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Hi!
>>MassChaos Deborah Taylor Holt
Perfect! Great team!!!! Too bad you live so far away or we would snag you for our team!
>>Their board is a little wider – I wasn’t moving but maybe I was further back than I have been before Location was the same but definitely West was more distracted>>
Might be subtle differences? When video taping for flyball, if possible, get 2 videos: one right on the box/wall turn only, and one of the bigger picture to see your handling.
>Ah, I see, I need to think about my handling with the turn more>>
Sometimes we move too early? Or put too much pressure on? So video will tell us that.
>>He has only had the ball on the wall two sessions and he has just sniffed at it or nose touched it, no grabbing yet –
We definitely want the grabbing! Assuming he is picking it up off the ground as part of a retrieve – Before putting it on the board, put it at the base of the board, on the floor, and send him to retrieve it. And if that is fine for one or two reps – put it in on the board but also lower the board, making it as low/flat as possible so he can get on the board and grab the ball. That can help with the ‘aha!’ moment needed to transfer the understanding of grabbing the ball to the board. I will be doing that tonight in team practice so I will get some video (along with other video – it is a new board in a new location so I will probably start with an easier step in the progression)
>>Thank you! A lot of people I know focus on either flyball or agility>>
There are not a lot who do both, except down here in Region 9 where I would say at least 25% of the people who do flyball also do agility. On my team, it is closer to 40 or 50% of us do both.
Looking at the video:
>> noticed a lot of extra turns when I set him up?I’d say he enjoys the Minny Pinny game LOL!! And great job with the reward placement! He was starting without you a bit but no worries, that will go away in the next steps (see below).
You can switch sides after every rep or two – it looked like he was getting dizzy turning to the left (or looking in a mirror/reflection on the right turns LOL!!)
>>(My tight turn words are counter (I have been trying to consistently say it in a short choppy way) and right so for soft turns I am say LA and Rue both more drawn out?>>
I like the way your LA and Rue sounded! You can repeat them a bit in the next step, so it is more like Laaa Laaaaa Laaaa instead of a single La.For the next steps:
Hold his collar (or a harness is fine) so you can say the verbal 2 or 3 times… then let him go to start the MP. That will really help attach the verbal.And I think he is ready for the advanced level where there are bumps as jump bars for him to go over too!
>>Lastly, I have been struggling some with the serp/threadle exercises and (I know this is obvious now that I think about it but it didn’t click at first) I realized with both my older dogs I still do lots of arm changes with both serps and threadles, I have been debating if I should try with West the open shoulder no arm change approach – I think I can teach him the arm changes later if its not working??>>
Excellent point!!! For serps, definitely try it with just the dog-side arm back (no cross arm) because you will be able to move faster. For threadles – there is a lot of debate about threadle arms so my answer is to show him both styles. What I have seen is that the one-arm threadle works GREAT when we are in good position and doing one of those lovely, intuitive European style-threadles. However, the cross arm threadle is VERY useful for when we are doing those American threadles (like the really hard ones in AKC Premier) and/or when we are NOT in great position or behind the dog. The cross arm REALLY helps and is very easy for the dog to see especially on the harder threadles. So, he can learn both – it is pretty easy to show him the arms in different contexts and the dogs learn it really quickly 🙂
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>Add to that her dislike to work ahead of me and commit to obstacles, and we have a recipe for a lot of barking and refusals! Focusing on shifting connection was very helpful, and she read my crosses a lot better than she usually does!>>
The rear cross turn away stuff went really well!! I think the most important thing to do with all of the turn away stuff, general RCs, and general lines is to make sure that all reward is placed out on the line and nowhere near you. The majority of her reinforcement here in this session and on other sessions as well is both near you and curling back in front of you – which is what she offers when things are not super clear in the handling. Her first response is to look at you and come towards you, because of the reward placement history.
So, get all rewards as far away from you as possible 🙂 We don’t want you in the picture at all when associated with where the reward lands, to shift her to focusing on the jump and on the lines. That way if you are not 10,000% connected, it won’t matter because she will stay on her line 🙂 That will help the rear crosses/turn aways too because the bar is associated with the reward, not you 🙂 (Nothing personal hahahaha) And it will help with jumping because she won’t have to split her visual processing as much, she will be looking at the bars a lot more too.
So more specifics on that, in the context of these skills:
For the turn aways/tandems on the front side of the jump: when you were perfect on the shifting connection and foot position, she nailed it every time 🙂 YAY!!! The 2 times you were not entirely perfect were at 2:07 (your feet turned away to the landing line a tiny bit too early) and at 2:57 (the connection shift to your hands was not quite as clear as the other moments). She didn’t take the jump on those, instead curling in to look at you. Sure, I could bug you about being perfect 🙂 but as a fellow agility handler, I know that perfect is impossible to maintain! And the handling got her to literally inches from the jump bar, so it would be good if she would go over the bar if we were not perfect.
So what to change? Reward placement 🙂 On all of the successful rewards, you dropped the reward back on the takeoff side and near you, so as she was getting it she was also coming in close to you and curling to face you. That is the same behavior we get when you aren’t perfect, so it makes sense that is is built from the reward placement. We can be more specific with the reward placement so that when in doubt, she goes and takes the jump: in this context, with you doing the turn away and remaining on the takeoff side, the reward should be thrown to the landing side (and you can throw it really far too so she leaves you by a mile to get it – you will still get tight turns but you’ll also have better commitment). That should encourage her to go over the jump she is near rather than default to coming close to you or curing in front of you.
We can apply the same concept to the straight line balance reps where she had trouble on the jump and on the wing (on one rep)
>>At 2:26, I’m looking at her, and she is making direct eye contact with me and not looking at her path. >>
In this moment, your connection was good but also your dog-side arm was a little closed forward so when you tried to keep turning, she looked up at you and came off the jump. So even though you could see her, she couldn’t really see the connection.
>>At 2:37, I looked a little more ahead, and she did much better. For the later reps, I was looking ahead as well. >>
I don’t think it was looking ahead as much as it was where your arm was when she was making the decision to take the jump or not. At 2:37, the arm was a little further back and she took it. But at 2:19 you were looking ahead (she didn’t take the jump there) and at 2:53 you were looking a little ahead and she didn’t stay on the line to the wing…
>>Is it possible that she is uncomfortable or confused by the eye contact and needs less direct connection, or am I doing something wrong to get this continuous head checking and eye contact back from her?>>
I don’t think your connection is direct enough to pull her off the line (you were not rotated towards her at all or hovering 🙂 ) In theory, she had enough info to commit to the jump on these – each of these moments where she came off the line she was literally inches from the jump or wing when there was perhaps a minor imperfection… She did a little better on the reps where you used verbals, but that might be incidental (but definitely keep using your verbals!)
I think the main thing is placement of reinforcement – the value on the line is created by it and so we need to shift it to the landing side of all the things, so her first impulse is not to get back to you or curl in front of you. And it might feel counterintuitive to throw the reward long and far to the other side of the jumps even on tight turns, but that will really tip the scales in favor of big commitment. Try not to have the reward be within 10 feet of you! If you can bend down and pick it up after she eats the treat because it is near you? It is too close 🙂 And that will allow you to get commitment even if things are not 10000% perfect 🙂
You can see that on the threadle wrap too – she was happy to come in to the threadle side near you each time (yay!) but had trouble turning away to the jump. Ideally, you can ‘flip’ her away with just your hand cue (eventually she won’t even need that) without rotating your feet to the jump! And reward placement gets that. So as you flip her back to the bar, you are on takeoff side and throw the reward 10 feet past her landing spot so she races away to get it after landing.
Let me know if that makes sense! I know you have done stuff like the lazy game in the past, so it should be more of a lifestyle with her 🙂 of no reward anywhere near you, to maintain the ‘look at your lines’ commitment skills.
>>Can you clarify what a circle wrap is? I was getting a bit confused about the difference between that and a threadle wrap.
Both are wraps on the backside of a jump, where the dog enters and exits on the same wing. The difference is that on a backside circle wrap, the dog is on the outside of the handler and crosses in front of her line to get to the backside of a jump (turning towards the handler). On a threadle wrap, the dog is between t he handler and the jump and has to turn away from the handler to get to the backside and keep turning away to get over the bar.
Ideally on both, the handler does *not* turn towards the bar and keeps moving forward the whole time. They are definitely trained skills, not necessarily intuitive skills.The visuals might make more sense:
Backside circle wrap:
Threadle wraps:
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>I don’t use a lot of arms for anything but I’m game to try and train it. I have to watch your videos again but I’m Extreme Connection I’m. It sure where to put my arm- does that sound weird>>
Arms can be useful! For most of agility we try to keep arms out of the way and that is also what you generally do 🙂 But for the more complex cues, arms can be very salient for the dogs to help with the cue. So on the extreme connection cues, I try to point my outside arm to the wing of the jump I want the dog to take. For a ‘get out’, I point to the exit wing. For a backside push, I point to the entry wing (and that is one of the ways the dog knows the difference). With both, the arm (along with the connection) helps me turn my shoulders to the line I want and also the dog is probably thinking “there she goes with that arm again, must be a cue to move away” LOL!
Video 1 looks great – REALLY clear shift to extreme connection on the 2 backside push reps, followed by disconnecting to run forward (good toy throws!) And then she had zero questions on the last rep when you used plain ol’ regular connection to get the front side.
On the 2nd video, it did look like you were exaggerating the cues even more on the less comfortable side, but she looked great on those reps too. One side is generally easier than the other!
What was happening here with your extreme connection was that you had the upper body rotation going the same way as it would with the outside arm being used. So if you can do that connection/rotation comfortably to cue the backside and she reads it really well? No need to the outside arm! The next step would be to add in the wing wrap before the 2 jumps, so you can add more speed into the line.
>>it is imperative the dog know the foundation exercise you are asking of them before putting the demands of the connection on them as well.>>
Yes, and your toy throws were really helping with that!
>>Also, I need to know how to throw a toy>>
You were good!! She was happy to grab the toy and rip it open for what I am guessing was a good cookie in it LOL!! The throws don’t need to be perfect – they just need to be back by the jump and far from you, to basically tell her “don’t look at me as I run away, keep looking at the jump”.
>>Lastly, I had to really think about regular and Exit Connection as well.>>
It all looked good! Being able to disconnect to get where you want to be will give you so much more time to reconnect with the exit line connection, especially after a blind.
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>>Wondering whether to audit or handle her (she is only just over eight months or wait until you put the class on again.>>
I think you might find doing MaxPup 2 more useful than going directly to MaxPup 3 – MP 2 is for dogs her age and we build up all of the foundations that we use in MP 3. That includes adding jumping skills, proofing games, etc. Without those, MaxPup 3 will be much harder. Then when she does the MaxPup 3 games, she will be closer to a year old and that will be perfect for starting contacts, sequences, etc.
>>When are you likely to rerun max 3.
Probably in June!
Tracy
Good morning!
Yes, the high value food was definitely very motivating! You can mix in other things like freeze dried treats that can pick up the smell/flavor of the stuff like liverwurst (literally mush them all together :)) so that you can have different values – we don’t want liverwurst to become low value from using it all the time LOL!She did really well here – especially because of all the noise in the environment. Sounds like there was construction or something? There was a huge horn blast when she landed from the ‘out’ jump at :41 which startled her a bit, then you were a little disconnected/early on the backside push so she came into the gap. She was super good about sticking with the game there: behold the power of liverwurst!
>>On these “outs”, my outside arm seems tepid! I think that the verbal didthe trick.>
You can give a stronger arm, pointing to the out jump, but she did find it really nicely. And good job to you for staying in motion along the line (not stopping and not moving towards the out jump) like at :12 and also at :40.
After the backside push FC, you can give her the wrap cue sooner so she can look forward for it (:17 and :48) The cone was a long distance away, so using big regular connection and the verbal as soon as she lands, she can drive ahead of you to the cone.
For the turn aways, remember to use more of a connection shift to your hands – at :22, she didn’t see the shift so so the pressure of you moving in to the line pushed her off the line (and into the tunnel :))
She got the jump at :36 and :52, so now you can use that connection shift sooner so that she can turn before takeoff, and you won’t need to go as close to the jump 🙂
Great job!!!
TracyGood morning!
>>We did a session of Extreme Connection with the Get Outs today. She was really independent!>
I agree! She rocked it (and so did you)!
>> I was not able to make my body follow directions (even though my brain knew them) and didn’t stay straight for the Get Out sends, but I’ll try another session and put a leash on the ground.>>
I have always found it hard to NOT move towards the get out obstacle because the emphasis of the connection and upper body just draws us all that direction. A line on the ground will totally help, especially when she is on your right (where you seemed to gravitate towards the ‘get out’ wing more). When she was on your left side, you had more independent running lines especially at :31 (that was the most independent one of the session!) and :55 too : )
>>I am finding it is mucho. mucho key with Bazinga for me to switch things up and contrast the reps with something different. She memorizes so quickly!>>
Yes, she is a super quick learner so I can see how after a couple of reps, she would just head to the spot where she thinks you would be cuing her to go to 🙂 Smartie!!! Also, the get out is easy and fun for the dogs so they often get into “get out mode” and it is harder to get them to NOT get out LOL!
She did well with that here. When you didn’t want the get out, she was completely perfect and straight on your right side.
When she was on your left, she drifted a little wider when you were going straight (like at :12) . At first I thought maybe she was scoping out the get out wing but she was looking at you the whole time – so when I re-watched it, it looks like you were a little disconnected there (looking forward and not at her) so she was drifting wide to be able to look up at your face to see the cue. You were more connected on the right side so she did not need to drift out to see more of the info. So definitely have very clear regular connection on the non-get-out reps too 🙂Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>>Can you help me out with what a contact training mat is? Can I just use like a yoga mat cut in half or something similar?
Yes – a cheap yoga mat (we might attach cardboard under it to keep it stable) is perfect!
>>I have a teeter but it’s not competition size. Will that work? I do go to an arena to practice courses but I’m not supposed to move their stuff so I only may sometimes have access to a full teeter.>>
Absolutely!
>>What size travel plank? Is this like a Cato Plank? Can I make one if I don’t want to spend $100 on one? >>
It is about the length of a Cato plank but can be any length. I think mine is 3 feet long and maybe 3 or 4 inches high? And mine is homemade and I think I have had it around since 2004 or something. Cato planks are really nice but you definitely do NOT need to buy one for this class.
>>I’m quickly learning how expensive agility can be so I try to bargain shop if I can.>>
TRUTH! Homemade or borrowed stuff is the way to go especially for foundation stuff because you won’t need it for that long. And the foundation stuff you can purchase is soooooo expensive. There is always a way to do a homemade version of it.
>>What size is the long plank? I’m thinking the plank of my teeter would work for this.>>
I think the teeter plank should be great! We can figure out how to stabilize it so it can simulate a dog walk plank as needed. The goal is that other than a cheap yoga mat from Walmart or something, you won’t need to purchase anything to play the games 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>>For the first UKI trial we are going to the Officiating Judge is Torka Poet and the Course Designer is Marko Mäkelä (Finland). >>
Torka is really nice! A European designer might mean that the courses are a little extra crazy hard LOL!! But they will be FUN!
>>I entered Kashia in Speedstakes just for the experience. I haven’t decided if I’ll do FEO or just go in there and give it a stab. >>
I always recommend young dogs enter FEO with a toy of some sort (you can use the empty lotus ball!) even if the course looks very do-able. The FEO (or NFC for UKI) will help them be super happy in the environment, which is more valuable than running for real at this stage.
>>She’s completed some At Home Speedstakes courses (unofficially since I didn’t enter her) and she did them beautifully and cleanly! Either way, it’s just great exposure for her. >>
Yay!! And I agree, it is great exposure. And it will be wildly different from training so the NFC/FEO option will help ease that transition.
>>It’s funny to me you say this right above the paragraph where you explain several different wrap commands, all by using different noises essentially…..that seems extremely complicated to my novice brain! I know another handler that does the same thing and it blows my mind. >>
You are 10000% correct to call me out on that LOL!! “Let’s keep it simple” followed by “here are the 75,000 different verbals for a wrap” LOL!!!! It cracks me up because it is definitely not simple 🙂 But the most important thing is that it all gets added gradually and over the course of a long period of time, based on priorities. You don’t need to add all the things all at once or you will drive yourself crazy 🙂
Answering the backside question:

>>>So the bar would be on the inside of the last wing, right, between me and the wing? I know that’s a dumb question because if it was on the outside, that wouldn’t be a backside jump.>>Correct! It might be easier to set it up as a full jump so you can choose the backside line in terms of what the entry wing is…. Then take off the exit wing.
>>for as book-smart as I am, you’d be surprised at how much I mess up left and right. Random dyslexia kicks in sometimes. LOL
Left and right are so easy to mess up! You might notice I take a moment before I start the dog in each rep… that is my brain saying “wait, which is left or right??” LOL!! It gets easier with practice for sure 🙂
T
Good morning!
>>While we are working on these different backsides, what is the criteria I should use for raising the jumps to her full height? Most of the things in class, I’ve used 16″, but for these I’ve lowered to 12″. We need to work our way up to her full height of 20″.>>
Great question! I use 2 separate sets of criteria:
– fitness level of the dog. Is the dog a fit, muscular beast? 😁 Then yes, bars can start to move up to full height. The backside jumping is really challenging so the dogs need to be super fit.– specific challenge in the moment: how much speed is coming into it? What environmental distractions are there (home versus class, for example). How easily will I be able to show the handling? If the environment is easy and I can easily show the handling, and there is not a TON of speed coming in… then you can start bringing the bar up bit by bit. But if something is hard? Keep is easy 🙂 Even if it is full height at home, you can lower the bar in new places so she doesn’t have to process full height jumping AND the environment, for example. Another example: all of my dogs start their trial careers a a lower height so they can learn to handle the environment while not also trying to handle full height jumping.
>>PS Should we sign up for Max Pup 3?
I think you will have fun! And the new track I am adding will be great because you can really build up some skills if anything is too simple 🙂
Tracy
Hi! I am glad you enjoyed it!!!
I think my the time MaxPup 3 gets going, you won’t feel as far behind. Plus the contact games and the different levels of handling games (especially the crazy wing games) will be very suitable for baby dogs 🙂 and then you can always go back to get the harder handling games when she is older. Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>This was before dinner and the first time she worked the entire tunnel session for a toy.>>
So exciting to see the reinforcement strategies falling into place! Before dinner means she might have been hungry, but you were easily able to use food and toys here. SUPER!!! Keep slowly building this up like you have done, the results are already so worth it! I mean, the tunnel stuff is great too but the reinforcement strategies are just so valuable.
The tunnel work went well – easy peasy to run through the tunnel 🙂 The threadle turning away was harder, but she did really well. She had serious processing going here, but she was great – no frustration, just solving the puzzle! The only blooper here was caused by her eating something (a bug, for extra protein maybe?) then losing her train of thought while you were lining her up.
You can keep mixing in straight tunnel stuff and the turning away into the threadle will be even easier. And I am sure latent learning will kick in and she will know it more fully in the next session at home. It might show up at Fusion on the weekend, or not because it is a different environment and different tunnel, so you can start off like you did here to ask her brain what it “knows” on Saturday 🙂
>>For the backside slice, should that stay on a barrel and a bump (vs jump wing or wings & a bump) until I get more lateral distance?>
Good question! I think it depends on value: because the barrel might have more value (longer reinforcement history) at the moment, it might be easier to add a new variable like distance using the barrel. And when swapping in a wing instead of a barrel, the first session should be about value building on the wing to transfer the game to the wing-bump setup. Then let her tell you how quickly to proceed – if she says “The wing is easy, mom!” Then you can add lateral distance pretty quickly. If she is more like “what the heck is this wing thing” then you can stick to the easier positions closer to the wing for now. Let me know if that makes sense or if more coffeee is needed 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>I know class isn’t in session now, and you are taking a break>>
We are still going! The forum goes on break on Feb 13 then we gear up for MaxPup 2 🙂
>>Paul is working with Chitlin. He is doing the games I’ve recently done with Kishka. He’s happy with the results. >>
This is so awesome!!!! I love it!!!! Yay for Paul jumping into agility alongside you. SO FUN! And the new training room looks fantastic.
>>I thought it might be tricky to work with Kishka having Chitlin there, but it’s working well. Today she managed to stay in her place (bed on a Klimb) while Paul and Chitlin worked.>>
Wow! Good girl, Kishka!!! And Chitlin is her mom, right? That makes is doubly impressive.
On the video – super nice session here! Most importantly, the placement of reward was spot on with her continuing to turn as she exiting the wings to get the reward. Placement of reward is really a key element for teaching these turns.
She was telling us she was a lefty today on this game LOL!! The left turns seemed a lot easier for her to start. She did get the right turns going well too – but if she is a lefty, it will be easier to start the sessions with the left turns so she gets into the groove of the game. I say “if” she is a lefty because things change day-to-day with teenagers and she might be a righty tomorrow hahaha!
Next steps here:
To be able to get smooth starts to each rep, it will be easier to line her up at your side, facing the Minny Pinny so she doesn’t start with a turn away.And when she is lined up at your side, gently hold her collar (or she can wear a harness) so you can start saying the verbal before she moves… say it 3 or 4 times and then let her go to start moving. That way the verbal is separated from motion and it would be easier for her to truly learn the verbal (rather than just watch the motion).
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>Axel has not had much enthusiasm lately>>
Is this overall or just with toys? If it is overall, you can rule out any pain issues (like a vet check to make sure his joints and soft tissues are all feeling good) or tick diseases issues with a blood test. Medical issues can cause a drop in enthusiasm for sure.
Looking at the video, a couple of thoughts:
I think he does like playing with toys, especially crazy ones that you swing around (the long toy at the end is AWESOME).
I think he does not like collar grab stuff or begin restrained by the collar or moved by the collar. He tolerates it but then when given the option to do it or not… he opts out. We’ve seen this in earlier games and I think we see it again here:
He starts off really into the toys and did well with the game. But it involved being restrained by the collar and moved by the collar. So when you wanted to do a 2nd rep of it, he got a little stressed (1:08) with big scratching/shaking it off. He as not as into the toy after that but he did play the game… and opted out entirely of a 3rd rep. Big sniffing.
The long green toy came out: game on! You told him he could have it (“all yours!”) and then when you tried to re-engage him, he said “no thanks”.
He is MUCH more tolerant of collar grabs than he has been in the past!! But also it is entirely possible that because he doesn’t like the collar holding or being moved by the collar, that it bleeds over into his engagement when he recognizes a context where it is going to happen…. So he avoids it and avoids the pressure of coming in close to you in those moments (like at the end when he didn’t easily bring the toy back).
So what to do about it?
Keep building up the collar grab as a life skill (it is a good safety skill) and pair it with food food food 🙂 But for now, don’t use it in a sports context and definitely not with toys involved.
You can replace the collar grab with a stay (even if it is a stay on a platform) or a cooke toss start or even a short, light leash (two feet long or so, and maybe on a harness so it is easier for you both). For moments when you want to restrain him, the light leash might be far better for him plus it will help you be able to be standing up, which also reduces pressure.
And if you must use a collar grab or restraint for something…. Use mind-blowingly delicious food (rotisserie chicken or steak nom nom!), or do one single rep and then go do something else.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>I think it’s mostly excitement/pay attention to me barking. She does do an alarm bark at times but less so than the high on life chatty barking.>>
High on life chatty barking is great 🙂 Also good to re-direct so she is not talking all the time LOL!
Backside slice video: super nice! And she was great about going back and forth between toy and food in the same session. Super!!
She was strong on all reps – only really looked at you with a question when she was on your left and you were moving more to the center of the bar (but did not have the same question on the next rep). Great job with your connection and line of motion here.
You can add in starting to move up the line before she looks up at you (after cookie eating :)) – that can help her learn to drive past you to the backside.
Also, since her stays are going well, you can use a stay to add the Lala as the release to the backside.I bet she can also be successful when you are moving faster, but it might need to happen in a bigger space where you can start further back so you don’t end up with no place to run to or stopping short when you get to the jump.
Great job!!
Tracy
