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Good morning!
This went really well, especially considering there is a new wrap verbal!
On the first wrap, you turned towards the tunnel (post turn) which supported the line to the tunnel. After that, you did not turn to the tunnel during the wrap cue, so he got it perfectly! Then when he realized what the game was about, he didn’t need as much help with physical cues.
When you added back the tunnel, it took him a moment to realize that the tunnel was in play but then he got it nicely, even when you weren’t moving to it a lot – SUPER! He was really beginning to isolate the verbal by the end and find the tunnel versus the wrap. GOOD BOY! The goal is that eventually you don’t have to move at all 🙂 And you can also try the advanced levels where he does mini sequences of this 🙂
Great job here too!
TracyGood morning!
The set point is going well – he was bouncing properly on all the reps except 1. I think on the trotting rep, he is either unsure of the release (maybe because you are stationary?) or waiting for the MM beep? Either way, the other reps went well so when you play this game again, you can use the moving target/dragging toy 🙂 His stay looks great so he is ready for more challenge.
He definitely likes the toy as part of the wind in your hair game 🙂 I think he is waiting for you to throw it before looking for the jump, so we can get him driving to the jump more:
When he exits the wing wrap, say go immediately and several times (be connected) and when he looks at the jump, then throw the toy. Adding more distance between the wing and the jump will let you see more of where he is looking and get him driving ahead of you.
>For the smiley face game if I use wings how far apart should they be? Can I start closer just to get the mechanics?>
You can start pretty close for now, to get the mechanics and also because of the boot! So the wings can be maybe 5 or 6 apart (or closer if that ends up being too hard). Then as he learns the game, you can spread them out more and more.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
The set point is going really well! Leading out to the TnT was easy for her! Good job adding the toy/food bowl more, getting it gradually lower to the ground. Keep building in lots of reward back to her when it gets to the ground, so she doesn’t anticipate the release coming when it gets to the ground.
The distance here between the 2 jumps looked a tiny bit too big – do you remember what the distance was? She might need it half a foot shorter for now.
>We started at step 1 with “Wind in your hair” with a ball in my hand. That was SO FUN. It feels like real agility teamwork >
Yes, it is super fun! She did great! And you were able to add plenty of distance between the wing and the jump.
Since this went so well, you can definitely move up the timing of the ‘chase’ marker and toy throw: rather than wait for her to get near or over the jump, you can mark & throw the instant you see her look forward to the jump. That will get even more acceleration ahead of you.As you build up the GO verbal, make it louder and repeat it: GO GO GO 🙂 That will be more of what it sounds like on course, so we teach her to maintain her coordination even with loud exciting verbals. And you can add more speed to your motion as well!
>She’s CHONKY right now. >
The toy-based games will work it off of her 🙂 She is doing great!
Nice work here!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I really like that Skizzle can sometimes work for kibble at home, despite it’s downsides – takes a long time to chew and isn’t always motivating for him.>
I think of it as the value needs to match the challenge, as best as possible. I use kibble at home for plenty of stuff, especially indoors. And lower value non-kibble treats at home… then the environment indicates which value treat comes out when we are in different places. For my 2 year old dog, maybe cheese in a calmer agility environment. And meatballs or chicken in harder agility environments and definitely flyball which is a crazy environment. And certain toys (like the raccoon toy) only make an appearance in flyball which is the hardest environment for him. So it can be a value scale that balances back and forth based on the environmental challenges.
On the video:
I agree- the blind cross went great! Really nice each time you did it! Super connection there.
And lots of super connection on the sequence as well – for example, :53 though 1:03 was a great example of the connection you were giving him throughout the session and he found those lines beautifully. He is still sensitive to disconnections (like when he missed the tunnel and missed a jump in the session, both due to little disconnections) but overall the connection looks great!
>Nice to know he doesn’t have tunnel-suck – but so sensitive to my movements.>
Yes, it gets easier as the dogs get more experienced, and you won’t have to be as perfect all the time 🙂
About the rear cross:
You’ve got the hardest part of it, which is getting him to drive ahead to the jump AND turn the correct direction. Yay!>if I connected with him so he took the jump after the tunnel (7), he didn’t take the following one (8). >
I think the 8 jump was set slightly to the side so he needed to do a slight lead change to his left to find the jump. You were moving along the line so he stayed on the line, good boy, and you were not far enough ahead to use motion to get him to the jump.
So what you can do is a bit of a ‘get out’ cue! He knows that from previous classes: as he lands from 7, look at him, use your get out verbal, and most importantly: use your opposite arm (right arm here) to point forward to the 8 jump. That should get him to shift away to 8! Let me know how he does with that.
>The video suggests I’m starting to handle hunched over all the time. I think it’s me trying to maintain connection>
I would not have thought your were hunched over until you mentioned it! Yes, it was maintaining connection.
>but I don’t think it’s helping…and it won’t help me move around an agility course better. I’ll try to stand taller.>
I think it is helping! You were very connected here and getting where you needed to be, no problem. If you keep emphasizing connection, you will get him even more committed to lines and then it will be even easier for you to move around the course. So, no worries about standing taller 🙂 And many, many fast small dogs handlers get a little low to show connection and it works out beautifully.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
This went really well and she did great in a hard environment! She quickly figured out that finding your face was fun 🙂 and she got quicker and quicker as the session went along. YAY!
You can throw the search cookie further away – that way you have more time to move away for her to then run to you to find you. On several of the reps, she was so quick to find you that you had barely taken one step away 🙂
Keep playing with this game in different places, and you can even add a jump: having her go over it then you disconnect on purpose – then reward her for finding your face 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>Really liked his sending out to the wrap jump on these. >
Yes, he did really well! And you were easily able to get the backsidey stuff after the tunnel too!
You’ll get more speed from Kaladin if you look at him more on the sends: when you are looking ahead, he is looking at you and waiting a bit to be sure. You can see it as he exits the tunnel at :23, for example – he does go to the jump but he checks in and doesn’t see fully convinced 🙂
If you are further ahead he goes without checking in based on motion, but we don’t want you to have to be several steps past the tunnel exit like at :37.
>then wasn’t connecting with him soon enough when we tried it back the other direction.>
Having the off course jump nearby on the TWs was hard! He needed you to be further ahead for now, to show the line – I think having you further behind showing a conflicting line to the off course, so he checked in with you but was not sure which you wanted.
He did it well when you were further ahead, so you can break it down with an off course jump right there – putting yourself less and less ahead each time so he drives past you to it.
Be sure he sees the arm cues and not just shoulder turns, because I think that is where he was questioning which line it was.On Lift’s video: She had a ton of great work here!
>Started out with great sending to the wraps and apparently she’ll let me get one of those when I’m not very well connected as she exits the tunnel but not a 2nd time.>
Yes, she sent really well to the jump without a lot of connection a long as you were halfway to the jump (first 2 reps). At 1:18, you were maybe a 1/3rd of the way to the jump, so she looked at you and got mad. I think she was going to the jump after barking, but then you stepped back early so she came off it.
On the last run, motion totally supported the jump after the tunnel on each end of the line, so her question was mainly about when you were not moving forward to the jump.
Breaking that down to be able to send from the tunnel exit will help her out a lot – give her big 👀 connection and one step. And as you start it, move the jump in closer so it is relatively easy to get to without you running to it.
And both dogs were great about finding the tunnel after the send, making it easy for you to get way ahead.
Great job!!
Tracy
Hi!
>By the stationing, I did not mean directly outside the ring – we have distance. I’ll have to see what’s what when we get there to see if there is somewhere I can put a cot.>
Having seen how busy a quiet night at OTR can be, I can picture someone letting their dog get very close to Judge being a good boy on a cot. Distance is your friend for the first class(es).
>Can certainly leave the leash on since his breed tendency is to make bad choices that involve going into the pressure of the things he does not want to see.>
Breed tendency plus adolescent brain development… leave the leash on until he gets relaxed enough to not feel the need to go towards things in the environment. It might be very quick! or take a few weeks. Or change every time you go there 🙂
> Is a more realistic plan to enter the ring, do some tricks, play tug, maybe do a 2 bowl pattern (can’t put food on the turf directly) to see what that looks like, do some more tug?>
Yes! Get it all on video and have your instructor help you out with next steps in the moment. And if you leave that turn or class thinking that it was all way too easy… BIG WIN! Yay!
> I do plan to crate him in the car for most of his downtime.>
Perfect!
>The food thing is hard – he has had significant GI issues,>
Poor buddy! And the GI think will absolutely affect behavior. The Brain Camp people just did a really interesting series on Gut Biome and behavior, if you are still looking at ways to balance the GI.
>so he has a selection of treats that work for him and he will happily eat – they are mostly dehydrated raw type foods in a couples of proteins (only one of which is his actual current approved protein)- his diet is pretty tightly restricted by his TCM vet and it is working well to keep his GI in order. >
Can you experiment with other preparations of the existing approved protein and stuff he will eat? Simple stuff like wetting it can a difference, or wetting it then baking it to make it crunchy can also be novel without upsetting the GI.
>If I offer him novel things (even at home), he will not eat them – he will examine them, throw them around, take them to the dog bed, toy with them and then ultimately leave them uneaten (it was pretty funny to watch that with one piece of popcorn). >
If it is a food that is not known to upset his GI system, then we can build value for taking (and enjoying) novel foods.
>Anything like cheese or hot dogs are not possible – he used to like cheese – I suppose I could use a tiny bit and see if I have an intestinal fall out, but I have to be really careful. >
Yes, no need to try anything that can create fallout or any food aversion.
>I do have some special toys that he only sees at agility and really likes. The top toy is his disc however.>
This is good! Does he like fur toys? Some of the pelt-on-a-bungee toys have been outstanding in harder environments.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>At class times there’s a lot going on though. The typical way he starts is stationing on a cot outside the ring to settle in a little after we enter the building. >
Bearing in mind how busy it will be and how many dogs/people will be going in and out of the ring and doors… a cot outside the ring as the first order of business might be way too much of an ask and too hard with all of the activity going past you that you won’t be able to control. Perhaps a cot far from the ring? Or start with a pattern game far from the ring then a cot far from the ring. Start off with success even if you think the ‘ask’ is too easy, because the environment will be so much harder than he has ever experienced (both externally and internally).
>Then we do some pattern games and allow him to make good life choices.>
Help him out with super high value food, and keeping him on leash. As an adolescent, his brain might tell him to approach a person or dog… then alarm bark at them when he gets to them (he did this when you took his leash off immediately at the seminar in June). So, keeping him on leash and not allowing him to go towards something that he might be uncomfortable with being near when he arrives.
>I’d start the same way (stationing, pattern games), >
This might assume a certain quietness outside the ring for the stationing… which won’t be the case at OTR if all the classes are in session. Start further away to really set up success as the first thing so you can both assess the environment. And if it is too easy? Great! Better to be too easy than too hard.
>then enter the ring, ask for a couple of spins, if I have good focus, leash off, party with toy, leash on.>
Depends on the activity level in the area – because of the adolescent approach desires, you might not want to take the leash off, or have him wear 2 leashes and take off 1. The leash off game is great but if it hasn’t been conditioned in that internal and external state/context yet, you will want to start off easy to get lots of success.
>Is there anything else you would recommend for our first night? >
Make the ‘asks’ sooooo easy that they appear too easy 🙂 What you are working on is internal state and context, which is really powerful. Don’t assume that what he can do in different internal states or contexts can be easily transferred, so making things easy will be very useful at first!
And have incredible mind-blow, human-grade food rewards and amazing toys. The environment and context/state might be wildly different, so be prepared with incredible things that will break through the challenges of the environment 🙂
>I feel like I need to start pretty basic with him since he has not been in a group class since puppyhood and the most challenging parts of this will be navigating the building and the fact that there could be dogs running on the other side of the fence.>
Yes, this! And puppy brain is very different than adolescent brain, so have a plan to minimize challenge in what you ask for, because the environment might very well be maximizing challenges.
And make sure he is past any of the pain he was feeling over the weekend – any pain will hijack the bandwidth his brain needs to use in order to deal with the environment.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>all I have is a box fan >
If you are in a shopping mood or can borrow one… a tall fan will be useful so we can split the bird challenge by using a fan to create flapping things above her head. That is likely to tap into the bird response but on a much smaller scale. If you look back at the MaxPup 1 Stealth Self-Control games, we can slice the bird challenge down to help train her brain to cope with it when faced with real birds.
>Also, Sunnie has done “pattern” games in the yard for a while now too 🙂 Basically all I’ve done since I put “agility” skills on the shelf. >
What is the pattern game latency in the yard? Super super quick grab of treat then immediate look back at you, like this (turn down the volume LOL):
Or does she scan the environment before looking back at you? Which rewards are you using for those?
>has our leash walking become operant now ? pulls & then stares when birds are in view whether on the ground, on the fence or in flight- I interrupt & feed?>
To make sure I understand: you are walking her on leash, she pulls/stares at birds, then you feed. Is the pull/stare behavior decreasing and looking at you increasing? Or staying the same? Or pull/stare increasing? That tell us what is going on ‘under the hood’ in terms of learning. If you are interrupting (by showing food?), it is not really operant because there is no antecedent/cue then behavior then reinforcement, it is more of a lure (enhancement of where you want her to look).
> Do I constantly have to not be predictable – don’t walk in a straight line while we are on leash in the yard? >
I think the #1 thing is to try to separate the pairing of the stimuli of the birds from the stare/pull/chase response. That is going to mean a bit of a lifestyle change where in hours where there will be visible birds, the very first thing you do is step outside and pair that moment with a really engaging powerhouse of a reward. Then you can potty, or do some other games with more powerhouse rewards (games that can be done on leash and are relatively simple so she will get those rewards/reinforcement), then back in the house.
Tracy
Good morning!
>I understand now how it doesn’t apply here with the birds. >
I think we can use elements of it, thanks to the super positive conditioned response to it that you’ve already created. It is a tool we will use as we add more tools 🙂
>I understood it as if was giving her good feelings so she would choose this over the birds in time, help her with arousal since that’s what the birds give her a HIGH, but that HIGH is really the chase?! >
Yes – the high that the birds give her comes from multiple sources: genetic wiring, the anticipation of the chase (that is where the conditioned response to the birds comes from) in terms of scanning for the birds, based on learning history in your yard, and then the chase itself (endorphins woohoooooo!)
The dopamine box can be built into some of the games for sure! But by itself, it can’t win out against all of the elements of birds. So we use elements and concepts but don’t rely on it. Plus, there is the issue of her ‘knowing’ what to do when there is no dopamine box present. So other tools need to come into play, and fading the box needs to happen to.
>Maybe the box better used for helping them overcome a “hard” situation like a vet visit or something?>
That is a good use for it if she is comfy with it, because you never have to fade it – it can always be there.
>why we want classical & not operant with the birds.
It is the classical conditioning that is winning against the birds, which is why operant stuff that doesn’t have the same conditioned value is losing out in the face of the birds (but is going great in other contexts).
>it became an operant & the classical part is her running to it, right? >
Yes – there is an element of both happening. There is *always* classical learning going on (whether we like it or not 😂 😆) so it is impossible to separate classical and operant learning.
>I fed her & turned to run back in, but she didn’t move & kept her head in the basket (box)! >
Ha! Too funny. MORE RAW FOOD PLEASE HUMAN! And the high impact food is quite powerful!
One classical element we can use is that the instant she goes out the door into your training area there will be an immediate highly paired thing to ‘do’ – this can be the box, or super bowls, for example. And the targeting stuff takes out hypervigilance (scanning for birds, for example).
>Now if I use a bowl or target discs she won’t do that. >
Probably because she needs more high powered pairing: bowl = raw meat nom nom. The box has mainly been high powered pairing – it didn’t start off with that conditioned response, so it is quite doable for any type of bowl or basket or target. And then eventually any activity.
>Do you think I should ditch the box since that has taught her to keep her head in the box.>
No, I think we can incorporate it! And we will have to get her head out of the box (thinking outside the box, literally haha). So it can even be something like: head in box for reward, do a simple fun thing, back to the box. And then we fade the box as the activity (like hitting a prop) takes on the conditioned value of the box and other stuff.
>I was using the Box next to where the birds are thinking that the box & the feeling it was givign her would override the desire for the birds. >
With the box present and high value rewards, it is possible she will have some ability to ignore birds to some extent, but then she has to hold her head in a box to do that. She will at some point need to move around 🙂 which is why we can incorporate elements of it without relying on her holding her head in the box.
>Is it corrrect in saying that all I created was an operant behavior of keeping head in the box in various situations?>
I think you are seeing both a classically conditioned response, and an operant response as well (operant responses have a huge classical element). But the goal is that she can present operant responses when she can see the birds , when she is moving, and when the box is not present.
> And when I say Box to her & she goes running to it, it’s the running part that is classical (she loves that) & then the operant behaviro is her just keeping her head in the box?>
When you give her an antecedent (cue) like “Box!” her response is operant (behavior followed by a consequence of reward). The reason she responds to the cue in the first place has a classical foundation to it (pairing box with food) and then it is more cognitive and operant when she holds her head there even when she is not eating. So, basically: it is both classical and operant.
>Has zero to do with dealing with birds in my yard?>
It shows the power of classical conditioning! So that is pretty cool. Is running to the box triggered by the presence of the birds? Probably not. And if the box is not there, will she chase birds? If she does not have her head in it and you don’t say box… will she chase? Or if she is chasing and you say box… will she go to the box? I don’t know – and that is where more training is needed. That is why the box is a cool tool, but just one piece of the puzzle.
>We like being outside, but you mentioned above that I shouldn’t do any games outdoors until she is unable to take her eyes off of me indoors? >
Anything asked of her outside should be fully conditioned indoors before putting it into a birdy situation. So the game has a positive conditioned response (rather than seeing if she is accurate with it, it is more about does she froth at the mouth to do it :))
This doesn’t take long with powerful rewards paired into it, though!
>Then what CAN we do in the yard, just go out to potty & come back in? >
You can make every.single.time. you go into the yard into a pairing experience. You want to take her out to potty? As soon as she steps outside the door, you give her an amazing treat. Pairing! She will begin to associate stepping outside with it, and will begin to automatically look at you.
You can also do super bowls: have the bowls or baskets already in a line in the yard, and have great rewards ready then bring her out. Do a lightning round of it (fast and fun) in and out of the yard, then training session over for the moment.
And you can play with the dopamine box, and maybe do a variation where there are multiple boxes: she starts in one box, eats treats. Then you call her and run run run to the next box: eats more treats. And so on. This begins to get her head out of the box and still be able to assess the world around her, but in a way that conditions engagement. This can be on a long line to start so any bird chasing can be stopped.
You can also begin to make the sides of the box smaller/lower: so as she has her head in it, parts of the environment are peripherally visible. Fading the box!
>No, I haven’t done the leash off, engagement ON game, what is that?>
It is a classically conditioned engagement game that quickly turns into operant choices:
>Here is a session from last night of Super Bowls. I have raw in my pouch in a baggie so it didn’t come out fast enough. >
Raw is great! When you take it outside, use rubber gloves so you can handle it more quickly. Speed will be important outside 🙂
I think she really likes Super Bowls! The session went perfectly. It is a great game that combines the conditioned responses to bowls/targets/boxes 🙂 with the operant choice of looking at you. And it has movement, which teenage dogs love 🙂
Before taking it outside, do one more session where you make her WILD (higher arousal state to match what she will be like outside). Then play 🙂 and if her responses are super quick, you can take it outside.
And the outside session should have the mind-blow rewards (do it for her dinner, if her dinner is yummy raw food) and be short and sweet.
Keep me posted! We will get her sorted out!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I need to evict a garter snake, a toad and a wolf spider from my blue tunnel before I bring that into the mix. That sounds like a scary childrens book! Tunnels really attact wildlife.>
At least they are friendly critters! Hopefully a good toad and not a bad toad!
>so I straightend that tunnel, cut up some steak and took Lew out for some fun!>
FUN!! It sounds like he had a blast 🙂
The set point work is going well. Lots of stay rewards!
When you do get to standing near the MM – the next step is to add in praise before you do the catch or the release. He is still anticipating that when you arrive at the MM, he will get the release so there were some broken stay moment.>He was trotting over the second jump towards the end but I was mostly just concentrating on the stay & release. >
I think he was realizing that there was no need to charge to the MM because he had to slow down to get to it anyway. So now you can move to adding the moving target 🙂 As you are dragging the target, you can mix up rewards for the stay and releases over the jump. That will get more jumping behavior.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning! Welcome back!
>I think it got worse as I went because I hadn’t realized that my first rep was actually ok so my attempts to lengthen the box, move the Treat n Train farther out, and raise the jump to 8 inches were actually counterproductive. What I was trying to accomplish was more bounce – not walking through.>
The first rep was indeed spot on 🙂 3rd rep was good too and he had a couple of other good ‘bounces’. I think what was happening was a combination of the Manners Minder causing him to decelerate to it, and then a bit of boredom/fatigue/efficiency from the repetition at the end 🙂 He might have been thinking: why push off and power through, when I am just going to have to stop and eat from the Manners Minder.
But that is an easy fix – the MM is just to introduce the concept, and he did great. So now you can use the moving target reward. A lotus ball on a leash that you drag is perfect for this! If he can do it from a stay without jumps, introduce it in the pre-game over 1 jump – then add it to the set point and see how he feels about it 🙂 You can also use the toy you used the Wind In Your Hair game – he drove it to beautifully! For the set point, you will want it attached to something long so you can drag it.
Wind In Your Hair looked great! He found the jump with no questions. Great job with your verbals!And you were able to add your running at the end. Super!
>Next time I think I can lengthen the distance farther and run with Rusty in all the reps.>
Totally agree! He is ready for more distance and more running. Great job!!
Tracy
Hello and welcome! The video link came through 🙂 She is so cute!!
She did really well here! Her stay looks lovely and she is moving really well. A question: how old is she? She looks young so we will adjust the jump foundation to make sure it is age-appropriate. Using the cavalettis you have here, the poles should be in the lowest setting so she is organizing her feet more than she is actually jumping. And if she is really yung, you can remove the poles entirely and just use a rolled up towel or half a pool noodle 🙂 The distance between the poles are likely to change as she grows, so we will continue to make adjustments. You can set her up very close to the first pole so she is not stepping in before it but rather pushing off fro her rear right away.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>And I can take the time to play before the first obstacle – to make sure we’re ready to start in the first place. >Think of agility as just a series of playing with you and doing tricks 🙂 That way you can get those established because you ask for the more complex tricks known as obstacles. He has had limited experience doing obstacles in new places, so it is super important t make the environment super fun so he is in the arousal state to even recognize obstacles.
>From other sports, my brain has a trial mode which is a bit too process oriented (enter the ring – setup – go).>
Yes – and in human sports, most of us have experienced some sort of mental prep before entering the competition arena. For dog sports, getting the play is the mental prep 🙂
Looking at the video:
>He’s not in much of a hurry to find my face, which probably reflects that this environment is interesting. >
Yes – the latency on the regular pattern game element was a little high (took a little longer) so you can keep playing the regular game until his responses are very quick in that environment. Then you can add find my face. And it might also be an indication of environment versus available reward: if it is a less interesting motivator, he is likely to attend to the environment more. If it is a REALLY interesting motivator, he is more likely to attend to you and the motivator :))
>then into the find my face piece. Initially he’s at my side,>
That is fine to reward.
You can watch for him peripherally: at :13, he did find your face it just happened to be from the side 🙂 He doesn’t have to come all the way in front of you.You can add your movement now, walking around back and forth so he drives in to find your face 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning! Great question!
I personally have not found typical decompressions (snuffle mats or lick mats etc) to be of ANY help with my sighthounds and lurchers. I agree that a great decompression is a run run run moment. And I also cue it (‘go for a run’)
>But I wonder if that isn’t creating a pattern where if they need to decompress, they will do a “victory lap” on course. >
I’ve not ever had it spontaneously happen on course – the trick to it is working the arousal regulation and giving the dog the decompression (‘go for a run’) before the feel the need to take the decompression. So they will continue to ‘work’ until they hear the magic words.
Things that might cause the dog to need to take the decompression without the cued moment are things like frustration or pressure overwhelm. The frustration (overarousal) can come from things like lack of understanding, low rate of success, handlers trying to ‘fix’ things on course (never fix!), etc. And pressure overwhelm can come from being asked to do too much in challenging environments and/or different arousal states/contexts (like trying to run a course in a trial without having worked through the NFC steps thoroughly).
So definitely avoid the dog feeling the frustration or overwhelm in training an trialing, and the victory laps will not be an issue at all 🙂
Tracy
