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Hi –
Yes, the software reaches a point where there it has trouble processing a lot of video in a thread so it might struggle to load especially with Apple devices. Starting a new thread will solve the issue.Looking at the parallel path:
>She is still going by the wing a fair amount. >
She did really well and had a lot of success! Her questions were mainly at the start of each session, like at the beginning where you came in and just started so she missed a couple of times because she was just following you. Be sure to engage and play a bit before starting the session, to get her into training mode. And if she goes past the jump, don’t reset her – just keep walking then turn and go back the other way so she has another shot to find the jump. Once she got rolling, she did really well.
The other thing that will help is making the reward easier to find. The difficulty finding it interrupted the flow and probably interrupted the chain of thought (and unravelling the line did too at one point). So let’s look at options to get the reward delivery cleaner which will clean up the whole process:
– you can use big huge obvious rewards, like big chunks of white cheese. You won’t be able to do as many reps because of the bigger chunks, but they will be high quality reps 🙂
– you can put large mats or towels on each side of the jump for tossing the treat onto. That way she can find it easily and get right back into the next rep
– you can teach her about a lotus ball or treat hugger. She definitely won’t miss it in the grass, but she might think it is very fun and grab it LOL!Having you stay closer and not moving as fast definitely helps too, we can add more speed and distance soon enough.
>I’m not sure I should even try the threadle or backside stuff yet as the front side doesn’t have a ton of value yet. Let me know if that’s reasonable.
>I think she has done well with the serp, so you can do the threadle because it has rewards for the jump but from the other side of it. For the backsides, give the parallel path 1 or 2 more sessions then we can add the backsides.
Great job adding standing for the fold it in cone game! She definitely likes the new toy!! And she did a great job going past the toy. Yes, she had one error but we actually need that one error! It is an important piece of clarifying what we want (around the cone) and not just go to the toy. She did really well when the toy ended up back in the same spot where she had the error and was successful twice! Super! She was thinking a whole lot there, good girl 🙂
You can try it with a cookie in a food bowl too 🙂 and in a separate session, work the other side.
Great job!
TracyHi!
>We both had to figure things out and it felt like we were successful. Yeah us!!>
Exactly! It was great!
The tight turns also went really well – she was doing a great job with her turns and your timing was good!
> I’m not sure if my mechanics are right as once I got out there I couldn’t remember which hand when.>
Yes, your mechanics worked really well. You had her lined up at your side then sent her and turned her with the same hand (rewarded with the other). It feels weird at first but she read it really well!
>Some turns are a bit wide, most likely due to the position of my hand. >
That leads to my only suggestion: having your hand a little lower, more at her nose level, and right in front of her. When you did that, she was nice and tight (like on the rep at :44-:47, super nice!!) When your hand was too high or too far, she was wider – so you can either lean over or sit in a chair to get your hand nice and low.
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning! Glad you had some lovely weather!
Verbals only: She is overall doing really well – but note how she would generally get the first rep incorrect then figure out based on the feedback on that first rep… until you changed something then she was incorrect on that first rep of the new thing again. That was because she was moving on the first bit of sound but not really processing the actual verbal.
To help her process the verbal and get that important first rep correct, hold her as you start saying the verbals so she hears the verbal 3 or 4 times before moving. Without that, she is likely to go to whatever she is looking at because she was not processing the verbal – then if she doesn’t get rewarded, will guess the other option on the next rep because she is smart like that LOL
And if you cue the jump and she does a backside, you can reward backsides instead of fronts for now because it is not the tunnel 🙂 We will hone it to the point where she can discriminate back versus front.
When you added the handling :very nice! The line of motion was similar and you were really good about not showing a lot of connection. She was very successful! You were more connected when you added more motion (especially to the tunnel) and she did really well. So the next stage would be to diminish connection as you are also moving fast.
I don’t know why she took the a-frame on one rep other than it was right there and she was guessing because it hand’t been used yet.
Maybe your line had slight convergence towards it so she pushed out? But there was really no a-frame cue so it was a definite “you’re clever but no reward” moment 🙂When you added the backside slice towards the end – she went to the backside (yay!) but ran past the jump so for now, get all of the rewards for that on the landing side of the jump and not out past the jump.
Great job!!
TracyHi! Yay PICK!!!! What a good boy!!!!! Super fast, paying attention, and did a good job with the footing.
>Ideally, there’s zero visiting of course, but is this realistic for a dog working through dealing with all that arousal?>
Yes, this is realistic, and we can get it. More below 🙂
>I didn’t even stop to reward (which I actually find sometimes breaks the flow and can actually tip him over to being overaroused and needing to visit, so the toy is mostly a back up plan to help refocus him if needed).>
I have certainly seen plenty of dogs find that stopping to reward a weird thing – they are in the work flow. It begs the questions: Is the toy play actually a reward in that moment? Or is the toy more of a context cue that reward will be available at the end? Might be a context cue.
So if I feel a dog *needs* a toy reward in the ring, we might create a sequence that appears to have an ending, handling it like it is the end, reward – then set up the next sequence like it is the beginning of a ‘new’ course. The dogs are happy with that.He did really well in the NFC run with all the distractions in the environment: music, leash runner walking behind you (he indicated he was aware of that), people in the ring, etc.
>. On the actual run, no visiting even with the judge doing a running commentary as we ran past him>
Was that someone saying “nice” etc? Probably not a helpful things for NFC dogs who are often learning to NOT be distracted in that environment LOL especially since those words are often paired with rewards. But Pick was a star and ignored it – note that he had the context cue of the toy on course with you, visible in your hand.
>so I let him take the off course and I don’t think he ever knew.>
I agree, I only kinda sorta know where the off course was 🙂 It was a lovely run!
Real run: Good job!!
>Tried to give him some extra time setting up due to a sneezing fit>
He might sneeze as part of his coping with stress at the line (all dogs cope in one way with the stress activation at the line). He did it at the start of his NFC run too.
Since this was a real run, the toy stayed with the leash.
He did BRILLIANTLY. So proud of him! Lovely connected, aggressive handling from you 🙂
He had the off course towards the end, and it was handler blooper:
At 2:03 when he was approaching the jump before it – you did say GO as you were facing the off course jump and had a lot of forward motion. The RC info was late – yes, there was a visual of a ring crew person there which might have contributed to him not being able to fix it before the off course, but the cue to take that jump did happen at the time he would be making of the decision of where to go next. Good job continuing! He was a good boy!!
He did have a ring crew visit in this run. Nothing major and he came right back, but it brings us back to this question:
>>Ideally, there’s zero visiting of course, but is this realistic for a dog working through dealing with all that arousal?>
I think the big leap from NFC toy in hand (what I call Step 1: Just Like Home) from For Real (toy with leash) was too big and the context cue of the toy in your hand needs to be faded more gradually and systematically. No worries, we start that with this week’s games 🙂 If we fade the toy in your hand systematically in training and at trials – he will not visit ring crew and you will get runs that look like the NFC run, except they will be for real 🙂
>But where do I draw the line and say he just isn’t trial ready, that he’s just rehearsing what I don’t want?>
I don’t think it is black and white like that. We can be more systematic to teach him not to visit.
>Is rewarding him running past the ring crew even worthwhile since it seems to actually INCREASE the chances that he checks out and goes visiting? >
It depends on when/where the reward is happening exactly, and if the reward is actually a reward (see above) – but yes, it might actually enhance the ring crew making them more obvious to him. And it might shift his arousal state/attentional state to where he has lost the flow and suddenly doesn’t know what to do.
>Rewarding him for running past ring crew also just feels off since I get the feeling that the visiting isn’t even about the people, and it’s just coping with the arousal.>
This is also not black and white, and we don’t really know which it is Probably an element of both, rooted in the amygdala’s F responses to activation: some dogs zoom (flight) some dogs get reactive (fight), some dogs get frozen (freeze), some dogs scratch or sniff (fidget) and some dogs visit (fawn). His response is to fawn so it is probably part reflexive response (dammit, amygdala!) and part coping. He might not even really enjoy people, but he is wired to have a fawning response. But all that is good to know because we can work through that!
Great job here!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Hope you don’t mind that I post some questions about both?>
Perfectly fine!
I am really happy with what she did here, what a good girlie!
>She unfortunately had a bad crash that I think basically gets chalked up to baby dog doing baby dog things.>
It was the footing 🙁
She was already having to move differently on it to avoid falling, but then couldn’t adjust to save herself on that big crash. Earlier in her run, you can see her running ‘short’ to keep herself balanced on the lines that had the gentle curves and you can see her ‘hoisting’ her hind end over the jumps because she was not able to properly push off.>This facility has turf that really doesn’t agree with some dogs >
Yeah, she says it doesn’t agree with her! What she was doing is exactly what I see similar dogs doing when the footing is too slippery for them (including my BW and my Whippets, both of whom no longer run on this type of turf – my small girl dogs just slow way down, which is also not desirable). I’ve never even tried it with the adolescent Whippet x Malinois, because that would be a train wreck for sure. He wears a strip of rubber on his flyball wraps for grip, so he would need that too on the turf.
So ideally, avoid this turf at all costs especially early in her career. She is going to have to adjust and run short and not use herself correctly – which I believe contributes to injuries (I am suer your knowledge is greater than mine in that regard).
If you do have to put her on the turf, do short stuff where there is not a ton of speed but more importantly: wrap her with powerflex to give her more traction. This is happily allowed in UKI! Even doing short sequences will cause her to have to compensate her striding.
And I actually have a video of how to do it for agility, made for people running fast dogs on this type of turf – those dogs were slipping and also shredding their feet. The wraps helped immensely! When I used to run on this turf, I would wrap the faster dogs with powerflex and sometimes with Elastikon too. I stopped running on this type of turf when my BW, even wrapped, was having to run short to make turns, then slipped on takeoff to a jump and smacked his toes hard enough on the bar that he started limping. The last thing we need with whippety dogs are toe issues!
When people ask why I don’t run on that turf anymore, I just say the dogs are too fast, center of gravity too high, and cannot grip the turf. No one argues, having seen how fast they go LOL!!
>Dogs mostly wait outside the room and just the on deck dog comes in to be next to go. Started as a COVID rule and while it’s not a rule any more, it’s sort of the culture here now. With really no time to acclimate, I was happy with how she came in the ring>
That is a little weird in this day and age, but she was marvelous! Very focused and engaged, but didn’t seem overaroused or concerned about the environment at all. Happy dance!!!
>I was happy with how she came in the ring and the course was well set up to not need a lead out, though I think with a lead out, I could have been out of her way better and #3 wouldn’t have come down. >
Possibly! But she had a nice turn on 1 and your blind was lovely! And also – I think we will do some work showing her what she needs to know about the jump before a tunnel. That is the one spot so far that we are seeing questions (bars or running by). More on that below.
>Very happy with how she handled those soft turns, really working hard to find the right jump.>
Yes for sure, especially because she was also processing mechanics and having to really adjust. She went past the jump at :45 as she was adjusting and she needed more connection to shift to her left to get the jump – and you did that brilliantly at 1:06. Super!
>She did run past the blue jump on that back line along the wall. This was my main hesitation about giving her big extension lines off the bat, that she just doesn’t have the experience to “find” the jump on a line like that and it’s a habit I’d rather not get her into- defaulting to just going around the thing (although given what happened next, maybe aborting mission SHOULD be her default for an ambiguous approach!)>
No worries about that, I think it falls into the ‘jump before tunnel’ questions category. You can set up a speed circle or similar wide open novicey sequence (I can draw one up for you) and we can look at teaching her how to find the jump before the tunnel at high speed (by using an accelerated lazy game concept) as well as dialing back motion/amping up connection to help her keep the bar up even when you are yelling TUNNEL TUNNEL TUNNEL hahaha 2 approaches to help her out – then it will be no problem at all 🙂
>Then that last line, I wanted to try to layer those jumps>
She did well with the layer!
> Unfortunately her line was wonky between those two jumps, more like a v set and she locked on to the wrong tunnel. I think she felt pressure from the line I was running, lost focus on what she was doing and wound up wiping out a stride before the tunnel, slamming into the side of the tunnel and literally somersaulting through the tunnel. >
Maybe the line was a little wonky, but nothing happened with the line or your handling that was so crazy that should have resulted in a crash like that. It is the footing. I was panicking and I already knew how it ended! Poor girlie!!! I am glad she is OK!! But it is stuff like this that has made me swear off turf like this. If the boys are OK with the footing, you can enter her and do controlled things like lead out rewards, or contact stuff perhaps – but definitely not weaves or anything fast so she doesn’t slip or crash.
I will go draw up a jump-before-tunnel game for her and if the weather is OK today, I might even bring out a dog to run it!
Tracy
Good morning!
>y i needed about 3 extra hands in this exercise, my brain, hand, mouth coordination was lacking. >
Yes, 53 hands needed for this game! But he did really well coming to the target and your reward placement was strong too!
>Also the video is a bit long because I accidentally set the timer to 5 mins.>
As he grows up more, a 5 minute session sometimes is not a bad thing – this one had a good mix of food and toys, and it looks like he was happy the whole time without getting tired.
Starting from the stay: he is holding the stay well! Try not to release and move your target hand into position at the same time, because that will make the target hand movement become the release. So put the hand in position, take a breath, then either release or throw a reward back to him.
On the cookie toss start, you can put yourself in position before tossing the treat which should make it a little easier for you to not need a few extra hands 🙂
He also did well going to the toy reward even with all the cookies!
>My brain also mixed up some of the strike a pose 3 video and i said close for a few reps.>
Yes – save close for the threadle slices. The serp release can be his regular release from a stay.
The next step would be to have the toy (or an empty food bowl) on t he ground so you don’t have move at all to get him to go to it.
Since he did really well here, you can try the threadles too!
Great job!
TracyHi!
He did a great job here!He did have a question about “get what” at the beginning when you wanted him to grab the toy but your hand was in the cookie pocket (I don’t think he called you a bitch, though hahahaha)
He did really well with his pivoting here! I see what you mean about him being a little stronger going clockwise – it might be a stronger side for sure, but also it might be that he needed a little more room on that side. He was pivoting pretty well that side but wasn’t getting his front feet up on the perch as well as he was on the other side. So on the harder side, you can deliver the treats a little closer to you so he has to step up onto the perch to get them. That should help him pivot and put his front feet on the perch.
Since this went really well, you can try this in a slightly bigger space and add one low thing taped to the ground for him to step over.
Nice work!
TracyHi!
It is great to have new people & dogs in his home base! He had the experience of a dog barking in the background which is probably new in terms of distraction at FF. And he was definitely aware of Christine with the camera and it is no biggie that he went to say hi for a moment. He came right back and was really a very focused, engaged pup!He disengaged from the tug at the beginning and went to the pile – I think what caused it was you were tugging pretty close to the pile (and the pile is an interesting visual!). Then at :29 you were wanting him to tug… but you turned and stepped to the pile so he read it as a ‘offer behavior’ cue. Good job going with it, he was being good!
Doing a relatively simple shpile was also good – he had to sort out his mechanics with external distractions plus some arousal from tugging, and he did great! There was a lot happening 🙂 I noticed he was very careful with his feet on the pile which is a lot better than flinging himself all around. Good boy!!!
Keep revisiting this as he grows, so he can keep working mechanics in higher arousal & with distractions. And you can switch up the pile by making it less predictable and having more parts of it moving a bit.
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
Threadles are going well!! She is coming in to the threadle side pretty easily – as you add the harder angles, you can look at your threadle hand and even shake it to help her see it better. Then keep the threadle arm out and extended as you throw the reward, so she doesn’t get used to seeing your shoulders turn towards the bar -we want her to go find the jump by herself and without any shoulder turn. I bet you can add your threadle slice verbal too!>but not a lot of success tugging.>
The video cut at 1:15 just as the tugging started – you can leave it in so we can see why she didn’t want to tug. It might be that she is teething, or hormones, or was too close to cookie smells, or the toy was not crazy enough, or all of the above or none of the above LOL!! So leave the tugging in and we can see if it helps us figure out why she didn’t want to tug.
Backing up – she definitely has the idea that is it all about back feet on the mat! She didn’t want to pull off it even when you lured her LOL!! You were able to get lots of nice stepping back to the mat – SUPER NICE!!!
If she backs up into a down, reward by tossing the treat behind her so she has to get up to get it… then she will think that it is silly to go into a down because she will have to stand up again LOL!
How does she feel about things like wobble boards? The next step is to have her back up onto something that is angled a little, so you can put the mat over a board that is leaning up on something (very low angle, nothing dramatic). Then we get her to back up onto things that wobble a bit. If she is cool with the wobble board, this will be easy. So be sure to get her walking around on things that move a little (like the shpile game :)) and see how she feels about it all.
Great job!
TracyGood morning! This is HILARIOUS!!! Little Carly definitely loves to work work work!
>Just when she frustrates me with her anticipation, she amazes me in other ways.>
Yes, there will be times where you will find her drive to work a little annoying LOL!! But keep in mind – she is basically the high achieving A+ student in school who always has her homework done way in advance and asks for more homework LOL!! It will all turn out well.
The only thing to consider with a dog that loves the game so much is to start end-of-work routines immediately. At the end of each session, put her back on leash and give her massive rewards for coming back to the leash. Then sometimes be finished with the training, and sometimes surprise her and do more training (big reward for her!). The goal is that she always come back to the leash when you ask and especially when she thinks work is “done” -that way she will never play any keep-away at the end of a session or a run.Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
Thanks for posting this video, it is very insightful (especially with coffee in my blood right now LOL!!). Lots of good mechanics here from you!!!
I think her main question is how to ignore the toy (and later in the session, the bowl even though it was empty) in favor of doing the barrel wrap. She was better going to her right for sure, but even to the right her thought bubble seemed to be “how do I ignore the toy & bowl?!?! How do I get that toy?!?!?”
I think you worked through it really well and there were BIG lightbulb moments in the last part of the session!!! SUPER!!!!! The last few reps are what we want the behavior to look like!!! Click/treat for you and Jazz 🙂
So two ideas for you to keep things going the way you had them at the end of the session and also teach her that ignoring the toy/bowl is a good thing:
– Using the rocking horse setup, keep the empty bowl down there for the left turns. But, do the cues/barrel sends with empty hands (no toy, no treats). That way we can let her see that going to the barrel is what makes you bring the toy out without the added challenge of her having to ignore the toy in your hand. Yes, it means the toy might come out a tiny bit late but that is OK! It does not need to be a precision reward – you can mark and then whip it out to play– Separately from the rocking horses, you can revisit the fold it in game with forward focus at the cone with the toy or bowl. I am pretty sure you did the first part of this and she did great! But I don’t think we even did the advanced level, where the toy/bowl has moved all the way around the cone… and she actually has to pass it to get to the cone to wrap. She was very young at the time and there were a zillion other games, so moving past the advanced level was fine. And we can come back to it now – this is what she needs now, to help her understand that ignoring the toy/bowl is the way to go 🙂 The game I am talking about is here:
>I’ve been using her wrap cue to send out of the line up (right=wrap; left=lala). Sometimes she doesn’t release on that. should I be using break and then the cue (not my preference) or just hold my position until she releases?>
I think those frozen moments were not a release question about the verbal… I think it was a “omg the bowl what do I do” moment LOL!! She was facing the barrel but her brain was really thinking about the bowl behind her… so she was frozen in time. I bet with more exposure and understanding of ignoring the toy & bowl, she will start moving on the wrap cue with no problem.
>I borrowed an upright from a friend so hope to play with the tight turn exercise later today. >
Perfect! I know she can turn really well, so this game might end up being about ignoring the treats in your hand in order to turn away and wrap the upright. Let me know how it goes!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Still having issues posting and reading others.>
It sounds like it is a setting on your phone or on your internet app – if it is Safari, you can try adding Chrome? On my Apple devices, Safari can sometimes be nitpicky about interacting with other servers and software. But Chrome is very reliable!
She is doing well finding the backside of the barrel! Great job with your rewards and verbal! She really loved the toy and was not quick to drop it (especially on the 2nd video). You will get a quicker drop if you keep your hands lower, with both on the toy and one on each side of her mouth so her lower jaw is parallel to the ground. That naturally stops the tugging and she will let go a lot more easily.
The one thing to add Is your motion of walking up the line: release her while you are still moving and before you get to the barrel, because motion and connection are a big part of the cue here. That will let her see the cue before you even release her. When you were stationary, she had to look at you to see what the line was. Adding your motion will also allow you to show the cue while being further away from the entry barrel – your line can have you moving to the center of the bar but the connection and parallel line of motion will support the cue to the backside.
Parallel path: The first few reps where you were stationary looked great!
When you wanted her to NOT get out, you can give her more room and an indication that it is good to stay with you. And reward her for staying with you even as you are heading back to reset for the next rep: at 1:04 – 1:07, she was perfect about sticking with you but did not get a reward So don’t ignore those moments 🙂 – that might be why she went to the prop right after it, because sticking with you didn’t get a reward.
So to help her see the difference, a couple of things to try:
– be a little ahead of her (start her from a stay or cookie toss) so as she starts moving up the line she is either seeing the ‘get out’ cue or she is seeing you being connected to her and even using a hand cue at your side to help her travel with you and not to the prop
– be a little further away from the prop, so it is easier to move with you and the get out will have more distance to it. If you are too close, the prop might look like it is on her line so she goes to it (which would be correct). But if the prop is further away and definitely not on her line, she should be able to read the different cues.Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning!
She did really well here!
Super excellent forward focus to the line around the cone, lovely job bringing the toy all the way back around! That is not required but it is a nice bonus 🙂 And you also did a good job moving the toy to a slightly new spot each timeThe only thing you didn’t need to do was change sides: with the goal being that the toy keeps moving until she has to pass it to get to the cone, you can keep going on the original side with the concept and keep the toy moving around in that session, til the toy gets all the way around the cone.
The side change is where she had a question (tried to go back to the original side, which is valid) and also it keeps the game too easy for too long 🙂 So you can do all dog-on-left in one session, then all dog-on-right in a different session.
>As you move the toy further around the cone what release word are you using? Get it could mean go directly to the toy. Would I start adding the wrap cue and then say get it once she’s rounded the cone? >
It depends on the pup’s understanding of the line: most pups will stay on their line around the cone to get the toy, because that is what they’ve learned about the concept rather than stop working and go directly to the toy. And that is a good thing for them to know: stay on your line after the marker to get to the reward, rather than cut in to dive on it. She is already showing the understanding of staying on the line. If you say ‘get it’ and she cuts in without wrapping to get the toy – you can still play with her but delay the ‘get it’ on the next rep:
As the toy gets closer and closer to her so she has to pass it, you can delay the ‘get it’ until she has committed to the cone by moving forward to it or arrives at it. The actual release here is when you take your hands off of the hold – so you can be quiet after you do that until it is time to say ‘get it’.
You can also use a wrap verbal if you like – it is a wrap so adding the verbal is perfectly fine! The order of festivities would be something like: you hold her, the toy gets placed, you indicate forward focus, she looks at the cone, you start the wrap cue and let go of her. And when she has passed the toy and is going to the cone, you can say get it.
On the radar for this game is getting you standing up, so you will want to tie the cool new toy to a line so it is easier to wrangle and we can repeat the process with you standing – which will make for an easier transfer to a barrel for the other games.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
This is probably the hardest game in week 1 and he did GREAT!Getting the verbal Over on one jump – perfect, he seemed to have no questions (and I love your payday marker :))
Getting the Tunnel on the verbal only went great too – what was he looking at off to the right side? It seemed like he was looking at something else, but he still got it right 🙂
Jump versus tunnel – he was great here! This is a really hard game!!!
Nice long tug sessions as rewards – that is huge because we really want him to enjoy the game. And your resets were good too – keeps him in the game while also communicating that something was not quite correct about his previous answer.
He had a question early on about jump or tunnel, but then he was a super good boy to find the jump when you asked for it again – that tunnel is delicious and you can see it almost magnetically drew him out to it before he got on the line to the jump.
You caught yourself with the verbal inflection being too soft for the tunnel –
At 2:31, you wanted the tunnel but the verbal was soooo quiet that he thought it was the jump cue.
Compare to how you said it at :51 at the start of this section (big and loud).
You fixed it on the next rep, followed by a quieter ‘over’ cue then the louder ‘TUNNEL’ and he nailed all of those.
It is an interesting illustration of how I think the dogs are processing more than just the word – the energy, volume, pitch all come into play!Great job here!!! Onwards to the handling games!
Tracy
