we tweak based on individual needs. So we can play with distances to see where we get the bouncing: start with 3 foot distances and see. If he bounces, we can try 3.5 feet or 4 feet. It might take some trial and error to find the bounce distnce and that is fine – we can find it then we can gradually expand it to extend his bounce distances.Looks like he was a happy dude coming in from the xpen, lots of good toy play!
>>I did these over the course of 45 minutes with trips to the expen or snuggle time, walking a path, or ball throwing.
That might be why he was more interested in eating stuff at the end – even with other activities in that 45 minute period, he got depleted (any activity will deplete a dog). So if you have 45 minutes of time to train him, I suggest rest breaks only – train for a minute, rest for a few minutes, train for a minute, etc. The ball and path walking can be at the end. Rest can be some sniffy walking for a minute or two or just chilling in the xpen. Does he like to chew on bones? He can chew in the xpen, that is often a great relaxation tool for dogs between turns.
>>is he now eats stuff to get me to ask him to “drop” (which he does really, really, well.) so he gets attention or a cookie.
It is entirely possible that he has switched into more of an operant process on this, rather than the reflexive response – and that is a GOOD thing! The reflexive response was either environmentally triggered (see mulch eat mulch) or triggered by anxiety/stress – not sure we know 100% why. But… if he is choosing to offer the behavior of picking something up to get attention and a treat, it generally means we have left the realm of anxiety/stress/environment issues and are in the ‘normal dog training’ realm. Happy dance!!! So, honestly, I would continue to reinforce operant decisions in those moments for now 🙂 You can try to head them off by watching him closely in situations where he might grab something to get the cookie. When he looks away, call his name and give him the cookie or toy (before the grab). Then you can shape it to him offering looking back at you in those situations – for big rewards. Let me know ifthat makes sense – this shift is a very good thing 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
I feel your pain about the rain – May was insane here! Hopefully June will be better.On the running rewards – yes, he is totally GAME ON at the start line!! So now you need to protect his happy stay like it is gold (because it is :)) Broken stays that are fixed can create stress at the start line (and lower the success rate) and broken stays that are not fixed will also cause stress because at some point you will want him to stay – so the key is to make it a goal of always releasing before he breaks. You can release forward into the sequence, or release forward to the toy, or throw a toy or treat back: but release before the break when you see he is excited. I think you were focused on your handling so you were taking the extra moment to get to where you wanted to be, get ready, then release – turned out to be too much for a pumped up 1 year old dog. So be super connected and release or reward before you think he will break 🙂
The first rep of the running rewards was a little wild indeed 🙂 But I agree with your choice to keep running then reward. He did pick up the last jump nicely, so it was rewardable. The bar down at 2 was a slightly late/disconnected turn cue and then he made a young dog mistake of blasting past the tunnel. I think both of you were a little pumped up LOL! The 2nd rep was great: just as fast, but you were more connected and earlier, which helped him find the lines. Yay! Really nice.On the bending – moving the outer jumps in closer was the right choice. Also, the 2 outer jumps were a bit too high – the middle jump can go to 10″ if he is able to bounce these – but the outer jumps stay at 4 or 6 for a while. The middle jump does eventually get tall but the outer jumps always stay super lower to help the go step into the bounce.
>>Any idea what I might be doing to cause this?
Could be that he, at the moment, is a little better to the right than to the left. Also, there was a difference in your movement – on the left turns, you were stopping more and facing straight more while on the right turns, you were continuing to move through them. So keep moving through the bending, that helps! You can also try with a toy as a reward, it might be more exciting. Also, if he goes around a jump – try not to mark it, just keep moving and send him back through it in a fluid motion – the marking it can deflate him a bit which we don’t want. But I think the main things will be lower outer bars and staying in motion on the bend on both sides.
Nice work! Fingers crossed that you get some dry weather!!
Tracy
Hi –
>>What is your take on the 10″ jump height for him? Should I only do random jumps at 10″ and some at 8″ or continue to shift more towards 10″. I felt like he had the skills for those tunnel FC drills to be able to handle the 10″…perhaps that affected his commitment?Having to look at the commitment and the 10″ height might have been contributing to him coming off the line, it is hard to tell, but yes definitely keep the harder stuff at 8 while the easy stuff can go to 10. So harder stuff is anything where a newer concept and handling is being put into play can stay at 8 for the first session or two. And separately – show him a 10 inch bar on one jump exercises then 2 jumps before trying it in sequences.
And yes, his sends were great!!!
T
Hi! The first 2 reps of just the grid looked really good – I was glad to see you added the wing, she was ready for the challenge! She came smokin’ into the grid the first time after the wing wrap, and did a great job of balancing herself and not losing control with all of the speed. I think she was surprised on that first one LOL! But then the other reps looked great – she was balanced going into the grid, tight, and got better on each rep. She hopped a little on the last jump at :25 but then smoothed it out after that and the last rep was my favorite so far! Very nice!!! And great job adding the verbals.
Question – how old is she now? 10 months soon? I scrolled around trying to find it and I must have scrolled right past… I ask because if she is 10 months in June, we can look at the set point from MP 3 and add a little bit of height into it. No rush at all, I just figure we can look at adding a bit of challenge to the easy grids.Great job!
TracyHi!
Nice job breaking this down for her – serps are HARD running lines for the dog. Part of it is teaching her what serps are all about (and your breaking it down and placement of reward was very helpful!) And part of it is handler tweaking: On the ones where she did not get the line, you were turning your shoulders forward and stepping in a bit. So, keep your shoulders “open” until she turns to the middle jump and move along a parallel path like you were doing when you were breaking it down for her. Try not to turn your shoulders forward or indicate the jump with an arm or motion – the open shoulders (arm back) and parallel running line will be the cues she needs. That open shoulder and parallel running path is what indicates the 2nd jump – if you turn your shoulders or converge towards 2 to indicate it, you will get the backside.
When you went to 3 jumps at 2:50 – first rep was really good, just keep your shoulders open to her and eyes on her when she lands from jump 2 (the serp jump here).
On the 2nd rep at 2:59, you converged into her so she pinged away to the backside of jump 3.
On the last rep, you stayed further from the line and that helped her for sure!Having the lotus ball on her path is helpful for breaking it down and makes for lots of reward (which is always a great thing :)) The other way you can break it down is to slightly angle the jumps so that she is always looking at the front side and the backside is harder to get to – but I also suggest a leash or something on the ground to make out your running line, so you run a parallel path and your upper body just stays open. If you step in towards a jump. you will cross over the leash and feel/see it immediately 🙂
Nice work!!!
Tracy
